Sniper Rework Idea Compendium

[Bryntwulf]

I believe there is a lot of room for improvement for the sniper category of weapons, but there's a lot of different opinions on how they should be done. With this forum thread, I intend to condense what I believe to be the most viable methods of reworking snipers into a more usable form for gameplay both in and outside of The Plains of Eidolon. I will be listing them in no particular order as most, if not all, suggestions I will be adding here are equally well-thought out. With each method, I will be including a link to a thread where the specific topic was discussed in greater depth if applicable. I am not advocating for all of these to be implemented, I am merely placing suggestions in a single place so that at they may be seen again. 

1. Remove Scope Sway
     Scope Sway for sniper rifles was introduced in U18, along with a number of small buffs to Sniper Mechanics in the form of a Combo Counter, and a variable scope buff specific to each Sniper Rifle. The sway was intended to balance out the straight buffs in this update, although those buffs were already not significant enough to bring Sniper Rifles to a point where they were satisfying to use. 

2. Increase Hip-Fire Accuracy
     A secondary problem that was packaged with U18 was a massive reduction in hip-fire accuracy. This was briefly spoken about in the previously mentioned thread. Hip-firing a sniper rifle is generally done in order to deal with enemies that are within 15 feet of the player, where a sniper rifle is used in a manner akin to a shotgun. The massive reduction in hip-fire accuracy has made this feat far less effective, even for the most accurate of players. 

3. Increase Damage
     In every thread on sniper rifles, you will generally find at least one complaint about the player-bases general dissatisfaction with the damage dealt by Sniper Rifles. Often cited is the fact that a shotgun such as the Tigris series is generally a more much effective "sniper rifle", as it can reliably take out a single target with a single shot at a decent distance. I will not be adding a link to any specific threads for this, but I will elaborate. While Sniper Rifles are effective in normal play, they do not reliably deal enough damage in a single shot to take out larger targets, and as players reach level 60 enemies, a non-crit will often cease to put down an enemy in a single shot, putting them behind any weapon that can fire more quickly or crit more reliably. Increasing the base damage of all sniper rifles by about 50% would help to mitigate this problem. 

4. Increase Critical Chance and Critical Damage
     Sniper Rifles, in their purest form, are single-target, long-range, high-damage weapons designed to pinpoint a target's vitals, and hit them as hard as possible where it hurts most. The general idea behind critical shots is that you have managed to hit them in a vital area, dealing massive damage. Sounds like a match made in heaven for the two weapon types. From what I've seen, the majority of the community agrees that critical chance and damage should be increased substantially. More specifically, many ask for the Sniper Rifles to out-crit Bows, since it would make more sense. I personally believe that Sniper Rifles should gain an additive +100% crit chance on headshots, as it would incentivise a sniper playstyle. 

 

5. Shot-Counter Rework
     While the shot counter for Sniper Rifles was interesting, it is counter-intuitive to the act of sniping itself. Generally when sniping, you will take a moment in order to line up the perfect shot, however the timed shot counter pushes players away from sniping. It fails to reward players who take their time to line up a good shot, and instead punishes those who miss their intended target. There are dozens of suggestions for how this system should be reworked, such as in the previously linked Thread's "Token System". The majority of threads will unanimously advise that the timer should be removed, and the punishment for a missed shot be removed, instead opting for the firing chain ending upon changing your weapon, or by firing the weapon without using the scope. The article below, while dealing with the ideas of adding a new mechanic to Sniper Rifles, goes into great depth on the issue and why these changes need to be made.

6. Increase Punchthrough
     Sniper Rifles are generally extremely powerful rifles designed to bypass armored plating, walls, and anything else that stands between you and your intended target. Much like damage increases, innate punchthrough on all Sniper Rifles, much like the Snipertron does, is one of the most desired changes to Sniper Rifles, and pops up in nearly every sniper thread. 

7. More Sniper-Specific Mods
     Sniper Rifles got a little taste of this through exclusive mods such as "Charged Chamber", and "Depleted Reload", and those mods became a staple in most sniper modding. It is no surprise that many players have seen this as an avenue for Sniper Buffs. These suggested mods include:
-Increased Damage while scoped.
-Increase Critical Chance and Damage on Headshots
-Stat Increases
-Conclave Mods made available for non-Conclave play
-Homing Shots

8. New Mechanics
     The most common type of change request is the addition of new mechanics. These can vary greatly, but are always something that will require a large amount of work on DE's part in order to implement. I have compiled a number of those that I consider to be either the very best, or those that create a great conversation about the subject, below.
-Add Scisio Mechanics to Sniper Rifles. 

-Shot Tokens 

-Customizable Scopes 

 

-Scope Mods- My own idea. Instead of picking which sniper rifle to use based on the scope bonus it has, allowing the players to choose their scope bonus through modding would solve the scope bonus issue, at least. It would require that a new slot on sniper rifles be added, similar to an aura, and each scope effect would need to be made into a mod. Doing so would make them a unique experience to mod, and encourage build diversity.  

9. Finisher Damage on Headshots
     I found this nice little solution while surfing the comments in the threads above. It really makes Headshots from sniper rifles a force to be reckoned with, and bypasses the issue of Warframes high-level armor scaling. 

10. The Shotgun Treatment
     Lastly, one solution for fixing Sniper Rifles is to give them the Shotgun treatment by removing them from the standard rifle mod pool, and instead giving them their own sniper-specific mod set. One complaint I've heard when buffing Sniper Rifles is that adding new mods to rebalance them comes with the issue that mods that arent specific to Sniper Rifles may unbalance them. Giving them their own mod set would be a long rework to do, and may even put some strain on DE, but it would be the most concise way of fixing the problem. New mods in a contained environment for each above issue would solve everything. 



If you happen to find any threads that deal with these issues, or new and interesting issues, please post below! What do you think should be done about the current state of Sniper Rifles? 

Edited September 21, 2017 by KyoBladezen

[GrimAtrament]

i agree with sniper rifles getting there own mods at some point bows should as well as sorties treat them as different.

 

however to fix the sniperrifles they should just get the Arca Sissco treatment where they don't lose stacks on unscoped or misses 

[Faulcun]

I dont even know where to begin on this thread.... so ill just disagree with everything except maybe punchthrough.

Ive been an avid sniper user in this game for the last 4 years. I cant even describe how inaccurate and insane some of these suggestions are, especially since we have riven mods now.

Not everybody can pick up a sniper rifle in this game and wreck face.. I get that. But that doesnt mean people shouldnt have to put in proper time and gain some experience either. I think these suggestions only convolute very simple weapons to begin with, for the purpose of making them as easy to use as shotguns? Seriously? Homing shots?

This isnt even elitism. This is realism. Snipers already increase damage or crit chance on zoom, and further increase damage on consecutive shots. Start adding in headshots for double damage..... I am not unaccustomed to seeing 500k+ critical hits on a regular basis. Sniper rifles are already among the most powerful weapons in the game.

Edited September 21, 2017 by Faulcun

[Gweredith]

45 minutes ago, Faulcun said:

I dont even know where to begin on this thread.... so ill just disagree with everything except maybe punchthrough.

Ive been an avid sniper user in this game for the last 4 years. I cant even describe how inaccurate and insane some of these suggestions are, especially since we have riven mods now.

Not everybody can pick up a sniper rifle in this game and wreck face.. I get that. But that doesnt mean people shouldnt have to put in proper time and gain some experience either. I think these suggestions only convolute very simple weapons to begin with, for the purpose of making them as easy to use as shotguns? Seriously? Homing shots?

This isnt even elitism. This is realism. Snipers already increase damage or crit chance on zoom, and further increase damage on consecutive shots. Start adding in headshots for double damage..... I am not unaccustomed to seeing 500k+ critical hits on a regular basis. Sniper rifles are already among the most powerful weapons in the game.

Lanka isn't the only sniper. Doubt you would achieve that much damage with a different sniper and on highly armored enemies without tons of buffs, which is probably the main reason you even reached 500k.

[Faulcun]

1 minute ago, Gweredith said:

Lanka isn't the only sniper. Doubt you would achieve that much damage with a different sniper and on highly armored enemies without tons of buffs, which is probably the main reason you even reached 500k.

Of course it isnt. I just happen to enjoy it the most because it isnt hitscan like all the others. I like the charge mechanics and having to lead my shots because of travel time. I enjoy bows for the same reasons. All of my sniper rifles are fully modded however and perform just as well. The amount of damage all of them deal far exceeds any normal content including sorties.

The vectis, vulkar wraith, and snipetron vandal all regularly clear 300k damage with consistent gameplay. Is 50k damage not enough? is 100k damage not enough? I mean you can clear 100k damage with any sniper easy... How much damage is just right? Enemies die in one shot way more often than they dont.

[Bryntwulf]

13 hours ago, Faulcun said:

I dont even know where to begin on this thread.... so ill just disagree with everything except maybe punchthrough.

Ive been an avid sniper user in this game for the last 4 years. I cant even describe how inaccurate and insane some of these suggestions are, especially since we have riven mods now.

Not everybody can pick up a sniper rifle in this game and wreck face.. I get that. But that doesnt mean people shouldnt have to put in proper time and gain some experience either. I think these suggestions only convolute very simple weapons to begin with, for the purpose of making them as easy to use as shotguns? Seriously? Homing shots?

This isnt even elitism. This is realism. Snipers already increase damage or crit chance on zoom, and further increase damage on consecutive shots. Start adding in headshots for double damage..... I am not unaccustomed to seeing 500k+ critical hits on a regular basis. Sniper rifles are already among the most powerful weapons in the game.

Okay, so you disagree with a large amount of the community. That's fine. 

I've also been an avid sniper user since I joined 3 years ago, with the Vectis being my most used. Most of the suggestions are a bit odd, or overboard, sure, I can agree with that. However, I am personally on board for a combination of #4, #5, and #6, as well as scope mods, as I am aware that while they can be good, they are not reliably good. Riven mods cant really be taken into balance, as the disposition system balances them for however bad DE may believe them to be, and sniper rifle rivens are only as common as sniper rifles themselves are. 

At this point, I personally dont bring sniper rifles into sorties, despite having a half-decent riven for my Vectis, simply for the fact that they often fail to kill in one shot, and weapons such as the Zarr rarely ever fail. The scope effects are fine, and should stay, however, I believe that the combo counter is counter-intuitive for a sniping playstyle, and needs to be reworked. Putting a timer on how long a player can have on lining up on the perfect shot, and punishing them for either taking too long or missing their shot by removing all progress is a terrible implementation of the system. As of right now, Sniper Rifles have potential, but they are far from being among the most powerful in the game, due to an inability to bypass large amounts of armor, slow fire rate, and mediocre damage outside of headshots or the use of Harrow. 

Also, I dont think I ever stated that I wanted them to be as easy to use as shotguns. I only explained that hip-fired Sniper Rifle shots are generally used in other games in a manner akin to a shotgun, and that the general consensus is that the Tigris series of shotguns is seen as a better "Sniper Rifle" than the actual Sniper Rifles. 

[Faulcun]

39 minutes ago, KyoBladezen said:

Okay, so you disagree with a large amount of the community. That's fine. 

I've also been an avid sniper user since I joined 3 years ago, with the Vectis being my most used. Most of the suggestions are a bit odd, or overboard, sure, I can agree with that. However, I am personally on board for a combination of #4, #5, and #6, as well as scope mods, as I am aware that while they can be good, they are not reliably good. Riven mods cant really be taken into balance, as the disposition system balances them for however bad DE may believe them to be, and sniper rifle rivens are only as common as sniper rifles themselves are. 

At this point, I personally dont bring sniper rifles into sorties, despite having a half-decent riven for my Vectis, simply for the fact that they often fail to kill in one shot, and weapons such as the Zarr rarely ever fail. The scope effects are fine, and should stay, however, I believe that the combo counter is counter-intuitive for a sniping playstyle, and needs to be reworked. Putting a timer on how long a player can have on lining up on the perfect shot, and punishing them for either taking too long or missing their shot by removing all progress is a terrible implementation of the system. As of right now, Sniper Rifles have potential, but they are far from being among the most powerful in the game, due to an inability to bypass large amounts of armor, slow fire rate, and mediocre damage outside of headshots or the use of Harrow. 

Also, I dont think I ever stated that I wanted them to be as easy to use as shotguns. I only explained that hip-fired Sniper Rifle shots are generally used in other games in a manner akin to a shotgun, and that the general consensus is that the Tigris series of shotguns is seen as a better "Sniper Rifle" than the actual Sniper Rifles. 

The reason I disagree with a large amount of the community is because a large amount of the community does not have ~1040 hours of mission time with snipers like I do (33.7% of my total mission time which is around 3080). The large portion of the community tries it once or twice and never touches it again save for the occasional sortie condition if they even play at that level.

My argument is that all of the higher end rifles (lanka, snipetron v., both vectis, and vulkar wraith) can be used easily in sorties. By easily I mean for somebody already comfortable with the sniper playstyle to begin with. For all other content, every sniper is perfectly capable of completing with proper modding even without rivens.

The rivens cannot be overlooked because if you spend enough time with one, you can roll an insane stat set tailored to exactly what you want. I have one on my lanka that starts me at 100k damage on the first shot. Ive broken 1 million damage on a number of occasions with that riven on. Its completely useless damage, but the point is a riven can change one of those weapons into something ridiculous. Im currently rolling one for my vulkar waith as well, and i have one for the snipetron that i havent started messing with yet.

Aside from all that, im not opposed to scope mods except for homing shots or any mod that does the work for you. Thats not what snipers are about.

I think there has to be limits on how long you take to make a shot. I dont think somebody should be able to spend 2 hours in a mission taking their sweet time to rack up a combo by maybe only taking 30 shots, and then one shot lephantis or something. There has to be a reasonable limit. However, I dont think you should lose your counter when you hip fire though.... If you miss, yes. But if you make the shot, especially with the huge accuracy penalty, you should keep your combo.

On top of that, people who are using the right rifle for the type of enemy they are facing shouldnt be having any issues with damage. The lanka is pure elemental and can be modded in any way for whatever enemy. the vulkar series is impact... good for corpus, the vectis series is solid middle of the road for corpus or grineer, and the snipetron series is great for grineer because puncture. Throw on the right elementals on any of them and you should be golden. I generally run corrosive/blast for grineer, and magnetic/toxin for corpus.

[Bryntwulf]

So the changes you would enjoy are the increased punchthrough, and scope mods, correct? (Homing Shots was a Sniper Mod idea that someone in my Alliance suggested, scope mods were just letting you choose which scope bonus you want out of the ones currently in the game.) 

I personally found that most Sniper Rifles, especially the Vulkar W, did have a point where their damage fall-off became readily apparent at around level 60, where shots would struggle to get past armor, and only take away about half of a Heavy Gunner's health outside of headshots. Then again, that may be because when I am trying to take down a large number of enemies as quickly as possible, I tend to aim for the torso rather than the head. On sortie missions with the increased armor condition, I can typically only use my Vectis if I am also running a frame that's designed to strip enemies of their armor. This problem could easily be explained by the fact that Armor scaling gets to be somewhat ridiculous in Warframe, however until we get Damage 3.0, we're going to have to balance with that sort of thing in mind. 

I will not be factoring Rivens into general balancing, as by principle I believe that in order for a weapon to be properly balanced, it needs to be able to perform well enough to be fun to use without one. If the gun is not balanced well enough to allow a player to make it through a sortie and have fun, then most players will not go through the tedious RNG of getting a decent riven for it. Additionally, Rivens have the Disposition system factored into them already, so if they were to be powerful enough that they felt a Riven was pushing them overboard, then the disposition of rivens for that weapon could be changed. Currently, the only Sniper Rifle that does not have a neutral disposition is the Vulkar. 

I absolutely agree. However, I dont believe that a timer is the right way to go about this. The shot combo counter either needs to be removed or reworked into something that will reward players for headshots, and encourage players to continue focusing on them, rather than just on slinging as much lead down field as possible, only to curse the heavens when a teammate steals one of your kills and resets your combo counter. Of course, I do believe that the hip-fire inaccuracy of sniper Rifles should be removed. The shot should still be going in a straight line out of that barrel regardless of whether the player is looking through the scope or not. I'm all for the removal of the reticule for hip-firing sniper rifles, but they should not have massive hip-fire spread. 

All in all, the reason why snipers need a buff is due to them generally not being fun to use. The reason why people who are snipers in other games complain about sniper rifles in Warframe is because other games are doing things with sniper rifles to make them fun to use. For me, I enjoyed them in Halo, Doom(Gauss Cannon) and Fallout because they felt powerful, and were a guaranteed kill on a headshot. I enjoyed them in FarCry because the AMR had explosive rounds and was a guaranteed kill if you either hit the head or torso. As they are now, Sniper Rifles just dont feel powerful. The damage numbers can read whatever they want, but if it doesnt feel powerful consistently, then does it really matter?

[Faulcun]

5 minutes ago, KyoBladezen said:

So the changes you would enjoy are the increased punchthrough, and scope mods, correct? (Homing Shots was a Sniper Mod idea that someone in my Alliance suggested, scope mods were just letting you choose which scope bonus you want out of the ones currently in the game.) 

I personally found that most Sniper Rifles, especially the Vulkar W, did have a point where their damage fall-off became readily apparent at around level 60, where shots would struggle to get past armor, and only take away about half of a Heavy Gunner's health outside of headshots. Then again, that may be because when I am trying to take down a large number of enemies as quickly as possible, I tend to aim for the torso rather than the head. On sortie missions with the increased armor condition, I can typically only use my Vectis if I am also running a frame that's designed to strip enemies of their armor. This problem could easily be explained by the fact that Armor scaling gets to be somewhat ridiculous in Warframe, however until we get Damage 3.0, we're going to have to balance with that sort of thing in mind. 

I will not be factoring Rivens into general balancing, as by principle I believe that in order for a weapon to be properly balanced, it needs to be able to perform well enough to be fun to use without one. If the gun is not balanced well enough to allow a player to make it through a sortie and have fun, then most players will not go through the tedious RNG of getting a decent riven for it. Additionally, Rivens have the Disposition system factored into them already, so if they were to be powerful enough that they felt a Riven was pushing them overboard, then the disposition of rivens for that weapon could be changed. Currently, the only Sniper Rifle that does not have a neutral disposition is the Vulkar. 

I absolutely agree. However, I dont believe that a timer is the right way to go about this. The shot combo counter either needs to be removed or reworked into something that will reward players for headshots, and encourage players to continue focusing on them, rather than just on slinging as much lead down field as possible, only to curse the heavens when a teammate steals one of your kills and resets your combo counter. Of course, I do believe that the hip-fire inaccuracy of sniper Rifles should be removed. The shot should still be going in a straight line out of that barrel regardless of whether the player is looking through the scope or not. I'm all for the removal of the reticule for hip-firing sniper rifles, but they should not have massive hip-fire spread. 

All in all, the reason why snipers need a buff is due to them generally not being fun to use. The reason why people who are snipers in other games complain about sniper rifles in Warframe is because other games are doing things with sniper rifles to make them fun to use. For me, I enjoyed them in Halo, Doom(Gauss Cannon) and Fallout because they felt powerful, and were a guaranteed kill on a headshot. I enjoyed them in FarCry because the AMR had explosive rounds and was a guaranteed kill if you either hit the head or torso. As they are now, Sniper Rifles just dont feel powerful. The damage numbers can read whatever they want, but if it doesnt feel powerful consistently, then does it really matter?

As far as the augmented enemy armor mutator is concerned, even my lanka with riven mod struggles to one shot some of the enemies. That particular setting is specifically designed to make us work hard to take enemies down... so for me to be able to one shot on the first shot even half of the enemies tells me my weapon is OP to begin with. I dont think that game mode should really be the benchmark for weapons because at that point you can throw out 98% of them.

I agree with not factoring rivens into general balancing, but they cant be ignored because they are very easily obtained, and their effects, as i said, can make a weapon insane. If DE made them rarer and more difficult to obtain, then Id be 100% with you on not even considering them. But as it stands, anybody can find a particular riven in trade chat in less than 30 min.

I would be perfectly ok with removing the reticle on hip fire and restoring the accuracy.

I think there already is enough incentive for headshots. Double damage is nothing to sneeze at. Sometimes it CAN be the difference between a heavy gunner living or dying which means you could take more damage in the process. This is why people dont use them, is because of the high risk high reward gameplay. Most would rather mount up a mirage and spam simulor until the game crashes. Theres nothing you can really do to sniper to make them appealing to that large group of people.

How a weapon feels is subjective. But if people are expecting snipers to have some kind of aoe effect, I think thats the wrong direction. Bows already have that and nobody uses it anyways. Theres really nothing that can be done to change how sniper gameplay works in this game without getting farther away from what the rifle is supposed to be in the first place. At best, I could see them as rail guns like in Avp2, unreal tournament, quake, etc etc.

[Bryntwulf]

Oh! There was one thing I did see someone mention as a response to another thread suggesting a way to make Snipers stand out a bit more with their headshots. Their idea was to make headshots from Sniper Rifles deal Finisher damage. Since we've already come to the conclusion that the main issue with Sniper Rifle reliability is armor, and finisher damage bypasses that, do you believe that would be a change that could make Sniper Rifles feel powerful in the same way that Covert Lethality made Daggers feel powerful?

[Faulcun]

1 hour ago, KyoBladezen said:

Oh! There was one thing I did see someone mention as a response to another thread suggesting a way to make Snipers stand out a bit more with their headshots. Their idea was to make headshots from Sniper Rifles deal Finisher damage. Since we've already come to the conclusion that the main issue with Sniper Rifle reliability is armor, and finisher damage bypasses that, do you believe that would be a change that could make Sniper Rifles feel powerful in the same way that Covert Lethality made Daggers feel powerful?

yeah i could get behind that i think. But if thats the case, I dont think I would buff them to the extent suggested, if at all.

If they deal finisher damage, would they still get a 2x damage boost from it? I wonder if that would be overkill considering any of the rifles can easily deal a minimum of 50k damage. As finisher damage thats more than enough to kill any enemy in one shot regardless. The higher end rifles would be able to  one hit enemies well past lvl 100 even without double damage.

I do think that finisher damage would be reasonable if it doesnt apply to bosses either.

[Bryntwulf]

1 minute ago, Faulcun said:

yeah i could get behind that i think. But if thats the case, I dont think I would buff them to the extent suggested, if at all.

If they deal finisher damage, would they still get a 2x damage boost from it? I wonder if that would be overkill considering any of the rifles can easily deal a minimum of 50k damage. As finisher damage thats more than enough to kill any enemy in one shot regardless. The higher end rifles would be able to  one hit enemies well past lvl 100 even without double damage.

I do think that finisher damage would be reasonable if it doesnt apply to bosses either.

Then that might actually be a decent avenue to go on. Give them Finisher damage on scoped headshots, remove scope sway(Or make it toggleable), add scope mods, and remove the reticule when unscoped instead of adding spread. 

I personally would like to see them all get as much crit chance as bows have as well, but that could be done through the scope mods if they choose the Lanka scope.

[Faulcun]

Just now, KyoBladezen said:

Then that might actually be a decent avenue to go on. Give them Finisher damage on scoped headshots, remove scope sway(Or make it toggleable), add scope mods, and remove the reticule when unscoped instead of adding spread. 

I personally would like to see them all get as much crit chance as bows have as well, but that could be done through the scope mods if they choose the Lanka scope.

If the scopes continue to give buffs depending on zoom level, then the sway needs to stay, especially if we're talking about finisher damage. Now, i can see maybe reducing sway a bit if you take a crouching position. But anybody who has ever shot a rifle from a standing position knows that sway is something you just have to deal with. No space magic is gonna make that go away. So if you want a toggle, i think you should lose the zoom buffs with it. For example, the lanka on 12x zoom is capable of orange crits because it buffs crit chance.... which is already ridiculous damage when it hits to begin with.

So if you are talking about a modular system for scopes for rifles, I could probably get behind that too. Perhaps one scope could have some kind of gyro that removes sway, but it shouldnt provide any other buffs either. Id rather see that, than a toggle.

 

[Bryntwulf]

Just now, Faulcun said:

If the scopes continue to give buffs depending on zoom level, then the sway needs to stay, especially if we're talking about finisher damage. Now, i can see maybe reducing sway a bit if you take a crouching position. But anybody who has ever shot a rifle from a standing position knows that sway is something you just have to deal with. No space magic is gonna make that go away. So if you want a toggle, i think you should lose the zoom buffs with it. For example, the lanka on 12x zoom is capable of orange crits because it buffs crit chance.... which is already ridiculous damage when it hits to begin with.

So if you are talking about a modular system for scopes for rifles, I could probably get behind that too. Perhaps one scope could have some kind of gyro that removes sway, but it shouldnt provide any other buffs either. Id rather see that, than a toggle.

 

Or maybe since most of the scopes have 3 settings, we could remove it from the first, and reduce the bonus from it? The reason why I personally dont believe scope sway should remain on Sniper Rifles is because we're not human, we're a bizarre marriage of orokin machinery and infested biology. We have neither a heartbeat nor a reason to have unsteady hands. And of course, neither the pistol snipers nor the Buzlok have sway when they fire. 

[Faulcun]

1 minute ago, KyoBladezen said:

Or maybe since most of the scopes have 3 settings, we could remove it from the first, and reduce the bonus from it? The reason why I personally dont believe scope sway should remain on Sniper Rifles is because we're not human, we're a bizarre marriage of orokin machinery and infested biology. We have neither a heartbeat nor a reason to have unsteady hands. And of course, neither the pistol snipers nor the Buzlok have sway when they fire. 

To be honest, I dont even notice sway on 3x. It is progressive as it is anyways, and the level of sway is determined by your zoom level. 7x is personally more than manageable which is where i spend most of my time anyways, and 12x is very noticeable. I was actually interested in seeing what happens around 600m when PoE launches.

But its all tied together. I think it would all depend on what your first zoom level is. I honestly think thats something that players should learn to compensate for. I would hate to reduce or nerf something for some players who are comfortable with compensation to begin with. Thats really why i love the lanka. When you are at 12x, not only do you have to worry about sway, but travel time and leading your shots, and then headshots on top of that?... but when it hits, its worth every bit of effort and i love that level of skill you develop to really make that weapon sing at long range.

[(XBOX)Demon Intellect]

7 hours ago, Faulcun said:

If the scopes continue to give buffs depending on zoom level, then the sway needs to stay, especially if we're talking about finisher damage. Now, i can see maybe reducing sway a bit if you take a crouching position. But anybody who has ever shot a rifle from a standing position knows that sway is something you just have to deal with. No space magic is gonna make that go away. So if you want a toggle, i think you should lose the zoom buffs with it. For example, the lanka on 12x zoom is capable of orange crits because it buffs crit chance.... which is already ridiculous damage when it hits to begin with.

So if you are talking about a modular system for scopes for rifles, I could probably get behind that too. Perhaps one scope could have some kind of gyro that removes sway, but it shouldnt provide any other buffs either. Id rather see that, than a toggle.

 

Our frame can lift hammers that probably weigh in the hundreds of pounds doubt a 30 pound rifle would bother them. Please don't bring realism into a game about space ninjas.

[Faulcun]

1 hour ago, (Xbox One)Demon Intellect said:

Our frame can lift hammers that probably weigh in the hundreds of pounds doubt a 30 pound rifle would bother them. Please don't bring realism into a game about space ninjas.

Its not about realism. Its about a balance of power.

Or maybe DE should just simplify the whole thing and combine every weapon in the game into one, so when you shoot, all enemies die in every location, and the mission automatically ends in success. Its easy.... requires no skill, everybody wins, and everybody is happy. Imagine during events.... everybody gets a trophy too.

Aw crap. There I go bringing realism into it again...

Edited September 22, 2017 by Faulcun

[letir]

Just to add to the "Scope topic". First level of scope on any sniper must be standart shoulder-viem with +50% magnitutde, like on Latron and others.

[(XBOX)Demon Intellect]

56 minutes ago, Faulcun said:

Its not about realism. Its about a balance of power.

Or maybe DE should just simplify the whole thing and combine every weapon in the game into one, so when you shoot, all enemies die in every location, and the mission automatically ends in success. Its easy.... requires no skill, everybody wins, and everybody is happy. Imagine during events.... everybody gets a trophy too.

Aw crap. There I go bringing realism into it again...

You mentioned shooting from a standing position. My point was that the frames are way stronger than any real life person so using real life examples doesn't make sense.keep being petty though, just proves your whole issue with these changes is so you can stroke your epeen.

[Faulcun]

7 hours ago, (Xbox One)Demon Intellect said:

You mentioned shooting from a standing position. My point was that the frames are way stronger than any real life person so using real life examples doesn't make sense.keep being petty though, just proves your whole issue with these changes is so you can stroke your epeen.

Behind every imaginary space magic warframe is a real live human making it work. There is an expectation of trade off. The entire reason sway was introduced is because of the fact that all of these rifles can consecutively increase their damage without the use of mods. Therefore, it is not unreasonable to expect the player to develop proper skills to utilize that function to its fullest, especially if anybody is actually considering headshots to finisher damage..

And it has absolutely ZERO to do with epeen. Im not even talking about players being skilled in the first place.... im talking about basic skills required to advance to higher level content that SHOULD be acquired through normal progression. Do you realize how many "veteran" players out there still cant run the obstacle course in less than a minute... even with the new parkour system? How easy do we have to make things before we get to this point:

 

Edited September 22, 2017 by Faulcun

[letir]

2 hours ago, Faulcun said:

Behind every imaginary space magic warframe is a real live human making it work. There is an expectation of trade off. The entire reason sway was introduced is because of the fact that all of these rifles can consecutively increase their damage without the use of mods. Therefore, it is not unreasonable to expect the player to develop proper skills to utilize that function to its fullest, especially if anybody is actually considering headshots to finisher damage..

It's unreasonable to bring "realistic" feature in combat with rocket miniguns.

[Faulcun]

1 hour ago, letir said:

It's unreasonable to bring "realistic" feature in combat with rocket miniguns.

I believe its a coincidence that it can even be considered a "realistic feature". its a reasonable part of an answer to balance an equation of buffed power to where the player needs to earn the shot at long distance. Its really not that hard to do in the first place and at least it is something that is predictable and easy to compensate for.

They could have added wind to the environment instead.... oh wait for the sake of non-realism, lets call it radiation void pulses.

Snipers actually did get a huge buff, and something needed to be added to regulate that damage potential, so they gave us scope sway.

Why dont we wait and see what they do with the next set of changes they already announced. Im sure they tested the rifles at 600+ meters in the plains anyways and may have decided to remove sway all together because it was too difficult for them too.

[letir]

11 hours ago, Faulcun said:

I believe its a coincidence that it can even be considered a "realistic feature". its a reasonable part of an answer to balance an equation of buffed power to where the player needs to earn the shot at long distance. Its really not that hard to do in the first place and at least it is something that is predictable and easy to compensate for.

They could have added wind to the environment instead.... oh wait for the sake of non-realism, lets call it radiation void pulses.

Snipers actually did get a huge buff, and something needed to be added to regulate that damage potential, so they gave us scope sway.

Why dont we wait and see what they do with the next set of changes they already announced. Im sure they tested the rifles at 600+ meters in the plains anyways and may have decided to remove sway all together because it was too difficult for them too.

Sniper as weapon class aren't suited for Warframe, because it's horde shooter for a most part, and 99% of action going into small rooms/corridors within 100m. Even with big buffs - like in the OP - they won't steal leading roles from shotguns/AR.

 

Yet you acting like Snipers alredy viable and poweful weapons (they are not), and they will get even better and steal leading role with one additional big zone (when most of actions going in small missions).

[Faulcun]

5 hours ago, letir said:

Sniper as weapon class aren't suited for Warframe, because it's horde shooter for a most part, and 99% of action going into small rooms/corridors within 100m.

I disagree. A few of the rifles have innate punchthrough, and if not, can always be added. In tight places you can take down a massive amount of enemies in just a handful of shots because you can hit multiple enemies at the same time. I do this on a daily basis. In fact a lot of my own clan members said the same thing, until they started playing with me. Now, they have no issues bringing snipers to any mission, and even sometimes prefer it.

5 hours ago, letir said:

they won't steal leading roles from shotguns/AR.

Who said they needed to?

5 hours ago, letir said:

Yet you acting like Snipers alredy viable and poweful weapons (they are not), and they will get even better and steal leading role with one additional big zone (when most of actions going in small missions).

Im not acting, and they are viable and powerful in the hands of somebody comfortable with the playstyle. Can you clear rooms in one shot? No. Is there a learning curve? Yes. Can everybody do it? Yes.

Will everybody take the time to learn? No. 

And that last part is the biggest problem. These rifles dont need to steal any role. But to suggest they arent powerful and have no use is ignorant. They are way more powerful than you give them credit for. ARs and shotguns will always be more popular because they require less skill and are more forgiving when you miss. Nothing will ever change that. That is how it is in every single shooter.... ever.

[letir]

1 hour ago, Faulcun said:

1) I disagree. A few of the rifles have innate punchthrough, and if not, can always be added. In tight places you can take down a massive amount of enemies in just a handful of shots because you can hit multiple enemies at the same time. I do this on a daily basis. In fact a lot of my own clan members said the same thing, until they started playing with me. Now, they have no issues bringing snipers to any mission, and even sometimes prefer it.

2)Who said they needed to?

3) Im not acting, and they are viable and powerful in the hands of somebody comfortable with the playstyle. Can you clear rooms in one shot? No. Is there a learning curve? Yes. Can everybody do it? Yes.

Will everybody take the time to learn? No. 

4) And that last part is the biggest problem. These rifles dont need to steal any role. But to suggest they arent powerful and have no use is ignorant. They are way more powerful than you give them credit for. ARs and shotguns will always be more popular because they require less skill and are more forgiving when you miss. Nothing will ever change that. That is how it is in every single shooter.... ever.

1) Punch-through mods can be added on any weapon, and any other weapon (except bows) are much more potent in other situations, thanks to bigger mags, faster reloading, better ROF, ect  In fact, some other weapons also have inhate punch-through.

Sniper rifles aren't used because they are weak, unwieldy and useless in most situations.

2) Players.

3) There is plenty of weapons which can clean room in one shot. Some of them dosen't even require skill to use.

Why should players spend time on inferior weapons?

4) AR, shotguns, launchers and secondaries are preferable because they are stronger and more useful in Warframe. Snipers are weak and have no use, with exception for some exotic builds.