Adressing the issues of Damage 2.5 : the ragdoll menace.

[LascarCapable]

Il y a 14 heures, A-Midnight-Shanking a dit :

And when this is used on tough enemies? (Eximi, Nox) Punting these guys away without really doing much damage or allowing you to continuously damage them?

The idea itself is interesting, but I think there needs to be a step between Stagger=>Ragdoll that makes reaching the Ragdoll state a modding choice and more enemy specific, rather than an inherit effect for most weapons on all enemies.

To that end I'd suggest only reaching a Ragdoll state if the Impact proc deals a certain % of an enemies health. Otherwise it only leads to a knockdown, with successive Impact procs dealing more damage (on an immobilized enemy).

Of course, still having weapons that reach the Ragdoll state regardless (Sonicor), as a unique effect.

This is some interesting thinking here, though I think it shouldn't be based on enemy health percentage as it could fall down very quickly at higher levels. Instead maybe it could be a better idea to enable full power proc (ragdoll) if both of those conditions are reunited :

• The amount of damage dealt on a single hit is above a treshold cap (let's say that it's fixed at 250% of the weapon's base impact damage for now).
• Impact is the highest amount of damage dealt among all damage types, including both elemental and physical damage types.

This means that you have to effectively mod your weapon for it, as you suggested. For exemple, if you put your usual Serration and Split Chamber mod on your Vulkar Wraith, as you would end up with more than 250% of the base impact damage of your weapon, ragdolling would be enabled. However if you put Stormbringer and Infected Clip after those two to make corrosive damage, you would end up with more corrosive damage than impact damage : thus, impact ragdoll wouldn't be possible anymore. You would have to insert Crash Course in your weapon to enable Ragdolling again. So effectively, you would have to mod for it in order to achieve maximum ragdoll power.

[A-Midnight-Shanking]

7 hours ago, D20 said:

This is some interesting thinking here, though I think it shouldn't be based on enemy health percentage as it could fall down very quickly at higher levels. Instead maybe it could be a better idea to enable full power proc (ragdoll) if both of those conditions are reunited :

• The amount of damage dealt on a single hit is above a treshold cap (let's say that it's fixed at 250% of the weapon's base impact damage for now).
• Impact is the highest amount of damage dealt among all damage types, including both elemental and physical damage types.

This means that you have to effectively mod your weapon for it, as you suggested. For exemple, if you put your usual Serration and Split Chamber mod on your Vulkar Wraith, as you would end up with more than 250% of the base impact damage of your weapon, ragdolling would be enabled. However if you put Stormbringer and Infected Clip after those two to make corrosive damage, you would end up with more corrosive damage than impact damage : thus, impact ragdoll wouldn't be possible anymore. You would have to insert Crash Course in your weapon to enable Ragdolling again. So effectively, you would have to mod for it in order to achieve maximum ragdoll power.

And honestly the higher you go I'd actually like enemies to start being more resistant to Ragdoll effects, as their total health will not be damaged as much from the terrain damage. Leading you to chasing them down. A knockdown lets you focus fire on them during the times where they are at their bullet sponginess. 

This is a design choice though, as I could easily see reasons against this: Ragdolling the enemy gets them away from you and stun locks them more efficiently.

I can see either method working.

One thing that I will say though: Unless there are more mods like Hunter Munitions for Puncture and Impact, things like Crash Course should likely work off of Total Base Damage rather than the total of its type of damage. Reason being that trying to mod for impact will only really be beneficial on high impact % weapons, as those weapons with a low % will get less bang for their buck: Lower overall damage compared to a regular elemental mod, and less of an effect from the Impact proc as a result of Impact damage values only being marginally increased.

[Darkuhn]

Am ‎05‎.‎01‎.‎2018 um 13:15 schrieb D20:

If such a system would get polished enough and become as viable as headshotting for the purpose of dealing damage, I am fairly sure Impact ragdoll would become a very fun, efficient and welcomed change to Warframe. :)

sounds like fun to me 👍🏼

[Darkuhn]

vor 17 Stunden schrieb A-Midnight-Shanking:

I can see either method working.

One thing that I will say though: Unless there are more mods like Hunter Munitions for Puncture and Impact, things like Crash Course should likely work off of Total Base Damage rather than the total of its type of damage. Reason being that trying to mod for impact will only really be beneficial on high impact % weapons, as those weapons with a low % will get less bang for their buck: Lower overall damage compared to a regular elemental mod, and less of an effect from the Impact proc as a result of Impact damage values only being marginally increased.

good idea! I can see that change contributing to modding diversity as it would be easier to mod for a specific status without suffering to much damage loss for taking fewer elemental mods.

Edit: To prevent a massive increase in Slash proc damage, I think it should be effected by Armor so it would be in line with the other dot procs. But this is a rather off topic point.

Am ‎08‎.‎01‎.‎2018 um 10:23 schrieb D20:

Instead maybe it could be a better idea to enable full power proc (ragdoll) if both of those conditions are reunited :

• The amount of damage dealt on a single hit is above a treshold cap (let's say that it's fixed at 250% of the weapon's base impact damage for now).
• Impact is the highest amount of damage dealt among all damage types, including both elemental and physical damage types.

Regarding the Collision System: How would Punch Through effect the Ragdoll? Would it negate the ragdoll because the Round would penetrate the target rather then transfer its kinetic energy? Or would it increase the Ragdoll speed as the round dragges the target with it?

Edited January 9, 2018 by Darkuhn

[(PSN)Boomstickman98]

3 hours ago, Darkuhn said:

Regarding the Collision System: How would Punch Through effect the Ragdoll? Would it negate the ragdoll because the Round would penetrate the target rather then transfer its kinetic energy? Or would it increase the Ragdoll speed as the round dragges the target with it?

I don't know of any impact weapons that also have punch through... that said, I feel like it would still transfer some kinetic energy( 20% or so) and then continue moving onward.

[Darkuhn]

vor 9 Minuten schrieb (PS4)Boomstickman98:

I don't know of any impact weapons that also have punch through... that said, I feel like it would still transfer some kinetic energy( 20% or so) and then continue moving onward.

There are Mods for all weapon types that grant punch through. And all Snipers got punch through with their last rework.

So if I get you correct, punch through would limit the ragdoll power to 1/5 of what it would have been? This sounds like punch through would be a waste on high impact weapons. 

Edited January 9, 2018 by Darkuhn

[(PSN)Boomstickman98]

Just now, Darkuhn said:

There are Mods for all weapon types that grant punch through. And all Snipers got punch through with their last rework.

Ah. I never use snipers, as I hate the feel of them in this game. As for the mods, those are just a waste of a slot for me because weapons I use already have innate punch through, such as the Lenz and Ignis Wraith

[Darkuhn]

vor 3 Minuten schrieb (PS4)Boomstickman98:

Ah. I never use snipers, as I hate the feel of them in this game. As for the mods, those are just a waste of a slot for me because weapons I use already have innate punch through, such as the Lenz and Ignis Wraith

Those are good weapons, but neither of them has high Impact damage, or frequent impact procs so they aren't likely to ragdoll enemys with Impact procs. And therefore these weapons aren't great examples for a collision system based around ragdolls and Impact procs.

If punch through would negate ragdolls by impact procs and reducing them to a stagger regardless of the damage dealt, Snipers/Impact heavy weapons wouldn't ragdoll enemies until the punch through is used up.

This would be interesting, as the first few enemies would only be staggered and the last enemy hit would be ragdolled.

Against single targets All weapons with punch through would behave like they do now, so multiple hits with stagger instead of ragdoll.

Against multiple targets it would stagger the first few and make use of the ragdoll and collision system for the last enemy hit. This could open up some interesting gameplay combos :D

 

[(PSN)Boomstickman98]

13 hours ago, Darkuhn said:

Those are good weapons, but neither of them has high Impact damage, or frequent impact procs so they aren't likely to ragdoll enemys with Impact procs. And therefore these weapons aren't great examples for a collision system based around ragdolls and Impact procs.

If punch through would negate ragdolls by impact procs and reducing them to a stagger regardless of the damage dealt, Snipers/Impact heavy weapons wouldn't ragdoll enemies until the punch through is used up.

This would be interesting, as the first few enemies would only be staggered and the last enemy hit would be ragdolled.

Against single targets All weapons with punch through would behave like they do now, so multiple hits with stagger instead of ragdoll.

Against multiple targets it would stagger the first few and make use of the ragdoll and collision system for the last enemy hit. This could open up some interesting gameplay combos :D

 

They could also make it so that any enemy that gets punch throughed could lose 5 percent health, which can only stack once on top of itself for 10% at most. That said, I have recently been playing around with the Kogake Prime today, and I am falling in love with the impact and ragdoll. My favorite part is when I smack them and they end up flying off screen. when that happens, I cannot help but jokingly shout "to the moon!". The Kogake Prime are quite possibly the best status weapons in game and are impact quite obviously. Hope this works the way D20 wishes if even if they use the formula I posted before, as I don't want to have to give these babies up.