Sentinels, companions, their weapons and set mods.

[Fallen_Echo]

Can we please get the ability to use set mods on our bots/pets?

We have a bunch of set mods and yet 60% of them are completely useless because we dont have any weapons where we can freely sacrafice slots to use them and yet unless specially said i cant slot them into sentinel weapons, kubrows or or kavats.

They just take up place because honestly who would use the ehp set mods when they are exponentially weaker than their base counterparts.

[Birdframe_Prime]

10 minutes ago, Fallen_Echo said:

honestly who would use the ehp set mods when they are exponentially weaker than their base counterparts.

Players who are starting out and don't have the Endo to max out a Vitality, Steel Fibre or Redirection?

Which is why they drop on Earth, in Cetus, which is the new Starter settlement for the game?

Edited January 29, 2018 by Thaylien

[shoopypit]

It would be poor design if all of them were just simply better than every other mod in the game. If you want the secondary benefit, then you lose out on a little bit of effectiveness. 

Andwhat weapon or frame doesn't have a slot or two for mods? Just change the build. You have eight slots. That's plenty enough for setting up a workable build you like

[Fallen_Echo]

3 hours ago, Thaylien said:

Players who are starting out and don't have the Endo to max out a Vitality, Steel Fibre or Redirection?

Which is why they drop on Earth, in Cetus, which is the new Starter settlement for the game?

Vitality is a common mod and gives +200% health at rank 4 while gladiator resolve gives +180% at rank 5, same goes for the shield variants and the armor variant is too weak compared to these.

The main problem is that only a small percentage of them is actually valuable for new players, but with this change you could use almost all of them.

For example the firerate set mod would greatly help the vuklok to reach an acceptable firerate.

 

[Fallen_Echo]

2 hours ago, shoopypit said:

It would be poor design if all of them were just simply better than every other mod in the game. If you want the secondary benefit, then you lose out on a little bit of effectiveness. 

Andwhat weapon or frame doesn't have a slot or two for mods? Just change the build. You have eight slots. That's plenty enough for setting up a workable build you like

Im a min-maxer, all my builds are based around the plan to reach an optional build and unless we are talking about Wukong despite having all frames not a single one of them have a free slot to put in something like these:

 

I do not ask them to be ultimately better than the original ones i just want them to feel like a worthy investement.

Augur accord could have 380% shield bonus and that would by 60% weaker than standard redirection.

Gladiator finesse could grant 120% energy drain to be half as strong as quick thinking.

Vigilante pursuit now unless that changes into an exilus i dont see anybody using that one.

All of the inferior variant could be boosted up to be worthwhile investements and not feel like ripoffs and if thats not gonna happen let us atleast put them on our companions soo they become a bit better.

[(PSN)big_eviljak]

I use set mods on several setups. Have 4/6 hunter mods with my inaros/smeeta combo... Coupled witha high crit primary and 100% status nami skyla, my smeeta absolutely shreds everything.

Im mr23, been playing for years. Set mods are great... Im ready for  pistol and sentinel set mods.

I use gladiator finesse on multiple frames...

Augur accord great on harrow, volt, and mag...

Vigilant pursuit very handy when running loki/limbo...

Set mods are great! More plz!

Edited January 29, 2018 by (PS4)big_eviljak

[Birdframe_Prime]

28 minutes ago, Fallen_Echo said:

Im a min-maxer, all my builds are based around the plan to reach an optional build

Then you don't have to use these mods, not all mods are for Min-Maxing, they don't have to be an investment, they're an active choice and if the effect isn't what you want, then it's not what you want.

How is that a hard concept to understand? Do you want Warm Coat to be worth the investment? Sure, but is it worth it compared to any other damage reduction mod? No. It still does what it does, though, and if you have a free slot and no other mods, it's not a bad choice, just one to be replaced later.

39 minutes ago, Fallen_Echo said:

Vitality is a common mod and gives +200% health at rank 4 while gladiator resolve gives +180% at rank 5

Gladiator Resolve also gives your melee scaling Crit Chance, which previously was only available on the Acolyte Mod Blood Rush, which for nearly a year was considered the de-facto method of melee damage scaling through endless missions. While the combo has become less optimal since Drifting Contact and Condition Overload were implemented the fact remains that this is a pretty powerful mechanic and is considered (by DE obviously) to be the trade-off for using it.

You don't have to like that, but you aren't the one balancing the mechanics here.

While I can understand your point about the 200% versus the 180%, it's still much cheaper, and for early game far easier to achieve a rank 5 Gladiator Resolve than it is to achieve a rank 10 Vitality, and to the more specific difference; a rank 10 Vitality is proportionally worth that investment due to how much health it adds compared to Gladiator Resolve.

But... when I come to think about it, there's another angle to this; if you can't see the min-maxing potential of, say, the Gladiator set... you're not trying to min-max very hard. Combine the Gladiator set with Naramon and any decent crit-scaling/status combo weapon, and you get crit scaling of 275% per level of the combo counter, it might take away some of your initial base damage, but that will rip through things on endless missions, especially with the extended combo counter and the slow-reduction on it from Naramon. Use this with any frame that has CC lor Invisibility instead of trying to tank and you'll find that you don't need the extra health because you're not taking the damage in the first place.

Your style needs to be different when you look at these mods. The mechanics some sets add aren't all that amazing, but for some... there are possibilities. I personally can't wait for the Shield Gating update that DE have claimed to be working on, because the Augur set will be able to bounce a caster's shields back up every time they're down as if they were Harrow, or the Hunter set with a frame like Khora will instantly make that cat the most amazing companion in game.

But for now, I think we can just settle for what we've got.

If all you're looking at is the max stats on a warframe, you're missing out on the potentials of the rest of the gameplay styles. Much like somebody sitting in Hydroid's puddle and wishing there was something more active to do instead of using it to jump out and melee slam everything they've just pulled in and then pump it full of shotgun pellets. It's a simple matter of what style you're playing as.

Free your mind, young tenno, because DE aren't going to go buffing these unless they've had a year of feedback from in-game stats, and only then look for opinions here.

[shoopypit]

I use all 4 of those accept for vigilante vigor. using shield recharge mods don't decrease the amount of time it takes to start recharging your shields. So the benefit from it is, nearly nonexistent. But these mods stack wth other ones. So if you're maxing out your shields, then augur accord is very useful in tandem with redirection, since it also grants overshields. There are other things to min max besides abilities.

[Fallen_Echo]

10 hours ago, Thaylien said:

Then you don't have to use these mods, not all mods are for Min-Maxing, they don't have to be an investment, they're an active choice and if the effect isn't what you want, then it's not what you want.

How is that a hard concept to understand? Do you want Warm Coat to be worth the investment? Sure, but is it worth it compared to any other damage reduction mod? No. It still does what it does, though, and if you have a free slot and no other mods, it's not a bad choice, just one to be replaced later.

I guess you havent seen any of the threads compalining about several mods being utterly useless. This month we even had a one complaining that warm coat is not a worthy investement while it could be.

10 hours ago, Thaylien said:

While I can understand your point about the 200% versus the 180%, it's still much cheaper, and for early game far easier to achieve a rank 5 Gladiator Resolve than it is to achieve a rank 10 Vitality, and to the more specific difference; a rank 10 Vitality is proportionally worth that investment due to how much health it adds compared to Gladiator Resolve.

NOT RANK 10, rank 4 vitality gives 200%.

For early game its much cheaper to get a rank 4 vitality than getting a rank 5 gladiator resolve.

10 hours ago, Thaylien said:

But... when I come to think about it, there's another angle to this; if you can't see the min-maxing potential of, say, the Gladiator set... you're not trying to min-max very hard. Combine the Gladiator set with Naramon and any decent crit-scaling/status combo weapon, and you get crit scaling of 275% per level of the combo counter, it might take away some of your initial base damage, but that will rip through things on endless missions, especially with the extended combo counter and the slow-reduction on it from Naramon. Use this with any frame that has CC lor Invisibility instead of trying to tank and you'll find that you don't need the extra health because you're not taking the damage in the first place.

Your style needs to be different when you look at these mods. The mechanics some sets add aren't all that amazing, but for some... there are possibilities. I personally can't wait for the Shield Gating update that DE have claimed to be working on, because the Augur set will be able to bounce a caster's shields back up every time they're down as if they were Harrow, or the Hunter set with a frame like Khora will instantly make that cat the most amazing companion in game.

But for now, I think we can just settle for what we've got.

If all you're looking at is the max stats on a warframe, you're missing out on the potentials of the rest of the gameplay styles. Much like somebody sitting in Hydroid's puddle and wishing there was something more active to do instead of using it to jump out and melee slam everything they've just pulled in and then pump it full of shotgun pellets. It's a simple matter of what style you're playing as.

Free your mind, young tenno, because DE aren't going to go buffing these unless they've had a year of feedback from in-game stats, and only then look for opinions here.

Currently i use these mods from the sets:

 

These work well for min-maxing my skills, though the set bonus doesnt work if you have overshields and its not the best set choice if you have a rage build.

 

These are good for pushing my weapons even further. 

From everything else on the list 3 of them are redudant for me and everything else is questionable at best.

I know DE will never gonna buff these, if there would be a chance for that we wouldnt see threads about buffing the base status mods every 2 months. All i want is to be able to use all of them if i want, my sentinel is too precisely built to work just as i want but some of them could seriously use more hp, additional radar, more effects on weapons etc..

10 hours ago, shoopypit said:

I use all 4 of those accept for vigilante vigor. using shield recharge mods don't decrease the amount of time it takes to start recharging your shields. So the benefit from it is, nearly nonexistent. But these mods stack wth other ones. So if you're maxing out your shields, then augur accord is very useful in tandem with redirection, since it also grants overshields. There are other things to min max besides abilities.

I know that but other than inaros, wukong and zephyr i dont have any frames what have free slots to put in additional health mods and such.

[Birdframe_Prime]

1 hour ago, Fallen_Echo said:

NOT RANK 10, rank 4 vitality gives 200%.

For early game its much cheaper to get a rank 4 vitality than getting a rank 5 gladiator resolve.

You misunderstand my point and my wording; if you're min-maxing then of course you're going to go for Vitality, but you can't max until you invest, and you definitely can't max until you hit max rank in the mod which takes all ten ranks of investment to achieve. Meanwhile a player that isn't min-maxing the frame and instead min-maxing their output damage via melee (for example) can invest only slightly more to get a max-rank Gladiator mod that does some health, is available at the same point in the game, and has an effect besides health that affects their build for their weapons. In this case, the Gladiator mod set is capable of doing more for the same Endo investment than the Vitality does simply because it has two effects.

The point you're missing here is that a player can simply use something that doesn't max the frame, but maxes another part of what we do. You use the Augur mods, that's fantastic, to you they're worth the investment because the things they do are something your particular style finds interesting and useful.

The things you don't find useful, however? This is the point it becomes pure opinion on your part. When you say 'I'm a min-maxer, this is what I'm min-maxing' it immediately pigeon-holes you into a point of view that precludes you having a good opinion of the other mods. Another person, in this case me playing the other side of the argument, says 'I'm also a min-maxer, but I'm min-maxing this other thing' immediately means I'll include these other mods in the build because they're desirable to me.

Not all mods do specifically what you want them to, but if you don't narrow your vision into the idea that 'the optimal build is where every individual thing I want is at its highest' you open up possibilities in min-maxing that are even better in practical application than the stats on paper would suggest. Sure you might drop a lot of health, but on a lot of frames you don't need max health to be just as effective in game because the style of play you're adopting means enemies aren't attacking. Valkyr, for example, genuinely doesn't need all that much more health because her base armour and any armour mods you put on gives her more effective health than any other frame can achieve without using abilities, not to mention a further buff using her own abilities and the option to become functionally invulnerable on demand. She doesn't need all that extra health, so dropping it for something that helps out her other aspects, like the rage-powered melee mode... can be better.

I mean, look at it this way, you pointed at four mods and said that you have no build, anywhere, that would fit them.

I look at that list and I see only one, which is Gladiator Finesse. Why? Because I genuinely have a hatred of the Quick Thinking style of mods. Mods that drain my energy at a faster rate than my normal ability usage are right out of all my builds. Effective Health is all well and good as an argument, but if I get hit for more damage than my health, I expect to go down and be revived, keeping all my energy so I'll be useful to the team immediately on getting up instead of taking that damage, draining all my energy and being alive but functionally useless for abilities.

It's an effect I don't want, and don't need, despite the fact that it would max out my melee build.

tl;dr you are completely free to not like these mods and to want them to be better, the issue I'm having with the conversation is the stubborn argument that your opinion on them is the one that matters here.

I've been trying to show you that there are other points of view with reasoned arguments and your response has been to insist on your own point of view.

You said it yourself:

2 hours ago, Fallen_Echo said:

From everything else on the list 3 of them are redudant for me and everything else is questionable at best.

"for me"

Your opinion is not fact and not inherently worth more than other people's, opinions weigh the same across the board.

[Fallen_Echo]

6 hours ago, Thaylien said:

 

tl;dr you are completely free to not like these mods and to want them to be better, the issue I'm having with the conversation is the stubborn argument that your opinion on them is the one that matters here.

I've been trying to show you that there are other points of view with reasoned arguments and your response has been to insist on your own point of view.

Im trying to be as objective as its possible.

Gains and loses should be on a near equal state to consider a mod good.

Lets go on the list first with the augur set. The bonus doesnt work when you already have overshields and it hurts rage based builds. The +shields mod offers too low amount, the +status duration mod is too low and is one of the mod stats not many people use. 4/6 useable.

The gladiator set is offering a nice bonus what is useable regardless of your build. The armor and health mod offers too low bonuses so they are not used unless put on frames with innate high armor/health. Gladiator finesse is the less useable quick thinking and because of this its not useable enough to slot in. Energy is too important to waste on the frames what rely on quick thinking so its not gonna get used just because it stacks. The others are fine thought Gladiator vice (attack speed) gets redudant when a player gets primed fury. 3/6 useable.

The vigilante set offers an interesting buff what does not clash with any builds. Vigilante armanents is a great mod what pushes the multishot up to 150%, fervor is in a sweet nice spot thought it doesnt have an x2 bonus for bows, offense only has the set bonus and the lower cost going for it but its still good. Pursuit is too situational, supplies is a mutation mod and needing to slot on in is already bad and finally we have vigor what is entirely useless as it doesnt effect the delay. 4/6 useable.

The hunter set is designed for pet users so the bonus is irrelevant for everybody else. This set has 2 great mods, the hunter munitions and the synergy ehat both has new useable effects. Apart from this we have adrenalin what stacks with rage and great for building immortal tanks. Honestly apart from the status duration mod everything seems fine here. 5/6 useable.

 

Btw i think we derailed a bit, my argument was that i dont have slots to free up for these mods and because of this i must discard every one what is not the "best of the best". I like the mods i just want to be able to utilize them without gimping myself.

[Birdframe_Prime]

Okay, if you're trying to be as objective as possible, I applaud that, however the problem remains that you're not.

21 minutes ago, Fallen_Echo said:

The +shields mod offers too low amount, the +status duration mod is too low

The key point in this statement is that they are too low for you. They aren't too low for me, and they aren't too low for other players. It's like the Gladiator Health mod, I don't put that on high health frames, I put them on frames that don't take damage at all, like Zephyr or Banshee (with her CC melee build), because these frames rarely need the extra health if you're playing them well.

It's very difficult for me to take the argument as objective from you when your base point is one-sided and has no corroboration from others providing builds where they would like to use these mods, but can't, because those builds that you would use them for? Don't need the mods that you'd be replacing to get the most out of.

25 minutes ago, Fallen_Echo said:

my argument was that i dont have slots to free up for these mods

This is exactly the point I'm making, your builds are your builds, you're trying to max a certain thing, and in so doing you're then unable to use the functions that these other mods give you. The Augur bonus does have a limitation of never applying its effect if you already have overshields, but frames in this game sacrifice their shields for abilities (such as Valkyr, Harrow and Chroma) in which case from 0 shields, or low shields, this can bypass the shield regen delay entirely and grant them back shields for use in those abilities faster than anything other than an expensive Arcane or a specific Sentinel/Kubrow mod.

If it is your opinion that you can't spare a slot for these mods, then you just have to accept that you're going to miss out on the effects, if you think the effects are worth it (as some of my builds do, although I'll admit only the fun builds I'm experimenting with rather than the serious long-run builds) then you'll use it and take the hit to the other stats.

Focusing so heavily on min-maxing is setting you up to not trade the stats for the effects. That's all. And that is a fully acceptable state for these mods. They are entirely optional and you don't have to use them, you may not even ever want to use them. That's completely fine because not all mods are created equal.

[Fallen_Echo]

1 hour ago, Thaylien said:

The key point in this statement is that they are too low for you. They aren't too low for me, and they aren't too low for other players. It's like the Gladiator Health mod, I don't put that on high health frames, I put them on frames that don't take damage at all, like Zephyr or Banshee (with her CC melee build), because these frames rarely need the extra health if you're playing them well.

It's very difficult for me to take the argument as objective from you when your base point is one-sided and has no corroboration from others providing builds where they would like to use these mods, but can't, because those builds that you would use them for? Don't need the mods that you'd be replacing to get the most out of.

As i said i can use them on some frames, zephyr, wukong for example. Atleast 2 of the augur sets mods are always equipped along with one gladiator and vigilante mod.

I guess we cant really continue this argument on this basis, in my opinion the gains are not good enough to consider using most of the mods. In your opinion i just need to remake my builds because the mods are perfectly fine. 

I respect your opinion so lets not use up our time anymore with this argument just answer a simple question.

Do you think it would be a good idea to make sentinel weapons, kubrows and kavats use some of these mods?

[Birdframe_Prime]

1 hour ago, Fallen_Echo said:

Do you think it would be a good idea to make sentinel weapons, kubrows and kavats use some of these mods?

Not these ones, no, I think that there should be more Set mods with new effects that we can use that can be applied to Sentinels and Sentinel Weapons, and ones that have the opposite style off effect from the current Hunter set (where placing them on your pet or Sentinel it gives your frame bonuses instead of the other way around).

Basically I think that DE needs to continue expanding on the Set mods in the same way that they've expanded on other aspects.