Should passive energy regeneration be a norm for our Warframes? (Like Archwing)

[letir]

Just now, phoenix1992 said:

You did not answer the question.
Is it okay that builds that never did use EO either due to lack of need for it, or flat out not working (any toogle frame), will get a global nerf, but heavy energy consumers builds (and the "Builds" that are not actually builds, but just lazy way of playing the game) may not, based on topics like that?  
I am not saying that Shadowstep is okay to exist, I am saying that in the last week I have seen a lot of claims for "Please let Zenurik stay" (or, you know segway topics like this one) that are not based on actual need, but on greed, entitlement and selfishness.  
Passive Energy regen - sure, whatever as long as it is tied to a decent alternative that fits people with alternative play styles and the fact that DE has made more than one frame that can't use Zenurik due to toggle abilities.

Every thread like this based on greed, favoritism for certain fraimes and love for mindless ability spam. What's wrong with that? We drop "energy balance" and "frame equality" out of the window with introduction of Fleeting Exercise anyway. Game won't die with or without EO, the same way it didn't die with introduction of the Corrupted mods.

[LokiTheCondom]

4 minutes ago, phoenix1992 said:

Implying that different amount of efforts should give the same rewards.  Be "casual" as much as you like, don't expect to get the same results as people that are not

Apparently players that do not use a passive that could be as measly as 2 energy regeneration per second use more "effort" than players who do.

Dang Trinity oughta be locked out from rewards too if that's the case.

[phoenix1992]

3 minutes ago, LokiTheCondom said:

Apparently players that do not use a passive that could be as measly as 2 energy regeneration per second use more "effort" than players who do.

Dang Trinity oughta be locked out from rewards too if that's the case.

Trinity does not work with toggle abilities. Good that you know how game mechanics work and how changing them effects the global player base.

 

4 minutes ago, letir said:

Every thread like this based on greed, favoritism for certain fraimes and love for mindless ability spam. What's wrong with that? We drop "energy balance" and "frame equality" out of the window with introduction of Fleeting Exercise anyway. Game won't die with or without EO, the same way it didn't die with introduction of the Corrupted mods.

It is not "wrong" as long as there is more than "one mod", "one weapon" and so on. Corrupted mods come in all shapes and sizes for example, same for syndicate procs and so on.  

[LokiTheCondom]

Just now, phoenix1992 said:

Trinity does not work with toggle abilities. Good that you know how game mechanics work and how changing them effects the global player base.

Energy regeneration doesn't work with toggle abilities either, what's your point?

[letir]

Just now, phoenix1992 said:

It is not "wrong" as long as there is more than "one mod", "one weapon" and so on. Corrupted mods come in all shapes and sizes for example, same for syndicate procs and so on.  

Corrupted mods make huge splits in frame's equality and build variability. Some builds can use them without big downsides, others even become stronger from drawbacks. Nobody complainng much about them.

[phoenix1992]

9 minutes ago, LokiTheCondom said:

Energy regeneration doesn't work with toggle abilities either, what's your point?

My point is that both Trinity and Energy Regeneration does not work with multiple frames and builds. Focus 1.0 is crap for balance but at least gives some alternative options to the same builds and frames.  
Do not assume that I care if a Loki (Example, to some extend triggered because I see your profile picture) can have 99% invisible rate with decent Energy Regen. Have it your way considering that. The underline issue is that all those topics center about those builds and frames, and ignore that 35-40% (if not more, can't remember all abilities on prima vista) of the frames utilize toggle abilities and demand a change based on that. 

6 minutes ago, letir said:

Corrupted mods make huge splits in frame's equality and build variability. Some builds can use them without big downsides, others even become stronger from drawbacks. Nobody complainng much about them.

I repeat, again since you don't seem to read the part : There is a big difference between having alternatives in spades, and not having any alternatives at all.  "Game balance" as we knew it went off the window long time ago.

Edited September 20, 2017 by phoenix1992

[RX-3DR]

9 minutes ago, letir said:

Corrupted mods make huge splits in frame's equality and build variability. Some builds can use them without big downsides, others even become stronger from drawbacks. Nobody complainng much about them.

They cost mod capacity, a slot on your Warframe which means losing out on something, and a penalty. Your build is an example. You have Fleeting Expertise but you do not benefit from high Power Efficiency. Right now, people are using the removal of Zenurik as an excuse to push passive energy regeneration outside of any system. This is very much like asking for a free increase of 30% of all Impact, Slash and Puncture damage across the board on all weapons because of the removal of Marudai's focus passive.

Edited September 20, 2017 by Flandyrll

[phoenix1992]

8 minutes ago, Flandyrll said:

They cost mod capacity, a slot on your Warframe which means losing out on something, and a penalty. Your build is an example. You have Fleeting Expertise but you do not benefit from high Power Efficiency. Right now, people are using the removal of Zenurik as an excuse to push passive energy regeneration outside of any system. This is very much like asking for a free increase of 30% of all Impact, Slash and Puncture damage across the board on all weapons because of the removal of Marudai's focus passive.

Which comes on top of the fact, that this is not Zenurik.
You worked for Zenurik, you were also limited in the situations in which you could use it - only unlimited runs + some boss fights. This topic is plea for a free buff.

[letir]

Just now, Flandyrll said:

They cost mod capacity, a slot on your Warframe which means losing out on something, and a penalty. Your build is an example. You have Fleeting Expertise but you do not benefit from high Power Efficiency. Right now, people are using the removal of Zenurik as an excuse to push passive energy regeneration outside of any system. This is very much like asking for a free increase of 30% of all Impact, Slash and Puncture damage across the board on all weapons because of the removal of Marudai's focus passive.

I want a free increase of energy regeneration. It's zero by default. I don't even know why Warframe dosen't have some amount of health regen, energy regen, vacuum and enemy radar by default.

Just now, phoenix1992 said:

I repeat, again since you don't seem to read the part : There is a big difference between having alternatives in spades, and not having any alternatives at all.  "Game balance" as we knew it went off the window long time ago.

There is a big difference between having viable energy hungry build for any player or make them restricted to party with Trinity.

[LokiTheCondom]

3 minutes ago, phoenix1992 said:

My point is that both Trinity and Energy Regeneration does not work with multiple frames and builds. Focus 1.0 is crap for balance but at least gives some alternative options to the same builds and frames.  
Do not assume that I care if a Loki (Example, to some extend triggered because I see your profile picture) can have 99% invisible rate with decent Energy Regen. Have it your way considering that. The underline issue is that all those topics center about those builds and frames, and ignore that 35-40% (if not more, can't remember all abilities on prima vista) of the frames utilize toggle abilities and demand a change based on that. 

Well to be fair I don't even main Loki, I just pick this picture because it goes with the name. If anything I have a knack for using frames with toggled abilities.

Back to topic. I'm not trying to focus on any specific frame at the moment. You're right that several frames have toggle skills, but many more don't, and toggle skill frames benefit much from energy regeneration to start using their skills faster since their activation energy is lower, should your build not be optimized for said skill to last forever. (eg: Mesa)

Fun fact: Did you know the more free mod capacity you have, the more starting energy you'll have at the beginning of the mission? This encourages player to 10-forma their Warframes.

[RX-3DR]

29 minutes ago, letir said:

I want a free increase of energy regeneration. It's zero by default. I don't even know why Warframe dosen't have some amount of health regen, energy regen, vacuum and enemy radar by default.

There is a big difference between having viable energy hungry build for any player or make them restricted to party with Trinity.

It's called Energy Siphon. Those things are not given by default because it diminishes the value of their already existing counterparts. In the case of Energy and Health regeneration, they provide a base line incentive for very passive play revolving around waiting for that regeneration. Vacuum and Enemy Radar are purely quality of life systems so there is no necessity to have them implemented as a basic. There's a lot more complexity that goes into all of these, too small of a value and they would serve no purpose. Too high of a value and their existing counterparts become questionable. Scaling everything in response to it can potentially break certain aspects of the game. Ultimately, it's the developer's choice on what they see as integral and what is merely a convenience.

The problem with energy hungry builds is the same as high-fire rate Grakata builds. They are not designed to be sustainable on their own. 

Edited September 20, 2017 by Flandyrll

[Lady_Xenomorph]

Siphon needs some buff to give 1-1.5 energy but a passive energy regen don't hurt the game flow since we have energy leech eximuses and their amount of energy drain / sec is high enough so you cannot with a full team of siphons balance that so anyway you need to kill those to stop the drain. 

The health regen also would be nice because the warframes are supposed to be a super armors with mix of living and non living material, also we have revives in matches so why would be troublesome the passive hp and energy level when the enemies can take your hp so fast. The auras are nice team buffs but not everyone want to rely on these so add as a passive ability could balance the non users because you gain fix amount. 

The auras just give extra but that is just an option so it won't be op at all. Also there are some auras which needs some tweaks or reworks because very bad alternatives and almost noone use them.

[HowlAtTheMoon]

10 hours ago, Flandyrll said:

There is a very big difference between "I don't think this should be a quality of life change because it is bad for the overall health of the game" and "I think we need this quality of life because I want it." There is a reason why people aren't asking for more mods like Serration and Hornet Strike.

The comparison to Vacuum is not a very good comparison. Vacuum was made into a mod but it is still a mod. It cannot be used on Kubrows and Kavaats. There is a cost associated to it and it is not a quality of life that only a select group benefits from. Passive energy regeneration as an automatic system would have no cost associated to it and really only helps people who run extremely power hungry builds by choice. Instead, this is closer to the Tonkor issue since no self-damage is a quality of life that only affects the group of people using it in a certain manner.

The false equivalency of comparing it to mods is that mods have choices, little alternatives and a cost associated with them. You are paying mod slots, mod capacity and thus, potentially losing out in other areas by using things like Reload Speed and Punch-Through mods. There is no other alternatives around it, you cannot use consumables to bolster reload speed and you cannot build reload efficiency. If Energy Siphon is improved instead, it would still take up your only Aura slot and that brings in choices between it and other Auras such as Corrosive Projection, something a free system completely ignores.

Your opinion offers nothing constructive. It is selfish demand for the game to conform to your desires and pointing fingers at anyone against you and calling them entitled whiners. 

What an idiot, you genuinely treat my argument like it's not one that could possibly entertain the idea of a buff to Energy Siphon while spouting off about how it would "have no cost".

Let's compare it to Ammo Mutation since you're so fond of being petty about the efficacy of an analogy. Ammo Mutation is seldom used because of Ammo Case and Ammo Pads, but it is more effective than either of those at doing what it does. Energy Siphon, however, is the least efficient method of regenerating energy in the game. You may as well be arguing that Ammo case should be nerfed into the ground (To the standard of Energy Siphon) and then have Ammo Mutation removed from the game. 

 

But fine, you think I offer nothing constructive and that I'm selfish, learn to use a mirror you prick. I've got nothing more to say to you.

[LokiTheCondom]

Let's remain respectful and civil here before this thread is locked.

[RX-3DR]

38 minutes ago, HowlAtTheMoon said:

What an idiot, you genuinely treat my argument like it's not one that could possibly entertain the idea of a buff to Energy Siphon while spouting off about how it would "have no cost".

Let's compare it to Ammo Mutation since you're so fond of being petty about the efficacy of an analogy. Ammo Mutation is seldom used because of Ammo Case and Ammo Pads, but it is more effective than either of those at doing what it does. Energy Siphon, however, is the least efficient method of regenerating energy in the game. You may as well be arguing that Ammo case should be nerfed into the ground (To the standard of Energy Siphon) and then have Ammo Mutation removed from the game. 

 

But fine, you think I offer nothing constructive and that I'm selfish, learn to use a mirror you prick. I've got nothing more to say to you.

Except from the first post, "do you think it's better if passive energy regeneration becomes available to all Warframes similar to our Archwings?" The topic is about passive energy regeneration being universal to all Warframes. Therefore, any mentions about implementing energy regeneration is tied to the original topic that it should be a basic system at no cost. You made no mention of Energy Siphon, you merely mouthed off that anyone who disagrees with the topic are entitled whiners. You have made absolutely no attempt to explain that energy regeneration is justifiably essential to the game. Pointing to another person and saying that he has 2 cars doesn't mean you should be given another car.

Ammo and energy are not meant to be the same resource. They function to different effect and are managed differently. However, the core concept is still similar because they are limited resources that you have to manage during combat. We are once again demanding that an apple be the size of a watermelon simply because some people enjoy eating apples over watermelons. Ammo Mutation is not commonly used because people are aware that losing a mod slot on your weapon can make a huge difference, something passive energy regeneration as a basic mechanic does not do. The whole debate against this topic is that energy regeneration is a luxury and that there is no need for it to become a basic mechanic to the game because of a specific group. To be exact, if we're going to go into the topic of Ammo Mutation, Ammo Cases and Ammo Pads. It does not work in your favor to begin with. This whole topic is easily made redundant if everyone used Energy Restores. 

I am not against other forms of energy regeneration but I believe passive energy regeneration given to everyone is a terrible idea and that the game should not specifically cater to an extreme group who, by their own decision, put all their eggs onto a single basket and want a safety net for it. It should have some level of input or cost involved for a reasonable output. 

Edited September 20, 2017 by Flandyrll

[Rakosta_Kai]

An energy recovery passive should have been a Mastery Rank award in the first place (along with a number of other things including Vacuum).

All EO did was band-aid an issue that had been lingering for a while now.

In the interim a few things happened that no one seems to have given much thought too...

• The mats for large energy pads don't drop in the quantities they used to.
• Disrupters don't drain as often,  but eximus leeches appear with more regularity now too.
• There are now modes that force low energy conditions and Eximus modes that force zero energy conditions regularly.

It's edgy to say "We don't need it" but what's actually meant is... "I don't need it, so you shouldn't have it".

I don't think Energy Overflow's absence (not even sure if it will be absent, tbh... I fully expect them to make a brand new grind track to get some measure of it back) will break the game but I do think people have the right to be annoyed about its' removal. 

 

[letir]

1 hour ago, Flandyrll said:

It's called Energy Siphon. Those things are not given by default because it diminishes the value of their already existing counterparts. In the case of Energy and Health regeneration, they provide a base line incentive for very passive play revolving around waiting for that regeneration. Vacuum and Enemy Radar are purely quality of life systems so there is no necessity to have them implemented as a basic. There's a lot more complexity that goes into all of these, too small of a value and they would serve no purpose. Too high of a value and their existing counterparts become questionable. Scaling everything in response to it can potentially break certain aspects of the game. Ultimately, it's the developer's choice on what they see as integral and what is merely a convenience.

The problem with energy hungry builds is the same as high-fire rate Grakata builds. They are not designed to be sustainable on their own. Qo

It's called "basic QoL things, which DE dosen't give players for years, because f**ck you". Stuff like "full health" or "full energy" should be accesible for a newbies from a get go. It's not a freaking privilege, it's just basic thing, which everyone should have for free. Yet in WarFrame it's buried under hours of grinding and crafting activity.

Mandatory aura just to get access to energy income and actually use your abilities. In the game about magical ninjas. Yeah.

 

Just because something "designed that way" dosen't mean that it's good. Bad design is a real thing.

Edited September 20, 2017 by letir

[LokiTheCondom]

Just now, letir said:

It's called "basic QoL things, which DE dosen't give players for years, because f**ck you". Stuff like "full health" or "full energy" should be accesible for a newbies from a get go. It's not a freaking privilege, it's just basic thing, which everyone should have for free. Yet in WarFrame it's buried under hours of grinding and crafting activity.

Mandatory aura just to get access to energy income and actually use your abilities. In the game about magical ninjas. Yeah.

Just because something "designed that way" dosen't mean that it's good. Bad design is a real thing.

Pardon me for intruding the discussion between you two, but don't we technically have full health at the start? Or am I missing something here.

[letir]

Just now, LokiTheCondom said:

Pardon me for intruding the discussion between you two, but don't we technically have full health at the start? Or am I missing something here.

Well, you can miss some of your health. Beacuse you are newbie, who tend to make mistakes. Or because unavoidable BS like Slash proc from hitscan weapons, because reasons. At this point you a bascially screwed for the rest of the mission, which feels annoying and undeserved.

Good games can give you medkit or random red vial. Warframe dosen't give a S#&$, because red orb droprate wasn't fixed from open beta.

[LokiTheCondom]

Just now, letir said:

Well, you can miss some of your health. Beacuse you are newbie, who tend to make mistakes. Or because unavoidable BS like Slash proc from hitscan weapons, because reasons. At this point you a bascially screwed for the rest of the mission, which feels annoying and undeserved.

Good games can give you medkit or random red vial. Warframe dosen't give a S#&$, because red orb droprate wasn't fixed from open beta.

Ah I see. Those old health restores are still in the game at least, but not in the ways that some would appreciate lol.

Carry on.

[phoenix1992]

6 minutes ago, letir said:

Well, you can miss some of your health. Beacuse you are newbie, who tend to make mistakes. Or because unavoidable BS like Slash proc from hitscan weapons, because reasons. At this point you a bascially screwed for the rest of the mission, which feels annoying and undeserved.

Good games can give you medkit or random red vial. Warframe dosen't give a S#&$, because red orb droprate wasn't fixed from open beta.

Arguable, we have come leaps in the Health Restore functions since... let's say u14. Healing Return, Life strike and Medi Kit have helped the health fatigue damage in most cases (unless t3 sorties, in which you will just go belly up).

[RX-3DR]

11 minutes ago, letir said:

It's called "basic QoL things, which DE dosen't give players for years, because f**ck you". Stuff like "full health" or "full energy" should be accesible for a newbies from a get go. It's not a freaking privilege, it's just basic thing, which everyone should have for free. Yet in WarFrame it's buried under hours of grinding and crafting activity.

Mandatory aura just to get access to energy income and actually use your abilities. In the game about magical ninjas. Yeah.

 

Just because something "designed that way" dosen't mean that it's good. Bad design is a real thing.

It varies from game to game. Just because this game does not use the common full health regeneration mechanic doesn't mean that one is better than the other. Quality of life has to be measured within the game's context. Making comparisons to quality of life outside of the game's context is going to create a game that just plays itself. Energy Siphon and Rejuvenation are not mandatory for anything, they are conveniences to counteract very specific scenarios. Even if the game is about magical ninjas(It's not) or advertised like one, there still has to be some standard of gameplay that the developer wants. Not all games are designed to be extremely gratifying and easy to play.

2 minutes ago, letir said:

Well, you can miss some of your health. Beacuse you are newbie, who tend to make mistakes. Or because unavoidable BS like Slash proc from hitscan weapons, because reasons. At this point you a bascially screwed for the rest of the mission, which feels annoying and undeserved.

Good games can give you medkit or random red vial. Warframe dosen't give a S#&$, because red orb droprate wasn't fixed from open beta.

Red Orbs are only dropped from specific enemies and containers to prevent the problem of high Armor and Health frames becoming vampires that survive endlessly from health drops. This is already quite a visible problem with Inaros, Chroma and Nidus and making Health drops more plentiful to help new players will only aggravate the situation. This would also create a bigger divide on teamwork by diminishing the purpose of healing abilities. Part of the game is learning to deal with situations like this. This means carefully avoiding taking health damage, some manner of lifesteal, health regeneration/recovery or consumables. 

[CaliburxZero]

1 hour ago, Padre_Akais said:

 

It's edgy to say "We don't need it" but what's actually meant is... "I don't need it, so you shouldn't have it".

I think this sums up alot a bit of people commenting on the subject nicely, and I don't necessarily mean this particular thread either.

[letir]

Just now, phoenix1992 said:

Arguable, we have come leaps in the Health Restore functions since... let's say u14. Healing Return, Life strike and Medi Kit have helped the health fatigue damage in most cases (unless t3 sorties, in which you will just go belly up).

Yet none of this is option for the beginners.

Rejuvenation is random.

Healt Pads are costly and requre to stand still.

Health Restore are accesible for a beginners, but require soooo much plant scanning.

Life Strike is very rare drop, and isn't working without energy.

Med Kit is another rare drop. locked behind too many walls to be useful.

Syndicate's healing weapon demand many hours of grind or plat.

 

The only real options for the beginner is Oberon or Valkyr. Both need energy for healing.

[letir]

Just now, Flandyrll said:

It varies from game to game. Just because this game does not use the common full health regeneration mechanic doesn't mean that one is better than the other. Quality of life has to be measured within the game's context. Making comparisons to quality of life outside of the game's context is going to create a game that just plays itself. Energy Siphon and Rejuvenation are not mandatory for anything, they are conveniences to counteract very specific scenarios. Even if the game is about magical ninjas(It's not) or advertised like one, there still has to be some standard of gameplay that the developer wants. Not all games are designed to be extremely gratifying and easy to play.

Red Orbs are only dropped from specific enemies and containers to prevent the problem of high Armor and Health frames becoming vampires that survive endlessly from health drops. This is already quite a visible problem with Inaros, Chroma and Nidus and making Health drops more plentiful to help new players will only aggravate the situation. This would also create a bigger divide on teamwork by diminishing the purpose of healing abilities. Part of the game is learning to deal with situations like this. This means carefully avoiding taking health damage, some manner of lifesteal, health regeneration/recovery or consumables. 

Health and Energy regeneration are mandatory for sucessful gameplay in Warframe. Just because veterans have many alternatives and can simply overpower content dosen't mean that they aren't necessary.

Red Orbs droprate are S#&$ty because developers are never adjust them properly. Simple as that. Veterans with Rage/Lifestrake alredy making health tanks extremly powerful, measy 25 HP won't change anything.

 

And yes, I am measuring QoL features within game content. These things can make WarFrame much more noob-friendly and allow newbies to progress game easer. Newbies alredy have enough problems with map progression and RNG over mandatory mods, @#&$-blocking them from such important features is just stupid.

Just because pricks like you talking about "we don't need it" dosen't mean anything. 80-90% of playerbase used Carrier (with Vacuum), but every single thread about Universal Vacuum have plenty of "I don't use Vacuum at all, git gud", "It's design choice", and so on.