Renewing Blocking Mechanics Ala Matrixexo

[matrixEXO]

OK, so nobody "new" knows what blocking is and those who knows just don't use it because it's underwhelming. So, to make it usable and to improve certain weapons, I decided to give my suggestion in how to improve blocking mechanic.

 

1) Blocking cannot be used on Heavy weapons.

It's a straight-forward way because Heavy weapons have too many benefits right now. This would add some flavor to other melee weapons.

 

 

2) Blocking have unique aspects depending on weapon type.

Here are my list of aspects that are only applicable to me. The devs have the option to change it on their own will.

 

Dagger: Blocking allows for a non-dual secondary to be drawn and fired. Guns fired in this state have an increased reload time of 100% and certain guns (guns that have high damage profile like the Lex or obscene auto-fire rate like the Viper) have a higher recoil effect.

 

Sword: While blocking, the user gains a bonus +25% movement speed boost for 2s. This only applies when the user blocks an attack and still holds the block button for the duration, otherwise the movement speed does not occur or is prematurely removed (to prevent usage of possible exploits on it).

 

Dual Wield: Blocking completely protects against damage but reduces movement speed by 10%. Attacking while blocking is slower by 25% and temporarily removes the added damage reduction for the duration of the attack (back to 50% reduction).

 

 

3) Timed blocking to be able to "duel" with opponent's melee weapon.

Why not a timed block to counter an enemy melee? Precision timing can lead to a counter and enables a perfect 2x damage opportunity. Counter attacks are the same as normal melee attacks.

 

 

4) Enemy melee can block too.

Cause we can, so can they. I doubt people who learnt about the arts of CQC wouldn't learn to block oncoming attacks. This is only restricted to melee enemies but it can spice up some old bosses a bit (if done right).

 

 

5) Unblockable attacks.

Because blocking can be too much of a benefit now, some weapons and enemy units have unique unblockable attacks (on weapons, it can be a 3rd swing animation but the rule on which swing being an unblockable attack is not set and can vary in number of swing animations which has unblockable attacks based on the individual weapon). This would mean that learning how an enemy telegraph it's attack would lead to a better engagement. Unblockable attacks will always stagger or knock down a blocking opponent.

 

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If it didn't take Stamina while you weren't actively wiggling your weapon around that would be a good first start. Then it could be turned into a toggle-able mode and reduced button-holding-complexity. A change to just preventing stamina regen would be enough on that end. Use stamina when 'reducing' damage, simply stop regen when not.

 

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3: Well timed blocks should "unbalance" attackers who are trying to strike us in melee.

Everything from grineer with machetes to infested with claws would offer up an opportunity to use our timing skills to unbalance them.

Unbalanced is a temporary condition that essentially stuns an enemy and makes them take increased damage from melee attacks.

 

I'd like to bring up Ninja Gaiden.

In Ninja Gaiden a well timed press of the block button causes the enemy to recoil.

The player is free to press the attack or perform some other action if they so decide.

OR if the player hits the attack button while hitting the block all at the right time...

an actual counter strike animation is initiated.

Doing something like that would allow the player to chose between imbalancing the enemy or more direct initiating a counter attack.

Perhaps that is the answer that allows both of our ideas to exist simultaneously.

Edited July 20, 2013 by matrixEXO

[Beean]

I like these ideas, or at the least a rework to blocking to make it more viable.

[Endrance]

On point 5, instead of 3rd animation, charge attack. It takes longer then normal attack, and since it's a "charge" attack, it should be unblockeable.

[Ronin666]

 

 

3) Timed blocking to be able to "duel" with opponent's melee weapon.

Why not a timed block to counter an enemy melee? Precision timing can lead to a counter and enables a perfect 2x damage opportunity. Counter attacks are the same as normal melee attacks.

 

 

How about when blocking, time slows down, so that you can actually maneuver and block incoming attacks (or bullets), for a set amount of time only. Thinking Matrix style. Could incorporate your counter-attack into that, or keep it separate, whichever is fine.

 

Make it stamina costly of course, and this would do away with the whole "hmm..stamina is just a bar, what does that do?" sorta vibe that DE_Steve mentioned during the last livestream.

 

Overall, support your ideas to make blocking more viable and fun across melee attacks and weapon types.

[EclecticDragon]

How about when blocking, time slows down, so that you can actually maneuver and block incoming attacks (or bullets), for a set amount of time only. Thinking Matrix style. Could incorporate your counter-attack into that, or keep it separate, whichever is fine.

You do realize that this is a mulitplayer game making slowing down time is a horrible idea.

Edited July 19, 2013 by EclecticDragon

[matrixEXO]

On point 5, instead of 3rd animation, charge attack. It takes longer then normal attack, and since it's a "charge" attack, it should be unblockeable.

Sorry, I meant it as an example. Plus, I don't want to boost the reasons to use charged attack too much. Maybe Heavy weapons would get a bonus of all basic melee attacks get a unblockable effect or something to make them viable even when they have zero block capability. Updated the opening post.

 

 

How about when blocking, time slows down, so that you can actually maneuver and block incoming attacks (or bullets), for a set amount of time only. Thinking Matrix style. Could incorporate your counter-attack into that, or keep it separate, whichever is fine.

 

Make it stamina costly of course, and this would do away with the whole "hmm..stamina is just a bar, what does that do?" sorta vibe that DE_Steve mentioned during the last livestream.

 

Overall, support your ideas to make blocking more viable and fun across melee attacks and weapon types.

 

You do realize that this is a mulitplayer game making slowing down time is a horrible idea.

Agreed on EclectricDragon's statement. Time-slowing would work only on single-player. Also, if you played the Multiplayer version of Max Payne 3, you might see a reason why people might be ticked off.

Edited July 19, 2013 by matrixEXO

[Brasten]

If it didn't take Stamina while you weren't actively wiggling your weapon around that would be a good first start. Then it could be turned into a toggle-able mode and reduced button-holding-complexity. A change to just preventing stamina regen would be enough on that end. Use stamina when 'reducing' damage, simply stop regen when not.

The main issues I have is that itis hard to tell what damage your reducing, if any. It doesn't really feel like much of a benefit standing out in the open wiggling your blade or massive hammer about.

====

Time slow has never really worked in MP. Max Payne 3 tried... with mixed results.

[matrixEXO]

If it didn't take Stamina while you weren't actively wiggling your weapon around that would be a good first start. Then it could be turned into a toggle-able mode and reduced button-holding-complexity. A change to just preventing stamina regen would be enough on that end. Use stamina when 'reducing' damage, simply stop regen when not.

The main issues I have is that itis hard to tell what damage your reducing, if any. It doesn't really feel like much of a benefit standing out in the open wiggling your blade or massive hammer about.

====

Time slow has never really worked in MP. Max Payne 3 tried... with mixed results.

In fact, it's hard to tell whatever damage you get until you get hit by it. Also, know that with a really good stamina regen mod, you can regen stamina very fast when you are still swinging while holding down the block button.

 

I do agree that blocking should not consume stamina but just halt regen unless you really block something, where stamina would be consumed then. Gonna add yours into my opening post.

[Ronin666]

You do realize that this is a mulitplayer game making slowing down time is a horrible idea.

 

Time would only slow down for you, since you're doing the blocking you know.

Didn't know blocking affected all players when one player started blocking. :o 

 

Seriously guys, lol.

Edited July 19, 2013 by Ronin666

[matrixEXO]

Time would only slow down for you, since you're doing the blocking you know.

Didn't know blocking affected all players when one player started blocking. :o 

 

Seriously guys, lol.

I thought you would have thought of it. Your idea of how it might have worked would make the game create multiple "instances" where one will not see what the other is really doing. This means a difference between both the original data (host-side) and client data by a BIG margin.

 

To put it to lay man's terms, it would creates unnecessary lag and delay.

Edited July 19, 2013 by matrixEXO

[BeefyScar]

Time would only slow down for you, since you're doing the blocking you know.

Didn't know blocking affected all players when one player started blocking. :o 

 

Seriously guys, lol.

if time just slows down for you in multiplayer mode, how would that affect the mobs? if the mobs gets slowed, then this is going to be abused in high waves by having someone with maxed out stamina and recovery to spam block so everyone can easily kill all the mobs.

 

if it just affect you, then comparatively mobs are running around you that much faster, and its temporary nerf on yourself.

[Ronyn]

Errr... how about keeping it to your own thread. We all can read it there. If you want my opinion, link your own thread in a private message and not through this means of spreading ideas that clearly do not belong here, even if related.

One never knows what thread will get the most traction, and like all subjects, the same information tends to get repeated all over the place. 

I posted it here as opposed to re-typing. Considering its all about blocking I believe it does belong here. 

Your opinion is welcome but me posting here isn't aimed entirely at you.

 

I actually thought a lot of your ideas and mine would work well together.

I didn't even view it as an either or situation.

Edited July 19, 2013 by Ronyn

[matrixEXO]

One never knows what thread will get the most traction, and like all subjects, the same information tends to get repeated all over the place. 

I posted it here as opposed to re-typing. Considering its all about blocking I believe it does belong here. 

Your opinion is welcome but me posting here isn't aimed entirely at you.

 

I actually thought a lot of your ideas and mine would work well together.

I didn't even view it as an either or situation.

Doesn't mean you need to copy paste or quote the whole thing all in. I would have preferred that you added some sentences into that first post of yours as well, if you ever thought about that. As no indication was given, it was deemed to me as a promotion of your own idea which already has your own thread on it. Call it whatever you want but I prefer to at least be extra careful on these accounts. But hey, at least you "learned" something, right?

Edited July 19, 2013 by matrixEXO

[Blatantfool]

Cleaned thread a bit.

[Ronyn]

Doesn't mean you need to copy paste or quote the whole thing all in. I would have preferred that you added some sentences into that first post of yours as well, if you ever thought about that. As no indication was given, it was deemed to me as a promotion of your own idea which already has your own thread on it. Call it whatever you want but I prefer to at least be extra careful on these accounts. But hey, at least you "learned" something, right?

Just seems we have slightly different views on etiquette. Its all good.

 

To the OP

I agree with the general ideas of 2,3,4 and 5.

I do not agree with 1 because I feel its too contrived to not allow blocking on the larger weapons which would reasonably be good at it due to how much extra surface they can protect just based on size. I do see the logic in looking to separate what they can do but i don't feel that particular answer is the right direction.

 

Some additional thoughts on blocking-

 

1: Make blocking aim towards the crosshairs not where the character happens to be moving.

Warframe uses a shooter style control scheme where our shots and our slashes are all directed where we aim.

As such we are trained to aim toward the enemy while moving in whatever direction is best. Let us keep it all intuative and unify the block to work that same way.

 

2: Make blocking WAY more effective at actually blocking fire but make it cost MUCH more stamina to do so.

This would make it useful for those who employ and add a big use for slotting stamina mods. Those who slot for it would be more tank-like. They would be characters who can literally block incoming fire for team mates.

Those who don't slot for it would be able to get good use out of when necessary but it would cost too much stamina to rely on often, preventing it from being overpowered.

 

3: Well timed blocks should "unbalance" attackers who are trying to strike us in melee.

Everything from grineer with machetes to infested with claws would offer up an opportunity to use our timing skills to unbalance them.

Unbalanced is a temporary condition that essentially stuns an enemy and makes them take increased damage from melee attacks.

 

4: There should be melee weapon mods to slot in that increase the effect of blocking in some way. We currently can increase various offensive aspects of our melee weapons, if someone wants to increase the defensive aspects instead it should be a choice they can make. Moreover some of the choices may bridge the gap between the two-things like "Rejector" that allows a certain percentage of incoming fire to be send back to the enemy.

Or "Geo Guard" that allows a weapons elemental effects to trigger on enemies who try to melee you in a blocked position.

 

5: A clearer UI indicating how good or bad each weapon is at blocking damage.

Edited July 19, 2013 by Ronyn

[Winterbraid]

OK, so nobody "new" knows what blocking is and those who knows just don't use it because it's underwhelming. So, to make it usable and to improve certain weapons, I decided to give my suggestion in how to improve blocking mechanic.

 

1) Blocking cannot be used on Heavy weapons.

It's a straight-forward way because Heavy weapons have too many benefits right now. This would add some flavor to other melee weapons.

 

 

2) Blocking have unique aspects depending on weapon type.

Here are my list of aspects that are only applicable to me. The devs have the option to change it on their own will.

 

Dagger: Blocking allows for a non-dual secondary to be drawn and fired. Guns fired in this state have an increased reload time of 100% and certain guns (guns that have high damage profile like the Lex or obscene auto-fire rate like the Viper) have a higher recoil effect.

 

Sword: While blocking, the user gains a bonus +25% movement speed boost for 2s. This only applies when the user blocks an attack and still holds the block button for the duration, otherwise the movement speed does not occur or is prematurely removed (to prevent usage of possible exploits on it).

 

Dual Wield: Blocking completely protects against damage but reduces movement speed by 10%. Attacking while blocking is slower by 25% and temporarily removes the added damage reduction for the duration of the attack (back to 50% reduction).

 

 

3) Timed blocking to be able to "duel" with opponent's melee weapon.

Why not a timed block to counter an enemy melee? Precision timing can lead to a counter and enables a perfect 2x damage opportunity. Counter attacks are the same as normal melee attacks.

 

 

4) Enemy melee can block too.

Cause we can, so can they. I doubt people who learnt about the arts of CQC wouldn't learn to block oncoming attacks. This is only restricted to melee enemies but it can spice up some old bosses a bit (if done right).

 

 

5) Unblockable attacks.

Because blocking can be too much of a benefit now, some weapons and enemy units have unique unblockable attacks (on weapons, it can be a 3rd swing animation but the rule on which swing being an unblockable attack is not set and can vary in number of swing animations which has unblockable attacks based on the individual weapon). This would mean that learning how an enemy telegraph it's attack would lead to a better engagement. Unblockable attacks will always stagger or knock down a blocking opponent.

 

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I like the idea of giving different weapons different block effects. Especially the ability to fire a pistol while blocking with a dagger.

 

However, I disagree with removing the ability to block with heavy weapons, and I think Longswords should be the ones to allow complete mitigation of damage, and Dual weapons should come with a mobility bonus.

 

I don't really see the purpose of giving you a temporary mobility boost as a reward for blocking anyways, how would you use it? To run away? If you're gonna run away, then why block in the first place?

 

I'd like to see it as this:

 

Dagger: 50% damage reduction, can fire sidearm while blocking (basically keeps your idea).

 

Longsword: Allows 90% reduction of damage.

 

Dual: 33% reduction of damage, stores a fraction of the blocked damage as bonus damage to your next melee hit. This would go along with the popular image of dual wielding as the most offensive form of combat (not true, but hey - video games have their own rules).

 

Heavy: Allows complete negation of damage, but takes longer to go into the blocking stance and return to the combat stance than longsword (during which periods you are vulnerable). Goes along with the image of heavy weapons as the "tank" weapons (again, not true, but meh).

 

Fist Weapons: Doesn't cost stamina to block, and you can attack normally while blocking, albeit at a slower rate and without the kick attacks. Basically holding block on your fist weapon would be switching to a "boxing" combat style with less damage output and mobility, but more resistance.

Edited July 20, 2013 by Winterbraid

[Ronyn]

 

I don't really see the purpose of giving you a temporary mobility boost as a reward for blocking anyways, how would you use it? To run away? If you're gonna run away, then why block in the first place?

 

Potentially....a movement speed bonus while blocking would allow you to close the distance on an opponent faster.

So if a dude is shooting at you, you block his fire and get up in fast quickly..now you can slice him to pieces.

I suppose it ties into the old reminder-Defensive actions are not always about escape.

[Ronin666]

I thought you would have thought of it. Your idea of how it might have worked would make the game create multiple "instances" where one will not see what the other is really doing. This means a difference between both the original data (host-side) and client data by a BIG margin.

 

To put it to lay man's terms, it would creates unnecessary lag and delay.

 

 

 

if time just slows down for you in multiplayer mode, how would that affect the mobs? if the mobs gets slowed, then this is going to be abused in high waves by having someone with maxed out stamina and recovery to spam block so everyone can easily kill all the mobs.

 

if it just affect you, then comparatively mobs are running around you that much faster, and its temporary nerf on yourself.

DE already has multiple effects in the game, like the lasers and such in the void that slow you down relative to everyone else. 

They're good at figuring out and coding gameplay mechanics that affect enemy/player speed and povs.

 

Don't sell them short..just saying. No offence intended.

[matrixEXO]

-snip-

AFAISee, Heavy weapons have way too much benefit right now. Also, logically, you don't block with a heavy weapon but overpower an enemy with it. This way, you can see that heavy weapons are meant for extreme offensive scenarios while other weapons are defensive/offensive purposes. This would, in turn, create a massive improvement in viability of other classes.

 

Also, in the idea of point no.5, Heavy weapons can be made to have every single swing be unblockable (with some exceptions). This would improve the reasoning behind a weapon being heavy (force = mass x acceleration/momentum, or something like that).

 

As for unbalancing an opponent, it contradicts my counter suggestion a lot.

 

-snip-

What Ronyn said.

 

As for the designs of no.1 and no.2, it's simple:

Heavy were meant for damage and hardpressing an enemy, thus removal of blocking mechanic would be a great way to promote "reckless abandon of pain-dealing swings".

Duals are basically 2 weapons being wielded one on each hand. If the left hand weapon were to block what the right hand didn't, wouldn't it be considered a full-on mitigation? Thought so.

 

As for your damage mitigation profile, I think it would be best to leave it to DE to decide how they would want to take it. I think it's best that it remains 50% for all except the duals I suggested though, since it would make most weapons more viable (than only duals or heavy). 90% damage mitigation does not beat bonus damage on next swing, ever. Complete mitigation beats anything since its on a weapon with MASSIVE damage power. Fists are still under decision for me but you can't really block bullets with those things.

 

Potentially....a movement speed bonus while blocking would allow you to close the distance on an opponent faster.

So if a dude is shooting at you, you block his fire and get up in fast quickly..now you can slice him to pieces.

I suppose it ties into the old reminder-Defensive actions are not always about escape.

Exactly the reasoning I had when putting it in there.

 

DE already has multiple effects in the game, like the lasers and such in the void that slow you down relative to everyone else. 

They're good at figuring out and coding gameplay mechanics that affect enemy/player speed and povs.

 

Don't sell them short..just saying. No offence intended.

Void slow pad only slows units on it. Lasers just beams you with extreme damage. Imagine you slowing down just because someone else decides to be a troll and spam block behind you and you are always slowed. Gameplay-wise, it breaks down and causes a blocking mechanic to be a trolling mechanic. Something I think you might have wanted unintentionally and something we see really clearly as a third-person's perspective on your suggestion.

 

It's not that it isn't cool or anything but it's only best in singleplayer games, not multiplayer.

Edited July 20, 2013 by matrixEXO

[Ronyn]

AFAISee, Heavy weapons have way too much benefit right now. Also, logically, you don't block with a heavy weapon but overpower an enemy with it. This way, you can see that heavy weapons are meant for extreme offensive scenarios while other weapons are defensive/offensive purposes. This would, in turn, create a massive improvement in viability of other classes.

 

Also, in the idea of point no.5, Heavy weapons can be made to have every single swing be unblockable (with some exceptions). This would improve the reasoning behind a weapon being heavy (force = mass x acceleration/momentum, or something like that).

I can agree that heavy weapons have more benefit than the lighter weapons, I just don't agree that taking away block is the right answer.

I would rather the answer, whether it be a buff or nerf in whatever sense, be found elsewhere

As for your statement "logically, you don't block with a heavy weapon but overpower an enemy with it" I have to say that is just inaccurate.

While its true that they are great for overpowering opponents they do in fact get used to block,parry and deflect in real use.

If it helps to understand why I am speaking with such confidence about how they are used it is because, by trade, I teach various forms of melee combat including weapons.

Reality aside, being able to overpower an opponents defense means very little until we can safely close the distance on them.

In a game that merges ranged and melee combat, if melee weapons aren't given some form of standard distance closing capability, it will retain a certain inherent flaw in its effective use. 

 

I do like the unblockable attack idea.

 

 

As for unbalancing an opponent, it contradicts my counter suggestion a lot.

It is contradictory. I didn't say that every one of my ideas and yours were perfectly capable of existing simultaneously...

Just that for the most part our ideas would work well together.

Certainly unbalancing and countering are different ideas they both rely on well timed blocks and offer the player a bonus to damage output.

So I feel we are moving a similar direction.

 

As I explained in the other thread. Automatic counter animation is cool but more restrictive than unbalancing the enemy.

With unbalanced enemies I can choose to either attack with gun,blade or power..OR I can choose to escape, run past or otherwise disengage from the enemy in any way I'd like. 

As a rule of combat-the more you can harm,unbalance or control your enemy while keeping your own freedom of choice the better. 

Not to mentioned an unbalanced enemy is left open to attacks from allies creating more synergy in the group environment.

[matrixEXO]

I can agree that heavy weapons have more benefit than the lighter weapons, I just don't agree that taking away block is the right answer.

I would rather the answer, whether it be a buff or nerf in whatever sense, be found elsewhere

As for your statement "logically, you don't block with a heavy weapon but overpower an enemy with it" I have to say that is just inaccurate.

While its true that they are great for overpowering opponents they do in fact get used to block,parry and deflect in real use.

If it helps to understand why I am speaking with such confidence about how they are used it is because, by trade, I teach various forms of melee combat including weapons.

Reality aside, being able to overpower an opponents defense means very little until we can safely close the distance on them.

In a game that merges ranged and melee combat, if melee weapons aren't given some form of standard distance closing capability, it will retain a certain inherent flaw in its effective use. 

 

I do like the unblockable attack idea.

 

It is contradictory. I didn't say that every one of my ideas and yours were perfectly capable of existing simultaneously...

Just that for the most part our ideas would work well together.

Certainly unbalancing and countering are different ideas they both rely on well timed blocks and offer the player a bonus to damage output.

So I feel we are moving a similar direction.

 

As I explained in the other thread. Automatic counter animation is cool but more restrictive than unbalancing the enemy.

With unbalanced enemies I can choose to either attack with gun,blade or power..OR I can choose to escape, run past or otherwise disengage from the enemy in any way I'd like. 

As a rule of combat-the more you can harm,unbalance or control your enemy while keeping your own freedom of choice the better. 

Not to mentioned an unbalanced enemy is left open to attacks from allies creating more synergy in the group environment.

Let me just point something out, logically. It's not realistically but logically. Now that we cleared this one up, I can see where your understanding comes from now so.. yes, I am wrong about removing blocking from Heavy weapons. At least in the terms of melee vs melee brawl. I can't see a way where one can stop dozens of bullets flying in your face while being able to hold it up right. Does it mean it's going to be changed? Maybe, but I don't see a way to improve blocking on Heavy weapons without providing it with even more viability over the rest. Mainly because any frame in this game can equip any weapon types, unlike in real life.

 

My suggestions were not only meant to change blocking but to, in turn, create a more viable scenario where any melee weapon suddenly becomes more viable. As such, I try to create a more "balanced" suggestion in regards to these 2 factors. I foresee a possible craziness in terms of viability for melee if Heavies were given a step up above all else through blocking, as it is right now (apart from Duals). I will still consider the design and way it "can" work while not being overtly better than the rest of the weapon types.

 

Just an initial thought is to have Heavy block be extremely potent (90% mitigation) but each bullet received stops the user from running forward for a short moment (0.5s). What do you think?

 

 

As for unbalancing, think the reverse. How "fun" (not "realistic") would it be if you get unbalanced by an opponent? Certainly, it could be Tenno-only skills but it would be awesome if an enemy has a counter mechanic as well to improve their combat scenario, rather than an unbalancing mechanic that totally removes any form of counterplay (you get stopped at your position and get hit by tons of enemies for more than you should).

 

Counter vs Unbalance, IMO, is actually negligible since it deals with the same thing while counter is a guarantee attack immediately after the stagger effect starts and unbalance is an extended stagger effect. The only thing that would stand out, then, is the duration of the stagger. They may be combined together though. If you timed it just before a swing, you counter. If you swing a weapon when an enemy swings his (about the same time), a parry occurs and if you manage to land a blow onto an enemy then, you unbalance him. But this is just 'alpha' thoughts on it so let's work together to "fuse" the ideas to make a better one or ones.

Edited July 20, 2013 by matrixEXO

[Ronyn]

Let me just point something out, logically. It's not realistically but logically. Now that we cleared this one up, I can see where your understanding comes from now so.. yes, I am wrong about removing blocking from Heavy weapons. At least in the terms of melee vs melee brawl. I can't see a way where one can stop dozens of bullets flying in your face while being able to hold it up right. Does it mean it's going to be changed? Maybe, but I don't see a way to improve blocking on Heavy weapons without providing it with even more viability over the rest. Mainly because any frame in this game can equip any weapon types, unlike in real life.

 

My suggestions were not only meant to change blocking but to, in turn, create a more viable scenario where any melee weapon suddenly becomes more viable. As such, I try to create a more "balanced" suggestion in regards to these 2 factors. I foresee a possible craziness in terms of viability for melee if Heavies were given a step up above all else through blocking, as it is right now (apart from Duals). I will still consider the design and way it "can" work while not being overtly better than the rest of the weapon types.

 

Just an initial thought is to have Heavy block be extremely potent (90% mitigation) but each bullet received stops the user from running forward for a short moment (0.5s). What do you think?

 

At the end of the day, for a game like warframe, I view blocking as an integral part of closing the distance on an enemy who is firing at you.

So I view Any sort of penalty that would work against that capability as the wrong direction.

Obviously blocking bullets with a sword of any size is not realistic..lol...it is just a very useful ability to have if one wants to use a sword on a dude with an assault rifle.

 

I do wholeheartedly agree that we should be looking to get all weapons to be equally viable overall.

So far I have tried to keep most of my suggestions in blocking threads contained to the subject of blocking itself.

In the wider subject though, I believe that balancing heavy weapons with light weapons can come from multiple sources.

Everything from making heavy weapon swings cost more stamina to making light weapons have more move cancel opportunities in an expanded combo system.

Considering how simplistic the melee combat in Warframe is right now, a huge aspect of advantage and disadvantage in melee weapons right now is related to the ability to hit multiple opponents or not AND the games over reliance on charge attacks. Being able to charge up and cut down three enemies in one swing has really put heavy weapons in the forefront of effectiveness. There needs to be a rather large shift in melee combat design to get that fixed.

ugh....That whole line of thinking is sort of it's own topic. :)

 

As for unbalancing, think the reverse. How "fun" (not "realistic") would it be if you get unbalanced by an opponent? Certainly, it could be Tenno-only skills but it would be awesome if an enemy has a counter mechanic as well to improve their combat scenario, rather than an unbalancing mechanic that totally removes any form of counterplay (you get stopped at your position and get hit by tons of enemies for more than you should).

 

Counter vs Unbalance, IMO, is actually negligible since it deals with the same thing while counter is a guarantee attack immediately after the stagger effect starts and unbalance is an extended stagger effect. The only thing that would stand out, then, is the duration of the stagger. They may be combined together though. If you timed it just before a swing, you counter. If you swing a weapon when an enemy swings his (about the same time), a parry occurs and if you manage to land a blow onto an enemy then, you unbalance him. But this is just 'alpha' thoughts on it so let's work together to "fuse" the ideas to make a better one or ones.

I understand where you are coming from, how the player feels when on the bad side of something is VERY important.

 

Lets look at soul caliber for example. The long running melee weapon based fighting game franchise.

When parried or repelled there is a small window where one is "staggered", open to being attacked.

The time is very small but it is enough for an enemy to capitalize on. The best players truly understand and utilize this mechanic.

That is more or less how I would envision the imbalance mechanic working in a player verses player situation in Warframe.

When imbalancing AI enemies the timing could be different and last longer if needed. 

Note: I purposely did not suggest that the AI enemies have the ability to imbalance the player.

I do not want players being subjected to more stun.

 

I am open to counter strikes and I do think they can be of use if implemented properly.

A lot of my concern is about the time a player spends in that counter attack animation outside of there choice.

Its a very small amount of time but split seconds matter in tight combat situations.

 

I'd like to bring up Ninja Gaiden.

In Ninja Gaiden a well timed press of the block button causes the enemy to recoil.

The player is free to press the attack or perform some other action if they so decide.

OR if the player hits the attack button while hitting the block all at the right time...

an actual counter strike animation is initiated.

Doing something like that would allow the player to chose between imbalancing the enemy or more direct initiating a counter attack.

Perhaps that is the answer that allows both of our ideas to exist simultaneously.

 

And I like the way this discussion is going.

Working together to improve our ideas was my intent for posting my thoughts in here all along. 

Sadly, the only topics that seem to last are the ones where the people in it disagree about the subject matter to some extent. lol

Edited July 20, 2013 by Ronyn

[CarboniteIV]

 

Just seems we have slightly different views on etiquette. Its all good.

 

To the OP

I agree with the general ideas of 2,3,4 and 5.

I do not agree with 1 because I feel its too contrived to not allow blocking on the larger weapons which would reasonably be good at it due to how much extra surface they can protect just based on size. I do see the logic in looking to separate what they can do but i don't feel that particular answer is the right direction.

 

Some additional thoughts on blocking-

 

1: Make blocking aim towards the crosshairs not where the character happens to be moving.

Warframe uses a shooter style control scheme where our shots and our slashes are all directed where we aim.

As such we are trained to aim toward the enemy while moving in whatever direction is best. Let us keep it all intuative and unify the block to work that same way.

 

2: Make blocking WAY more effective at actually blocking fire but make it cost MUCH more stamina to do so.

This would make it useful for those who employ and add a big use for slotting stamina mods. Those who slot for it would be more tank-like. They would be characters who can literally block incoming fire for team mates.

Those who don't slot for it would be able to get good use out of when necessary but it would cost too much stamina to rely on often, preventing it from being overpowered.

 

3: Well timed blocks should "unbalance" attackers who are trying to strike us in melee.

Everything from grineer with machetes to infested with claws would offer up an opportunity to use our timing skills to unbalance them.

Unbalanced is a temporary condition that essentially stuns an enemy and makes them take increased damage from melee attacks.

 

4: There should be melee weapon mods to slot in that increase the effect of blocking in some way. We currently can increase various offensive aspects of our melee weapons, if someone wants to increase the defensive aspects instead it should be a choice they can make. Moreover some of the choices may bridge the gap between the two-things like "Rejector" that allows a certain percentage of incoming fire to be send back to the enemy.

Or "Geo Guard" that allows a weapons elemental effects to trigger on enemies who try to melee you in a blocked position.

 

5: A clearer UI indicating how good or bad each weapon is at blocking damage.

 

This sounds more like what should be done here.  I just don't feel we should add any more arbitrary 'tables' to this game, it's a farming MMO, we get it.  I think we should be focusing more on the skill-based aspect of Warframe.  Wallrunning, rolling, sliding, this is an intergral part of the gameplay loop, we should be iterating in that direction.

 

These ideas are physical-based concepts that promote emergent gameplay, which is the real reason I play Warframe.  It's cause I can enter a room and the scene can play out a million different ways, because of all the physical ways the characters and the objects can interact with the world.

 

It's simple math, the more ways an entity can physically interact with the environment and objects around it, the more emergent the possibilites.  This is gaming gold, my friend.  But, this is also a heady concept, as well.

 

The main thing is, we should be saying, 'How many things can we do?', rather than, 'How many stats can we alter?.

[matrixEXO]

-snip-

While I never have played Ninja Gaiden, I think you are on to something. But the problem is with (Mouse 4) + E, as compared to holding X and Square simultaneously (on a PS3 controller). Problem being the timing of two fingers on different hands compared to using one thumb to push both down at the same time. Can be solved easily though. Gonna add this to the opening post.

 

As for changing of melee combat, that's in the works inside DE (I think). At least, combo system's being reviewed and looked upon so it can be a nett positive on all sides.

 

EDIT: Was blur and ended up replying to someone who was replying to someone else altogether.

Edited July 20, 2013 by matrixEXO

[Ronyn]

This sounds more like what should be done here.  I just don't feel we should add any more arbitrary 'tables' to this game, it's a farming MMO, we get it.  I think we should be focusing more on the skill-based aspect of Warframe.  Wallrunning, rolling, sliding, this is an intergral part of the gameplay loop, we should be iterating in that direction.

 

These ideas are physical-based concepts that promote emergent gameplay, which is the real reason I play Warframe.  It's cause I can enter a room and the scene can play out a million different ways, because of all the physical ways the characters and the objects can interact with the world.

 

It's simple math, the more ways an entity can physically interact with the environment and objects around it, the more emergent the possibilites.  This is gaming gold, my friend.  But, this is also a heady concept, as well.

 

The main thing is, we should be saying, 'How many things can we do?', rather than, 'How many stats can we alter?.

Thanks. I agree with what you're saying about promoting emergent gameplay and looking at how we can interact with objects in the world.

I think that bringing blocking to its potential as a core function would do a lot for the game.

Though a few unique stat bonuses to weapons to help increase the individual feel to how they function on top of that core functionality would help differentiate the weapons from each other. Stuff like giving dual wielding increased movement speed while blocking has merit

 

While I never have played Ninja Gaiden, I think you are on to something. But the problem is with (Mouse 4) + E, as compared to holding X and Square simultaneously (on a PS3 controller). Problem being the timing of two fingers on different hands compared to using one thumb to push both down at the same time. Can be solved easily though. Gonna add this to the opening post.

 

As for changing of melee combat, that's in the works inside DE (I think). At least, combo system's being reviewed and looked upon so it can be a nett positive on all sides. 

 

Thanks. But you should have been here since CBT. Then, there were no wallrunning and things were... 'grounded'.

 

Personally, the "many things that we can do" is not really possible to be done all the time since it would require tons of codings whereas stats are just an easy tweak of 2 or 3 digits. You can tell which goes the easier way to push content out.

 

Does it mean the devs are lazy and always go the easy way? Nope. They know themselves that people don't want that. Map designs, gameplay changes and even mobility changes (the addition of wallruns) were all things done in order to improve Warframe. Heck, even Stalker was a welcome change that made life hell (or fun) for us.

 

In fact, I love that they are going to take a look back at the blocking mechanic and really hope they take some ideas off this thread and others pertaining blocking.

Good points about button configuration and that DE is looking to expand melee all around.

While you are right that many things perceived as core functions by some of the newer players are actually kind of later additions....

It is best for the game if all of it's currently existing mechanics are treated as though they have been in the plan from day one. 

I think the take away from this is...well..

 

I look at it this way-Big design paradigms are good for making content then stat shifts are good for making alternate versions of that existing content.

Shifting stats is easiest for adding new stuff. This is why "new" weapons are often little more than stat shifted versions of old ones with new skins.

A machine gun is a machine gun..shifting stats gives you different versions. But that only goes so far.

A shotgun is a shotgun and requires different coding than a machine gun. Stats shifts will then allow for different versions of shotgun.

either way those stats shifts should not take away the core point of each thing.

 

Blocking is a core feature. It's functionality should be built into it to achieve its intended goal.

Then giving each melee weapon some additional little stat shift helps make them feel different from each other.

Lets just make sure those shifts don't disrupt what blocking is for overall.

 

In the last livestream Steve talked about the design theory of his favorite designers.

That warframe is this crazy experiment about swinging for fences. 

That design should not be be about shifting stats and percentages but about full on effects one way or the other. 

Following that line of thinking blocking should actually block effectively.

Stopping only percentages of damage is too much like just a stat shift instead of a full on mechanic.

My suggestions are based on achieving that in a true sense. making it a very "core" style of functionality.

They are based on forming the block function into a solid and useful aspect of the game.

I think you're suggestions help expand blocking out into something unique and interesting from weapon to weapon.

This is why I like the idea of combining our thoughts.

Edited July 20, 2013 by Ronyn