Issues With "the Grind"

[Bakercompany86]

You know, back in the days of WF when bosses dropped less random loot and we had smaller loot tables (no Dojo research mats, etc) the game played a lot better.

 

It played more in the direction of Monster Hunter, which is also a grinding game, however MH has the logic of getting materials of specific monsters to then craft and progress varying types of items (weapons, armors). WF essentially did the same thing, the bosses relatively consistently dropped blueprints for items you wanted to get and hence you played the missions for completion. WF just needed to have a bit more challenge and it would have become a nice challenge based MH with space ninjas, but no, we can't have that.

 

If the game could possibly, maybe, return to that philosophy we would make the gameplay a lot better. However, I see no chance of this happening as now mats are on the market for RM and it seems that WF is going more the route of other loot'n boot RPGs where you just grind S#&$ to grind more S#&$ to grind even more S#&$.

 

 

 

Warframe seems to be in a bad place heading a bad direction at the moment.  I'm enjoying it, but I can see the end of this tunnel and there is just a big brick wall there.

 

This game has a lot of potential, I hope it lives up to it.

[Mietz]

Warframe seems to be in a bad place heading a bad direction at the moment.  I'm enjoying it, but I can see the end of this tunnel and there is just a big brick wall there.

 

This game has a lot of potential, I hope it lives up to it.

 

It has had this potential for 8 months now, and that potential is being squandered.

 

If this game has to compete with other mmo shooter games on the PS4 like The Division and Destiny, this just isn't enough.

[Bakercompany86]

It has had this potential for 8 months now, and that potential is being squandered.

 

If this game has to compete with other mmo shooter games on the PS4 like The Division and Destiny, this just isn't enough.

 

Well this isn't an MMO shooter.  Games like Destiny and Planetside will have their own place in the Market.

 

Warframe is a 3rd person squad based action shooter, and I look at it as such.

 

But it seems like DE was in a hurry to find a solution for endgame content, and slapped one huge bandaid on the project.  I don't doubt they're trying to find solutions, I just wish I knew what they were thinking so I could say "hey that sounds fun" or "man that sounds like you're adding more power creep to this game".

 

I'd actually support an entire revamp of the game.  Do whatever it takes to make the progression good but more linear, and lose the powercreep.  At the same time removing the artificial challenge and adding in real challenge.

[Liminal]

I feel the grind in WF is too binary. You don't see any progress until you get what you were after. Let's say I'm farming a Rhino helmet: I won't see any change whatsoever until it drops. I'm only playing to get lucky, and while I don't the only thing that's increasing is my frustration (which I can feel, unlike my progress to whatever I'm trying to get).

 

That's why I think those who suggested "token" systems had it sort of right. If we could see our every action taking us closer to our desired objective (no matter how slowly) we'd have some very welcome feedback that could alleviate how grinding currently feels.

[Bakercompany86]

I feel the grind in WF is too binary. You don't see any progress until you get what you were after. Let's say I'm farming a Rhino helmet: I won't see any change whatsoever until it drops. I'm only playing to get lucky, and while I don't the only thing that's increasing is my frustration (which I can feel, unlike my progress to whatever I'm trying to get).

 

That's why I think those who suggested "token" systems had it sort of right. If we could see our every action taking us closer to our desired objective (no matter how slowly) we'd have some very welcome feedback that could alleviate how grinding currently feels.

 

I would love the token system over the drop system.  It would work wonders in this game.  Leave all blueprints to the market to be purchased with tokens.  Then I say make all resource drops static across the planet.  

[Mietz]

Warframe is a 3rd person squad based action shooter, and I look at it as such.

 

So is The Division.

[Bakercompany86]

So is The Division.

 

 

Haven't heard of that one yet, I'll go research =D

[scope007]

You know, back in the days of WF when bosses dropped less random loot and we had smaller loot tables (no Dojo research mats, etc) the game played a lot better.

 

It played more in the direction of Monster Hunter, which is also a grinding game, however MH has the logic of getting materials of specific monsters to then craft and progress varying types of items (weapons, armors). WF essentially did the same thing, the bosses relatively consistently dropped blueprints for items you wanted to get and hence you played the missions for completion. WF just needed to have a bit more challenge and it would have become a nice challenge based MH with space ninjas, but no, we can't have that.

 

If the game could possibly, maybe, return to that philosophy we would make the gameplay a lot better. However, I see no chance of this happening as now mats are on the market for RM and it seems that WF is going more the route of other loot'n boot RPGs where you just grind S#&$ to grind more S#&$ to grind even more S#&$.

Agreed I miss update 7

[RaaTheGodEater]

Don't wanna keep going back and forth on this, but, the plain fact of the matter is that no matter what you say? That 3-7% percent will never -feel- like 3-7% unless you get lucky. And just plainly? Most people aren't. Most people will run that mission 100 times and never see a single drop.

But that's simply not true. Most people will see 3-7 drops if they all did it 100 times. A relatively small number of people wouldn't see anything, but far from "most". That's the whole point of the bell curve. The people who will see no drops are at an extreme end of the bell curve, as are people who see a massive number of them. Most people will hover around that 3-7 number.

You know what that means? They had a 0% drop rate. Each time you run it doesn't increase your chance, it's still 3-7% chance. No matter how many times you say it, you -do- have to look at it as a spreadsheet and calculate it on a per person basis. If John Somebody ran it 1000 times and got the item once, that's a nearly nonexistant drop rate and it needs to be fixed.

Yes, it's still a 3-7% chance of getting the drop once PER RUN. But as you increase the number of runs, the probability goes up of you getting a drop. One drop. This is what I'm saying. The probability of getting a drop per run is 3-7%. The probability of getting a drop in TWO runs, is higher. The probability of getting a drop in 10 runs is higher still. It keeps climbing as it approaches a 100% chance. In other words, if you keep going, you will eventually get a drop and if you don't you are incredibly unlucky (which the vast majority of people won't be simply due to the laws of probability).

The chance of you getting only 1 drop out of of 1000 for something that drops 3-7% of the time is ridiculously low. Only a few people will be this unlucky. That is an outlier. If you are one of the few people who can manage to pull this off, congrats, you're like the opposite of a lotto winner.

Edited August 3, 2013 by RaaTheGodEater

[Cradicias]

Hate to say it, but I pretty much am at this point. I've lost track of how many of the new tower missions I've done. Sold so many dang Fang Prime Handles and Bronco Prime Receivers that my head is spinning. And again, not gonna go back and forth on it, so, please, let's drop it and get back to the bigger issue at hand? It's still a hell of a lot of unnecessarily tedious grinding. I'm pretty sure at this point the majority of the player base would prefer a system of guaranteed reward after a predetermined level of effort. To refuse to do something that clearly most people want can only hurt your game, especially one so supported by its fans. There are so many options to alleviate the problem and it'd be nice to see steps taken to do so. A token system could work, maybe implement a partially random system where you have a drop percentage, but the player can select an item as their desired reward, that, if they don't get after so many runs, they're given, while still leaving it open to have random drops in between.

[whitejackale]

No, I like the grind because when you do finally get what you were looking for, it's rewarding.

No. "Rewarding" would be actually having difficult content to beat.

[frostthejack]

I didnt read every post so dont know if this has been said yet. 

 

world of warcraft has a rare mount that drops from a rare mob. it is a garunteed drop but the mob only appears once every week and never at the same time or same place yet every week you will see the same people out hunting it. Im talking about the rare seahorse mount that can be used under water anywhere which was added to the game more then a year ago and yet there are still people trying to farm it.

 

thats not the only thing though wow has so many things that take months to farm to get. I know some one who spent 9 months farming another rare mount in the game

 

The farming in this game is nothing compared to some other games.

[fatpig84]

Still i petition for a token system.

[arch111]

This is all rather worrying for newer players.

I still have 1frame, am looking for banshee helmet and farming to craft weapons and eventually control modules.

So end game farming is far off, still i get doubts of how much time I can spend just waiting to unlock a frame, a planet, Void etc.

When i read so many have nearly all frames, i just feel like giving up.

In my mind, some scaling and metagame depending on player actions should impact drops, enemies etc.

Like events abd alerts do, but on a System wide scale.

bring all onboard, not just weekends.

And give us the story of the Tenno, the old conflict, the frames story, as we play.

[whitejackale]

 

 

But it seems like DE was in a hurry to find a solution for endgame content, and slapped one huge bandaid on the project.  I don't doubt they're trying to find solutions, I just wish I knew what they were thinking so I could say "hey that sounds fun" or "man that sounds like you're adding more power creep to this game".

 

 

 

They just need to create high difficulty endgame content that has very powerful bosses/minibosses that can only be beat when players are "good enough." They need to create actual progression by making it so that tiers of difficulty require gear from previous tiers. You know t1<t2<t3<t4<et cetera.  And they need to make it so that players can be a lot more effective at dispatching enemies and surviving by combining their warframe's abilities. And of course they could add pvp to give people something to do while they wait for expansions in pve progression. Pvp content is very important because it is content that requires very little resources when compared to pve, and most of the revenue that pvp can bring into the game can be used for creating much more interesting pve content.

 

And of course, they need to create different levels of difficulty for different players with different skill levels. Although endgame content is important, it is also important to create content for all players and not just the "elitist" players that are able to beat very difficult content.

Edited August 3, 2013 by whitejackale

[Ob1Kn00b]

As for the situation at hand?  I've been playing fiftyish or so hours, and it's already feeling really awful.  Really, one of the worst offenders for me is the whole dojo resource system: if they removed the terrible dojo loot (I'm looking at you, you goddamn detonite ampules) from the actual loot tables, and instead had them be potential bonus loot, it would help a lot.  As it stands, farming for a rare resource over and over again, seeing the blue pop up, and then finding that it's some damn ampule or whatever just makes me want to bash my face into the screen.

 

 

 

"And of course they could add pvp to give people something to do while they wait for expansions in pve progression. Pvp content is very important because it is content that requires very little resources when compared to pve, and most of the revenue that pvp can bring into the game can be used for creating much more interesting pve content."

 

This is just flat out untrue, PVP would in the end require an absurd amount of attention from them.  Imagine the whining of people on warframe balance being multiplied a hundredfold with demands to buff/nerf things based on epeen performance, not just PVE.  :|

[Cradicias]

Yeah... PvP isn't the answer to content, and for most games involving varied skills and abilities, it just leads to balancing issues and a constant cry from the player base to "Nerf this!" or "Buff that!" There are already Warframes and weapons that need adjustment just for PvE (Looking at you, Nova, you overpowered piece of crap). The game could use some more new mechanics. When they introduced wall running and such it was spectacular. Even new weapon mechanics, like maybe a gun that locks you in place, like a minigun or a weapon that deploys as a turret that you plop down. I dunno. But, definitely more lore content, less grinding.

[whitejackale]

Yeah... PvP isn't the answer to content, and for most games involving varied skills and abilities, it just leads to balancing issues and a constant cry from the player base to "Nerf this!" or "Buff that!" 

Balancing for pvp is not as hard as people think that it is, and it can be done without negatively affecting the pve gameplay.

 

I do not see why "constant outcry" is of importance. If people put forth reasonable arguments for buffs or nerfs, something that should not happen if DE does a proper balancing job, then DE must immediately fix those imbalances. If people do not put forth reasonable arguments, then they must simply be ignored.

 

Ultimately pvp will have both positive and negative effect on warframe. But it is important to understand that the positives far outweigh the negatives.

[Mietz]

Balancing for pvp is not as hard as people think that it is, and it can be done without negatively affecting the pve gameplay.

 

I do not see why "constant outcry" is of importance. If people put forth reasonable arguments for buffs or nerfs, something that should not happen if DE does a proper balancing job, then DE must immediately fix those imbalances. If people do not put forth reasonable arguments, then they must simply be ignored.

 

Ultimately pvp will have both positive and negative effect on warframe. But it is important to understand that the positives far outweigh the negatives.

 

Right now PVP shouldn't even be brought up because half of the foundational gameplay systems dont work properly and need fixing first.

We can talk about PVP once things like Block have a function, rolls have invincibility frames, power scaling is addressed, etc.

[PatrickJH]

Control Modules are impossible to get, 2 days farming in a row and nothing...

[Tempera]

No, I like the grind because when you do finally get what you were looking for, it's rewarding.

 

Rewarding is when I can see a return on the investment I have put into the game. Time, effort, etc.

 

The RNG system as it stands is awful for that, as there's no consistent reward for anything I put into it. Just the hope that if I keep going, eventually I might get this one item I need.

 

By the end of it, I'm usually left feeling irritated at the game for holding out on me so long. Twenty runs of Tethys doesn't sound like much, but that's a solid five hours of gameplay- three days between school, family commitments, and so on- with no significant rewards in between my getting an Ember Chassis and my getting an Ember Systems.

 

Each time I failed to get the item I was looking for, my irritation rose. At first, my sense of anticipation rose- but by the end of it, I was just rushing through the level, shooting Ruk in the face until he died, then rushing out. I was deliberately rushing through content- not playing the game- because I did not know if I would be getting anything this run, or if I was looking at running him another thirty times.

 

There was no tangible sense of progress, which meant there was no tangible sense of achievement through any of the play. Only a sense of "@(*()&#036; finally, now let's never go back to Tethys again" when I eventually got the Ember Systems.

 

Games like World of Warcraft are often derided for their grind-based leveling systems, but they've got one thing going for them; they're constantly making the player feel rewarded for the effort they put in. There's a constant, measurable sense of progress going on.

 

An element of randomness is fine, but basing an entire game around it is much less so.

 

The devs could really stand to look at their RNG system and consider changing it. Quite significantly.

[Cradicias]

I do remember it being a -lot- easier to get your stuff. So, maybe it -is- just cause there's too much crap filling the RNG tables. In which case, narrow it down. Resources get their own, specific drop place. Same for blueprints, etc.

[Arkeon78]

SUGGESTION:  Allow trade in of a similar set.  Meaning, I can trade in X number of Nova Chassis for 1 Nova Systems.

 

You can even make it punishingly hard.  Let's say the systems has a 3% drop rate.  Make the cost of a trade in 30 (yes, thirty) Chassis bps for that ONE systems bp you're missing.

 

I kid you not, I would do this.  I have 24 Nova Chassis bps and counting and 5 helms.  I would grind out 6 more Chassis for that 1 systems any day.

 

It would still be "hard" to get a Nova built, but at least every run you'd be building towards it and not "wasting time".