Feedback: Stunlock, Staggering, Action Disruption, Loss of Control - Not Cool. Please turn it down.

[UkyoSonoda]

This really has nothing to do with stun/stagger/knockdown mechanics making the game hard. They're simply overused creating artificial difficulty until you realize how to avoid it. I gripe more over a precieved lack of creativity in constant use of these and would prefer alot of it get removed and replaced with various other engagement mechanics.

Example I think the Grinder or Grineer Roller I think is what the name is showing in game now would have worked better as a rolling guided bomb rather than an annoying stagger spam nuicance.

Infested as a whole could use an array of new mechanics improving their ability to engage players in close/melee range and boost survivability vs gunfire while losing a large amount of the stun/stagger spam.

My outlook on it anyway.

[gell]

After playing the game again, I realized that the last couple responses to me didn't understand what I, or a few others, are talking about.

No one here is saying avoiding stun is hard. It's quite easy. Every so often though, you might get hit and fall down. The game has a mechanic where you might be stun locked. This means you'll get knocked down again and again, while you are getting up from being knocked down. No amount of power, spacebar, shift key spamming will get you out. Have you never been in a situation where you were hit by an ancient disruptor? I'm not talking about the first hit being hard or something. If I'm hit by it, I'll live up to it. Of course there are quite a few ways to avoid it. I don't have trouble with that. But sometimes you might fall, and the game allows you to be indefinitely knocked down. There are situations where you can't get out of this once you're in. It's like saying, "don't get hit" while playing a fighting game, and if you do, sorry, you'll go from 100% health to 0.

Now, I'm not acting like this happens all the time. Often if I do manage to get hit, I'll get up just fine. But sometimes, I get hit once, fall to the ground, and there's no amount of skill that can stop me from getting killed by the random series of knockdown attacks. If you still don't know what I'm talking about, try a little harder.

I can't believe it even has to be explained. Don't treat the other players like they're terrible. This game is suuuuper easy. And yet, going from full health/shields to death and being unable to do anything about it (yes it means I'm either solo or my teammates are not there for whatever reason) is not good design.

Edited February 12, 2013 by gell

[Mak_Gohae]

After playing the game again, I realized that the last couple responses to me didn't understand what I, or a few others, are talking about.

No one here is saying avoiding stun is hard. It's quite easy. Every so often though, you might get hit and fall down. The game has a mechanic where you might be stun locked. This means you'll get knocked down again and again, while you are getting up from being knocked down. No amount of power, spacebar, shift key spamming will get you out. Have you never been in a situation where you were hit by an ancient disruptor? I'm not talking about the first hit being hard or something. If I'm hit by it, I'll live up to it. Of course there are quite a few ways to avoid it. I don't have trouble with that. But sometimes you might fall, and the game allows you to be indefinitely knocked down. There are situations where you can't get out of this once you're in. It's like saying, "don't get hit" while playing a fighting game, and if you do, sorry, you'll go from 100% health to 0.

Now, I'm not acting like this happens all the time. Often if I do manage to get hit, I'll get up just fine. But sometimes, I get hit once, fall to the ground, and there's no amount of skill that can stop me from getting killed by the random series of knockdown attacks. If you still don't know what I'm talking about, try a little harder.

I can't believe it even has to be explained. Don't treat the other players like they're terrible. This game is suuuuper easy. And yet, going from full health/shields to death and being unable to do anything about it (yes it means I'm either solo or my teammates are not there for whatever reason) is not good design.

No i have never been in that situation. I only get hit a max of two times in most occasions, maybe 3 if im being goofy and trying something stuff.

And i am not treating anyone as if they are terrible i am just relaying what i do to not get in those situations because i never have it happen to the degree people talk about here. Never so much to excuse these endless threads about the same thing. And, as far as i know, we are playing the same game.

[neKroMancer]

One is a poor sample size, Mak.

[Noctua]

The greneer balls are uninspired enemies who lead to unfun gameplay. If there will ever be a vote to cast them out of the game, count me in.

[V0LK]

It's sad to see Chargers got so much negative response(and bastards deserve all of it) but still nothing is done about it.

I can even understand the stun-lock mechanics in general, but their damage is too high. "Weak claw attack", yeah, right! And for enemies with a devastating staggering attack there's just too many of them.

[Jakiller]

Yep. Infested got so frustrating that its like holidays when I play in Grineer or Corpus zones.

[Ferriwind]

I think the stunlock is fine. There are many ways to avoid the stunlock and it adds a different kind of challenge then just taking massive damage from enemy fire arms. There should be a few points in the knockdown animation where you can recover since it's redonkulous trying to get up from a knockdown and you see Kril preparing to stun you again.

Also I heard DE is adding a blocking mechanism. I hope it works with staggering melee blows.

Edited March 14, 2013 by Stygi

[Crimson_Thomas]

Ced23Ric, thank you for posting this.

I feel the same way, I'm completely fine with Warframe having enemies that have the ability to stagger or stun-lock the player. I actually believe it is essential for adding proper balance to the gameplay. However, I believe it's been taken too far. Way too far. I'll focus on my experience with Grineer.

Almost every Grineer soldier has some ability to stagger you (which I'm ok with if you don't dodge the rifle butt or napalm rocket), but now the Grineer marines have the ability to dispatch the Grinders and "Shock Mines," and they do use them. They utterly and wholly spam them. I can't italicize or emphasize that point enough. When there is an entire room full of Grineers hell-bent on killing you and you alone, and they start spamming Grinders or "Shock Mines," the game stops being fun. It becomes flat-out cheap and frustrating.

In just today alone, I was chain-stun-locked five times in a row by those rolling "Shock Mines," and when you stop moving, as other players here have stated, the game spawns more enemies to come for you. I had about eleven Grineer marines around me, two of which were Seekers and two more were Napalms. Also, help wasn't coming because my teammates were trapped in the exact same stun-lock ordeal on the other side of the ship. I wasn't about to waste any more of my revives for the day on that. Frustrated, I quit the game.

I understand that there has to be at least a few ways to slow down cyber-space-ninjas, but the whole stun-lock thing has been taken too far. Especially when there is zero way to avoid getting stun-locked. When you have three to five "Shock Mines" rolling towards you, you will get hit. There is no fun in that, and that isn't a good gameplay mechanic.

Edited March 14, 2013 by Crimson_Thomas

[CosyPigeon]

+1 to OP, don't really like the ammount of crap that takes away player control, come up with somehting else please.

[Grinstone]

I agree with the subject of this thread as well. The fact that stunlocks can be avoided doesn't make it a good idea to have them in a game. To the best of my knowledge, in PvP all developers try their damnedest to avoid the possibility for one player to stunlock another. Why should it be considered a viable element in PvE? It's rather shocking to see an entire faction designed around that very premise.

I think almost everyone in this thread, even those who disagree with Ced23Ric, agree on one point: the best way to engage the infested is to prevent them from engaging you. Allow the infested to engage you and you run a very high risk of being thrown into stunlock country. Yes, the infested should be dangerous if they get close and you don't deal with them very quickly, especially with a runner and/or a leaper in the mix to stagger your or knock you down. Removing the ability for you to play your character should not be part of that danger.

Stunlocking needn't be removed entirely. I see no problem with infested having a chance to do this occasionally if they happen to swarm you with the right composition of enemies and you react too slowly or choose the wrong response. Occasionally. If you make a mistake. If the mistake is to allow any part of the faction to engage you at all, that's a real problem.

Just in case, I'll clarify that by 'engaging' I mean attacking. If the infested are running toward me, they're not engaging me. They're attempting to engage me. The whole point of kiting, stunning, or staggering an enemy is to prevent them from engaging you. Kiting can be an important and meaningful part of certain fights. It really shouldn't be most of the fight.

[Buddlschlumpf]

I do not get the point of this thread. Infested are the weakest of all factions, meleeing them is ridiculously easy. If I see a group of chargers, runners and leapers, I think "great", grab my scindo and smash them all. Ancients? Sometimes I bother using my boltor or akbolto, but usually, guess what - i grab my scindo (or sometimes a fragor) and smash them all. Infested are so weak against any kind of heavy melee weapon, it's just sad. You'll NEVER get stunlocked (unless you fall asleep) because your AoE freeze/fire/stun damage is so much stronger than the infested ones.

I only see people complaining that they cannot smash the infested into ground with ANY weapon and tactic there is. Seriously, guys, infested are a melee race. If you want to beat them, counter them. Either by not going melee or choosing a melee weapon that counters infested (or use Loki+Dual Zoren what counters everything in the game).

Quite in contrary to the OP, I think the infested need a serious buff. Right now, even Xini is so easy, I solod it with a rhino and nyx13 (and a scindo30 as well as a decently leveled boltor).

[Grinstone]

Quite in contrary to the OP, I think the infested need a serious buff. Right now, even Xini is so easy, I solod it with a rhino and nyx13 (and a scindo30 as well as a decently leveled boltor).

You're correct, you really do not get it. The OP is not talking about either buffing or nerfing the infested.

[Buddlschlumpf]

To make it more clear to you: stunlock is not a threat except you really want to get stunlocked in the first place (or you charge headon into a group of enemies while more are streaming in from behind - in this case you deserve to get stunlocked as well). Choose the right weapons (right meaing "weapons that counter melee units") and you'll realize that.

The game should feature more elements that require players to adept and change their equipment and tactics depending on the oppossing faction and the mission instead of less. I consider it necessary to punish players for not adepting.

Edited March 15, 2013 by Buddlschlumpf

[neKroMancer]

The point was redundancy of stun mechanic usage in Warframe, especially in Infest faction, and the fact that Infest stun offers no variety in tactic to counter. I don't think using heavy melee alone or kiting/box climbing is the way DE intends us, the players, to play the game. It is against the concept of fast-pace TPS gameplay.

[Sollet]

To make it more clear to you: stunlock is not a threat except you really want to get stunlocked in the first place (or you charge headon into a group of enemies while more are streaming in from behind - in this case you deserve to get stunlocked as well). Choose the right weapons (right meaing "weapons that counter melee units") and you'll realize that.

The game should feature more elements that require players to adept and change their equipment and tactics depending on the oppossing faction and the mission instead of less. I consider it necessary to punish players for not adepting.

+1

I agree entirely.

If you just stick your comfort zone gear and hope you can faceroll through content you are in for a rude awakening.

[Grinstone]

This does appear to be one of those subjects which people either understand or they do not understand. In the latter case they start talking about or making arguments for elements or ideas that are unrelated to the OP's subject. Which is how this thread ended up being nine pages long (and likely counting).

None of the people who believe they're disagreeing with Ced23Ric have put forth an argument that touches on what he's actually saying. It's not that their opinions and arguments don't have merit, but they are talking about something completely different. Hopefully not to the detriment of his message.

[Buddlschlumpf]

Quite the opposite: The OP says, stun is overused. I say, it's not. I won't repeat each ones arguments though.

[Laki]

The stuns themselves are not overused.

They are, however, too long. Nothing is worse than getting hit by a rolly lightning ball from behind, only to have to sit there for about 15 seconds while your teammates do nothing about it. Don't get me wrong. I appreciate the attempt to incorporate more team play into the game, but maybe that's not the best way to do it.

Things like jumpable shockwaves from the Jackal are fantastic though. That is a solid mechanic that punishes you for playing wrong or making a mistake.

[Zeful]

No i have never been in that situation. I only get hit a max of two times in most occasions, maybe 3 if im being goofy and trying something stuff.

And i am not treating anyone as if they are terrible i am just relaying what i do to not get in those situations because i never have it happen to the degree people talk about here. Never so much to excuse these endless threads about the same thing. And, as far as i know, we are playing the same game.

Neither have I, and I've been playing for just about a week. I spent two minutes chopping up chargers in a tunnel the last mission I played. I regularly melee infested and have never been stun locked at all. Hell, I've been stun locked more often trying to shoot the little bastards than meleeing them.

And do you know how relevant this experience is to the OP's point? It's not, none of it is. Nothing in that last paragraph is relevant to the point being made. The Infested, as a faction, under-preform due to an over-reliance on stuns. Their design encourages avoidance and running from them rather than standing and fighting like you would with other factions. This is a problem. It's one thing to have a faction gimmick, like all enemies being melee or all of them having shields. It's another thing entirely when the faction's gimmick is entirely binary in play. Adding stuns/stagger/knockdown does not make them fun or interesting to fight against, it just forces you to avoid them unless you know you can kill them trivially.

Just spending some time to think about it, the changes I'd make to the faction are as follows:

Chargers: Remove their stagger. Up their movement speed to be faster than the fastest warframe (not as fast as when using skills but taking sprinting speed into account). Lower their damage and health and spawn them in groups of 5-8. These are now weak harrasment units that are only dangerous in packs.

Runners: Change their stagger to a launch. Change their behavior to sneak behind tenno and launch them towards other infested units. Lower their health and have them explode on death no matter how they die. They are now a anti-melee enemy.

Leapers: Leapers can now leap to over obstacles between them and you, trying to move in a straight line towards you. Otherwise they are unchanged

Toxic Ancient: Lose their stagger on melee, and change their charge to leave a large cloud of poison in their path. Increase default poison duration.

Healing Ancient: Loses charge and stagger on melee. Change healing to a strong regeneration effect in an area. Have all infested that drop to 30% health try and run away to a nearby ancient (as in within the same room or near a door in an adjacent room). Add a slow effect to Tenno in the regen aura. Alter spawn trigger so only one can spawn in a room.

Disrupter Ancient: Loses charge and stagger on melee. Change disruption effect to do a lot of shield damage and deduct 100 energy, and then do 30% of the shield damage to all nearby Tenno after 2 seconds.

That should change up enough of the common enemies to make them more interesting, as well as give them threat in areas other than melee.

[PyroGnome]

DO A (BARREL) ROLL while being staggered/knocked-down = reflex save = nearly immediate recovery. Problem solved. A 3 or 4 second knockdown becomes a 1 second roll. This is how a REAL ninja would do it. A real ninja would also attack while rising if he were somehow knocked down (pretty much wouldn't happen). We can run on walls but not do rolling recovers? This is a legitimate skill that I was taught through martial arts, so space ninjas have no excuse.

Edited March 16, 2013 by PyroGnome

[polarity]

Well I'm pretty new to the game having taken a break from Firefall for the couple of weeks before their next patch, and I haven't really seen much of stun locking besides Nervos from the seeker grineer. Even those came off as a really cheap mechanic, forcing the kind of team play that rarely happens in a pug game.

Having an entire faction and whole maps consist of either kiting or getting unavoidably stun locked just looks like lazy, unimaginative game design, and I can only hope that it's existence is down to beta, and the devs not having got round to a complete rework yet.

I can't think of any game other than WoW where stunlocking was an issue, and that game gave most classes abilities that could be used in stuns, or equipment to get out of them. Stuns from rogues were tolerated because they were pretty weak any time they were caught out of stealth where a target could attack them. That game has a good variety of other mechanics, and the ones that completely remove control of your character have additional effects like polymorph heals you, fear moves you out of range of melee, and mind control causes the caster to lose control of their own character.

Firefall also has a good range of mechanics, and they work in combination to make combat interesting. There's spitters that deny areas with acid, exploders you really don't want to get near, chargers that knock you back, whiptails that throw you into the air and away from them, geysers that knock you straight upwards, frosts that slow you, and nautiluses that hold you down. There used to be a mob that pulled you out of the air while you were using your jetpack, but that ability was removed precisely because it took too much control away from players when the mobs were spamming it.

Looking at the Left 4 Dead series, and all the mutated zombie types, there's also a good range of abilities in that game, and in L4D2 more were added to stop players making so much use of huddle and wall hug tactics.

-

If DE don't want Warframe to look bad when compared to games like that, they'll have to use more than one mechanic. Preferably combining several in various ways instead.

Here's what I'd suggest as a start for infested:

- A few types of 'puker' covering the ground in substances that cause damage over time when passed through, cause the player to slip through the area, or stick to the player slowing their movement for a while.

- Other creatures that do knockback/pull attacks, so the player can get moved into the areas put down by the first lot of creatures.

That would give players the choice of meleeing down some first, or shooting others, instead of just running from everything and shooting at whatever in no particular order.

-

Straight stuns are just outright bad mechanics, and should never be use when there's alternatives like limiting movement but still allowing other actions, limiting visibility, or when removing any ability to move or act, at least giving some kind of protection from damage.

All of those are like 'OK, you have to do something else for a while'. Stuns are just 'eff you. You can't do anything'. If at any point in the game you stop the players from playing, then you have messed up in the worst way possible as a game designer.

[Grinstone]

Here's what I'd suggest as a start for infested:

- A few types of 'puker' covering the ground in substances that cause damage over time when passed through, cause the player to slip through the area, or stick to the player slowing their movement for a while.

- Other creatures that do knockback/pull attacks, so the player can get moved into the areas put down by the first lot of creatures.

I had similar thoughts for all factions; make encounters potentially more dangerous without forcing the player to become a spectator*.

For the infested, an idea I had was for a swarm of creatures similar to snakes or eels (basically somewhat smaller versions of those things that grown on infested maps) that don't do much damage themselves but slow the warframe. Potentially set their speed so that they can catch any but the fastest warframes (not including sprinting).

Another thought that occurred to me is to adjust the spawn/repopulation rates on the maps so that the infested maps stand out as being more densely and heavily populated. This assumes that the infested are intended to be the classic sci-fi / horror swarm.

I feel something similar would be good for the grineer seekers: slow the movement / attacks of an affected warframe. This way being hit by an electric charge is potentially dangerous but the player can still react and defend themselves.

Grineer grinders could throw the warframe off balance sufficiently so that they can only use melee weapons for the current duration of the stagger. That way even multiple hits allow the player to move and fight back but shuts down their ability to engage any other grineer at range.

To reiterate polarity's point, anything would be better than forcing the player to become a spectator.

* I was hit by a seeker and had two sawblades / powerfists standing right next to me. I sat back and thought, "Well, I'm dead." That I didn't have to use a revive was due only to the fact that, for whichever reasons, they simply continued to stand there without attacking until my friend gunned them down. Come to think of it, I should perhaps make a bug report about that.

[Fuzz_]

Always feel like your being "zerg rushed".

Is there just one stun animation at the moment? could use move based on the situation. I like the idea though if you get hit in midair you should kinda get blown back and have to recover ninja style. The disruptor does enough damage when he hits you you dont need a full stun as well maybe just like a small shove (like 2 quick small steps backward)

you should be able to avoid the blasted runner (blast radius). It annoys the hell out of me when I'm like "oh S*%! a runner! dodge!" and can not (dodge). Although, you could slash them and kill them instead but that's hard if your not standing close enough.

You should be able move slowly while stunned heavly too.

I'm going to suggest something from a game I played once where there was stun, knock-back, knock-down (like being tripped) and knock-up (hit by a dragon punch). Each effect was a little different and could apply to this game as well.

Example, when hit by the Runner's blast you get knocked back some distance to the ground but you get right up(blast stuns at the moment?). Railgun Moa could knock-down takes a bit longer to get up. If you get knocked upward, you can like land back on your feet crouched but still take damage in the air.

[Eternum]

CC OP +1