Nightmare Mode Is Punishing... Not Difficult

[Wesgile]

I've been farming for days and nights on end and not a single Blaze, then this happens? As it is right now, Blaze is all but impossible to get.

i seriously don't get how people are fine with the no minimap mode, especially missions with 4 sabotage targets or 4 spy targets + more. doable, but not in the slightest bit challenging and/or fun.

it's like they dont actually play nightmare mode intensively or not even playing it at all.

schadenfreude all over the place.

[Callback]

No minimap is bad, they could at LEAST give us waypoints on the main HUD.

 

The real problem is you can't find people playing outside venus or earth.

[Pekku]

That's it guys, punishing is the new word for something that's too difficult for someone. Punishing. No I didn't fail the test because it was difficult, it was punishing. No I didn't die because I stood there and got hit by a rocket, the rocket is punishing. No the new enemies aren't difficult, they're just punishing.

 

In addition, Nightmare Mode, a challenge clearly tailored for end-game players, should have the same weak enemies the regular levels have. The same amount too. Because it's punishing when we get swarmed. To balance this we will give them super advanced AI that enables them to hide behind covers.

 

Also anything than can kill more than your Warframe of choice is OP.

Edited July 28, 2013 by Pekku

[Callback]

That's it guys, punishing is the new word for something that's too difficult for someone. Punishing. No I didn't fail the test because it was difficult, it was punishing. No I didn't die because I stood there and got hit by a rocket, the rocket is punishing. No the new enemies aren't difficult, they're just punishing.

 

In addition, Nightmare Mode, a challenge clearly tailored for end-game players, should have the same weak enemies the regular levels have. The same amount too. Because it's punishing when we get swarmed. To balance this we will give them super advanced AI that enables them to hide behind covers.

 

Also anything than can kill more than your Warframe of choice is OP.

You're ignorant.  It is punishing because 1 single mistake kills you outright.  That's just stressful.  Difficult would make mistakes more common, and let them add up to an eventual loss.  Raising the penalty for a single mistake is not adding difficulty.  Chain knockdowns are the same way.  If you get hit once, you end up dead thanks to a bad mechanic.  When one single mistake carries such a massive penalty, that's punishing.  When there are more smaller mistakes going around to try and avoid, that's a good challenge.  

 

Think about Megaman.  You have a lot of health, and you can sustain a lot of hits, but there are things EVERYWHERE that can land one of those hits, and they add up.  That's difficulty.

 

IWBTG is punishing. You need to run it perfectly or you will die.  The thing is, the levels are fixed so you at least get to replay and improve, and saves are frequent so you only need to memorize and run a little bit at a time.  Imagine if it were randomly generated.  There is no improvement, no way to predict what is coming.  The trial-and-error improvement the player goes through is the thing that redeems the game and makes it enjoyable.   Without being able to learn and memorize, nobody would enjoy it.

 

That's what nightmare does, especially solo.  Unless you run Rhino, you will die to any single mistake, but situations will pop up randomly that you have no way of predicting, and may not even get a chance to react to.  That is why the game needs improvement.  It is using punishing difficulty instead of actually improving the base difficulty.  

Edited July 28, 2013 by Callback

[Numot]

That's it guys, punishing is the new word for something that's too difficult for someone. Punishing. No I didn't fail the test because it was difficult, it was punishing. No I didn't die because I stood there and got hit by a rocket, the rocket is punishing. No the new enemies aren't difficult, they're just punishing.

 

Also anything than can kill more than your Warframe of choice is OP.

 

Punishing because it fits this: http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/FakeDifficulty

 

Specifically

-"Bad technical aspects make it difficult": Low gravity

-"Denial of information critical to progress": No minimap

-"The outcome of the game is influenced by decisions that were uninformed and cannot be undone": Vampire, timer, weapon restriction, energy drain, and no shields can all fall here. Any one of these calls for specific frame and weapon choices to be successful. Its entirely possible to enter a mission that is absurdly difficult to complete simply because your set up is negated (ie caster frame with no energy). Since you go in blind to the challenges the safest picks are probably Rhino and Frost frame wise.

[NalkorRN]

You're ignorant.  It is punishing because 1 single mistake kills you outright.  That's just stressful.  Difficult would make mistakes more common, and let them add up to an eventual loss.  Raising the penalty for a single mistake is not adding difficulty.  Chain knockdowns are the same way.  If you get hit once, you end up dead thanks to a bad mechanic.  When one single mistake carries such a massive penalty, that's punishing.  When there are more smaller mistakes going around to try and avoid, that's a good challenge.  

 

Think about Megaman.  You have a lot of health, and you can sustain a lot of hits, but there are things EVERYWHERE that can land one of those hits, and they add up.  That's difficulty.

 

Dark Souls is punishing. You need to run it perfectly or you will die.  The thing is, the level is fixed so you at least get to replay and improve.  Imagine if it were randomly generated.  There is no improvement, no way to predict what is coming.  The trial-and-error improvement the player goes through is the thing that redeems the game and makes it enjoyable.   Without being able to learn and memorize, nobody would enjoy it.

 

That's what nightmare does, especially solo.  Unless you run Rhino, you will die to any single mistake, but situations will pop up randomly that you have no way of predicting, and may not even get a chance to react to.  That is why the game needs improvement.  It is using punishing difficulty instead of actually improving the base difficulty.

You were doing great until you said Dark Souls was punishing and required perfect runs to avoid dying.

[Pekku]

Yes because every game's difficulty level has to comply to a certain fixed standard. Standards internet people or I decided on, not the developers. If I'm not happy the developers are wrong. If other people can do it without any problems and I can't it's bullcrap, they're ignorant, and I'm an educated gamer; everything too difficult for me is punishing.

 

EDIT: Grammar hotfix.

Edited July 28, 2013 by Pekku

[Callback]

You were doing great until you said Dark Souls was punishing and required perfect runs to avoid dying.

Sorry, never played it and was going by hearsay.  I think I fixed it.

[NalkorRN]

Sorry, never played it and was going by hearsay.  I think I fixed it.

You should give the game a chance, but I'd recommend the PS3 version over the PC version. This coming from a huge PC fan, no less.

[S-7v96]

Well, aside from the no minimap, no shields, draining health and energy etc.

 

My problem was that our full squad, took an hour just to find the exit (one dude quit right before we found it, sadly). And our reward for sticking together and constantly reviving eachother (Yeah! Teamwork! This game is about teamwork!) was just a Focus Energy mod. Really now... I could have done some other random mission on normal and have gotten mods twice as good as that in way less time.

 

Waste of my time and efforts. Hoo. Ray.

[Pekku]

You're ignorant.  It is punishing because 1 single mistake kills you outright.  That's just stressful.  Difficult would make mistakes more common, and let them add up to an eventual loss.  Raising the penalty for a single mistake is not adding difficulty.  Chain knockdowns are the same way.  If you get hit once, you end up dead thanks to a bad mechanic.  When one single mistake carries such a massive penalty, that's punishing.  When there are more smaller mistakes going around to try and avoid, that's a good challenge.  

 

Think about Megaman.  You have a lot of health, and you can sustain a lot of hits, but there are things EVERYWHERE that can land one of those hits, and they add up.  That's difficulty.

 

Ninja Gaiden is punishing. You need to run it perfectly or you will die.  The thing is, the levels are fixed so you at least get to replay and improve.  Imagine if it were randomly generated.  There is no improvement, no way to predict what is coming.  The trial-and-error improvement the player goes through is the thing that redeems the game and makes it enjoyable.   Without being able to learn and memorize, nobody would enjoy it.

 

That's what nightmare does, especially solo.  Unless you run Rhino, you will die to any single mistake, but situations will pop up randomly that you have no way of predicting, and may not even get a chance to react to.  That is why the game needs improvement.  It is using punishing difficulty instead of actually improving the base difficulty.  

You were doing great until you said Ninja Gaiden was punishing and required perfect runs to avoid dying.

[RMSGM]

Why not use those drones we faced in the event for nightmare mode? instead of just not having a map let players kill them to show the way and it becomes kinda different from normal gameplay, maybe even increase their map disruption range a bit more?

[Callback]

You were doing great until you said Ninja Gaiden was punishing and required perfect runs to avoid dying.

Last @(*()$ change I will do, but I was pretty damn spot on with the first one.  You never played Ninja Gaiden, did you?

[Callback]

Another problem is the way it randomizes.  Sometimes you get an EASY run with only health vampire, and other times you get timer, no shield, energy drain, enemy level+, ON a fire level, with a stalker.  

[WrathAscending]

I agree that certain combinations should be off limits- no mini-map and timer, no mini-map on mobile defence/sabotage, energy drain and no shields, no shields and melee only (if/when implemented) and so on because those go beyond difficulty and into the realm of outright frustration.

 

Individually, the Nightmare mode conditions are fine... it's just that when some conditions are generated together things get a little silly.

[DB-Tenno]

Ninja Gaiden was not punishing by a longshot. The 2nd and 3rd NG allowed you to chain ultimates even faster. The enemies fought justifiably hard and the bosses were gruelling until you could figure out their attack pattern. The very first boss is a good example of difficulty. Murai was a cold reality slap for newbies who needed to learn dodging, blocking, and timing.

 

Punishing is the No Map function because it's a randomized tileset that can and will use duplicate tiles. It requires no extra skill because all it does is force you to run around like a headless chicken until you find the objective.

Edited July 28, 2013 by DB-Tenno

[Pekku]

Last @(*()$ change I will do, but I was pretty damn spot on with the first one.  You never played Ninja Gaiden, did you?

 

Naw I did, and it really isn't that difficult at all, at least not enough to drive your point home.

 

Why not use those drones we faced in the event for nightmare mode? instead of just not having a map let players kill them to show the way and it becomes kinda different from normal gameplay, maybe even increase their map disruption range a bit more?

 

Now this is an interesting idea, and maybe something everybody can behind of.

[cary2010haha]

hey!To those say no mini map is "fine"'s people plz take a video about 4+4 spy mission without mini map, if you can complete it in 45 mins i 'll say"that's fine"

[Callback]

Ninja Gaiden was not punishing by a longshot. The 2nd and 3rd NG allowed you to chain ultimates even faster. The enemies fought justifiably hard and the bosses were gruelling until you could figure out their attack pattern. The very first boss is a good example of difficulty. Murai was a cold reality slap for newbies who needed to learn dodging, blocking, and timing.

 

Punishing is the No Map function because it's a randomized tileset that can and will use duplicate tiles. It requires no extra skill because all it does is force you to run around like a headless chicken until you find the objective.

Ugh, you're an idiot.  I'm talking NES, not Ninja Gaiden '04.

Edited July 28, 2013 by Callback

[S-7v96]

Ugh, you're an idiot.  I'm talking NES, not Ninja Gaiden '04.

 

How would he have known which Ninja Gaiden you were talking about...?

[Misgenesis]

Casuals, casuals everywhere.

 But seriously i love challenge, keep NM as it is.

[Callback]

How would he have known which Ninja Gaiden you were talking about...?

Because I said it was punishing, trial-and-error gameplay.  Also because '04 is generally used when talking about that one, Just like Astro Boy 2003 or Sonic '06.

Edited July 28, 2013 by Callback

[Tingnok]

tsk too easy

[DB-Tenno]

Ugh, you're an idiot.  I'm talking NES, not Ninja Gaiden '04.

 

Ugh, how can I be an idiot when you just say "Ninja Gaiden"?

 

You automatically assume we could deduce which Ninja Gaiden you meant just by saying Ninja Gaiden?

 

 

Ugh, you're a donkey.

[Wesgile]

should've said "Ninja Ryukenden" then.

ot: no shield, energy drain, etc. is ok, but no minimap is $&*&*#(%&.