Raptor: Punishing Vs Difficult

[Drakontis]

Raptor. The newest and most difficult enemy we've come across for a variety of reasons. He has many high damage attacks and has some arguably cheap mechanics, as well as being a flying enemy in an open arena. 

 

What makes him difficult? Flight is a huge part of his difficulty, this combined with the open arena means he has very high mobility as well. He is also difficult to see, he blends in a little with the background (His color needs to be brighter, more noticeable, I have no idea how much trouble somebody with colorblindness would have with him), and his attacks also make him difficult to track if they obscure your view. Many of his attacks are very accurate or 100% accurate unless you dodge behind buildings, and his mines stay in place. (I think that's broken, they should be able to be destroyed or triggered with gunfire. 

 

I LIKE these. I do not mind these aspects. I don't mind one bit that he has these mechanics other than the color issue and the broken mines. 

 

What makes him punishing? His attacks are all extremely high damage. With very few ways to mitigate actual taken damage, this leaves us with few choices. Frost's Snowglobe is almost required unless you (arguably) exploit or use some sort of mechanic to stick him somewhere. I stepped on a mine with 990 shield and base health with my Frost and died. One mine. Instantly downed. This is too punishing, especially when he literally spews out around a dozen at a time. His other attacks do extreme amounts of damage, in the range of one to two hit kills. Again, this is way too punishing, even with a potatoed frame. I just watched somebody trying to revive with sanctuary and boom, they died trying to revive. 

 

This boss needs a nerf to his damage. They are WAY too extreme, even if it is a boss, it should still be doable without requiring certain frames. Requiring a certain frame to do something is bad when we have around a dozen frames to choose from. Not everyone WANTS to play Frost, and that's probably less than the 1/4th of the game population in total. I have taken to playing Frost for playing the area so I can actually try to complete it instead of getting stomped. I'm not asking for EASY, I'm asking for difficult but NOT PUNISHING. You should be able to take a hit without instantly getting downed and then every person who tries to revive you gets downed in turn one after the another in short order. That is ridiculous. There almost isn't a point to HAVE a revive time when everyone dies trying. And that is ridiculous, in my opinion. 

 

I know there are probably a lot of topics about this, but I didn't see one when I searched and I figured that it'd be easier to give my opinion in this format, rather than a set of replies. 

[Ironmzn]

lol i got tricked into buying the storm color pack because i am blue black colorblind. made me sad

[Venexis]

I would definitely agree with you, I have tried multiple sides of this fight, one with my frost, then banshee and then my basic frames, Excalibur and Mag. It seems the frame requirements are coming through thick and thin, want to do a T3 Defense? Better get frost. Want to do Raptor? Better get frost. Want to freeze that orange flavored water? Better get frost. There needs to be a definite change to stop the frame requirements (And yes, this is coming from a player who would happy give frost some lovin' if he could).

 

I would suggest changing the rocket spam the raptor does do orbs like Nova's Antimatter drop, make them slow and make them destroy-able via bullets. For the bombs, much like you said, make them shootable or make them explode prematurely after some time

[Drakontis]

lol i got tricked into buying the storm color pack because i am blue black colorblind. made me sad

See, I didn't even KNOW THAT EXISTED, but I know that such issues can come up! If I'm losing him even while looking "right at him" or because of his rockets, then there's something that needs to be shifted in some way. 

[Shion963]

When I read that he drops mines like the Mine Ospreys, I assumed that it'll be like one or two every now and then. Nope, he just absolutely craps it everywhere, complete with wet thud noises.

 

I soloed/duo'd him while farming for Nova. Both of us ALWAYS running Vauban, rushing to and planting a lot of Teslas outside the door of the convenient 'nuclear shelter' in the middle of the boss arena. It became just waiting for him to swing by, and spamming one area full with Teslas.

Stepping outside = death.

Opening the door at the wrong time = death.

 

 Sometimes we poke our head out and shoot at him some, usually when his health is critically low so as to not miss the drops.

[Draco208]

They should add some anti aircraft missiles that are able to shoot your aircraft ( that thing that flies you into the mission) causing you to go into this sky diving sequence avoiding bullets, but you can also use those anti-aircraft missiles to slow down the Raptor by making him hurdle down causing him to stall and crash allowing your teammates to shoot him before he fixes himself.

[Ironmzn]

See, I didn't even KNOW THAT EXISTED, but I know that such issues can come up! If I'm losing him even while looking "right at him" or because of his rockets, then there's something that needs to be shifted in some way. 

Yeah i literally cannot tell the difference between dark blue and black

[Drakontis]

 

I would suggest changing the rocket spam the raptor does do orbs like Nova's Antimatter drop, make them slow and make them destroy-able via bullets. For the bombs, much like you said, make them shootable or make them explode prematurely after some time

I understand making them "permanent" but they need to be able to be destroyed. If something does not remove from the field EVER, it becomes overpowered, even if it is balanced if that was not a feature. My best example? Mines in water in Combat Arms. A mine isn't overpowered. Even three isn't overpowered and that's the basic amount you get. But when you set mines in water? They cannot be destroyed until somebody steps on them. There's no counterplay and that is bad design. Same with medkits, which are placeable health that have the same issue. 

[Destro6677]

I would definitely agree with you, I have tried multiple sides of this fight, one with my frost, then banshee and then my basic frames, Excalibur and Mag. It seems the frame requirements are coming through thick and thin, want to do a T3 Defense? Better get frost. Want to do Raptor? Better get frost. Want to freeze that orange flavored water? Better get frost. There needs to be a definite change to stop the frame requirements (And yes, this is coming from a player who would happy give frost some lovin' if he could).

 

I would suggest changing the rocket spam the raptor does do orbs like Nova's Antimatter drop, make them slow and make them destroy-able via bullets. For the bombs, much like you said, make them shootable or make them explode prematurely after some time

The original fan concept of Raptor had him armed with:

 

1. Machine guns like Jackal/Hyena

 

2. Rockets that could be shot down

 

3. Deployable mine ospreys to annoy you

 

In the fan concept, he was just as invulnerable with his wings closed.

 

Just putting it out there.

[DaftMeat]

There's a definite pattern, just not always immediately obvious. You have to fight cautious and stick near cover. Once he starts firing missiles, just hide inside the provided structures until he stops. Repeat.

Having a Frost with Snow Globe right at the door of the glass house is invaluable.

[GrandMasterV]

Just switch teleport him into the center building, and your done.

And that would be a loki, and you can solo easy.

Edited July 20, 2013 by GrandMasterV

[TunaMayo]

Honestly he isn't that difficult if you watch out for the rockets.

 

I would however like some sort of mitigation for rocket damage, or some way to avoid them. I have played as loki with max rush and been unable to dodge them.

 

Perhaps shooting the rockets, or doing acrobatics would mitigate damage? Or even blocking?

 

I like the boss, he is new, not terribly difficult, but I do not like being required to take frost or hide in the middle in order to avoid the rockets, I'd like to be able to outrun them or wall jump away, causing them to hit the wall not me.

 

But then, that's just me and I don't particularly like Vor's "shoot me in the face and wait three times" mechanics. I preferred it when Vor was a challenge.

[Pekku]

Oh come on, put a boss in where you actually need some effort and people start calling it punishing? No. Raptor is fine. You just can't expect the usual stand-and-hold-left-click tactic to succeed is all. I solo'd him for all my Nova parts and I didn't even bring a Frost. He fires his main gun in intervals. Get into cover when he does, then pop out to shoot him. At every 33% of his health he closes his wings, turns invulnerable, and bombards you with missiles. Nothing you can do then, get into cover, plenty of them around. That's how you avoid the missiles, you get into cover. You cannot outrun them and you are not supposed to tank them head on. After that he goes back to normal phase and you just rinse and repeat. How hard was that? Not at all. Was Frost mandatory? Again, no.

 

Sorry for the rant but I'm just sick of seeing lazy players who want something for nothing call this game difficult whereas it's actually at a very good position right now. If anything, it needs to tweak the difficulty up a little more.

[Winterbraid]

Well, other than knockdowns and staggers, insta-death attacks are sort of the only thing that can kill us in this game... Because, y'know, regenerating shields.

 

I agree that an instant death attack as a game mechanic is disputable, but it's also the only thing to remember Raptor by right now. It adds an element of excitement to the battle, you know you have to make the most out of every short period where he's not shooting at you, and your speed and accuracy with your gun is what determines the length of the fight. (Although the existence of Frost admittedly does sort of defeat the point.)

 

Take away his overpowered missile barrage and you get yet another bullet sponge boss like pretty much every other one in the game. (Yeah, that includes even Lech Kril after the update. Previously at least it felt like skill mattered against Kril because it could make the fight faster...)

[Drakontis]

Well, other than knockdowns and staggers, insta-death attacks are sort of the only thing that can kill us in this game... Because, y'know, regenerating shields.

 

I agree that an instant death attack as a game mechanic is disputable, but it's also the only thing to remember Raptor by right now. It adds an element of excitement to the battle, you know you have to make the most out of every short period where he's not shooting at you, and your speed and accuracy with your gun is what determines the length of the fight. (Although the existence of Frost admittedly does sort of defeat the point.)

 

Take away his overpowered missile barrage and you get yet another bullet sponge boss like pretty much every other one in the game. (Yeah, that includes even Lech Kril after the update. Previously at least it felt like skill mattered against Kril because it could make the fight faster...)

 

As DE has admitted, they don't WANT this to be a cover system game. And then they add a boss that requires heavy cover usage or a Frost. Now, I'm all for tactics, I'm all for difficulty, but I'm not for getting one hit killed with every shot. Like I said, that's more about punishment than difficulty. It's just not something I enjoy as much. 

[Pekku]

Having to avoid certain attacks by take cover behind something =/= cover system. Warframe does not have the crouching-behind-chest-high walls system so prominently used in most shooters these days. We still go through most of the game by running and gunning everything. A single boss that requires you to stay behind cover for a certain phase does not making it a cover system game. And you do not get one shotted. A single missile only does 400. Even the weakest of Warframes have the leeway to take 1-2 missiles before you go down. Just learn the fight and move on. You cannot expect every battle to be bullet sponge, pick up loot and sprint to extraction point. Especially not when Warframe needs to progress as a game.

Edit: To OP, it seems like you're avoiding every legit point made and just whining until somebody agrees with you. You cannot hope to be taken seriously when you act like that.

Edited July 21, 2013 by Pekku

[Clessiah]

This is actually one of the problem with games where your shield/health regenerates. An enemy has to deal massive damage in order to become a threat to players.

 

Raptor is indeed a different boss compares to other bosses. I think the problem is that people expect it to be the same. Lotus should have given us more information regarding Raptor, such as "its rapid homing missiles with advanced A.I. have the capability to reach almost perfect accuracy. It is wise to use a cover that can stop attacks from all directions."

[Drakontis]

Having to avoid certain attacks by take cover behind something =/= cover system. Warframe does not have the crouching-behind-chest-high walls system so prominently used in most shooters these days. We still go through most of the game by running and gunning everything. A single boss that requires you to stay behind cover for a certain phase does not making it a cover system game. And you do not get one shotted. A single missile only does 400. Even the weakest of Warframes have the leeway to take 1-2 missiles before you go down. Just learn the fight and move on. You cannot expect every battle to be bullet sponge, pick up loot and sprint to extraction point. Especially not when Warframe needs to progress as a game.

Edit: To OP, it seems like you're avoiding every legit point made and just whining until somebody agrees with you. You cannot hope to be taken seriously when you act like that.

My issue may have largely stemmed from the nightmare mode being on the spot at the time, but in my opinion, it's still ridiculous. And I'm not trying to whine or avoid legitimate points, if I am, it's accidental. 

 

To me, there's a difference in having to dodge versus having to take cover. This game, in my opinion, is more about using the abilities to either remove damage dealers (nukes), avoid damage entirely (Invisibility/SS), or tank damage (Link, Snowglobe, Iron Skin) or getting around the damage with movement, running, shifting position, and is less about moving behind cover and keeping that cover between you and your enemy between firing moments. Raptor, to me, either requires you to use frost or use constant cover, which to me, breaks the tools of the game you're given. It's like somebody gave you a hammer and a screw and told you to get the screw in the wood, sure, you can make it work, but it's not ideal. And maybe I haven't spent enough time fooling with the boss to try and figure things out easier, and I am probably getting put off on trying so with the rather massive damage output he deals every time I go against him. 

I will say that I have heard other options to defeat him. Pulling him into the shelters for example where he can't escape seems exploit-ey to me, but it's still a decent tactic unless/until it's changed. It's just my opinion and why I haven't tried it. I don't want to face tank the boss by any means, but I don't want to be downed for the one second my right pinky toe clips a mine or my left elbow peeks out of cover/snowglobe. 

[Boondorl]

100% agree.

 

When I first fought this boss, I laughed at the sheer amount of damage his missiles did. Same thing when I first stepped on a mine.

 

Normally I would say people over exaggerate too much when they claim certain missions "require" frames. Defense missions are, in fact, possible without a Frost or Vauban.

 

But this is something completely different. This boss truly is impossible without Frost. At least not without taking 30 minutes to beat him. There's no difficulty to him. Just have Frost or die.

 

He needs a rework, like a lot of things in this patch.

[Danakar]

Uhm, couldn't it be that DE put that building in the center there for a reason? Or all those open containers and other structures to hide behind? There's even an underground facility with connecting doorways.

 

Me and my clanmates just run into the building and shoot out from either of the doors. When Raptor fires his missiles we dodge back into the building and the doors close; allowing us to regenerate shields if we got hit.

 

So yeah, it's not a simple 'just stand there and empty clips into it', but to me Raptor feels like a decent boss where you're still allowed to make an occassional mistake. But mashing your mousebutton to fire off rounds whilst standing in the open like a mindless zombie will not work. The environment provides cover and the boss mechanics require you to use the cover on occassion.

 

And regarding that 'Frost is a requirement', with all due respect that's just BS in my humble opinion. We did him with a Rhino, a Mag and a Nyx/Ember/Loki (one of our clanmates just picks a random frame every time). No frame is a requirement for that fight and he's not even that hard. No, to me it looks more like people just want easy loot without needing to put some effort into it.

 

The only thing that matters for this fight is for people to know when to fire, when to take cover and don't step on mines. His high damage is what makes the boss challenging. Reducing its damage would trivialize the entire fight and make it just a speedbump for easy Nova BP's...

 

Just my 2 credits on the matter whilst my own Nova is cooking in the Foundry (1 day 6 hours remaining; but I really hope they fix her neck) ;)

[Pekku]

I am completely blown away by people's inability to understand unique boss fight mechanics. Seriously. It is not as if DE has given all the enemies in the game, Infesteds included, an Ogris and any hope of not dying is to hide behind something all the time. It is a single boss of which part of the BATTLE MECHANIC requires you to take cover. Simple as that. At first the boss fires semi-dodgeable/tankable laser beams. He also drops large, super-obvious glowing mines of which I have no idea why people are even complaining about. When his health drops by 33% he goes into missile barrage mode and you need to take cover for the duration. You don't even need to bring a Frost. If you've played any other MMOs or MMORPGs you'll notice that there's usually something like that. But instead of trying to understand that, people are stubbornly insisting that it's too difficult and refusing to learn the fight. I am baffled and I am done with this topic.

[fatpig84]

Raptor and Jackal both have instagib mechanics.

 

Just that Jackal has "better" gameplay mechanics because if you can instagib his legs fast enough, you won't be facing that flight of air burst missiles.... Which are actually deadlier than the Raptor ones.

[unmog]

You should be able to take a hit without instantly getting downed and then every person who tries to revive you gets downed in turn one after the another in short order. That is ridiculous.

Even more ridiculous is his BP drop rates :p I agree though, too strong, one of the strongest bosses, and its on Europa? Doesn't scale very well with the other enemies.

 

Now that were on the same topic though, Jackals grenades are OP as well, he needs a longer animation before he fires them, and the grenades need to glow or something to let you know where it is. Basically when he fires them, even if you're rhino, with maxed shields and maxed iron skin, and even if your BEHIND the jackal, he'll one shot you and do litterally no damage to himself. The blast radius is huge too, can one shot an entire team without anyone even understanding what happened. Pretty unfair considering you can only do like 100 damage to him at a time before he gets up again.

 

Still, I'd have to say that I still dislike the Jackal more than I dislike Raptor. At least Raptor doesnt have a ton of invincibility frames... yet... >.>

[TheHeraldXII]

Yeah i literally cannot tell the difference between dark blue and black

I got fooled too....

 

On topic, yeah, the Raptor pretty much seems like a half-hearted attempt to make a difficult boss. Sure he does lots of damage with very few ways to mitigate it, but that just makes it punishing, not challenging. The barrage of missiles during his invuln. cycle is just BS. First he can target invisible units, then it does 250-300 damage a hit from what I've experienced and the home in for some reason. High Damage. Homing. Area of Effect. You may pick 2 without it becoming total nonsense.

However, once you find the secret to this fight, it's more tedious than actually difficult. Stand behind a crate on the opposite side of the map from it-> wallrun up-> shoot him until you're at about 1/3 shield-> drop behind the crate. Then you repeat this process for about 5 minutes against a boss that has undamagable parts that constantly move while it jitters about.

Frost isn't a requirement, but it sure does make it faster. Maybe Saryn could use it's spores to poison it super quickly and then hide.

[Roltair]

I'm not sure how much shields/HP people run with but I don't really find that Raptor one shots me.

I don't really consider myself elite but I don't know that I really consider Raptor a challenge either. I'll admit out of all the bosses I'm most likely to die against it but I don't think it's hard. I just solo'd it with Ash. Yeah Ash is a Warframe that can easier deal with avoiding high amounts of damage than other frames but Ash still isn't Frost.

 

I haven't played many other frames, I haven't studied other frames enough to give suggestions on how to go about using them against Raptor, but I think with enough creativity people can find ways to make use of other frames to make Raptor not seem so challenging.

 

DE works hard and they and we know not everything they put out is perfect but I think we should put a bit more time and effort into trying to figure out how to utilize all frames for various different aspects as best we can. These things won't always come in a matter of hours or even days but I feel like if we focused on that they could spent more time working on other things we want released and/or fixed.