Less Zephyr Talk, more Work

[Caelward]

@[DE]Rebecca

I see your comment on twitter, and I just gotta say. We've talked about Zephyr so much that we're practically DONE with the conversation.

Anyone new who joins the Zephyr debate is almost completely unable to add anything new to the conversation and people are consistently crushed when they get mobbed with veteran Zephyr players who tell them 'been there, talked about that, DE isn't doing major ability replacements since Limbo, so that suggestion is useless'.

She's one of the least used, but already one of the most talked about here.

Zephyr needs some love, but she's been talked to death. How about throwing us a bone here?

 

Edited November 25, 2017 by Caelward

[(PSN)abb12355]

I agree, I have made so many Zephyr threads over the past 2-3 years now that now I just gave up.

They say they will release a deluxe skin, but it's a passion project for nearly 2 years, they say they would rework her, yet hasn't even touched her in the slightest for the last 3 (about to be 4 years), and skipped her Prime (but tbh I couldn't care less about skipping her Prime) 

What's the point of making so many rework threads for Zephyr if they fall on deaf ears? What's the point of making Zephyr bug report threads when they are just ignored? One glitch where Zephyr losses her passive after tailwind is still in the game after people have complained about it for nearly 3+ years.

All we want is a Rework and skin that was promised to us 

[Minifig3D]

Well, we can still speculate on possibilities for reworks. Like that her 1 and 2 could be combined into the same ability in the same manner that melee air slam attacks work, based on the angle you are looking down at. Also, it would be nice if she dashed a bit faster so you don't get left behind in the dust by a tiny Titania. Tornadoes I dunno. They seem unreliable but maybe on recast you could direct their movement? If 1 and 2 do get merged, she will need a new ability as well... 

[Birdframe_Prime]

I'm feeling so much guilt right now because I'm the one that's on most of those threads talking to these guys... and I'm the one info-dumping all over them with all the discussion that's come before...

I'm especially guilty because I made it into a running joke how none of the threads I read added to the discussion at all.

I think I'm going to take a break from joining new threads...

[Caelward]

The difference between you and some of the rest of us Thaylien, is that you tend to put more words in.

There's a handful of us who are doing the same thing because we just want some progress. You aren't alone in this.

[(PSN)RenovaKunumaru]

1 hour ago, Thaylien said:

I'm feeling so much guilt right now because I'm the one that's on most of those threads talking to these guys... and I'm the one info-dumping all over them with all the discussion that's come before...

I'm especially guilty because I made it into a running joke how none of the threads I read added to the discussion at all.

I think I'm going to take a break from joining new threads...

No don't stop, or I'll feel obligated to. 

No, but seriously, do I need to go and  revive my old rework threads? We both have the most upvoted threads on the forums and have challenged the integrity of almost every suggestion provided on the forums that have offered Zephyr feedback.

I guess I'm back to the conversation again for every rework. Perhaps it's time to make a video too.

[sherif3000]

Thank you for this @Caelward,

The “Zeph Squad” patronizing other players ideas should realize they doing more harm than good, they keep bringing up their ideas as if they were the “self-proclaimed board of Zephyr aficionados” We all love Zephyr and have our vision of what we want, They have brought up their ideas a million times i.e. on just about every Zephyr post. To the “Zeph Squad” if you truly love something let it be (we’ve all heard you loud and clear) the analogy of the “over bearing mother” comes to mind doing more harm than good.

I agree with you Caelward DE has allowed too much angst to build up around Zephyr, this is the most hush they’ve ever been, even more so than umbra. DE should quell this uneasiness they have caused around Zephyr and throw us a bone.

[Birdframe_Prime]

1 hour ago, sherif3000 said:

(we’ve all heard you loud and clear)

Eh, I'm not saying you're wrong about most of it, except this. The reason we comment on all the new threads is because they're new people, who haven't been here, and aren't able to add anything to the discussion because they literally haven't been there for it.

They haven't read the existing threads, they haven't heard anyone loud and clear.

I feel guilty, as I said earlier, especially more so now that Caelward has brought it up, because of how lengthy and how in-depth I go into concepts and how much my walls-of-text can actually dump onto people. I feel guilty because when I see ideas that have holes in them I can't help but point them out, I can't help but want to see if the poster can actually cover them, so I argue the point with them, at length if I have to. And that often comes off as extremely negative.

But I did it because I genuinely wanted to try and stop the never-ending waves of the same ideas over and over and over again. Every new person coming in brings up with the same things, things that the 'zephyr squad' have debated with newer people for so long we know the arguments by heart. And one of the key things we don't want to see, all of us, is for DE to read these first drafts at reworks and think that it's all we have to offer.

We have good ideas, ones that (based on the things that DE have missed in their previous reworks and patched later) people would miss. We don't want these being overlooked, but it's even more than this too.

I want to see people's threads improved, I want to see their ideas actually spark something in me, in the rest of the 'squad' and say 'hey, why didn't we think of that?'

There is nothing that makes me smile more than seeing NEW things in such an old and staid topic as Zephyr reworking. I go into new rework threads with the simple hope; maybe this one will give us that new idea, maybe this one will come up with an improvement that nobody can see downsides with, that will genuinely break through the frame's tropes... Maybe. I hope so. Maybe. I hope so. Maybe.

And every. single. time. that I read the same seven or eight ideas, round and around and around, it makes me a little sad to think that none of these players have actually seen what could be there.

So what can I do? Smile and nod and say 'good job' to them like they're five year olds with their first crayon drawing? Pat them on the head patronisingly and move on? They are, all of them, able to think creatively, rationally, reasonably. And their presence here on the Forums to pitch a rework idea proves that. I see the potential there, I want to see it improved... I want them to read the other threads, to see what the other discussions have been about, where other people, all of us, not just me, have gone and thought about one or two aspects specifically, then come back with something fantastic that would work, something that improves the whole.

I want their threads to improve because of the work that all the people that have come before them have done.

And maybe I'm too heavy handed, I certainly throw a lot of words at the screen, I'm doing it now. And of course, in a lot of cases, I come off negative because some ideas are just... bad ideas, and the thread poster can see that when you explain it.

We just want something that will actually make the frame better, and 99.9% of the first attempts at reworks won't do that, and I say that from the experience of going through all of my attempts too. My ideas when I first came here would have all been bad. I came to the newer and more improved ones by working with all the other people that were already here.

I just wanted...

To help.

And I got depressed and ended up not helping at all.

[Caelward]

It bothers me seeing a comment from DE that goes 'But actually Zephyr could use some love, Zephyr lovers should post here' with a link to the warframe forum... As if we didn't know it was there? I highly doubt there are many people left who cares enough to say something who hasn't found their way here already.

It's just the new players who haven't made it yet, and its a steep hill to climb for them. They didn't ask for the angst we've built up over the state of one of our favorite, but seemingly forgotten frames.

Just some simple acknowledgement of the years of conversation would have been a hugely different statement. We're going bonkers waiting for some tidbit, any word at all. Instead, radio silence and statements that suggest if y'know, you somehow haven't thought about it, there's actually a forum for this! Crazy!

Edited November 26, 2017 by Caelward

[(PSN)RenovaKunumaru]

2 hours ago, sherif3000 said:

Thank you for this @Caelward,

The “Zeph Squad” patronizing other players ideas should realize they doing more harm than good, they keep bringing up their ideas as if they were the “self-proclaimed board of Zephyr aficionados” We all love Zephyr and have our vision of what we want, They have brought up their ideas a million times i.e. on just about every Zephyr post. To the “Zeph Squad” if you truly love something let it be (we’ve all heard you loud and clear) the analogy of the “over bearing mother” comes to mind doing more harm than good.

I agree with you Caelward DE has allowed too much angst to build up around Zephyr, this is the most hush they’ve ever been, even more so than umbra. DE should quell this uneasiness they have caused around Zephyr and throw us a bone.

Other players ideas aren't being patronized, they're being criticized. 

There's only one chance to get this right so I won't sit by and hold my tongue on ideas that I think won't benefit the frame. I'll challenge them. 

 

[sherif3000]

@ThaylienLet’s both agree that passions are running high where Zephyr is concerned. If this was any other frame I wouldn’t have added my 2cents (not because I don’t care – I main Banshee) but this is Zephyr. A frame that has a very passionate player base. However, sorry to come across as blunt but when passions run high, sometimes its best to lay out the honest truth (albeit that be my honest opinion). Your ideas of what you believe would be good for Zephyr is exactly that, your ideas. Your ideas are totally subjective to you, no matter how much you explain different variations, those ideas are from your perspective. It is impossible for one persons perspective to give the view of the whole i.e. who knows how many play Zephyr, ima suck a number out of my …thumb and say out of a Warframe player base of over 30 million maybe 100K highly passionate players play as Zephyr (totally random number, factual numbers would be nice). My point is what might be good for you or the few who agree with you might not satisfy for the larger player base. As for what you should do (again my blunt opinion), you have expressed your opinion and I am sure the devs have seen it, they’d be blind if they haven’t. There is honestly nothing more you can do i.e. you’ve done your part in expressing your concerns. Sometimes players won’t get what they want that’s a fact of life, not just in Warframe, but at least here we get to ask for totally weird and wacky things. Don’t be that guy that says they can’t have it.

Don’t get me wrong I’d love to have the passion with which you express yourself, don’t change that. And this is just about a Zephyr forum so let’s leave it at Zephyr.

[(PSN)RenovaKunumaru]

@sherif3000

What you aren't understanding is that everyone is offering criticisms to ideas, which is also part of the process of having a discussion. 

Everyone had a right to be heard, and if you're bold enough to post be strong enough to accept the criticisms. There's nothing wrong with pointing out flaws in design ideas from your opinion while sharing your own views of what you believe should happen. 

The point is to have a discussion, of why you believe something should work a particular way and be willing to defend and change when necessary. 

If you can't then why even speak in the first place?

[sherif3000]

@(PS4)RenovaKunumaru Ok sorry, but its coming across as if any idea that doesnt fit the "Zeph Squads" ideas then they are either invalid or the Zeph Squad needs to validate them. which i dont think is the right way to go about it, I also think that this debacle about Zephyr's changes are because DE hasnt been open and transparent as usually are so, That is why I thank @Caelward for bringing this up to @[DE]Rebecca we have a bit of the Lord of the Flies situation where with out supervision chaos reigns. Only the Devs can give us clarity on what the deal with Zephyr is.

[Azzaruth]

I'm curious though, what did Rebecca write on twitter? I tried looking but couldn't find anything.

[Caelward]

On Twitter, Quite_Shallow cracked a joke about Zephyr. " Lets face it, zephyr is not a real bird, she's practically a penguin. DE should rework her Tail Wind into BELLY SLIDE "

Spacemom replied:

"Lets face it, rhino is not a real rhino, he's practically an elephant. DE should rework Rhino Charge into TUSK THRUST. But actually Zephyr could use love (1/2 combo?), Zephyr lovers should post here: https://forums.warframe.com/forum/34-warframes-abilities/ …"

Innocent enough, but I'm on the 'full of pep and vinegar' side of frustrated rather than the 'Just gotta have patience' side.

[Azzaruth]

21 minutes ago, Caelward said:

On Twitter, Quite_Shallow cracked a joke about Zephyr. " Lets face it, zephyr is not a real bird, she's practically a penguin. DE should rework her Tail Wind into BELLY SLIDE "

Spacemom replied:

"Lets face it, rhino is not a real rhino, he's practically an elephant. DE should rework Rhino Charge into TUSK THRUST. But actually Zephyr could use love (1/2 combo?), Zephyr lovers should post here: https://forums.warframe.com/forum/34-warframes-abilities/ …"

Innocent enough, but I'm on the 'full of pep and vinegar' side of frustrated rather than the 'Just gotta have patience' side.

I'll be honest, I don't really get much or any implications from that post other than at least Rebecca thinking Zephyr should get an update, and maybe some annoyance that a frame's physical and naming conventions does not mean they are only that thing. Such as Zephyr being a bird, and Rhino being a rhino. And also some generic GM response from any game sprinkled in on the end telling them to post things here. 

[Caelward]

1 minute ago, Zephyr-Prime said:

I'll be honest, I don't really get much or any implications from that post other than at least Rebecca thinking Zephyr should get an update, and maybe some annoyance that a frame's physical and naming conventions does not mean they are only that thing. Such as Zephyr being a bird, and Rhino being a rhino. And also some generic GM response from any game sprinkled in on the end telling them to post things here. 

And if you read my post all the way through, what you you think 'Innocent enough but I'm frustrated' means?

[Azzaruth]

1 minute ago, Caelward said:

And if you read my post all the way through, what you you think 'Innocent enough but I'm frustrated' means?

I did, but the twitter post didn't give enough information to make any conclusions about anything, which makes it hard to actually see what there is to be frustrated about. Besides, Zephyr is already in a pretty good state, and technically got buffed indirectly with the introduction of Plains since now she actually has a nice map nearly made for her mobility.

[Birdframe_Prime]

11 hours ago, sherif3000 said:

Your ideas are totally subjective to you, no matter how much you explain different variations, those ideas are from your perspective.

Again, I don't disagree with most, again just picking out points I feel you have to understand;

They aren't just my ideas. Mine are formed on months and months of talking with as many other players of Zephyr as I could, both her lovers and her detractors. I came to the conclusions after nearly a year of debates and they incorporate hundreds of refinements from other people. I'm not trying to say I represent everyone, heck the rest will back me up on at least that much... but I do represent the ideas of dozens of reworkers that came before me.

[(PSN)RenovaKunumaru]

11 hours ago, sherif3000 said:

@(PS4)RenovaKunumaru Ok sorry, but its coming across as if any idea that doesnt fit the "Zeph Squads" ideas then they are either invalid or the Zeph Squad needs to validate them. 

This Zephyr Squad, and I can only imagine who you're talking about, came to be because everyone took the time to express their ideas on how we envision Zephyr could be for the game. All of these players consider how she plays now and look for ways to improve her without drastically changing her powers or roles core functionality. That's what a rework is in my opinion.

Not everyone in this "squad" fully agrees with each other's methods 100% and may perhaps think there's a better way to accomplish the same goal, but that's the point of having a discussion. I have a 10 page discussion on just that in which people criticized my work. I persuaded people in some things and they've persuaded me in some things. 

This notion in which you think people's ideas are being dismissed in a team effort is just false. They're being challenged.

When I hear, Zephyr needs to fly for the 10000th time, I don't dismiss it, I've given everyone the same fair chance and asked them "WHY?" The argument hardly ever leaves "b/c she is bird", which doesn't really contribute to much of anything.

Point is, if you don't like criticism why even post?

[sherif3000]

Ok maybe let me take a step back from my previous points, I blame DE for allowing the Zephyr changes to be a point of contention between players, it’s been more than 2 years of speculation (with no affirmation from the Devs), that has lead us to where we are today. More power to you Thaylien for trying to get a cohesive plan for the Zephyr changes I can’t hold that against you. It was inevitable that all the speculation would create a rift between players. I don’t know what DE has planned for Zephyr – My own speculation is, they may have something big planned because we know the DE team have pitched ideas since the reveal of the Zephyr’s deluxe skin as well as the recent Mirage prime leak (i.e. they skipped Zephyr Prime) implying they haven’t forgotten about Zephyr. My point is they definitely have some sort of idea of where they want Zephyr to be, the problem is they are allowing players to speculate on changes that are neither here nor there, these speculation on what the player base wants have clearly caused a division in the different views. I don’t think there is a solution besides the Devs clarifying or at least giving us something solid to work with…Until DE does that there is going to be continued unnecessary “criticism” (unnecessary in the fact that if we knew what to ask for most of the speculation would be clarified)…So I believe it is up to DE to clarify on where they going with Zephyr. The problem is that they are simply not saying anything wrt Zephyr and clearly we need some direction.

[Arkenai7]

4 hours ago, (PS4)RenovaKunumaru said:

This Zephyr Squad, and I can only imagine who you're talking about, came to be because everyone took the time to express their ideas on how we envision Zephyr could be for the game. All of these players consider how she plays now and look for ways to improve her without drastically changing her powers or roles core functionality. That's what a rework is in my opinion.

Not everyone in this "squad" fully agrees with each other's methods 100% and may perhaps think there's a better way to accomplish the same goal, but that's the point of having a discussion.

Unacceptable opinion divergence detected. Bird entity designation @(PS4)RenovaKunumaru report immediately to Hive Eyrie #471924 for reconditioning.

[FinalplayerRyu]

Zephyr is pretty good Frame, its my main since she came out. Only lackluster ability i haven't touched for a long time is her 2, rest works quite well, so what rework should she get? Hopefully not some OP nonsense that so many other frames have.

[Birdframe_Prime]

Report received, Bird entity designation @(PS4)RenovaKunumaru has been placed on Active Monitoring. Failure to report to designated Hive Eyrie within acceptable time deviation will result in forced relocation via high-velocity compressed air technique 1.

3 hours ago, Arkenai7 said:

7 hours ago, (PS4)RenovaKunumaru said:

This Zephyr Squad, and I can only imagine who you're talking about, came to be because everyone took the time to express their ideas on how we envision Zephyr could be for the game. All of these players consider how she plays now and look for ways to improve her without drastically changing her powers or roles core functionality. That's what a rework is in my opinion.

Not everyone in this "squad" fully agrees with each other's methods 100% and may perhaps think there's a better way to accomplish the same goal, but that's the point of having a discussion.

Unacceptable opinion divergence detected. Bird entity designation @(PS4)RenovaKunumaru report immediately to Hive Eyrie #471924 for reconditioning.

This did make me laugh, I'll give you that much XD

[XxaamirxX]

On 11/25/2017 at 6:58 PM, Thaylien said:

I want to see people's threads improved, I want to see their ideas actually spark something in me, in the rest of the 'squad' and say 'hey, why didn't we think of that?'

There is nothing that makes me smile more than seeing NEW things in such an old and staid topic as Zephyr reworking. I go into new rework threads with the simple hope; maybe this one will give us that new idea, maybe this one will come up with an improvement that nobody can see downsides with, that will genuinely break through the frame's tropes... Maybe. I hope so. Maybe. I hope so. Maybe.

And every. single. time. that I read the same seven or eight ideas, round and around and around, it makes me a little sad to think that none of these players have actually seen what could be there.

So what can I do? Smile and nod and say 'good job' to them like they're five year olds with their first crayon drawing? Pat them on the head patronisingly and move on? They are, all of them, able to think creatively, rationally, reasonably. And their presence here on the Forums to pitch a rework idea proves that. I see the potential there, I want to see it improved... I want them to read the other threads, to see what the other discussions have been about, where other people, all of us, not just me, have gone and thought about one or two aspects specifically, then come back with something fantastic that would work, something that improves the whole.

I want their threads to improve because of the work that all the people that have come before them have done.

And maybe I'm too heavy handed, I certainly throw a lot of words at the screen, I'm doing it now. And of course, in a lot of cases, I come off negative because some ideas are just... bad ideas, and the thread poster can see that when you explain it.

We just want something that will actually make the frame better, and 99.9% of the first attempts at reworks won't do that, and I say that from the experience of going through all of my attempts too. My ideas when I first came here would have all been bad. I came to the newer and more improved ones by working with all the other people that were already here.

I just wanted...

To help.

And I got depressed and ended up not helping at all.

As a old Limbo main who's new to the forums and disappointed with the Limbo rework, I can say I've been guilty of the above: not reading others ideas and simply piggybacking off the obvious fixes/changes the players have in mind. I've also learned, after starting to read the forums, that many others do the same. Original ideas that come around tend to either be stuck around complete overhauls or simple QoL fixes, with disregard to the overall situation.

In regards to the rework that came, i highly regret not responding when Limbo was reworked, as he went from my main frame to one I could only somewhat recognize. So don't give up: I'm sure if you keep at it the community and eventually DE will have to listen.  Perhaps I'm just optimistic as I'm new to these things but I'm sure DE will get to Zephyr once the Prime release comes up, and they will take another look then fo sure, I guess thats when you have to pull out the ideas. Perhaps making a main Zephyr rework thread with links to some of the previous rework threads could spark some discussions on what's good and bad,  and work from there?

 

I apologize if I sound overly familiar with the situation, as I am not, I just don't want Zephyr mains to get the short end of the stick hehe