Feedback: Cash Shop, the state of F2P in Warframe, the future.

[Nephera]

The free 50 platinum allows F2Pers to purchase slots.

They can have, for example, 3 Warframe and 10 Weapon slots in total if they spend that platinum wisely.

The problem is that most won't know the value of slots until long after they've spent it.

This is pretty important. I'd personally propose making that platinum an earned thing as part of progression to cut down on frivolous initial purchases fraught with regret.

the dollar to platinum obfuscation compounds that problem a bit too.

[UkyoSonoda]

A number of these are good. I hadn't bothered looking into the plat part of the cash shop in general.

I've been brainstorming a number of ideas though that touch on things like player rank progression, alerts, and a few other things that might work loads in stemming some of the more common complaints or gripes in the game. Reason being what really makes or breaks success in a f2p online game is players. If the game has a large and mostly happy community of free players it looks more appealing to make purchases with real money in the game causing a higher conversion rate of free players eventually spending money on things and getting new players that immediatly spend for plat right out the gate after installing.

When I finish ironing out the kinks in these ideas I'll make a new post for them as the issue with proposing new ideas or changes to the free elements of the game is trying to make them so they aren't expoitable and at the same time mutually beneficial to the developer and the user base.

[Hawkeifun]

+1 ced

[ModestAndroid]

I agree with this post!! The orokin system is what upsets me the most. If I don't feel that I am making progression, or that my progression is for naught, I hardly want to play anymore. Orokin should be attainable through missions, lots of play, etc., not money. This is a game that I could see myself spending some money on, but I don't want to spend it just to get anywhere.

[Redler]

The free 50 platinum allows F2Pers to purchase slots.

They can have, for example, 3 Warframe and 10 Weapon slots in total if they spend that platinum wisely.

The problem is that most won't know the value of slots until long after they've spent it.

If DE don't want to change the slot system, I propose they do away with the free platinum and just give F2Pers those extra slots. Or, at the very least, offer some kind of suggestion on how to spend them, as BF amd myself have suggested previously.

I have to spend those plat on PRO because I got my items to 30 before they implement the potatoes, later aka now, I seriously want more slots :/

I'm all in for non-luck based orokin stuff. I'm one of those who can't play for long, as a result, I missed, not 1, not 2, BUT ALL OROKIN REWARDS this game ever put on alert.

When something that help you grow is such a luck based, I don't really feel like I won't play this game for long.

[G3rman]

I have to spend those plat on PRO because I got my items to 30 before they implement the potatoes, later aka now, I seriously want more slots :/

I'm all in for non-luck based orokin stuff. I'm one of those who can't play for long, as a result, I missed, not 1, not 2, BUT ALL OROKIN REWARDS this game ever put on alert.

When something that help you grow is such a luck based, I don't really feel like I won't play this game for long.

Generally people who don't have as much time to play end up being the major market in the cash shop by spending money to make up for lost time.

[Beairre]

Well since there is not many things you can buy just for looks, paying seems just a much much quicker way getting the most powerful gear (Even if you still need to get mods). Who knows what things you will be able to buy only for plat in later patches? Maybe we will get slots for credits too?

[NDroid]

Excellent post, I completely agree. These suggestions will help the game grow and become more profitable down the line simply by attracting and no less important- retaining players who would be more willing to become paying customers.

[lonelydrone]

+1

nothing else to say.

[CigWF]

Hey all, as this will be my first post on this forum, after lurking for a couple weeks, I'm glad it will be on this subject, which is currently one of the biggest issues of debate right now.

(As a preface, I come from plenty of years (maybe too many) gaming, whether it be F2P, P2W, AAA titles, Sub model, Indie games, etc. This is just what I've seen from the number of communities/forums, that I've been around.)

I'll try to go through the points, Ced made in the OP, top-down. Although, I may stray here and there lol.

Also, I'll most likely quote/refer to things said, by Ced, in the original post, but PLEASE don't take this as a personal shot towards him/you, as it is no such thing, just merely using the points, as a basis for mine.

First point, concerning the numerical value of Plat.

While I'll agree that it is, a bit, odd at first, I see no real reason to change it, to match another game. I've spent a fair bit of money on BL:Retribution, and it is nice, to see the amount of Zen you receive is the same as the cash you put in, but I've also purchased in-game currency for LoL, Tribes, GW2, Word of Tanks, Microsoft Points, yada yada. What all those games/services have in common is simple, their in-game currency, doesn't mirror the cash you put in.

The reason I bring this up is twofold:

One, they are all (more or less) remarkably successful, in bringing in more than enough revenue to continue to develop their game.

The second point I'd like to make here is, marketing. While they could, without a doubt, and most likely with zero negative feedback, change the Plat values to correlate to their cash counterparts, there is a reason, not many companies do this.

Say you just bought $20 in Plat. Currently, in your wallet, you are looking at a pretty 2000 Plat. Now you head to the Market, to get you a sexy Warframe. But wait...you look and see that (insert random Warframe here) is being sold for 2000 Plat. You suddenly do not want to spend the sum of $20, on one Warframe.

It all comes down to how the brain perceives numbers. If you can easily see the actual price for an item, you may (and I strongly use MAY, because of course, not everyone is the same) find a little area in the back of your brain, telling you that this is not a good deal.(again, whether it actually is or isn't, is irrelevant)

Again, whether this is "morally" right or wrong, is up to the person asking the question. If there was such a negative reaction, to this type of marketing, companies simply wouldn't use it any longer. If something is proving to be successful, you certainly do not change it before the product is even off the ground.

The addition of multiple price points, is a very welcome suggestion. No complaints at all with that. I'd be willing to bet it would increase Plat sales, atleast 10%.

Slots, or not to Slots

I'm pretty firm in the belief that additional slots, should be purchase only. I'll try to explain why it is, I feel this way below.

Currently, slots are more limiting than just to be convenience.

You've basically nailed it. Unfortunately, that is the point.

Here's the thing, there are tons of games that limit slots, whether it be; characters, weapons, banks, bags, etc. While that alone, doesn't mean that DE HAS to charge for them, it is a pretty well known industry standard.

There isn't much reason not to charge for them, they give you the ability to have 2 warframes, and 6 guns, which is more than fair, when you factor in the amount of time it would take someone to level those 8 items, to max level. As well, if someone does not like a weapon, I really do not see how it is conceivable that DE should fold to giving them more free slots just so they can keep an item, that is likely to not see the light of day again.

You are forcing players to throw away progress to continue with content.

This is simply not true, in the least.

You WANT to level another gun, you WANT to level another Warframe, you DO NOT NEED to do either, in any way, to continue content. Nothing in this game requires you to have every frame, gun, or melee weapon available. That is on you, as the player, to choose to do, if you like. And if you'd like to, you're going to have to shell out $5, to get you a few more slots, of whichever you choose. This is more of an entitlement issue, than a bad game design. Honestly, you have the ability to play what, 20-40 hours of gameplay(only counting leveling, not farming for new items, or mods), with the slots they give you for free. Do you think it's out of the questions, to ask for 5 dollars to double that amount of time?

Orokin Items

I'm pretty much in agreeance, that something needs to be changed. While I'm not 100% convinced that it is the end all be all, that much of the overplayed, melodramatic, forum posts would like you to believe, I do think that as big of an issue as it is now, it will only become a giant one, when more people start coming to this game.

I'd be lying, if I said I had some great idea on how to solve this issue, because just handing them out like candy, I don't feel is the right move. Something like 250,000 credits for a blueprint to make one, may be something that would work, but alas, that isn't my expertise, so I wont act like know the answer.

Cosmetics

No point in talking about this honestly. If DE doesn't know that this will be their major cash cow, and is not actively working on more cosmetic enhancements, then nothing else in this post matters, since the game will not last 2 months into open beta/release.

In Closing

I don't, personally, think that the cash shop, is going to be the big issue with the game, in it's current state. Sure, there are a couple things that need tweaked, revamped, thrown away, but it's a beta, and I trust that they'll get everything right, before they release. We can talk about; Is this fair, Why can't I have more of this, F2P vs. P2W, Moral vs. Unjust, til we're blue in the face. Of course there are valid points, concerns, whatnot, of each party, but you have to look at it from both sides, is all I ask. Let's, as a community, please not turn this game into another, EVERYONE HAS TO HAVE EVERYTHING FOR FREE, and the game stops producing content, 6 months, a year, 3 years, down the line, due to not making a profit.

With that said, here is the biggest thing, that I feel will bring more/keep people here.(I'm not going to talk about more; weapons, frames, mission types, levels, tilesets, or anything else that is glaringly obvious.)

There needs to be a common "hub" area, where people can hang out, show off, afk, chat, in. If you don't have something like this, then the vanity items from the CASH shop, will have little, to no incentive, of being bought. It's pretty commonly known, that people like to show off, let them do it, and you will make a lot more profit.

Edited February 5, 2013 by Cigarette

[Volt_Cruelerz]

I generally try to avoid these threads but since I generally agree with you on things, I figured I'd see what you came up with this time. Low and behold, I agree with you pretty much on everything.

DE has said that their research indicated that gameplay items, not aesthetics would bring in the most money. While I am personally fine with having gameplay items for sale by platinum or must be crafted, the problems with Orokin's are striking. Honestly, at this point, I'm just hoping for a complete and total revamp of the tree system such that it doesn't need something like this at all.

[wot]

Well said and I agree with most of what you said though I still believe that somewhere around rank 4-5 you should unlock at least another warframe slot..

Edited February 5, 2013 by Volt_Cruelerz

[Coverop]

Some weapons require 10-15$ to buy them. I think It's TOO HIGH.

For 75 platinum you can fully buy "colors" and barely Booster 7 days.

[Ced23Ric]

Cigarette:

I pointed out carnie tactics. The reason why companies is clear - value obscursion is the reason carnies use "tickets" for rides instead of having people pay straight-up. Nothing new, still not a single non-shady argument in its favor. Not one. It's a morally poor decision, regardless how you slice it.

And as for the entire WANT thing - no, it is very true. Without leveling new gear, you cannot rank up, without ranking up, you cannot access certain content. Inventory slots are a content limiter, not an expanding mechanic right now. If you don't buy slots, you cannot use the HEK, the Gorgon, etc. You are effectively bared from them, or forced to sell leveled items. There is no decision other than not accessing part of the content or throwing away progress.

Edited February 5, 2013 by Ced23Ric

[Fretless]

Several topics here:

Do away with currency obscursion.

I'm not a big fan of currency value obfuscation, but I don't have strong feelings about it. It's a common trick pulled by a lot of game companies. I'd hope by now that players are at least a little savvy about determining the true value of items when paying with cash-shop-spacebucks instead of dollars/euros/whatever.

Change how slots can be obtained.

Eight weapon slots and two warframe slots are (barely) enough room to keep a core armory that can handle any mission, and still cycle through gear in order to increase your rank. If you want more space to diversify your tactical options, or if you want to 'collect them all,' you can pay for the privilege. Inventory expansion is a pretty common cash-shop item in F2P games. In this instance I don't consider it to be overly limiting or P2W. If anything, DE seems to be pretty generous in not placing restrictions on space for mods and miscellaneous items.

The Orokin System needs a massive rework.

For sure, something needs to change here. I don't necessarily mind getting catalysts and reactors from alert missions, but at the same time I think the alert system needs an overhaul in the way it generates rewards. IMO every alert mission should have a randomized reward, not determined until the end of the mission, and different for each player.

The only reason I don't advocate eliminating catalysts and reactors altogether is that I have some concerns about the current state of content progression. If these are removed from the alert reward tables, then most players will have no incentive to keep running alerts once they obtain a few key artifacts and blueprints. The orokin items can greatly extend players' interest in alert missions. Yes, it's a Skinner box, but so are the loot systems in most MMOs. As long as the minute-to-minute gameplay is still fun, then I don't consider it to be a grind.

Edited February 5, 2013 by Fretless

[Blatantfool]

If the only reason the Orokin items should exist at all is because there is nothing else worth setting as a goal then there is something horribly, horribly amiss Fretless. Something that needs fixing on top of the fact that the Orokin system is bad.

That said, I don't agree that is true. If they where suddenly gone nothing of value would be lost. Players goals would simply shift. Alerts already DON'T get played unless people hear that the Alert itself is worth doing. Without Orokin items the things people are hoping to hear about would be the helmets and the rarer swords. Stuff like that.

There will always be some desirable item for a player to set as their big goal. Or some desirable state. Sometimes it is a Plasma Sword BP - Other times it is farming up to get more then 100% Multishot chance on a Boltor. Regardless those goals are just as valuable as the Orokin items because they serve the same purpose. They DO keep people playing.

The Orokin items don't add a single positive thing to the player experience. The whole supercharge system literally only exists to prevent you from allocating points you've already earned through playing the game and leveling. They don't make you stronger, they give you the ability to play at full strength in the first place.

It isn't a feature worth keeping.

That said, I'd still be willing to deal with Ced23Ric's fix. As long as the worst of the crap system is toned down to a reasonable level.

Edited February 5, 2013 by Blatantfool

[Mak_Gohae]

Cigarette:

I pointed out carnie tactics. The reason why companies is clear - value obscursion is the reason carnies use "tickets" for rides instead of having people pay straight-up. Nothing new, still not a single non-shady argument in its favor. Not one. It's a morally poor decision, regardless how you slice it.

Oh, come on. These a big evil companies.... they dont care about that and any argument based on that isnt going to change anything.

I myself dont care if they showed actual prices but research shows that this method overall better for them.

And as for the entire WANT thing - no, it is very true. Without leveling new gear, you cannot rank up, without ranking up, you cannot access certain content. Inventory slots are a content limiter, not an expanding mechanic right now. If you don't buy slots, you cannot use the HEK, the Gorgon, etc. You are effectively bared from them, or forced to sell leveled items. There is no decision other than not accessing part of the content or throwing away progress.

You can unlock the Gorgon with eight slots. I have only 8 slots and i have the Gorgon.

I havent unlocked the Hek yet but 3 of my things still have leveling to do.

[G3rman]

Oh, come on. These a big evil companies.... they dont care about that and any argument based on that isnt going to change anything.

I myself dont care if they showed actual prices but research shows that this method overall better for them.

You can unlock the Gorgon with eight slots. I have only 8 slots and i have the Gorgon.

I havent unlocked the Hek yet but 3 of my things still have leveling to do.

Call it what you want, any company created is out to make some sort of profit. It isn't appropriate to call it evil because that in turn implies the people who work there are evil. Can it be better for the consumer? Yes, but we all have to make some sacrifices in order to have a blanced system of pay vs play.

[Blatantfool]

Oh, come on. These a big evil companies.... they dont care about that and any argument based on that isnt going to change anything.

I myself dont care if they showed actual prices but research shows that this method overall better for them.

"There are other companies that act like scumbags, therefore all companies should act like scumbags."

Yeah, no. No matter how you try to work that logic around Mak it still sounds pretty dense.

[Mak_Gohae]

Call it what you want, any company created is out to make some sort of profit. It isn't appropriate to call it evil because that in turn implies the people who work there are evil. Can it be better for the consumer? Yes, but we all have to make some sacrifices in order to have a blanced system of pay vs play.

I was being humorous.

I guess i should have put some smiley thing to show this.

"There are other companies that act like scumbags, therefore all companies should act like scumbags."

Yeah, no. No matter how you try to work that logic around Mak it still sounds pretty dense.

Like i said above, i was being mostly humorous.

These companies will try to make their money the best the can.

And what does hiding really do? People figure out the exchange rate pretty quick and everyone here when we talk about buying stuff use the real dollar price anyway.

Edited February 5, 2013 by Mak_Gohae

[Sofiel]

OP I just wanted to let you know I agree with every single point you've brought up. Even your ideas are practically perfect. (Okay nothing is perfect, but they would be major improvements.) I'm really hoping this gets the attention it deserves.

ONE tiny point that I would like to maybe add here even though it's a mix of cash shop and in game currency...perhaps a gambling system. One that can take platinum OR credits. There are so many things I can think of but no matter how you spin it it would boil down to the same thing. A way to gamble for high end stuff like catalysts or special warframe skins (We know they're coming) that also lets us spend our excess credits. I personally like the "Grab bag" or "Lottery" system, where you always win a prize but some prizes are a bit less fantastic than others.

Obviously the rolls on this would be expensive creditwise while they'd remain pretty cheap plat-wise. Perhaps 7 - 15 platinum per attempt (this would equate to a range of 50 cents to a dollar per attempt) and maybe 15k - 30k credits per attempt. Obviously the costs could be tweaked a bit but personally I don't think it should cost you that much to roll with real money. Anyways, that's my idea, but I also really wanted to reply to one statement that bugged me.

Oh, come on. These a big evil companies.... they dont care about that and any argument based on that isnt going to change anything.

So according to you DE is a big evil company? I honestly can't see a way that's true. It's a company taking a lot of risk and wanting to make sure they keep their profit margin sure, but it's not big (In the way that one imagines a "big" company in the video game industry nowadays) and it's definitely not evil. Evil would have put in an energy system that only allows us to do 10 maps a day or buy recharges with cash.

[Ced23Ric]

I'm really hoping this gets the attention it deserves.

Regardless of visual dev presence in this thread, I can assure you this thread is being read, discussed and worked with over in London, Canada. Your hope is warranted, but the implied worry is unnecessary. :)

As for the evil company argument: It's unnecessary obscursion and it blocks the beneficial effects of transactions, too. "Only 50 cents for X? Sure, I got 50 Cents for that."

[Blatantfool]

Like i said above, i was being mostly humorous.

These companies will try to make their money the best the can.

And what does hiding really do? People figure out the exchange rate pretty quick and everyone here when we talk about buying stuff use the real dollar price anyway.

Pretty true.

But honestly it can't hurt to play the game straight up with the consumers. It is desirable purely because of how simple it makes the whole thing. That is why so many people wouldn't mind that change. Simple is nice when it comes to making a purchase like this.

Edited February 5, 2013 by Blatantfool

[sambarpowder]

I'd also suggest random blue print drops from bosses, giving Orokin parts. Let's say, an Orokin power source, some kind of processor and a potato shell, each with their own crafting requirement. These then build into a reactor or catalyst, whose blueprints can be bought at a ludicrous amount of credits at the market. Basically, they could be crafted similar to warframes, but with a more random drop pattern. Not a new idea, but still a possible solution.

[havox2]

+1 Ced23Ric, agree on all points, especially slots, since I've personally hit the slot paywall and with 30 in every slot not playing any more. As time passes more and more f2p crowd will hit the paywall and go away. This needs attention, shrinking playerbase is a big concern.

[_ZAR_]

+1 Ced23Ric, you are absolutely right. The money platinum calculation the orikin as a limiter to progress and most of all i think you came up with a pritty good solution for DE to get money with enhanced XP drops etc.

Thx for your input all the time nice reading your posts ;)!

Edited February 5, 2013 by _ZAR_