Unofficial Weapon Benchmark

[harly]

The reason you're ignoring it is because different weapons benefit from different mods differently.

 

You made a claim of wanting more accuracy. That is not accurate.

 

So, while you're idea has merit, it's not something that actually provides a more accurate picture. it provides a different picture.

 

That's my point.

[Kinperor]

I'm at loss. Which weapon would be so handicapped by getting a cap on the amount of mods you can place on it?

 

But, fine, if you're insist. Accurate was a bad choice of word.

 

The other points stand. 

[harly]

Because mods affect weapons differently. For example, Crit % and Crit damage mods are only useful on weapons with high crit, and even then their effectivness over adding elemental or other damage boosts is variable on how high that crit is, or adding base damage type mods to a weapon is very variable on how the base damage is distributed over the three damage types, or due to built in bonuses (like elemental) or the need for crit improvement, the benefit of those last mods will be very high, whereas with standard weapons the last mod tends to be a simple grineer 30% boost. That difference alone is huge.

 

By restricting it as you suggest, people are going to have several unused mod slots. And it may turn out that to fill out the un-polarized weapon perfectly almost-but-not-quite maxed mods are needed, due to limited points. So have fun farming up a second or third one just for this extra test. Add to that the fact that some weapons have polarity slots built in, you need to leave empty points spare to make up for them.

 

It is flawed in many ways. But as I said. It's not useless. It just doesn't gel with pretty much every benchmark that has been provided here, and because of the main flaw I mention isn't going to be very useful to people wanting to know what weapon is king and which they should be aiming for to max if that's their thing, because weapons simply don't scale linearly with modding budget.

Edited December 20, 2013 by harly

[Kinperor]

OK I'm just done with this. We're going no where. 

[harly]

Well, I explained it to you in detail, and so did Definitgj:
 

All builds need the damage and multishot mods first. Build differentiation between weapons only start on the later mods, some weapon better with 4 elements, some better with 2 elements and crits mod, some better with 3 elements and speed mod etc. Differentiation only start when you starts to forma weapon.

 

And so did Rompido:

 

weapon A no mods = 100dps

weapon B no mods = 150dps

 

weapon A + mods =  3000dps

weapon B + mods =  2100dps

 

the above example does really happen when you add mods.

 

And not once have you directly addressed that, be it acknowledged or provided evidence to the contrary.

 

You even came back and asked for it to be explained again:

 

I'm at loss. Which weapon would be so handicapped by getting a cap on the amount of mods you can place on it?

 

Which I provide. And then you just say you're done.  OK!

Edited December 20, 2013 by harly

[Kinperor]

I answered to these posts already, hence a heavy sensation of going in circle...

 

Look, Rompido and Definitgj have valid points, however, we don't even know how half the weapons in this list perform without mods. We don't know if weapon A really does less DPS or not than B when they don't have mods in Rompido's example, we just kinda assume it.

 

My question was more toward "why are some weapons MORE handicapped THAN OTHERS" and less "state the obvious to me (again)". I know all that. The point is to know just how bad they are with or without mods. 

[harly]

"adding base damage type mods to a weapon is very variable on how the base damage is distributed over the three damage types, or due to built in bonuses (like elemental) or the need for crit improvement, the benefit of those last mods will be very high, whereas with standard weapons the last mod tends to be a simple grineer 30% boost. That difference alone is huge."

Edited December 20, 2013 by harly

[Kinperor]

OK, look, this is exactly what I'm talking about, we've reached the point where we're re-quoting our own posts. 

 

Look, Rompido and Definitgj have valid points, however, we don't even know how half the weapons in this list perform without mods. We don't know if weapon A really does less DPS or not than B when they don't have mods in Rompido's example, we just kinda assume it.

 

I want to compare weapons when they aren't optimal.

 

I don't give a flipping rat &#! if their damage isn't optimal in this test because it's the point of this test.

 

Now that this is said, please let this conversation die. OK, I get it, you don't want this. Now we can go back to what everyone was doing because we're not achieving anything at this point. 

[harly]

And the point isn't that their damage isn't optimal. The point is that their damage isn't linear.

 

Look mate, you asked the question, after it had been answered several times. Then you asked it again. So I answered it.

 

You even said "why are some weapons MORE handicapped THAN OTHERS"  straight after I gave you 3 quotes answering exactly that.

 

And if you ask it again, I"ll happily explain it again. Cos this is a min-maxing thread. :)

[Definitegj]

A Compromise would be a new list of weapons that disallowed the use of aura, multishot mods and the first base damage mod (serration, point blank, hornet strike), since they are always present, we can take those out. Must leave 2 empty card slots to account for them. Lethal torrents seems to be a must too so can disallow it too and leave 3 slots for secondaries.

 

Rifles - Ban Serration, split chamber, (heavy caliber?)

Shotgun - Ban Point blank, hell chamber, (vicious spread?)

Secondaries - Ban Hornet strike, Barrel Diffusion, Lethal Torrent

 

Melee - Ban fury, reflex coil, pressure point, killing blow

 

 

However, it must be separated into Rifles (all those that use rifle mods), Shotgun, Secondary and melee groups. However, comparsion must never be done across different group as it is not accurate and not relevant. Also hope this can compare weapons without forma and Lech Kril not squishy?

Edited December 21, 2013 by Definitegj

[Kinperor]

And the point isn't that their damage isn't optimal. The point is that their damage isn't linear.

 

And you don't care to know how the damage behave at lower levels? Can you name weapons that definitely need their mods to perform without such a list?

 

 

A Compromise would be a new list of weapons that disallowed the use of aura, multishot mods and the first base damage mod (serration, point blank, hornet strike), since they are always present, we can take those out. Must leave 2 empty card slots to account for them.

 

However, it must be separated into Rifles (all those that use rifle mods), Shotgun, Secondary and melee groups. However, comparsion must never be done across different group as it is not accurate and not relevant.

 

That's one plan I can get behind.

 

But honestly? I don't know why the auras were allowed in the first place. 

[Definitegj]

That's one plan I can get behind.

 

But honestly? I don't know why the auras were allowed in the first place. 

 

Because primary, secondary, melee has access to different auras with different values. We also want to find out which aura (Rifle amp vs Corrosive) is better for that particular weapon

Edited December 20, 2013 by Definitegj

[Definitegj]

A Compromise would be a new list of weapons that disallowed the use of aura, multishot mods and the first base damage mod (serration, point blank, hornet strike), since they are always present, we can take those out. Must leave 2 empty card slots to account for them. Lethal torrents seems to be a must too so can disallow it too and leave 3 slots for secondaries.

 

Rifles - Ban Serration, split chamber, (heavy caliber?)

Shotgun - Ban Point blank, hell chamber, (vicious spread?)

Secondaries - Ban Hornet strike, Barrel Diffusion, Lethal Torrent

 

Melee - Ban fury, reflex coil, pressure point, killing blow

 

 

However, it must be separated into Rifles (all those that use rifle mods), Shotgun, Secondary and melee groups. However, comparsion must never be done across different group as it is not accurate and not relevant. Also hope this can compare weapons without forma.

 

 

Maybe can compare across different groups if we can calculate the % increase those mods have on the timing and add it back later. However, i not sure how to calculate when those mods are additive, not multiplicative and some affect firing rate.

Edited December 21, 2013 by Definitegj

[Kinperor]

 

Because primary, secondary, melee has access to different auras with different values. We also want to find out which aura (Rifle amp vs Corrosive) is better for that particular weapon

 

Well, that's still a damage boost that comes from somewhere else than the weapon. Also, I thought the pistol aura wasn't active yet? 

[Definitegj]

 

 

 

 

Well, that's still a damage boost that comes from somewhere else than the weapon. Also, I thought the pistol aura wasn't active yet? 

 

Yes, because it is not active yet that we need aura to better compare secondaries to Primary because we do use aura in real mission.

[Kinperor]

Fair point.

 

However, in "real" mission, I would also use less firing speed and probably some mutator depending on the weapon. So at some point, the tests we're doing aren't really comparable to real missions, don't you think? And this is without talking about the people who mains Banshee or Rhino. Should they have the right to use Sonar and Roar to further compare to real missions? 

[Definitegj]

Fair point.

 

However, in "real" mission, I would also use less firing speed and probably some mutator depending on the weapon. So at some point, the tests we're doing aren't really comparable to real missions, don't you think? And this is without talking about the people who mains Banshee or Rhino. Should they have the right to use Sonar and Roar to further compare to real missions? 

You can use the same aura for every warframe. You can only use Sonar and Roar on Banshee or Rhino. Focus is on DPS benchmark not e peni.

 

Players can use less firing speed or some mutator. Is their personal choice same as my personal choice of using firing speed mods and ammo box instead or switch weapon while collecting ammo for a short period of time.

 

 

DPS may not be everything but DPS wise there is only one ideal setup.

Edited December 21, 2013 by Definitegj

[harly]

However, it must be separated into Rifles (all those that use rifle mods), Shotgun, Secondary and melee groups. However, comparsion must never be done across different group as it is not accurate and not relevant. Also hope this can compare weapons without forma and Lech Kril not squishy?

 

Yeah it would stop comparisons across groups. They're not remotely matched on those %s.

 

serration max: 165%

heavy caliber: 165%

split chamber: 90%

420%

 

hornet strike: 220%

magnum force: 66%

barrel diffusion:  120%

406%

 

point blank: 90%

hell's chamber: 120%

vicious spread: 90%

total: 300%

 

But we currently have something that shows them compared with each other. Is there not a stronger boss? (sorry rarely run them anymore. no idea).  Alternatively there is the conclave points. We could work out how much the boss scales, and decide on an acceptable range of conclave points (switching out mods on everything else but the weapon being tested can be used to set the conclave points)

[Rompido]

I have taken a back seat to this debate. But, I have been reading what has been said. I think Definitegj has a plan we all can get behind for now. till hopefully another ideal boss comes along.

 

A Compromise would be a new list of weapons that disallowed the use of aura, multishot mods and the first base damage mod (serration, point blank, hornet strike), since they are always present, we can take those out. Must leave 2 empty card slots to account for them. Lethal torrents seems to be a must too so can disallow it too and leave 3 slots for secondaries.

 

Rifles - Ban Serration, split chamber, (heavy caliber?)

Shotgun - Ban Point blank, hell chamber, (vicious spread?)

Secondaries - Ban Hornet strike, Barrel Diffusion, Lethal Torrent

 

Melee - Ban fury, reflex coil, pressure point, killing blow

 

 

However, it must be separated into Rifles (all those that use rifle mods), Shotgun, Secondary and melee groups. However, comparsion must never be done across different group as it is not accurate and not relevant. Also hope this can compare weapons without forma and Lech Kril not squishy?

 

 

I would like to amend it for simplicity sake.

 

1) Ban on all +damage auras to the weapon being used  ( EX: rifle amp for primary , no corrosive , etc )

2) Ban on only these 3 mods - Serrattion / Point blank / Hornet Strike /

3) Melee may use w/e they wish. to include aura since no melee record has set a faster time than 5 seconds.

 

Could I get a vote on this?

Edited December 21, 2013 by Rompido

[Rompido]

oh and I will make a list for the 3 categories  ( primary / secondary / melee ) 

or 4 ( rifle / shotgun )

Edited December 21, 2013 by Rompido

[Chris9428]

I wonder if any DE staff checked this thread out once.

 

-edit-

Also, 3). No Melee has reached any decent time if you compare it to anything else.

 

2) As I said, I'm not sure about banning mods, since I want to see the full potential of a weapon. Though, as long as Kril's so weak, we don't have anything reliable to test the damage of a weapon.

 

1) Damage auras should be banned, yes. 

Edited December 21, 2013 by Chris9428

[Rompido]

I'm sure its a good chance.

[Definitegj]

I have taken a back seat to this debate. But, I have been reading what has been said. I think Definitegj has a plan we all can get behind for now. till hopefully another ideal boss comes along.

 

 

 

I would like to amend it for simplicity sake.

 

1) Ban on all +damage auras to the weapon being used  ( EX: rifle amp for primary , doesn't include steel charge )

2) Ban on only these 3 mods - Serrattion / Point blank / Hornet Strike /

3) Melee may use w/e they wish. to include aura since no melee record has set a faster time than 5 seconds.

 

Could I get a vote on this?

 

So corrosive still allowed?

I vote

 

2) Ban multishot (& lethal torrent), and maybe heavy caliber, vicious spread (which weapon don't use heavy caliber and vicious spread to get best dps on Lech Kril?)

3) I think we can split melee into regular and charge group and then ban fury, pressure point, reflex coil and killing blow.

 

Also, not just banning, must leave equivalent number of empty slots in the weapons.

 

Reason for asking more mods ban: The more mods we ban, the less mod points and then less forma we will need. Best is able to avoid any forma at all, so all unpopular weapons timing will still be taken and contributed by anyone.

 

We can still see the potential relative to each other in the same group.

Edited December 21, 2013 by Definitegj

[Rompido]

So corrosive still allowed?

I vote

 

2) Ban multishot (& lethal torrent), and maybe heavy caliber, vicious spread (which weapon don't use heavy caliber and vicious spread to get best dps on Lech Kril?)

3) I think we can split melee into regular and charge group and then ban fury, pressure point, reflex coil and killing blow.

 

Also, not just banning, must leave equivalent number of empty slots in the weapons.

 

Reason for asking more mods ban: The more mods we ban, the less mod points and then less forma we will need. Best is able to avoid any forma at all, so all unpopular weapons timing will still be taken and contributed by anyone.

 

We can still see the potential relative to each other in the same group.

 

 

corrisve not allowed ( unless you are trying to set up a melee record )

mod slots must remain open.

Edited December 21, 2013 by Rompido

[Rompido]

I understand why you want more mods to be taken out. however it just adds in complexity. don't forget we are also taking out damage auras like corrosive and rifle amp. so for a normal rifle you are already losing 165% + 27% or  -30% armor

 

in the future I'll place a ban on more mods if needed, but I think removing the main damage mod + aura is going to go a long way to increasing the time needed to kill the boss and thus give a better feed back on the weapon.

Edited December 21, 2013 by Rompido