I think the DE should take another look at Bladestorm

[Nazrethim]

54 minutes ago, Lholland said:

I'm fairly sure it does, seeing as I can take him on sorties and instakill everyone with a dagger, but without it I don't.

also, it counts as finisher damage as far as arcanes are concerned, so why wouldn't the finisher mods affect it as well?

CL works on the weapon (that is, the dagger). BS is counted as an entirely separate weapon, only accounting for constant Attack Speed and Combo Counter mods.

[(PSN)CoolD2108]

10 hours ago, Lholland said:

I'm fairly sure it does, seeing as I can take him on sorties and instakill everyone with a dagger, but without it I don't.

also, it counts as finisher damage as far as arcanes are concerned, so why wouldn't the finisher mods affect it as well?

That's a passive effect. It is not affected by CL, that i guarantee you but isn't in conflict eather and gets stronger by using melee weapons of any kind since finishers from CL generate combo too (assuming they use combo mods)

It's affected by melee attack speed too in fact, in specific by mod - (primed) fury, speed (not as important), rivens - and by Arcane strike, what kills big groups in seconds on the correct setup while generating combo itself. Especially using a CL dagger would allow the full palette of mods without real downcuts, what brings your combo reset up to whooping 25 seconds while providing both instakills and sure kill AOE.

11 hours ago, bioned said:

please support your "logic"?

I did that quite a bit allready but please, let me repeat myself...

It scales well (with what i mentioned in the other segment), works perfectly on his stats and kit (perfect melee and CL support - a kit that allows efficiency and power management both alike), synergices perfectly with his playstyle and got its primary mod requirements migrated onto his melee weapon  (requirements that are not in conflict with the best melee builds eather) what keeps his own modding free thus not only allows for a good utility build befiting a melee frame like himself but provides one build diversity other frames can only dream of. It's rather splendit as is without further meddling or even a full rework

Whereover PVP (naz's petty attempt to inflame the PVE section cause he failed in the correct section), it beein "slow" (no modding and power creep involved) or simple dislike (or wanting something off of him excalibur offers perfectly fine allready) is not as good of a reason to let it go.

I'd as much as dare to say that a rework of any kind, especially those spreading in the forums imo, would be a direct nerf to his current state since the devs sticked to its original, rather unbalanced state in ash revisited, where an exalted bladestorm would require balancing to existing exalted abilitys, that not even rival standart melee weapons these days, which ash has perfect synergy to as is allready...

Edited October 8, 2017 by (PS4)CoolD2108

[Prany]

I dunno if anyone has already suggested this, but how about make Shuriken tag enemies and Teleporting to anyone tagged would trigger Blade Storm.

And... uh, give Ash new ability.

[Nazrethim]

6 hours ago, (PS4)CoolD2108 said:

That's a passive effect. It is not affected by CL, that i guarantee you but isn't in conflict eather and gets stronger by using melee weapons of any kind since finishers from CL generate combo too (assuming they use combo mods)

To be honest any decently modded melee weapon works wonders with Ash due to Finisher attacks having insane multipliers. CL only becomes kind of mandatory for killing if A) You aren't keeping a combo counter and B) you are facing enemies beyond lvl100, which the game isn't balanced around.

6 hours ago, (PS4)CoolD2108 said:

It's affected by melee attack speed too in fact, in specific by mod - (primed) fury, speed (not as important), rivens - and by Arcane strike, what kills big groups in seconds on the correct setup while generating combo itself. Especially using a CL dagger would allow the full palette of mods without real downcuts, what brings your combo reset up to whooping 25 seconds while providing both instakills and sure kill AOE.

Add to that list Quickening Mod, even if it's a sh*tty mod nobody ever uses it's still worth mentioning.

Also, it's not an AoE, it's a target-by-target assassination tool... of which Ash has 2 for some reason you still haven't justified in any way. And let me remind you that pre-nerfvisit Rising Storm also worked on Body Count and Drifting Contact, so Ash could get to a whooping 50s counter, this was nerfed because apparently DE didn't want the augment to be worth using.

6 hours ago, (PS4)CoolD2108 said:

I did that quite a bit allready but please, let me repeat myself...

It scales well (with what i mentioned in the other segment),

Not really. BS is in a similar position as World on Fire, only oppositve. World on Fire does it's job at lower levels but past a certain threshold becomes pretty much useless in terms of damage, BS is pretty much useless at all levels below 100, where the armor scaling makes finisher damage better. Both are in equally bad situation.

6 hours ago, (PS4)CoolD2108 said:

works perfectly on his stats

Sure, using 150 energy on 3-10 dudes (3mark-1mark) surely is balanced.

6 hours ago, (PS4)CoolD2108 said:

and kit (perfect melee and CL support - a kit that allows efficiency and power management both alike),

Ash is in an interesting position, it has build diversity so long as you don't ever consider BS into the equation. BS requires: Efficiency, Primed Fury (not every player has it because it's locked behind the log-in wall), Rivens with at least 50% attack speed (which not everyone has, and if they have it's one at best, so you are stuck with 1 weapon), either Arcane energize (to feed the energy sink) or strike (to speed up the slow as snail clipshow).

If you ignore BS, you can use any build you want.

6 hours ago, (PS4)CoolD2108 said:

synergices perfectly with his playstyle

Old BS synergized better when not spammed mindlessly.

6 hours ago, (PS4)CoolD2108 said:

and got its primary mod requirements migrated onto his melee weapon  (requirements that are not in conflict with the best melee builds eather) what keeps his own modding free thus not only allows for a good utility build befiting a melee frame like himself but provides one build diversity other frames can only dream of. It's rather splendit as is without further meddling or even a full rework

Metabuilds shouldn't be considered the base of the design. Accounted for? definetly, but not make them the central point. BS does indeed needs mechanical upgrades to be good once again, a full rework is optional, but changes must be made.

6 hours ago, (PS4)CoolD2108 said:

Whereover PVP (naz's petty attempt to inflame the PVE section cause he failed in the correct section),

Well, the problems in PvP stem from sh*t PvE design+bogus conclave balancing that left the ability so useless that it's actually detrimental to attempt to use it.

6 hours ago, (PS4)CoolD2108 said:

it beein "slow" (no modding and power creep involved)

Which is the basis of build diversity. If you balance around power creep you pretty much scr*w anybody who isn't on it, but if you balance around base stats both sides get benefits.

6 hours ago, (PS4)CoolD2108 said:

or simple dislike (or wanting something off of him excalibur offers perfectly fine allready) is not as good of a reason to let it go.

However, all the problems I already mentioned really do make a solid case to change it.

6 hours ago, (PS4)CoolD2108 said:

I'd as much as dare to say that a rework of any kind, especially those spreading in the forums imo, would be a direct nerf to his current state since the devs sticked to its original, rather unbalanced state in ash revisited, where an exalted bladestorm would require balancing to existing exalted abilitys, that not even rival standart melee weapons these days, which ash has perfect synergy to as is allready...

Depending on implementation, a rework would be a straight upgrade, and considering the ability currently it's the worst version of Blade Storm, even worse than closed Beta version it's not that difficult to improve it.

As for balancing alreaady existing exalted abilities, that would be good for the frames involved, which is a win-win situation for everyone.

[Nazrethim]

3 hours ago, Prany said:

I dunno if anyone has already suggested this, but how about make Shuriken tag enemies and Teleporting to anyone tagged would trigger Blade Storm.

And... uh, give Ash new ability.

Yeah, the logic is that since BS and TP kind of do the exact same thing (and if we count Fatal Teleport, they DO the same thing, mechanically speaking) merging them would free an ability slot to add something cool.

[(XBOX)Angryspy101]

48 minutes ago, Nazrethim said:

Old BS synergized better when not spammed mindlessly.

Maybe, but finding an "ash player" who didn't spam old BS is as rare as finding an ember who doesn't keep WOF up for the whole mission

 

50 minutes ago, Nazrethim said:

Not really. BS is in a similar position as World on Fire, only oppositve. World on Fire does it's job at lower levels but past a certain threshold becomes pretty much useless in terms of damage, BS is pretty much useless at all levels below 100, where the armor scaling makes finisher damage better. Both are in equally bad situation.

I definitely see where your going with this but I wouldn't say an ability that is only worth using against lvl 80+ is equally as bad as an ability that is only good at lvl 40 or below

You are right tho, abilities should be great on all lvls, but in warframe's current state, most 4th abilities don't do jack squat on high lvl content. So DE should definitely do a damage overhaul to all the damage abilities after POE.

[(PSN)kingbrown2012]

I played with ash today .... I could see what they was tryna to do with ash and it was funny to watch someone steer on they own only to be assassinated by me ..... but still it could be ALOT better ...... only thing that sucks is the mechanics ...... And I even had a few scenarios where a stance ult would work better 

[Nazrethim]

1 hour ago, (Xbox One)Angryspy101 said:

Maybe, but finding an "ash player" who didn't spam old BS is as rare as finding an ember who doesn't keep WOF up for the whole mission

True. I was scolded for playing Ash on every mission... until 3min later when the squad realised I wasn't a spammer and praised me for my skill, team oriented playstyle and for being one of the rare-as-sh*t Smoke Shadow users.

Quote

I definitely see where your going with this but I wouldn't say an ability that is only worth using against lvl 80+ is equally as bad as an ability that is only good at lvl 40 or below

Depends. If you think about meta, then yeah, the high damage that it's useless in low level is awesome, but if you see the game as a whole, with low level content being nearly as important as the higher level one (it's where most players spend most of the gametime after all, and the Relic system made low levels nodes important to some extent) then both are equally bad.

Quote

You are right tho, abilities should be great on all lvls, but in warframe's current state, most 4th abilities don't do jack squat on high lvl content. So DE should definitely do a damage overhaul to all the damage abilities after POE.

I agree, though it's less of a damage problem and more of a scaling problem. The root is that enemies don't get harder mechanically as level goes up, they just get inflated stats. DE would have to design mechanically challenging enemies and tone down scaling a lot to solve this though. There's also the power spam issue, while it's good to spam abilities, it also makes content trivial, and Efficiency is flat out broken by having exponential gains rather than linear like the other 3 stats, and Range being to some degree due to AoE abilities in general not having an enemy cap (could be worked out by setting a cap and making it be affected by Power Strength, the stronger the ability the more enemies can be affected by it). All in all it would be a near complete rebalance of the whole game. Right now is more or less a jenga tower of unbalanced stuff piled up and barely standing.

Edited October 8, 2017 by Nazrethim

[(PSN)CoolD2108]

Efficiency OR rage OR collecting orbs with a sentinel OR a random combination of those. I'm only running streamline+rage myself. Big deal.

And speed+fury IS a option if people don't have access to primed mods or rivens, which are not even part of his build

 

You seriously trying to blame an ability that needs a minimum of one stat on the frame to perform at its peak? Are you for real?

On second thought, you mentioned that you're only rude and bitter towards the opposition these days, what more then reflects in your lack of reason.

Edited October 8, 2017 by (PS4)CoolD2108

[(PSN)kingbrown2012]

6 minutes ago, (PS4)CoolD2108 said:

Max efficiency OR rage OR collecting orbs with a sentinel. I'm only running streamline+rage myself. Big deal.

And speed+fury IS a option if people don't have access to primed mods or rivens, which are not even part of his build

 

You seriously trying to blame an ability that needs a minimum of one stat on the frame to perform at its peak? Are you for real?

The mechanics suck all the problems the ability had before besides kill stealing haven’t been addressed 

ash can have a 4th that buffs movement and his 1-3 

shuriken gaining a number buff from 2 to 6

smoke screen becoming smoke cloud .... any enemy that walks in loses they alert making them succumbable to finishers ( affected by range)

teleport becoming the current marking system of blade storm 

and movement becoming smoke dashes or short teleports ( affected by range) 

Edited October 8, 2017 by (PS4)kingbrown2012

[Nazrethim]

Just now, (PS4)CoolD2108 said:

Max efficiency OR rage OR collecting orbs with a sentinel. I'm only running streamline+rage myself. Big deal.

And speed+fury IS a option if people don't have access to primed mods or rivens, which are not even part of his build

You seriously trying to blame an ability that needs a minimum of one stat on the frame to perform at its peak? Are you for real?

I have almost the same, and BS isn't actually worth using. At higher levels it is outperformed by SS+goodish melee and Fatal Teleport, at lower levels is outperformed by everything including Shuriken.

The only way the ability is actually worth using and be better for it's job than the other options is by stacking energy efficiency (both to reduce cost and gain more energy) and attack speed (P Fury, Rivens, Arcane Strike). THAT is what we are calling out. Among a miriad of other issues. Accept it, the ability is a sham and needs to be fixed or replaced.

[(PSN)CoolD2108]

2 minutes ago, (PS4)kingbrown2012 said:

The mechanics suck all the problems the ability had before besides kill stealing haven’t been addressed 

Kill stealing? What level range are you talking about when calling an ability bad that deals as much as 38k FINISHER DAMAGE with nothing but the combo counter per mark.

[(PSN)kingbrown2012]

Just now, (PS4)CoolD2108 said:

Kill stealing? What level range are you talking about when calling an ability bad that deals as much as 38k FINISHER DAMAGE with nothing but the combo counter per mark.

Just today I was messaged about kill stealing by teammates and the only thing I did was run melee, SS, BladeStorm, And the occasional lenz for crowd control.... and we ain’t hating on damage we are hating the mechanics for bladestorm aka mark system

[(PSN)kingbrown2012]

2 minutes ago, (PS4)kingbrown2012 said:

Just today I was messaged about kill stealing by teammates and the only thing I did was run melee, SS, BladeStorm, And the occasional lenz for crowd control.... and we ain’t hating on damage we are hating the mechanics for bladestorm aka mark system

And I just edited one of my above comments for a rework option 

[(PSN)CoolD2108]

14 minutes ago, Nazrethim said:

SS+goodish melee and Fatal Teleport

Suuure. No specific aiming and a faster animation is obviously outperformed by a slower Animation+aiming at every single enemy individually.

That's the reason you wanna lower his damage. Cause more damage slower is better, it beein slow totally not beein an argument of yours. Oh and, melee is as potent because it is melee and not an exalted ability. Finishers can crit.

Edited October 8, 2017 by (PS4)CoolD2108

[(PSN)kingbrown2012]

5 minutes ago, (PS4)CoolD2108 said:

Suuure. No specific aiming and a faster animation is obviously outperformed by a slower Animation+aiming at every single enemy individually.

That's the reason you wanna lower his damage. Cause more damage slower is better, it beein slow totally not beein an argument of yours. Oh and, melee is as potent because it is melee and not an exalted ability. Finishers can crit.

Are you saying that bladestorm can crit?

or you mean just normal finishers?

any who it doesn’t matter an exalted mode ...... or buff mode or whatever you wanna call it is a better way to go ..... 

basically it should buff the 1st-3rd abilities in unique ways (moving bladestorm to the 3rd buffed ability)

buff movement to smoke dashes or short teleports that are affected by range 

And a small energy drain 

 

[(PSN)CoolD2108]

19 minutes ago, (PS4)kingbrown2012 said:

Just today I was messaged about kill stealing by teammates and the only thing I did was run melee, SS, BladeStorm, And the occasional lenz for crowd control.... and we ain’t hating on damage we are hating the mechanics for bladestorm aka mark system

The mechanic is defined by the damage. It's designed to be a sure kill, not a fast one.

 

No like? Play something else. Seriously tho.

[(PSN)kingbrown2012]

Just now, (PS4)CoolD2108 said:

The mechanic is defined by the damage. It's designed to be a sure kill, not a fast one.

 

No like? Play something else. Seriously tho.

A sure kill but it doesn’t kill with healer ancients around that being said why keep commenting if you don’t want him reworked again keep it moving like the others ..... and Again I’m all for an exalted mode ...... or a power up mode 

[ikkabotz]

I like the idea of blade storm being used with the clones around ash instead of having to pan the camera along for the ride, and then maybe it could open all enemies to finisher dmg and slow them with a bleed dot?

[(PSN)CoolD2108]

2 minutes ago, (PS4)kingbrown2012 said:

Are you saying that bladestorm can crit?

or you mean just normal finishers?

any who it doesn’t matter an exalted mode ...... or buff mode or whatever you wanna call it is a better way to go ..... 

basically it should buff the 1st-3rd abilities in unique ways (moving bladestorm to the 3rd buffed ability)

buff movement to smoke dashes or short teleports that are affected by range 

And a small energy drain 

 

The way exalted abilitys are better then melee in high levels?

 

Wait

Melee is better.

[(PSN)kingbrown2012]

5 minutes ago, (PS4)CoolD2108 said:

The way exalted abilitys are better then melee in high levels?

 

Wait

Melee is better.

Did I say exalted melee? no I said exalted mode .... a mode that buffs all other abilites hell I’ll even say it can put more bleed damage on melee..... pay attention 

[(PSN)kingbrown2012]

47 minutes ago, (PS4)kingbrown2012 said:

The mechanics suck all the problems the ability had before besides kill stealing haven’t been addressed 

ash can have a 4th that buffs movement and his 1-3 

shuriken gaining a number buff from 2 to 6

smoke screen becoming smoke cloud .... any enemy that walks in loses they alert making them succumbable to finishers ( affected by range)

teleport becoming the current marking system of blade storm 

and movement becoming smoke dashes or short teleports ( affected by range) 

For people to read again 

[(PSN)CoolD2108]

14 minutes ago, (PS4)kingbrown2012 said:

A sure kill but it doesn’t kill with healer ancients around that being said why keep commenting if you don’t want him reworked again keep it moving like the others ..... and Again I’m all for an exalted mode ...... or a power up mode 

Except that finisher damage is uneffected by armor, shields or reductions of any kind.

 

Had been reading a few threads that this is a bug tho since u18, you may wanna report and consider it as such.

[(PSN)CoolD2108]

18 minutes ago, (PS4)kingbrown2012 said:

Did I say exalted melee? no I said exalted mode .... a mode that buffs all other abilites hell I’ll even say it can put more bleed damage on melee..... pay attention 

Soo...chroma with a bit of limbo and saryn? Cause you don't like o.p. melee and zero effort finisher damage as is? So you wanna make it compromise dependant on his first and raise its cost by attaching it to his third ability? Cause that's better?...

Not that it's bad per se, i actually fancy that idea but melee is pretty decent as is, channels lock you out of quite a bit of stuff and cost.

 

Still the best rework idea so far tho.

Edited October 8, 2017 by (PS4)CoolD2108

[(PSN)GR13V4NC3]

 

Updated ideas:

Shuriken: Can pin enemies in place if struck in the legs/feet. Casting cost should be as low as possible because this is a super-super spammy move. Also the casting delay between button presses should be removed so that it can be thrown at the Hikou Prime's speed. Pinned enemies will give Ash some sort of bonus to something when attacking them. Using other abilities on pinned enemies can/will do something too, like pinning a group then throwing a smoke bomb on them and jumping in the cloud and going nuts will do something (i don't know yet). I want this to be like a substitute for an actual secondary, in terms of energy cost, but still powered by your secondary stats/mods.

Smoke Bomb: Honestly, I think my/our idea from the above post is perfect.

Teleport (Smoke Dash): I like the Smoke Dash change from my/our post as well. It's a chain-able, variational, multi-combo, low cost ability. The only thing I would update is how to differentiate and activate the 2 separate parts of the move (if at all)... but I have't figured it out yet.

Blade Storm: I keep coming back to the Mario Super Star/Shinobi Ninjitsu change, it just makes more sense. Something that increases the intensity of the aspects of Ash's (strengths and) other moves while also lowering the casting cost and making him move/strike faster. So he would crit more/harder, bleeds would be stronger/last longer all the while moving at greater speeds and being harder to hit himself. All while using his wrist-blades, of course.

I would like Ash to be as he should: quick to target, engage, kill and vanish (rinse and repeat). He should have the ability to wipeout a single heavy target or a small group of opponents and then chain it all together for seamless, unrelenting death. As before, killing large groups/volume of enemies would be more work for the Ash player, but would also be much more fun. My ideal version of the rework to Ash removes all the targeting stuff that DE put in because it is a hindrance more than a boon. The player is manually responsible for combining/timing all of Ash's moves in such a way that he becomes a storm of attacks against one or multiple opponents; striking, dodging, teleporting and weaving in and out of enemy range (whittling them down with heavy/often crits and devastating bleed dots).

Edited October 8, 2017 by (PS4)GR13V4NC3