Welcome To Defenseframe...

[Volt_Cruelerz]

...home of the press-4-to-kill-everything.  Please enjoy your stay!

 

Honestly, that's a bit how the game is at the moment.  Endless defense is the most-played gametype and I'm fairly confident I know why.  Let's look at Mobile Defense and Assassination first, though.

 

Both are very popular game modes aside from ED.  While both can be fun, they are both heavily used for farming.  MD crams a large number of enemies into an area at one time, leading to high resource drops for common resources.  When we wish to farm for rare resources or blueprints, we go to bosses.  In other words, we play what we must to get what we want.

 

After we finish farming, we go to ED (which some prefer to farm over MD anyways) and proceed to just attempt to kill wave after wave after wave.  Endless Defense (and T3 Defense) is the only scaling difficulty we have in this game.  It's the only time the game becomes harder.  It's not mechanical difficulty (that's the work of Nightmare mode, though we'll get to that later), it's numerical difficulty.  Even so, it's the best we've got, and so people gravitate towards it when all other options are exhausted.

 

The problem with ED, is that it favors very specific skill sets.  Snow Globe, while not overly useful in, say, capture missions, is a must-have for survival in defense if against Grineer or Corpus.  Frost and Vauban reign supreme as the CC kings.  Nyx, a frame that is practically useless when compared to Volt on Venus, will find herself the queen of defense simply because of Chaos.

 

People want to use the frames they want in the game modes they play.  The issue here, is that when defense is so overwhelmingly popular, players begin to balance solely around endless defense play.  This is a trend I've been seeing and it has seemed to reach a point as of late that is nearing unacceptable.  It's not that I have anything against people suggesting balance changes in this way.  What is unacceptable is the state of the game that would lead to that.  When there is insufficient reason to use the vast majority of the content of the game, players will attempt to make all things viable for what parts of the game remain active.

 

With the most recent livestream, the replacement of Raid with another defense mode was disconcerting.  I understand the reasoning.  Mechanically, it wasn't unique and wasn't well-liked.  That said, it is to be replaced with yet another defense mode.  I'm sure I'll enjoy playing survival mode quite a bit, but that just puts more focus on the ability to deal with hordes of enemies for long durations, coming at you from all sides.

 

The result is what we see: players attempting to reform frames according to what would work in defense.  Not all frames have to excel in this gametype.  Or at least, they shouldn't have to.  As things stand, it makes sense for them to.  If people play ED to the exclusion of almost all else, then those that excel outside of ED will be seldom played.

 

Nightmare was a start, but there needs to be more.  People gravitate towards ED because it is the closest functioning thing we have to endgame.  It is the closest thing to a challenge we've got.  Nightmare introduces the idea of mechanical difficulty rather than ED's numerical difficulty which is great in theory, but as of yet has something left to be desired.  This is fine since it is still relatively new, but the devs must focus on this and work on improving it.  Nightmare should be about throwing harder things at the player, not just taking things away from the player.  I for instance hate intel-based missions because it forces me off my primary.

 

The game must shift its focus towards mechanical difficulty if it is to survive.  Numerical difficulty is fun for a while, but due to the problems outlined above, it must decrease in its importance to the meta of this game.  Nightmare must continue to grow and must begin to flourish.  Enemies must become smarter in a way that is selectable by players.  Enemies must scale in ways other than those that turn them into bullet sponges.  Perhaps make their movement speed increase logarithmically?  That would be a simple change that would necessitate player skill to deal with it for instance.  I'm just spitballing here.

 

Stealth must also grow.  Stealth must be rewarded.  Most importantly, skill, must be rewarded.  Someone once suggested that the energy system should be redone and people should gain energy not from orbs, but from doing things that require effort like headshots, or wall-running to kill something, or stealth.  You get the point.  I don't know if that's the best idea, but the point is, skill must be rewarded.  Right now, time*RNG+abilityToHoldDownLMB+abilityToPress4 is rewarded.  That shouldn't be so.  

 

It's nothing against the RNG.  It's that there is a chronic lack of reward for skill in this game.  There are few things in this game that require players to adapt to them, but because of the general lack of need to do anything with any sort of skill at all, people refuse to use what takes a tiny ounce of brainpower (Burston, I'm looking at you) because they can do just as well without effort when using other weapons.

 

Hopefully you made it through all that rambling, but I hope it ultimately got the point across: the game does not reward skill.  It must shift away from numerical difficulty towards mechanical as mechanical more easily rewards skill.  With such a change, ED may be toppled as the most-played gametype and thus, frames may be able to be balanced around things other than how best to deal with a level 1000 Ancient.  I know mechanical difficulty is more difficult to add than numerical, but it must become the focus of the developers.  It is worth it though.  Rewarding skill gives players a reason to continue play, and by shifting away from numerical difficulty, we can finally reasonably balance around something other than defensive missions.

 

TL;DR: read above paragraph.

[Scheifen]

I speed-read your post tbh, but this should address some of your thoughts:

 

honestly I don't think the current game style will be changed, the main skill-based reward system I see DE implementing is coming with the long-awaited stealth patch you hinted at, which makes stealth a viable game mode and not just a fun thing to do on occassion.

 

Frames without 4-to-win abilities like Loki and Banshee (because of her 3rd, not her ult) that need more finesse, will be main-stays for such things, and more skill will be needed. 

 

EDIT: I know DE is looking at the drop tables also. Fixing the grindy-ness of the game, somehow without removing far-off goals to be worked towards, will make people farm ED and Assassination less. 

Edited August 6, 2013 by Scheifen

[Phatose]

Er...I'm actually of the impression ED's popularity has very little to do with actual challenge, numerical or mechanical.

 

It's popular for 2 reasons:  First, enemies come to you, so you're not spending time chasing them down.  This is part of the reason infested endless defense is the favorite.  Second, it's the only way to obtain void keys without spending money. 

 

As it stands, in most cases endless defense is going to maximize your rewards for the minimum effort.  That's why it's popular.

[E.R.I.C]

yes 11 warframe have mass murder button "4", there is like no creativity at all, different animation yes different mechanics no. no no no no no nope especially nova with a godamn over rampage skill, there is like a lot kind of skill type out there stop making a godamn score cheating button i tought this is a competitive game. nope nope no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no nop nope rape nope nope nope nope nope nope.

 

one of the many way they can balance this game is, make the stealth approach style give good reward.

[Lady_Khaos]

+9001

 

 

I still want to see more things like Vor's Seer drops. Yes it is still RNG, which is annoying, but each part doesn't need to be individually crafted. Over all making the process simpler and more worth the time spent, IMO. As for making it skill based, perhaps an Achievement-type-system could be the way to go, rewarding certain actions with certain mods or even weapons/weapon parts (not BPs). To keep this from totally rewriting the meta game, maybe use it for low tier weapons that aren't easily attainable (like the Pangolin Sword, Ceramic Dagger, etc that are clogging up the Alert Pool)

Edited August 6, 2013 by Khaos_Zand3r

[Boatsniper]

And then Digital Extremes didn't care.

 

No, really. I'm under the impression they don't. How many Overhaul threads have there been and how many have they provided feedback to?

[roydf]

 you right and alot of vertans will soon left but all the new players will come because what happen.

[litlit]

And then Digital Extremes didn't care.

 

No, really. I'm under the impression they don't. How many Overhaul threads have there been and how many have they provided feedback to?

And it's been going on since closed beta.

[Volt_Cruelerz]

Er...I'm actually of the impression ED's popularity has very little to do with actual challenge, numerical or mechanical.

 

It's popular for 2 reasons:  First, enemies come to you, so you're not spending time chasing them down.  This is part of the reason infested endless defense is the favorite.  Second, it's the only way to obtain void keys without spending money. 

 

As it stands, in most cases endless defense is going to maximize your rewards for the minimum effort.  That's why it's popular.

And void keys are used for... farming.  Which I gave as a reason above.  Also, T3 Defense is just a limited duration version of ED.  It's effectively the same, you just can't pick where you stop.

 

 

And then Digital Extremes didn't care.

 

No, really. I'm under the impression they don't. How many Overhaul threads have there been and how many have they provided feedback to?

Eh, just because they don't respond doesn't mean they don't read them or care.  The game I'm a programmer for, I seldom respond simply because while I'd like to, I don't have the power to give official statements, so I don't say anything.  And they have made overhauls before.  The patch I joined in was when Ember got overhauled somehow (never actually looked into how since I didn't play her until sometime around U8).  And then the overhauls-of-overhauls: U7.  The mod system got a complete rework.

 

They aren't afraid to overhaul things if need be, but I assume they just want to exhaust other options before they go spend a ton of man-hours doing so.

[whitejackale]

And then Digital Extremes didn't care.

 

No, really. I'm under the impression they don't. How many Overhaul threads have there been and how many have they provided feedback to?

From the livestreams that I have seen, I have gotten to impression that they do pay attention. Alas, there are a few very vocal individuals that shut down people's ideas whenever they ask for something new and exiting that changes the game into something that isn't "warframe." That is probably why DE does not make certain changes. A good example of this is pvp. It would be a great addition to the game, but there are very vocal individuals that shut down any pvp ideas, no matter how reasonable they might be.

[E.R.I.C]

From the livestreams that I have seen, I have gotten to impression that they do pay attention. Alas, there are a few very vocal individuals that shut down people's ideas whenever they ask for something new and exiting that changes the game into something that isn't "warframe." That is probably why DE does not make certain changes. A good example of this is pvp. It would be a great addition to the game, but there are very vocal individuals that shut down any pvp ideas, no matter how reasonable they might be.

 

pvp would be good, i want to see a team of 4 fighting eachother that is just awesome.

[notionphil]

Most importantly, skill, must be rewarded.  Someone once suggested that the energy system should be redone and people should gain energy not from orbs, but from doing things that require effort like headshots, or wall-running to kill something, or stealth.  You get the point.  I don't know if that's the best idea, but the point is, skill must be rewarded.  Right now, time*RNG+abilityToHoldDownLMB+abilityToPress4 is rewarded.  That shouldn't be so.  

 

It's nothing against the RNG.  It's that there is a chronic lack of reward for skill in this game.  There are few things in this game that require players to adapt to them, but because of the general lack of need to do anything with any sort of skill at all, people refuse to use what takes a tiny ounce of brainpower (Burston, I'm looking at you) because they can do just as well without effort when using other weapons.

 

I was the guy who wrote a post abt skill based rewards I've also written about non-bullet sponge enemies

and lore based multi-mission arcs (which may or may not be the basis for nightmare mode)

 

The issue here isn't that we (we= people who love the potential of WF and want to see it flourish) don't have viable ideas on the forum, or that DE isn't listening. It's that we're not organized enough to present them in some sort of comunity sanctioned fashion. I hate to sound like a political organizer, but we need to come together to make something happen.

Edited August 6, 2013 by notionphil

[Pekku]

Why are people always expecting Warframe to be a totally different game? I play this to fight hordes of enemies and unleash incredible powers when overwhelmed. That is the game Warframe is. It's like expecting Dynasty Warrior to adopt Soul Calibur's fighting system.

[Tempera]

Why are people always expecting Warframe to be a totally different game? I play this to fight hordes of enemies and unleash incredible powers when overwhelmed. That is the game Warframe is. It's like expecting Dynasty Warrior to adopt Soul Calibur's fighting system.

What you are looking for in Warframe is not what other people are looking for in Warframe.

 

Just because a game is enjoyable now doesn't mean it couldn't be more enjoyable if things were changed.

 

Etc, etc.

[Pekku]

What you are looking for in Warframe is not what other people are looking for in Warframe.

 

Just because a game is enjoyable now doesn't mean it couldn't be more enjoyable if things were changed.

 

Etc, etc.

 

Then play another game that conforms to their needs, no need to bend everything to their will.

[Tempera]

Then play another game that conforms to their needs, no need to bend everything to their will.

See the second point.

 

Also, "fighting hordes of enemies and unleashing powers" lacks staying power for a lot of people. It's fine in a single-purchase game like, I dunno, Devil May Cry or whatever, but it won't keep huge amounts of people around for very long, as it gets stale very quickly.

 

And as Warframe is an MMO, it needs more than just a small hardcore crowd to keep it going.

 

The game needs staying power, and to do that, it does need to conform to the expectations of a large portion of the userbase- to a certain extent. That isn't to say that the game needs to bend over every which way for some guy with a boner for massive health pools, but it does mean that it needs to introduce things that it seems like a lot of players want.

 

(Of course, the forums are a really bad place to get information like this, because it tends to be dominated by a small number of very vocal players. But it's a start, and the devs can filter things out.)

[MJ12]

I agree. The problems with Defense are:

 

1. You need to stay stationary to defend the target. Why exactly do we have wall-running again? Or sprinting, even. Or jumping?

 

2. Rewards are the only ones balanced with time, compared to every other gamemode and the only ones which scale with difficulty. Yes, yes, I'll totally play a Pluto Raid or Capture mission so I can get my whopping ONE FAST HANDS mod. Man, screw that.

 

3. Breaks literally every balance point in the game, because of how powers which normally are less effective due to having fixed, stationary areas of effect becoming ridiculously OP. Bastille is okay in a non-defense mission but godlike in. Same with Decoy, or any ultimate, or things like Nova. Nova is only 'OP' on defense missions where 500 guys charge in and set themselves up to chain-reaction. In a normal mission she's potent but very fragile, because her most efficient power (AM drop) requires her to stay still to set it up (also this means she is not dodging which means she dies really fast).

 

4. Cryopod health. Man, defending the Cryo-Fragile-Do-Not-Touch is so annoying.

 

Why not rebalance every immobile mode to have similar rewards to equivalent-tier Defense maps? That might help people a lot.

 

"But rushers a bloo bloo bloo!" you say.

 

Well then, make the primary rewards pop out of killed enemies and lockers. If rushing a map gave you a 5% chance at a multishot, but shooting Grineer gave you a 2% chance at a multishot per Grineer, (as a random example), nobody would ever rush. Ever.

[Pekku]

There are people who enjoy games that are simple and fun. There are also those who finds the enjoyment in challenging themselves on games with complicated mechanics. I like both of them, but Warframe is a game that belongs in the former category.

 

My issue is that people are constantly trying to change Warframe into something else, some sort of hyper complicated shooter. Space Ninja Monster Hunter. Space Ninja Rainbow Six. No idea. I freaking love Monster Hunter by the way. I understand that changes can be beneficial, but I also understand when the changes are going to turn the game into something else.

 

It's hilarious any time in the next patch DE doesn't turn the game into whatever twisted vision they have thought of, "DE isn't listening". It's as if they are trying to bully DE into making their own perfect game for them.

 

EDIT: GRAMMAR!!!

Edited August 6, 2013 by Pekku

[Tempera]

My issue is that people are constantly trying to change Warframe into something else, some sort of hyper complicated shooter. Space Ninja Monster Hunter. Space Ninja Rainbow Six. I freaking love Monster Hunter by the way. No idea. I understand that changes can be beneficial, but I also understand when the changes are going to turn the game into something else.

The thing to consider is that a lot of things that sound really complicated on paper are actually quite simple in practice.

 

Something like, I dunno. Random example time!

 

Say that you're playing a Grineer mission, and a Grineer Heavy Gunner, a Grineer Ballista, and three Grineer Troopers spawn. 

 

On paper, I can make enemy AI responses seem complicated. Lessee:

 

- The Grineer Heavy Gunner fires on the player's position, pinning them down with low-accuracy but high-damage fire. The Heavy Gunner also prevents both it and the Ballista from being meleed with its knockback attack- which also thereby prevents progression through the level, due to the Heavy Gunner then being able to fire at your prone form.

- The Grineer Ballista assists the Heavy Gunner in pinning you down by firing at you if you attempt to peer around the corner to shoot. This prevents players from returning fire without sacrificing a large amount of shield/health in return.

- The Grineer Troopers advance from cover position to cover position whenever both the Heavy Gunner and the Ballista are able to fire, thereby making it safe to advance position. Once close enough, the Troopers will then advance as one unit and move behind the player, dealing heavy damage and attempting to force the player out into the open, where the Heavy Gunner and Ballista can fire on them and help kill them.

 

In practice, all this means is that you then have to prioritize units slightly. Moving in and out of cover- just running forwards and backwards- forces the Ballista to waste ammo, at which point you can kill them, and the Heavy Gunner would be inaccurate enough that you could then lean out and kill the advancing Troopers before having to regenerate your shields.

 

You can then deal with the Heavy Gunner and proceed as per normal.

 

That's one example of how to deal with one group of enemy spawns. While it might sound like complicated play, it's intuitive- shoot the heavy damage sniper first, then kill everything before they can kill you- and requires you to think about more than "S#&$ my shields are at 100 better get back behind cover". Plus, it makes the enemies more intelligent than currently, where the Heavy Gunner will sit in the middle of a hallway and slowly advance no matter how much you fire on them, and the Troopers will hide behind the nearest cover and just shoot occasionally.

[Volt_Cruelerz]

There are people who enjoy games that are simple and fun. There are also those who finds the enjoyment in challenging themselves on games with complicated mechanics. I like both of them, but Warframe is a game that belongs in the former category.

 

My issue is that people are constantly trying to change Warframe into something else, some sort of hyper complicated shooter. Space Ninja Monster Hunter. Space Ninja Rainbow Six. No idea. I freaking love Monster Hunter by the way. I understand that changes can be beneficial, but I also understand when the changes are going to turn the game into something else.

 

It's hilarious any time in the next patch DE doesn't turn the game into whatever twisted vision they have thought of, "DE isn't listening". It's as if they are trying to bully DE into making their own perfect game for them.

 

EDIT: GRAMMAR!!!

A lot of what I suggested in the OP was stuff on top of what we have now.  If you like your simple mass-murder game, I don't particularly care.  You don't have to play nightmare if you don't want to.  You don't have to play Palus, Casta, and Outer Terminus if you don't want to.  If some hard-mode feature was unfun for you, just don't play that.  I allude to that in the OP.  Not everyone wants more difficulty and I can respect that.  Even so, the game should still reward skill.  Otherwise, it's just grinding for grinding's sake.

[Pekku]

@Tempera

That's actually a very good example of elements that could enhance gameplay while retaining the game's core mechanics. Unfornately not everyone shares the same wisdom and hopes for, no, demands something far from being realistic.

 

@Volt_Cruelerz

Just for the record, I have absolutely no trouble with the game's present difficulty, either in ED maps, Void runs, or even Nightmare mode. They're too easy, even. I don't mind difficulty, I like it. But I do not want it presented in a way that changes the whole gameplay experience, which is the point I'm trying to make. Skill should be rewarded, I agree with that, but a majority of the ideas people have doesn't take the whole picture into account; they have no idea the change they suggested would totally imbalance the game in one way or another.

 

For instance, if you change energy acquisition to being rewarded from headshots, it's going to put a lot of weapons at a disadvantage. Weapons like the Gorgon or the Torid where it doesn't rely on accuracy to perform. What about melee then? Is it supposed to discourage melee?

 

Your OP post was very well written, but it addresses almost nothing except that you want skill to be rewarded. That it shouldn't reward the ability to shoot and use Warframe powers. How else should skill be measured in a third person action shooter?

Edited August 6, 2013 by Pekku

[Mietz]

I was the guy who wrote a post abt skill based rewards I've also written about non-bullet sponge enemies

and lore based multi-mission arcs (which may or may not be the basis for nightmare mode)

 

The issue here isn't that we (we= people who love the potential of WF and want to see it flourish) don't have viable ideas on the forum, or that DE isn't listening. It's that we're not organized enough to present them in some sort of comunity sanctioned fashion. I hate to sound like a political organizer, but we need to come together to make something happen.

 

Buy yourself a way into the Design Council, its only 89,99€!

 

No, seriously. The design council is the stupidest thing, you let the players with the most money have a super secret meeting room with the devs and dictate the rules and future of the game. This is in part why we don't get overhauls or gameplay changes but Clan Badges and more guns and Warframes.

Edited August 6, 2013 by Mietz

[mhyr1104]

I didn't read all the wall of texts in here, but I read a few.

 

I agree with people preferring one type of mission over another. I've played several alerts where the missions wasn't a ED or MD and all I will see was a bunch of Novas running around using their 4. I'm not whining about Novas or any other frames with those instant-kill-with-4 since I'm also a Nova player but it's highly irritating when you are the only Ash in a Spy mission with a bunch of Novas using 4 and blinding you. I thought it was only that game, but after I tried some other alerts online, I had a 80~90% chance of meeting 3 people who were using the 'godly defense' frames. This could just be me but it's very irritating when you see games where there is absolutely no variation in playstyle, There are currently 14 Warframes but I only see 4 Warframes most of the time: Frost, Nova, Rhino and Vauban. Where did Ash, Excalibur, Mag, Saryn, Trinity and Volt go? (I excluded some since they did appear but not as frequently as the top 4 I listed, imo anyway)

 

Edit: I meant that I play Nova, but I also have other frames which I change according to what I deem appropriate

Edited August 6, 2013 by mhyr1104

[Tempera]

Buy yourself a way into the Design Council, its only 89,99€!

 

No, seriously. The design council is the stupidest thing, you let the players with the most money have a super secret meeting room with the devs and dictate the rules and future of the game.

Pffft. You really think that the Design Council influences anything outside of Nova?

 

You can't even make threads there. Checking the forum now, we have... two threads giving us sneak peeks at new things being designed and one poll asking us what type of weapons we'd like them to focus on in a future weapons update. Note that we didn't actually get to say "yeah we want a new weapon"- the devs decided that, and just left it up to us to decide if it was a melee, primary, or secondary weapon, and which faction it took its aesthetic from, Corpus, Grineer, Infested, or Tenno.

 

There's also a thread asking us which questions we'd like to ask X member of the team (in this case, the Sound team), in preparation for the livestream that came a week later.

 

Checking the Archives shows a bit more activity. Originally, the devs decided that they wanted to make a Warframe, so they asked us to submit a bunch of submissions of 150 words or less, with up to two images being allowed to be submitted alongside it.

 

The devs then went through all the submissions and picked the five they liked best, and asked us to vote on it. Blah blah blah, we ended up choosing Antimatter, and that was sent off to the other devs. They then posted a thread showing the concept art for the Antimatter Warframe.

 

Then we got another submission thread, where we all got to post ideas for powers, with the same rules as before. And then we got to actually vote on those powers, but only out of the four to six that the devs liked best.

 

And finally, we got to brainstorm on names, before finally voting on Nova.

 

Searching back through the archives shows a bunch more threads giving us a sneak peek at things like the Glaive, and the various stages of the Warframe cinematic.

 

Eventually, I get to a thread asking us which mods we'd like them to focus on out of a bunch- and I don't even think that we got those mods, or at least the Sentinel mod with the highest number of votes doesn't exist yet.

 

Then a couple more sneak peek videos.

 

Eventually, I get back to choosing the name of the Poison Warframe, which is Saryn of course.

 

Then, scroll down and ignoring 'sneak peek' videos, we get to... Wow. Choosing Nyx's name!

 

And then, way back in January, there was a poll asking us if we'd like them to focus on weapons, Warframes, or what.

 

So, over the entire period of the Design Council, we've... named two Warframes, asked them to focus on a new mission type once when they asked us what to focus on way back in January, submitted some mod ideas that never made it through, and designed Nova's theme, abilities, and name.

 

Well, I guess that's sort of dictating the future of the game. If by dictating the future of the game you really mean giving our opinions on a few things to the devs before it's released, and releasing ideas about one Warframe.

[Mietz]

--

 

I was being sarcastic.

 

However my point is how this looks from the outside and how its in my opinion a failure of both PR and marketing.

Its the issue of offering access to influencing development for money, even if that access is only perceived and isn't actually useful (thats a double failure imho).

We normals aren't privy to what you do in there, rumors circulate, etc.

 

This would be sort-of ok if this was a kickstarter, where I -know- that there is no return on my donation, but WF isn't a kickstarter its a beta, or at least thats what the devs tell us it is.