Torid Mechanics and Riven Choice

[SeraaM3]

Torid is a weapon that's always confused me on the ideal way to build it and after taking a long break and coming back to the game to find rivens having been added, I'm no closer to understanding this weapon. I have two rivens with different stats and both seem to have similar stopping power on 145 bombards and heavy gunners. I'm more concerned with higher level enemies that the simulacrum can't produce. Is the higher damage going to help more or would the added status procs? Also, should I be using 60/60 mods for higher levels to strip armor faster or the 90% mods for added base? Should I be using Argon Scope with the Critacan since it constantly re-procs the extra crit chance?

If someone is able to provide some clarity to cloud weapons (I assume Pox would function similarly, too) I would be most appreciative.

Spoiler

Spoiler

Builder says my top loadout does 35286 and the lower loadout does 35706. However, should I change things to, say, Gas, I don't know if builder correctly calculates stacking Toxin procs.

Edited June 9, 2017 by SeraaM3

[ashrah]

torid is best to use for static targets and  works very well with vuaban wortex... get status.. use second riven...and bring carrier to negate that negative ammo..i would not use it in pubs games...  but for long runs... camp strats its pretty good

[Xzorn]

Torrid's listed damage is a mix of it's AoE Radial damage and the DoT produced from the Gas cloud each second for 10 seconds. Because it's damage takes time, it's best to either use a Corrosive + Blast setup or use a frame which is capable of slowing or CCing enemies in place so the weapon can deal it's full damage.

Status probability from the UI is more useless than normal for Torrid as it not only procs per shot but per gas tick. In order to find that status trigger per shot/tick you take it's base status chance multiplied by status mods then you can multiply that by the number of shots and ticks to get an expected trigger per shot.

For instance a single shot using 60/60x2 would be 0.2 * (1 + 0.6 + 0.6) 0.44 expected Corrosive status trigger per AoE and tick since you have no other elements present. this would result in 0.44 * 11 = 4.84 expected Corrosive procs if the AoE and each tick strike a target for the cloud's full duration. If all shots (for the multishot Riven) hit the target for full duration your status trigger would be 4.84 * ( 1 + 0.9 + 1.212) = 15.06 expected Corrosive procs. Of course since the weapon has a fair amount of spread with Heavy Cal (Not always a bad thing) it's less likely to get all clouds on one target past medium range. Without the Multishot Riven you would have 4.84 ( 1 + 0.9) = 9.2 expected Corrosive procs if all shots and ticks struck a target.

As a point of reference a lvl 1,000 Napalm will require 46 Corrosive procs to completely strip it's armor.

There is such a things as too much status trigger compared to raw damage. You may find you've red-lined an enemy before doing even 80% of it's health in damage. You're not exactly in danger of too much status however. Personally I find Multishot ideal for Torrid I have almost the exact same Riven as your multishot one. It adds coverage though less focused damage on average and also adds more status triggers per shot but not exactly per target since again, big spread.

Both Rivens are very good though, I think it depends how you use the weapon and with what frame / team comp.

[Blade_Wolf_16]

I think I would go for the first one... but that's just me.

With it, you can have 90%+121.2%=211.2% Multishot, wich means you would always shoot at least 3 projectiles every shot, with a small 11% to shoot another one. 

Compared to the 3.5x bonus damage of your second Riven, it doesn't look that superior, but since the multishot also gives you more Status chances (each projectiles would have a third of the status chance it shows), It would proc more easely, making it pretty decent for armor stripping. Of course, the other status effects are affected by status duration, but since you can proc more, it doesn't really change much, imo. 

The Crit Chance is also pretty good since, like you said, every projectile would have more chance to deal crit damage. 

[Blade_Wolf_16]

18 minutes ago, Xzorn said:

As a point of reference a lvl 1,000 Napalm will require 46 Corrosive procs to completely strip it's armor.

Isn't Corrosive proc a 25% armor debuff? Don't know if it changed, but if it's really 25%, then it shouldn't take more procs to completely strip the armor of a lvl 1k or 20 Napalm, nor any armored enemy, right?.

Am I missing something?

Edited June 9, 2017 by Blade_Wolf_16

[Xzorn]

10 minutes ago, Blade_Wolf_16 said:

Isn't Corrosive proc a 25% armor debuff? Don't know if it changed, but if it's really 25%, then it shouldn't take more procs to completely strip the armor of a lvl 1k or 20 Napalm, nor any armored enemy, right?.

 

Each proc reduces their current armor value by 25%.

A lvl 1,000 Napalm starts 438,864.56 before armor reduction. The first proc would reduce that to 438,864.56 *( 1 - 0.25) = 329,148.42 a 2nd proc would reduce the new value to 246,861.315 and so on.

[Blade_Wolf_16]

2 minutes ago, Xzorn said:

 

Each proc reduces their current armor value by 25%.

A lvl 1,000 Napalm starts 438,864.56 before armor reduction. The first proc would reduce that to 438,864.56 *( 1 - 0.25) = 329,148.42 a 2nd proc would reduce the new value to 246,861.315 and so on.

Then it doesn't take more. 

[Xzorn]

9 minutes ago, Blade_Wolf_16 said:

Then it doesn't take more. 

 

it does.

Though the biggest difference in required procs is between level 1 and 100.

The higher in level you go past lvl 100 the less required procs raises.

A lvl 1,000 Napalm requires 46 Corrosive procs to fully strip armor while a lvl 9,999 Napalm requires 60 procs. An 8,999 level difference but only 14 addition Corrosive procs needed to strip it's armor. This is an example of what I meant in my original post about, there is actually such a thing as too much status when weighted against raw damage but most endurance runs use a Banshee and other damage buffs so it doesn't usually come up.

[Blade_Wolf_16]

9 minutes ago, Xzorn said:

A lvl 1,000 Napalm requires 46 Corrosive procs to fully strip armor while a lvl 9,999 Napalm requires 60 procs. An 8,999 level difference but only 14 addition Corrosive procs needed to strip it's armor. 

Gosh, if only I was good at math (and wide awake, full of energy), I could look for the answer by myself, but i'm not.

Too much numbers are bad for my sleepy brain. Maybe I'll look for an answer tomorrow. Or maybe not. Don't know yet :P.

[SeraaM3]

What you all have offered so far is a very big help. I'll have to re-read it quite a few times to grasp it all though.

The reason I'm using Heavy Cal right now is that I just forma'ed Mag and it's pretty damn easy to hit a Magnetize with the terribad accuracy. If I wasn't using that or Vortex etc. I would probably drop it in place of the Toxin 60/60 or Argon Scope - based on what my limited knowledge was before the OP.

Typically, I use accurate weapons (Chamber) that I can safely use at range, so I may find that I'm not a Heavy Cal fan unless I'm playing with Mag/Vauban. I DO try to play with the weapon in a manner that I'm sticking my targets and not coating the ground. With regards to the Toxin 60/60, I was concerned that I would strip armor too fast for the lower damage value (compared to Heavy Cal) to handle. Argon Scope would help drive the crit ratings up, though it lowers my base even further than using a 60/60 and I was concerned that frequent crits on a weak base would simply lead to weak crits. Then I started thinking the Dam+Toxin was better, but I lost crits. Obviously, I just kept going in circles leading to the OP. So, basically, what should the build be for non-Heavy Cal?

@Xzorn Your math on the Corrosive procs needed to strip armor leads me to believe that for an endurance run, I'm probably better with the MS + CC - regardless of enemy armor. Corrosive if they have armor and Viral if they didn't and relying on the status procs to do most of my damage, even if it is artificial. Are there reasonably frequent scenarios where I'd want both rivens? I don't want to hang on to one for the once-in-a-million shot opportunity where I can do 10% more damage.

Edited June 9, 2017 by SeraaM3

[(PSN)Onder6099]

1 hour ago, SeraaM3 said:

What you all have offered so far is a very big help. I'll have to re-read it quite a few times to grasp it all though.

The reason I'm using Heavy Cal right now is that I just forma'ed Mag and it's pretty damn easy to hit a Magnetize with the terribad accuracy. If I wasn't using that or Vortex etc. I would probably drop it in place of the Toxin 60/60 or Argon Scope - based on what my limited knowledge was before the OP.

Typically, I use accurate weapons (Chamber) that I can safely use at range, so I may find that I'm not a Heavy Cal fan unless I'm playing with Mag/Vauban. I DO try to play with the weapon in a manner that I'm sticking my targets and not coating the ground. With regards to the Toxin 60/60, I was concerned that I would strip armor too fast for the lower damage value (compared to Heavy Cal) to handle. Argon Scope would help drive the crit ratings up, though it lowers my base even further than using a 60/60 and I was concerned that frequent crits on a weak base would simply lead to weak crits. Then I started thinking the Dam+Toxin was better, but I lost crits. Obviously, I just kept going in circles leading to the OP. So, basically, what should the build be for non-Heavy Cal?

@Xzorn Your math on the Corrosive procs needed to strip armor leads me to believe that for an endurance run, I'm probably better with the MS + CC - regardless of enemy armor. Corrosive if they have armor and Viral if they didn't and relying on the status procs to do most of my damage, even if it is artificial. Are there reasonably frequent scenarios where I'd want both rivens? I don't want to hang on to one for the once-in-a-million shot opportunity where I can do 10% more damage.

Torid is Area of Effect weapon, so bad Accuracy thanks to HC + Multishot will let you cover more Area. Firestorm will help u increased it. While + Multishot on first Riven is great, - Status Duration is huge downgrade, especially when u use Status Effects dealing Damage over Time, time to reroll. Stats I will focus on: Reload speed, Magazine size, Status Duration, Flight speed all positive, of course. 2. Riven is my goto. Imho Mag's Magnetize is  killing Torid's potential, I will definitely go with Polarize, range depends on Duration, similar to Nova's MP, which strips Armor/Shields and mod Torid for Viral.

[SeraaM3]

With Torid having such a small base diameter of 3m, I didn't think Firestorm would make the spread wide enough to cover the damage loss. As for the -Duration, since I'm using Magnetize with Heavy Cal, the -SD is largely irrelevant. Corrosive procs do not wear off and DoT effects are getting refreshed because the enemies are locked in the bubble and can't move out. When I don't use/play with a Mag/Vauban, I'm trying to stick the grenades to enemies and not using Heavy Cal. -Duration does not effect the cloud duration. Thus, wouldn't the only downside be if the enemies were running through clouds I shot at the ground? That's a play type I'm try to stay away from regardless of my weapon so I was hoping -duration would be nearly a non-issue. Viral is one of the few effects negatively impacted by the -duration, but again, as long as the enemy is locked in my cloud via Magnetize or Vortex, I was hoping that sheer damage and procs would be killing things before effects are wearing off.

I'm not saying you're wrong, these were just my preconceived notions on how it all worked. Perhaps I have things to learn, perhaps I'm on the correct path. That's all what I'm here to get help with. :)

[Xzorn]

8 hours ago, SeraaM3 said:

Then I started thinking the Dam+Toxin was better, but I lost crits. Obviously, I just kept going in circles leading to the OP. So, basically, what should the build be for non-Heavy Cal?

@Xzorn Your math on the Corrosive procs needed to strip armor leads me to believe that for an endurance run, I'm probably better with the MS + CC - regardless of enemy armor. Corrosive if they have armor and Viral if they didn't and relying on the status procs to do most of my damage, even if it is artificial. Are there reasonably frequent scenarios where I'd want both rivens? I don't want to hang on to one for the once-in-a-million shot opportunity where I can do 10% more damage.

 

I actually prefer Heavy Cal on Torrid most of the time but I run a Corrosive + Blast setup like I mentioned. it gives Torrid a nice area of coverage to CC lock enemies. I also have a Critl setup similar to yours but since it doesn't use Blast it needs specific frames. If you ever don't wish for the area coverage then Primed Bane is the best replacement outside the Void. You should actually be able to get a larger damage per shot by replacing Point Strike with Primed Bane in your current config but when it comes the the Void, you're kinda stuck with Heavy Cal regardless. Argon Scope no longer works with AoE weapons unless the projectile itself head-shots.

The reason I didn't want to dismiss the +%Toxic Riven was because the Toxic would add more Corrosive weight when running a 60/60x4 build where you normally have more than needed Blast or Electric procs but after doing the math the multishot still wins as long as the extra clouds are affecting the same enemy. It's when one cloud is affecting an enemy that +%Toxic would be better. I personally find multishot more useful for coverage.

+Toxic Riven
25% Blast weight
75% Corrosive weight
.68 Status trigger per tick
7.48 Status trigger per full duration, 5.6 Corrosive procs per cloud
14.2 Status trigger per shot, 10.66 expected Corrosive trigger per shot

+Multishot Riven
35% Blast weight
65% Corrosive weight
.68 Status trigger per tick
7.48 Status trigger per full duration, 4.86 Corrosive procs per cloud
24.03 status trigger per shot, 15.6 expected Corrosive trigger per shot

I would run a 60/60x2 config with you're current setup since that will also give you 15 expected Corrosive triggers per shot but then again this is Mag we're talking about who does bonkers damage multipliers so I'm not sure it'll matter much either way even as her Polarize falls off. By comparison a single 60/60 is 11.3 Corrosive triggers per shot.

-%Duration will negatively impact Torrid if you run a Gas + Electric / Crit Toxic build for Corpus or you run with Madurai's Slash Passive. Viral status is refreshed each time it procs so long as enemies stay in the cloud it shouldn't be a problem.

[(XBOX)D34thst41ker]

12 hours ago, Blade_Wolf_16 said:

Then it doesn't take more. 

The key is the word "current". To explain,  let's assume a fictional enemy with 100 armor. We get 1 Corrosive proc, and his armor drops to 75. Another Corrosive proc drops his current (75) armor by 25%, not his max (100). This means that the second Corrosive proc drops his armor to 75 * (1 - 0.25), or 56.25 armor. A third one would drop it to 42.1875, and a fourth would drop it to 31.640625.

[Blade_Wolf_16]

2 hours ago, (Xbox One)D34thst41ker said:

The key is the word "current". To explain,  let's assume a fictional enemy with 100 armor. We get 1 Corrosive proc, and his armor drops to 75. Another Corrosive proc drops his current (75) armor by 25%, not his max (100). This means that the second Corrosive proc drops his armor to 75 * (1 - 0.25), or 56.25 armor. A third one would drop it to 42.1875, and a fourth would drop it to 31.640625.

Yeah, just did some math, and even if I'm sure I made some casual mistakes (since I,m not that good at it), I have to admit I was wrong. 

Next time I'll do math before arguing ^^'.

Edited June 9, 2017 by Blade_Wolf_16

[(PSN)Onder6099]

Firestorm give u +91% more area. Status Duration doesn't effect Corrosive, Blast and Impact SE, while Impact is irrelevant u have only Corrosive and Blast to handle with, which limited u to use such a powerful weapon as Torid against 1 Faction (2 after Tar Moa will appear between Infested). While   -Duration effect on SE with timed Duration is not that bad, well -56,8% is really high, fe U will reduce Viral Duration to somewhere around 2,6 sec while Torid's reload is 3 sec, on SE dealing DoT is huge because it reduce the number of Tics, in this case by 56,8%, so u r practically reducing your Dmg by that percentage.

Edited June 10, 2017 by (PS4)Onder6099
Add Viral calc