Solo Is Now Dull , And Not Rewarding Enough . Get A Squad For A Far More Easy Game.

[Psychotoxin]

And how can you imagine 4 enemies surrounding a highly mobile warframe? The enemies in HL had an elemenet of surprise. Every next playthrough you just shot them in the face with shotgun alt-fire or killed them with underslung grenade launcher. It was one time, cheap trick. You can't expect DE to make such one timers all the time. But they could force AI to make an ambush in this bigger, multi level room with boxes and things, where enemies would stay hidden and shot you all at the same time.

The challenge here is limited by the power of the character you're controlling. You can corner a one man army only with a wave of grunts.

 

soo... i assume that 4 level 150 dudes would be a breeze to you, right...?

Warframe is actually ripe with places, good for all manner of ambushes, sneak attacks and enemy hit-and-run maneuvers. since your map changes with every playthrough (even if it is compartmentalized, and you might see 2-3 rooms in a row) every mission has the potential to be completely unique. imagine this - you go into a corpus outpost, and are on the open huge-&#! map with mountains surrounding you. suddenly a bunch og corpus snipers heding behind ledges open fire, and some standard crewmen rush you. you go into this tile again, and expect the same ambush, but all of a sudden half-invisible corpus crewmen rush you (when i mean half-invisible, i mean the killing floor whatchumacallit`s type of invisibility, that you see a transparent partial body of a dude, only when he`s right next to you, with his nose in your armpits). of course this would require a remake of dudes and new enemies, but i`d rather have mook variation, than a friggin` ocean of same-faced, same-skilled mooks runing at me...

[HammerHead90]

soo... i assume that 4 level 150 dudes would be a breeze to you, right...?

Warframe is actually ripe with places, good for all manner of ambushes, sneak attacks and enemy hit-and-run maneuvers. since your map changes with every playthrough (even if it is compartmentalized, and you might see 2-3 rooms in a row) every mission has the potential to be completely unique. imagine this - you go into a corpus outpost, and are on the open huge-&#! map with mountains surrounding you. suddenly a bunch og corpus snipers heding behind ledges open fire, and some standard crewmen rush you. you go into this tile again, and expect the same ambush, but all of a sudden half-invisible corpus crewmen rush you (when i mean half-invisible, i mean the killing floor whatchumacallit`s type of invisibility, that you see a transparent partial body of a dude, only when he`s right next to you, with his nose in your armpits). of course this would require a remake of dudes and new enemies, but i`d rather have mook variation, than a friggin` ocean of same-faced, same-skilled mooks runing at me...

 

Now *you* are talking with "fake difficulty". More HP =/= more difficulty, just look at Jackal or something.

 

I completely agree with the "more variation" part, and more tactics on the side of the enemy. It's hard to implement and only few games ever had a really good AI. FEAR for example. But remember - AI works take time and specialists.

[Destro6677]

I mainly use frames I haven't maxed out the level on yet, with weapons I haven't maxed out the level on yet, and a sentinel I haven't maxed out the level on yet.

 

I haven't had any issues with soloing when I want to, and precisely *because* of the "parkour and cool stuff". If you were actually using those, you'd see how much they help you in dodging and avoiding enemies.

 

The game is meant to be "co-op", so it makes sense that soloing isn't the easiest thing in the world.

 

There's also some logical issues with your described problems--if you can't survive the "endless waves", you aren't doing very good at finding any of the secret hiding locations flooding a map, and, importantly, you're apparently trying to kill everything. You don't actually have to kill everything to succeed in most mission types, and complaining that it's impossible to kill everything all by yourself is... kinda lame.

 

In the few types where you *do* have to kill everything, there's a limited number of enemies to defeat.

 

If you just use the terrain available, and make careful strides to avoid enemies when possible, it's not hard to solo through things and still get kills. The fact it's a bit of a mental challenge instead of a "stand there and shoot things" slogfest is what makes it fun.

 

I don't think it would be particularly productive to the game for it to become a "a single person can stand in the middle of a room with a paris and kill everything" system, most people, particularly those in groups, would get bored fast.

 

If you're really having that much problems solo, go with a squad and *learn* how to use the terrain while they take care of enemies.(Make sure you contribute, you shouldn't be leeching off of their efforts!!). Once you figure out that there's millions of hiding places and shortcuts and secret passage ways, it becomes rather simple to progress, whether or not you've got a team with you.

 

Soloing should be optional, and it is, and it should be something you need to learn how to do, and it is. The game shouldn't be so easy that taking a team seems pointless, but that's exactly what you're asking for.

 

All of the various digs at "fake difficulty" and whatnot do not make you more credible.You aren't learning how to play the game well enough to solo, and it's upsetting you. So, go learn how to play the game.

 

My only possible agreement with anything you said is that I formerly used captain vor's mission to test out new weapons I'd bought without using any mods, other weapons, sentinels, or frame powers to win with. I'm not entirely certain that's a realistic goal anymore, with him being a level 40+ vauban with teleport and a summoner mode. He's actually rather difficult even with all of that, so as a vanilla "what does this weapon do?" test, it's rather useless now. Vor is, perhaps, too hard now, but the rest of the game seems fine.

I've been playing with pub groups for a few days now and I must say that playing in a team is underwhelming compared to solo.

 

I've seen guys die because they didn't dodge or roll to avoid enemy gunfire. I've seen someone jump into the middle of level 40 grineer and start kunai spamming. I've seen someone melee a heavy. Just yesterday, a Nova jumped into melee with a corpus formation of 8 guys on a Raptor run and got mashed in 2 seconds. All bad gameplay mistakes. But not an issue because they were in a 4 man team. Truth is, these people deserved to die. The problem is, playing in a team forgives you too easily for your mistakes.

 

Playing with a full team makes life easier for the whole team and defeats the purpose of relying on each other. Because nothing can actually kill you when you have 3 squadmates raining fire down on the enemies heads faster than the enemies can punish you for your mistakes.

 

You can still faceroll everything by taking turns pressing 4 when you're in a team. It's very noticeable on defense missions.

 

It is unacceptable to make life harder for the solo player but easier for group play. No teamwork is yet involved in group play. Just press 4 to faceroll and don't even bother landing headshots or playing smart. 

[arch111]

Braton is a viable weapon, especially with the catalyst. I only dropped it when I got the Dera. Skana may be your problem - get a Plasma Sword or Dual Ethers or even just Cronus.

just got Latron, couse its 2x the dmg of braton. but now see it got only one polarity.

 

Mind you, i have Cronus, but farming takes forever. i got very lucky with salvage on a few runs back, now it drops in small amounts and sometimes not at all.

 

I cant rush trhroug every map, then i will never get any mats. but then the ancients might get me with their bugged flipping all over the place :P

 

But some stated I can solo Saturn and Pluto and beyond. My question is: Do you rush the maps? But, no you cant, because there are Defence and worse Mobile Defence in my way.

I have no reason to doubt it can be done, but how? Or do you mean I first must farm Mars, Saturn, Earth, Pluto for like 100 hours before I can progress with better weapons / mods / frames?

 

I might have missed some huge part of Warframe. so Please, enlighten me.

[Psychotoxin]

Now *you* are talking with "fake difficulty". More HP =/= more difficulty, just look at Jackal or something.

 

I completely agree with the "more variation" part, and more tactics on the side of the enemy. It's hard to implement and only few games ever had a really good AI. FEAR for example. But remember - AI works take time and specialists.

 

 what!? where did i mention anything about more health? the "4 level 150 dudes"? that was an example of "now". everythingafter that is an example of "what could be". i do sincerely apologize though if my point came across unclear, and i in no way think that "more x = higher difficulty".

DE should steal the lead AI programmer & co from the guys that did F.E.A.R. man that was some never-before seen AI... an awesome display of non-human intelligence being reasonably similar to that of ours... those yet again are my thoughts, and my thoughts only. though i know that almost everyone praises F.E.A.R.`s AI as a work of art...

[HammerHead90]

@arch111 Last I checked I'm 90 hours into this game and I still haven't unlocked all the regions. From what I see, you need a lvl 30 frame with a reactor and a set of good, lvl 30 weapons. I'm using Dera/Braton/HEK as my primaries, LEX/LatoV as secondary and Plasma Sword/Dual Ethers as melee. The biggest problem are the mods - I still don't have many high ranked mods (most of my damage are rank 2-3 and warframe are 1-3). Once you have nicely ranked set of mods, you should be good to go!

And of course, defence missions are team-based missions - take someone with you, or fail trying to kill enemies from three directions at once. :) If they cannot kill the pod fast, it's okay - but high level enemies can kill it in seconds if you're not watching.

And of course, I don't rush the maps unless I'm 100% sure I won't be stopped. Rushing just to get stunned and surrounded by 30 enemies is a suicide - it's better to clear them off as they come. As for the material grinds - don't grind in high level areas. You're killing too slowly then, and you can't take a weapon you'd like to level up a bit for example.

 

@Psycho - It's okay, I might have misunderstood the post. Problem with FEAR AI is that it was indeed "never seen before" but also "never seen after". I don't know how heavily it relied on scripting and how it relied on adapting to environment.

Edited July 22, 2013 by HammerHead90

[NexionSE]

mods are effectively your lvl

[Psychotoxin]

also "never seen after".

 

 this is the one thing that brings a tear of sadness in my eye... as much as i remember from my own playthrough and that of my buddy, it was highly reactive, and not that much scripted. though it was a long time ago...

darn it... i`m  gonna play again, just to get the feel of a real intelligence playing against me... maybe it`s gonna clear some of the haze, that has covered it, durring the last few years...

[Azraill]

 

@Psycho - It's okay, I might have misunderstood the post. Problem with FEAR AI is that it was indeed "never seen before" but also "never seen after". I don't know how heavily it relied on scripting and how it relied on adapting to environment.

 

Honestly replayed it about a month ago and it seemed to heavily rely on the scripting, to a point it was almost a science of knowing how to trigger them to go through the half open garage door. I mean it was still semi unpredictable because you couldn't see them to really watch just how they react to you moving when your out of sight. But from observation I'd wager at least it was a system of event-layers laid on the walls and ground signaling that under the condition the player is not looking, or within proximity of this event, or is current in Event 2's area, to go here: with plenty of other Events that trigger similarly so the results semi-varied depending on 'exactly' where the enemy was when you stepped into said event area: in the end the amount of scripting per level must have been maddening, not to mention the play testing and even so it was still fairly predictable. Better than Warframes sure, but predictable all the same, it surely didn't seem like it was evolving after multiple play throughs: so much as just going through a series of randomized scripted motions.

 

Not critizing Fear, it's up there with the best and for it's age that's saying something. But I don't imagine the same methods could work without a massive play testing team due to the sheer amount of event markers that would have to go up and be tested for each use.

[arch111]

But speaking of AI, are the mobs not chasing us better now? At least thats what it felt like the first time a grineer jumped from a platform right in my lap and knocked me over.

 

It was in that room with the pillar in the middle that everyone new to parkour usually hates.

[JustDont]

I completely agree with the "more variation" part, and more tactics on the side of the enemy. It's hard to implement and only few games ever had a really good AI. FEAR for example. But remember - AI works take time and specialists.

Also notice that F.E.A.R's AI is a "fake" one -- a combination of carefully prepared "combat rooms" plus a bunch of scripts for enemies to navigate those rooms. It's still highly unsuitable as a "general approach" AI.

 

Scripted behavior have lots of limitations and almost always can be abused to no end by human player once he notices the behavior patterns. The "best" (in a sense of their winrate over humans) shooter bots are still Quake aimbots. You know, those who always know where you are, have 100% accuracy with hitscan weapons, and instantaneous reaction. And STILL a decent "professional" Quake player will win a fight with such a bot.

Edited July 22, 2013 by JustDont

[Psychotoxin]

Also notice that F.E.A.R's AI is a "fake" one -- a combination of carefully prepared "combat rooms" plus a bunch of scripts for enemies to navigate those rooms. It's still highly unsuitable as a "general approach" AI.

 

Scripted behavior have lots of limitations and almost always can be abused to no end by human player once he notices the behavior patterns. The "best" (in a sense of their winrate over humans) shooter bots are still Quake aimbots. You know, those who always know where you are, have 100% accuracy with hitscan weapons, and instantaneous reaction. And STILL a decent "professional" Quake player will win a fight with such a bot.

 

 i remember, that when i was younger, i had a snap reaction with the rail gun in quake 3 arena. it was rare that i missed or messed up, and mostly because the guy was behind me, or just on the edge of my peripheral view-cone, very far away... after a few dozen rounds my buddies started to insist on playing maps that didn`t have rail guns in them,  but i still did pretty well. we also played against the second hardest 75% cheat-on bots. man was that a fun and hectic time. i`m sad to say that this skill is gone now, and i have only a smidgeon of my former magnitude left. imagine WF becoming as fast and hectic as quake. that`d be awesomelly horrible. or horribly awesome.

anyways AI in warframe leaves much to be desired, and let`s just hope that U10, will involve Tyl finally creating a fully functional brain for the grineer, Corpus reprogramming their ospreys and moas to NOT act like indecisive dogs, and the infestation transforming from just a hive, into a hive-mind.

[Palamudin]

 i remember,..........hope that U10, will involve Tyl finally creating a fully functional brain for the grineer, Corpus reprogramming their ospreys and moas to NOT act like indecisive dogs, and the infestation transforming from just a hive, into a hive-mind.

 

 

Here here....

[HammerHead90]

Aimbot + wallhack bots aren't fun, so let's skip those. Not that it's clear that FEAR AI is "fake", what keeps DE from using the same type in Warframe? The number of "prefab" rooms is limited, so it makes the job easier (it's much less rooms than FEAR had).

[fatpig84]

Whoa look at all the flaming here.

 

Ok I give the run down again. Solo on Mercury is tolerable even with little mods. I killed Vor alone also without mods.

That is what I can only say for myself because not everyone has the same skill level or experience level.

 

 

Yesterday, I took 3 rank 2 to 3 against Lech Krill (level 91) with a level 19 Banshee unpotatoed.

Not the best idea, but I had max Rifle amp, my SV, my AkBolto, "Enough" redirection to take a hit from Lech (i get down to health if I got smacked by the hammer), maxed Sonar and shock wave, and a flow I think.

 

It was a massacre.

 

I died once, but they had died on average 3 to 4 times per person with frames tankier than mine.

I carried them from the entrance till the end, when Lech finally went down, I ran out of Akbolto ammo and only like 20+ sniper rounds left. It was hard but rewarding.

 

 

What I stress is that skill can let you carry a group or carry yourself. 

But Warframe being something like a hack and slash like Diablo, you will need the necessary mods coupled with the skill to pull it off to solo.

 

 

I can be skilled, but put me with an unranked Braton and I will say no way I going to kill Phorid with that. 

Give me a level 30 braton (unpotatoed) and any frame in my line up with the mods I HAVE, I say hey I could do it.

My skill can carry me through.

 

 

Currently new players will be less skilled. But that's fine, skills can be easily learned over but mods are NOT easily earned. I did a few rounds on Earth Gaia and Lilith. Those places will drop the much needed Hornet Strike, Serration and Point Blank to do mid level content.

 

 

But out of 10 rounds of defenses (on average I carried until wave 15),

i gotten only 2 Hornet strikes, 1 Serration and 1 Point blank as drop (all drops not reward) and they are all dropped after wave 10 and above.  A typical new guy squad will have issues reaching even wave 10 if they don't even have at least 400+ shields.

 

 

I have gotten away with base shields because my primary weapons one hit the mobs and I know how to handle myself.

The formula is basically DPS > shields, if you kill everything fast enough, you don't need to tank hits.

 

 

But new players don't have that advantage because they need to earn those mods first.

So yes, boost the drop rate :p

Edited July 22, 2013 by fatpig84

[InFlames]

Mind you, i have Cronus, but farming takes forever. i got very lucky with salvage on a few runs back, now it drops in small amounts and sometimes not at all.

 

Define small.

Is 150 units of salvage a small drop in your opinion?

Try farming Rubedo or Orokin Cells.

[Endrance]

lol

[arch111]

Define small.

Is 150 units of salvage a small drop in your opinion?

Try farming Rubedo or Orokin Cells.

Well yes, since all weapons require salvage, in the thousand mark.

Glaive, furus, ether blade all need lots of it. And saturns where its at.

[fatpig84]

Well yes, since all weapons require salvage, in the thousand mark.

Glaive, furus, ether blade all need lots of it. And saturns where its at.

 

Salvage drops in....

Mars, Jupiter and Sedna.

[arch111]

Salvage drops in....

Mars, Jupiter and Sedna.

Yes, i meant mars, a bit tired. Im not against farming and leveling, for the record.

[AdventSign]

Number of enemies and the amount of health enemies have should scale with the amount of people in the game.

Edited July 22, 2013 by AdventSign

[Nagisawa]

Number of enemies and the amount of health enemies have should scale with the amount of people in the game.

Agreed.  Also, respawn rate should also factor into that.

 

I took on a low level Mobile Defense mission on Mars solo, I think it was Mars.  I had two deaths, and 322 kills by the end of it.  It was against the Infested, and I have a rank 30 Excal (and I'm assuming 'Potatoed' means upgraded with a Reactor?) upgraded, but level 19 Strun, 20 Kunai and a 19 Orthos.

 

It was ridiculously overspawned.

Edited July 23, 2013 by Nagisawa

[dave021]

TL;DR: Game was tolerable at some point , but now is going full Serious Sam/Gears of Frame, but more generic and dull. 

What are we going to learn today ?

 

-MORE ENEMIES DOES NOT MEAN MORE CHALLENGE.

-THIS GAME SUFFERS FROM UNSTABLE EQUILIBRIUM AND FAKE DIFFICULTY.

-THE NUMBERS OF ENEMIES NEEDS TO BE REDUCED, NOW.

-EVERY WEAPON NEEDS TO BE BALANCED, NOW. (NERF SOME OP WEAPONS , IS NOT THAT HARD.)

-WARFRAMES NEEDS TO BE MORE BALANCED, NOW. (AND SOME OF THEM NEED A SERIOUS REWORK)

-BLUE POTATO MAN WITH SHIELD IS NOT AMUSING. 

 

My HUMBLE suggestion would be to HEAVILY REDUCE the numbers of the enemy and instead give the player a real challenge , like a tactical grineer squad. 2 ballistas offering some cover to a grineer assault team leaded by a Grineer Comander . that S#&$ would be serious. im not joking here.

Give an important role to the enemy support units , because when they happen to be there , they are a serious problem to any pro squad out there.

At least in solo . because it seems that stupid people like getting a dozens of waves of generic enemies when they are in teams.

The infested units should be more coordinated (or any faction in general), they should attack the support unit in a Tenno squad , the situation would get way more tense.

 

Just stop with this nonsense and add some quality instead of quantity. its impossible to deal with huge quantities of enemies at the same time. and to make it more stupid they have higher health bars than before. It makes the weapons useless, a lot of frames useless. and of course , a lot of mods useless.

 

The nightmare mode should be an OPTION. for those hardcore player that like their life bars tobe drained unless they kill something , i guess

Make the warframes more BALANCED

i mean the only people that will try to object with me are the people that only plays Rhino , Nyx and Frost. (and i was right, not surprising)

And most of the time they use one or two of their skills in order to win anything in this game.

Do i really have to get a Rhino in order to play this ? because i was thinking to make a trinity for my clan, if i happen to play in a squad to the advanced levels.

Make the weapons more BALANCED

I really dont care if people cry about this , but those overpowered weapons are demanding some limits. Veterans are asking for more difficulty while carrying maxed cheap weapons. while newbies won't stand a chance if they dont know about these things.

Instead of pushing us to play like everyone else does. just put some nerfs and buffs to some god damn weapons while reducing the numbers of enemies, Its not that hard. people will cry , but WF will survive.

 

 

If you want to post something stupid, just read and think about what i wrote here.

think deeply on how can you improve the game rather than trying to make a stupid internet argument against this.

 

 

Some games developers happen to listen to their casual community and ruin the game to the original fanbase. and sometimes it happens to be the oposite situation. I would love if this game happens to reach that perfect balance between those two communities. because it has a lot of potential.

This come from a not so hardcore player trying to spend a good time with the game.

Those are my 2 not so literal cents.

Now S#&$ shall rain from the sky.

 

 

 

 

 

--

 

Okay I think you have lots of valid points here, but you should try not to rant and type NOW everywhere in the begining of your post. Also, I made myself a very very sturdy frame (saryn) for soling missions, why am I telling you this. Its like changing your gear for a real life mission, you cant bring a bow if your rescuing some hostages in a bank.  We also have to think about where we are going and what we need for a specific mission.

 

Where you are right is with the difficulty settings but again, different frames, skills mods and it quickly becomes a total mess to make everything balanced,

They never could in any MMOS, never ever. Theres always some weakness or abuse to some gear and skills. Always. So I think by asking DE to change something, we also screw up something that was fine before.

 

Some exception of course. but I think they just need to refine the experience. Instead of cheap tactics, like spawning enemies in the room behind us lol, but without overdoing it. Even if they change 200 more things about mods frames people will still find a gap or a way to abuse a specific thing.

 

Anyways good post still, I gave you an upvote hoping they will refine the game even further.

Edited July 22, 2013 by dave021

[Troublechutor]

You have quite an imagination.

Gotta give ya credit for it.

But nah. Look, i post whenever i want when i want with what i want to.

If someone just tells me "you should leave and stop posting" or whatever.

That's when i do it most. Too many people think that they are in charge.

I'm just gettin all your juices flowing by just saying that I don't give a damn about you and your pathetic opinions on:

"How this game is sooooo hard!!" *cries*

That's a lot of words just to admit I was right, but what ever, at least we can dispense with you're childish rants about how hard core you are and we can focus on your core arguments.

.

.

.

.

.

I think that about covers it.  GG.

[wfrawn]

All caps, did not read.

However, as i was saying elsewhere:

Did DE put solo in the game as an alternative to multiplayer or as a hardcore mode?


I'd suggest that if anyone wants hardcore they can play alone in online mode, so solo should be of similar difficulty to a single player as online in a 4 man squad, taking into account the fact that in solo the player is alone.