Limbo overhaul

[(PSN)Raelic1337]

Okay, so here is the thing....

I hate Limbo. I hate playing the frame, and I hate when I get one in my squad.

There is nothing more annoying than trying to burn down a swarm of infested, only to have Limbo run up and banish them, making me unable to attack them. 

His concept is really cool, the problem is he just doesnt synergize with the rest of the squad (unless its like a premade clan and you all know how each other plays) and he just disrupts the flow of things.

Anyone have any thoughts on how a rework might be done? 
I tried giving him a fair run, ran with a bunch, got my own Limbo to rank 20. I just cant stand him, to the point that I leave party if I see a Limbo in it.

[ZenroZephon]

He already had a rework done. It sounds more like you are refusing to adept to having one on your team then there truly being a problem with him.

He is one of the few frames in the game that does take control on combat flow more then some, but is it any different to a Spore build Saryn or an Exalted Blade build Excalibur?

Not really, they too take full control of the combat flow as well. Just like how most just follow a World on Fire build Ember to the exit on mid to low level missions.

Adept or be left alone and behind is pretty much how it goes.

Sorry if this sounds rude to ya, but you are saying because you refuse to adept to having a Limbo in ya team and then call for him to have another rework cause you hate Limbo for no other reason then having one in ya team makes you think is pretty rude and petty too.

[InDueTime-EN-]

No major changes will be made for the same reason why there wasn't any big change in the last tweaks. Limbo has a fan base that likes him the way he is. Those people can use him effectively and correctly. The issue we are having are those players who either are inexperienced with him or don't know how to use him properly in a squad.

I have played with the good and the bad limbo. You just sometimes have to play around them. Or maybe talk to them, communicating with them sometimes works. And when I play limbo in a squad, I don't have permanent stasis and I tend to not use his rift surge(it causes some enemies to stay in the rift outside of cataclysm) as those 2 abilities cause the issues with other players. I like limbo and he is an effective warframe. I can't say that I use him perfectly, or even close to good. 

And we are seeing the trend of reworks of warframes with limbo, oby and hydroid. No major changes will be made to any warframe. Especially with Hydroid, they just synergized his kit to arguably his most annoying skill. But it made me play hydroid again and I actually like him now. 

[(PSN)Raelic1337]

The issue I have with him isnt my inability to adapt. The issue is how jarring he can be to the flow of a squad if the player so chooses. Like in a defense mission, I am off taking care of my group of enemies, and limbo looks over and banishes them, and I cant touch them.  Please explain how i am supposed to adapt to that? he was just banishing everything so he could rack up the kills. there were 2 of us just standing there unable to play.
Basically my thoughts of a rework would be to allow people to still damage riftbound enemies, and just change how limbo interacts with them. that way the Limbo trolls will stop,

[InDueTime-EN-]

10 hours ago, (PS4)Raelic1337 said:

The issue I have with him isnt my inability to adapt. The issue is how jarring he can be to the flow of a squad if the player so chooses. Like in a defense mission, I am off taking care of my group of enemies, and limbo looks over and banishes them, and I cant touch them.  Please explain how i am supposed to adapt to that? he was just banishing everything so he could rack up the kills. there were 2 of us just standing there unable to play.
Basically my thoughts of a rework would be to allow people to still damage riftbound enemies, and just change how limbo interacts with them. that way the Limbo trolls will stop,

How about adding a feature that when a player in the rift would transfer the player into the rift too. And ofcourse, you can still roll out of the rift. 

[Haranthus]

On 8/15/2017 at 8:28 PM, ZenroZephon said:

...

Sorry if this sounds rude to ya, but you are saying because you refuse to adept to having a Limbo in ya team and then call for him to have another rework cause you hate Limbo for no other reason then having one in ya team makes you think is pretty rude and petty too.

I agree with OP ... Limbo in the party means no one else gets to have fun unless he Limbo specifically doesn't play to full potential.  There is no "adapting" to Limbo ... he just walks into the area and stops everything.  Were you attacking that enemy? Nope not anymore... were you enjoying that melee? nope everything's standing still now ... were you doing something? Nope you got banished and can't affect the enemies around you until you realize what happened and roll out ...

There is no adapt, there is only watch Limbo do his thing.

[ZenroZephon]

On 8/16/2017 at 10:55 PM, InDueTime-EN- said:

How about adding a feature that when a player in the rift would transfer the player into the rift too. And of course, you can still roll out of the rift. 

You know Limbo leaves behind a rift when he enters it so other can too. Plus ya can still roll out if needed.

6 hours ago, Haranthus said:

There is no adapt, there is only watch Limbo do his thing.

Yes there is way to adapt to him. One, your abilities can still work in and out of the rift, as well as on enemies in or out of it also. Two, if ya banished you can just roll out of it or use your invincible booty as bait to lump up enemies for other team mates to easily kill.

----------------------------------------------------------End of Relays------------------------------------------------

This is a Co-Op Squad focused game, not a single player only one. If one of the lease used warframes bug you so much, stop going in public missions and just stick to solo cause you all are clearly not team players.

Yes Limbo has a learning curve to him and his abilities, but not knowing how to work with a Limbo cause you don't wish to adapt is not worth yet another rework on him. This only screams out you won't adapt to team mates and will just whine about anything that doesn't go the way you wish it to either wanting nerfs or total reworks till only you are the one in the game with all the power.

[InDueTime-EN-]

10 hours ago, ZenroZephon said:

You know Limbo leaves behind a rift when he enters it so other can too. Plus ya can still roll out if needed.

Yes but there are those situations where there aren't any rift gates open and enemies plenty of enemies stuck in the rift. In those cases, the non limbos can't really do anything about it. An example of how that could happen is if limbo uses banish with rift surge. By chain reaction, enemies are sent to the rift and limbo doesn't need to go in and out of the rift to keep battling. It would be nice if the other players still have options to get into the rift. Other than that, I really don't have any problem with limbo. 

[XxaamirxX]

I agree, Limbo had issues even before the rework, these issues have simply been amplified given his new focus on bringing people into the Rift. The problem is the Rift is essentially all Limbo has that makes him a unique frame. DE, rather than choosing to make Limbo friendly in co-op and give him a niche in co-op play, gave him a counter-intuitive crowd control ability that makes the Rift even harder to work around. Unfortunately just the way Limbo was designed, he was an effective annoyance and required playing around, without benefit. 

 

I don't believe Limbo will be addressed anytime soon, given DE's current priority list with Plains, Hydroid Prime, etc... but I certainly hope he will be addressed in the near future. Personally, I would like to see all his abilities reworked to an extent, as it's hard to manage new Limbo without being annoying to teammates. Banish and Rift Surge are horrendously difficult to handle appropriately, Stasis makes the Rift even more obnoxious for teammates, and full range Cataclysm is an annoyance. 

 

I could suggest QoL changes to make Limbo easier to handle, but that wouldn't change his troll potential much more, besides a Stasis overhaul. What DE could do is rework Banish and Rift Surge, to make them Limbo and team friendly, and overhaul Stasis, to perhaps turn it into a slow scaling with power strength.
 

Some ideas for a Banish rework could follow as such:

- Well of Life turns a target into a health pool. Perhaps a Banished target could become an energy pool? Enter the Rift, shoot some Banished targets, increased energy regen/flat energy?

- Limbo leaves a portal near himself on Banish, lasting until the Banished target has been finished. This way, allies can enter the portal and finish the target, should the Limbo not be able to do so.

- Banish has two modes, single target, and group, for which Limbo could switch between. Additionally, Limbo can only Banish allies in single-target mode (no accidental Banishes, this happens quite a bit, as the new Banish has a lot of range)

- (simple QoL) Banish works based on enemy plane and not Limbo's plane, to make Banish easier to use

Some ideas for a Rift Surge rework could follow as such:

- If the 'Rift Spread' effect stays, put up a portal/'Mini Cataclysm' where the enemy who spread the Rift Surge died/exited the Rift. I believe this was supposed to be something implemented, but was removed in the end rework. 'Mini Cataclysms' are easier to work around, given they work in an area, and can easily be entered and exited.

- Bring old Rift Surge back, with the damage multiplier, and apply it to allies as well. Additionally, either buff the energy regen from kills/Rift, or give some defensive buff (armor, health/regen, shield recharge)

- Change Rift Surge to provide utility. I would personally like to see the Rift become a stealth plane, replacing the energy regen with a large energy drain, and have allies in the Rift be invisible to those outside the Rift while Rift Surge is active. This would amplify his niche as a sort-of magician and spy/rescue-god.

 

I believe the only way to really rework Stasis without pissing off a large number of Limbo players would be to turn the time stop into a slow, similar in effect to Molecular Prime. Perhaps the key difference could be a bullet slow solely on enemies, which keep his time-stop feel. Additionally, Cataclysm's range could be decreased overall to make Cataclysm less obnoxious. 

I understand my suggestions still keep the Rift, and still maintain many of his current problems, but I feel giving him value in the Rift would be the best way to reward players who do decide to work around the Rift in a meaningful way. This would keep Limbo's identity intact, give him value in co-op play, keep what Limbo players love about Limbo, and amplify his niche. Let me know what you guys think!

[dan.io.wal]

On 8/18/2017 at 11:35 AM, Haranthus said:

were you enjoying that melee? nope everything's standing still now ...

You do realize you can still melee and deal damage while in the rift and while everything is stopped, right?

 

Also, Limbo works very well in certain situations. Personally since the rework, I don't touch banish. I take him into defense and mobile defense, and Lua Spy because he kills that. He has incredible damage reduction/nullification with his four and 2, and massive boost do damage dealing with his third. I run a low range, long duration cataclysm build with stasis for defense and mobile defense. It's learning how a limbo plays and how to utilize having a limbo that makes playing with Limbo a joy. He is the master of reviving people with banish, can increase your energy regen massively, and synergizes so well with explosive weapons and setting up massive killzones. I feel bad for Limbo players. His entire kit is based around controlling the battlefield, all you have to do is learn the rules. 

[Azzaruth]

On 8/15/2017 at 11:28 PM, ZenroZephon said:

He already had a rework done. It sounds more like you are refusing to adept to having one on your team then there truly being a problem with him.

He is one of the few frames in the game that does take control on combat flow more then some, but is it any different to a Spore build Saryn or an Exalted Blade build Excalibur?

Not really, they too take full control of the combat flow as well. Just like how most just follow a World on Fire build Ember to the exit on mid to low level missions.

Adept or be left alone and behind is pretty much how it goes.

Sorry if this sounds rude to ya, but you are saying because you refuse to adept to having a Limbo in ya team and then call for him to have another rework cause you hate Limbo for no other reason then having one in ya team makes you think is pretty rude and petty too.

There is a very big difference between those. Excalibur, Saryn, and Ember plow through the mission and you can just go on to the next quickly. Limbo slows the game down to a crawl, considering every mob even in Sorties 3 dies in less than a second, the painfully slow pace Limbo puts on a game is annoying and uneeded. No amount of "learning to adapt and play" with a Limbo is going to make the mission any faster when the Limbo is constantly dividing up the battlefield, pausing my bullets, stopping mobs from bum rushing, and making mobs immune to weapons. There isn't anything in his current skillset that makes missions actually go faster. I much rather play with a Equinox and Ember, as it is fun to race them to the most kills.

[yles9056]

14 hours ago, Zephyr-Prime said:

"learning to adapt and play"

I don't believe in this, either.

It's not about learning curve. IMO Limbo's abilities are tricky for both his teammates and himself. So tricky that people avoid playing with and using Limbo in public games.

He still need changes to make his abilities more team-friendly.