We Need Endgame And A Challenge - What Do We Expect For Warframe's Future?

[Enguzrad]

Some people REALLY don't like insta-death, btw. I almost never fight Jackel because of this. Unless my group wants to.

 

I hate Jackal's intant kill too, mainly because I can't tell when he uses it. With more obvious pattern it wouldn't be so bad, just take a look at this roller boss and my suggestion how it could work. When big bladed ball is coming at you I'm sure you know you should get out of the way: https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/93398-enter-the-rollerboss/?p=1046243

 

 

Well, that's a valid point. Many people are actually satisfied with the difficulty as is, and it'd be unfair to favor the folks wishing for challenge over those that don't. In conjunction with the difficulty changes, some sort of "slider" needs to be implemented to help control difficulty.

I thought difficulty is controled by choosing lower level missions. And we are not calling for higher enemy stats, we want better AI. More stats is the same we have now, the only difference is that our health goes down faster and enemy's slower.

PS:

Right now only difference between lvl 50 and 100 is just statistics of enemy. Instead of going on high level mission with maxed equipment you can go on low level mission with crappy weapons and the result is practically the same.

Edited August 11, 2013 by Enguzrad

[Eisvogel]

Well, that's a valid point. Many people are actually satisfied with the difficulty as is, and it'd be unfair to favor the folks wishing for challenge over those that don't. In conjunction with the difficulty changes, some sort of "slider" needs to be implemented to help control difficulty.

 

 

-snip-

PS:

Right now only difference between lvl 50 and 100 is just statistics of enemy. Instead of going on high level mission with maxed equipment you can go on low level mission with crappy weapons and the result is practically the same.

 

Exactly this.

Challenge doesn't equal super high diff. Most people get bored about the insane repetition in the game and the lack of challenge... current "difficulty" is just pop up stats and stats and more stats into enemies.... that's not only cheap, but utterly boring. There is nothing challenging about this game, absolutely nothing. At the present time, it's only grinding and cheap stat scaling. That's it. No change of pace, no reaction, no dynamics.

And it really saddens a lot of players, at least i know it saddens me.... i see A LOT of potential in this game, and i believe DE has an amazing team... so i would like to try doing whatever i can to see that potential not go to waste.

[Enguzrad]

Precisely, thats why I don't bother with doing this event at all, even with those mods as a reward. Judging from the increasing completion bar I think we will win this no matter if I play or don't and reward mods are just another +% stats, which would only allow me to kill the same enemies as always, just with higher number at their names.

[Cpl_Facehugger]

There is nothing challenging about this game, absolutely nothing.

Go do a nightmare mission. Keep reloading until you get the energy drain condition. Then come back and tell me there's nothing challenging about this game.

[Enguzrad]

Go do a nightmare mission. Keep reloading until you get the energy drain condition. Then come back and tell me there's nothing challenging about this game.

I tried that already, I'm not using Crush with my Mag so only difference was that I had less fun because I couldn't use pull that often.

[Cpl_Facehugger]

I tried that already, I'm not using Crush with my Mag so only difference was that I had less fun because I couldn't use pull that often.

And you're seriously telling me that running with squishy shieldless mag vs enemies who get a 2-3x damage buff wasn't challenging? I don't believe that in the least.

[jpvi1207]

grineer tileset sabotage mission, we need to destroy a mobile fortress before it reaches a lotus research outpost

[jpvi1207]

Vauban + Frost = pre-required warframes for any group game. When these two frames are required for a group of 4 players, game balance is not really working.

 

Current invite system is bugged to hell, you cant organize a game without issues.

one thing is balance, your confusing it with roles, you cant take a full on offensive frame on a defense, enemies would pass right through the perimeter since your set to kill more fficiently, not to defend

[Enguzrad]

And you're seriously telling me that running with squishy shieldless mag vs enemies who get a 2-3x damage buff wasn't challenging? I don't believe that in the least.

Of course it depends on level of enemies, type of enemy and weapons which are used. But sure If I got into higher level mission I would be screwed. But thats again just a matter of stats.

PS:

I can't say that this game is not hard. It is when enemy can take tons of damage and has gigantic dps. But its still the same enemy as always, I don't have to think much when I'm fighting them. I would be happy if they would use some new tricks on higher levels.

So far Nightmare mod is the best kind of challenge we have here.

Edited August 11, 2013 by Enguzrad

[Eisvogel]

Go do a nightmare mission. Keep reloading until you get the energy drain condition. Then come back and tell me there's nothing challenging about this game.

 

I have.... so what? I complete it just the same..... i obliterate the enemies with beyond OP weapons. You think stat variation = challenge? You think that reaching a wave in defense where enemies have so much stats pumped into them that they 1-hit kill players and take 1 hour to kill are "challenging"? That's just plain boring and cheap.... anyone can put ++++++++stats onto things.... that's not challenging, that's lazy and lame.... there's a difference between challenge/real difficulty and cheapness/punishing.

So again, there's absolutely nothing challenging about this game.

[Eisvogel]

grineer tileset sabotage mission, we need to destroy a mobile fortress before it reaches a lotus research outpost

 

I'll bite... i find it an interesting idea.

Care to elaborate how you thought it and how it would be played to add it as a suggestion entry in OP?

[Cpl_Facehugger]

Of course it depends on level of enemies, type of enemy and weapons which are used. But sure If I got into higher level mission I would be screwed. But thats again just a matter of stats.

All gameplay for all games that aren't Tetris or Sudoku is "just a matter of stats" when you reduce them down far enough. Eis is asking for a challenge while ignoring the challenge that's already there and saying the game isn't challenging.

PS:

I can't say that this game is not hard. It is when enemy can take tons of damage and has gigantic dps. But its still the same enemy as always, I don't have to think much when I'm fighting them. I would be happy if they would use some new tricks on higher levels.

So far Nightmare mod is the best kind of challenge we have here.

 

Recall that my entire point is that Eisvogel is nuts for saying there's no challenge at all. Could Warframe stand to be more challenging? Sure, provided it's the right kind of challenge. (I personally favor improved AI and tweaking spawn compositions for more synergy - ie heavy gunners + napalms together.) But is there no challenge at all? Yeah no, that's wrong.

 

I have.... so what?

So, "hey, I have to change up my gameplay because I can't rely on shields at all and powers only sporadically" is called a challenge, dude. It's exactly what you asked for. You wanted something to change up gameplay and force you to play differently. Nightmare mode does that.

I complete it just the same..... i obliterate the enemies with beyond OP weapons. You think stat variation = challenge? You think that reaching a wave in defense where enemies have so much stats pumped into them that they 1-hit kill players and take 1 hour to kill are "challenging"? That's just plain boring and cheap.... anyone can put ++++++++stats onto things.... that's not challenging, that's lazy and lame.... there's a difference between challenge/real difficulty and cheapness/punishing.

So again, there's absolutely nothing challenging about this game.

Was I talking about Endless Defense? No, I wasn't. I was talking about nightmare effects. Most particularly, energy drain, which does exactly what you ask for: Provides challenge and changes up the game.

But when you say things like this, I have to wonder whether you yourself know what you're asking for. Because on one side you're arguing against bullet sponge enemies, but on the other, you complain about "OP" weapons, even though less powerful weapons directly contributes to the problem of bullet sponge enemies, since a gun that takes 150 bullets to kill an enemy because it has 1 damage and one that takes 150 bullets to kill an enemy because the enemy has 2250 EHP is still taking 150 bullets to kill the enemy.

[Enguzrad]

All gameplay for all games that aren't Tetris or Sudoku is "just a matter of stats" when you reduce them down far enough.

Thats true. Whats I'm not satisfied with is that this is action shooter, but it almost doesn't reward player's skill. Practically only skill we have here is some shortcuts with parkour and headshots. The rest is how long you have grinded mods for your weapons and frame.

(I personally favor improved AI and tweaking spawn compositions for more synergy - ie heavy gunners + napalms together.)

 

At least we can agree on something.

[jpvi1207]

yes,

 

consists in mobile fortresses trying to reach the Comms outpost of the lotus organization, we would have to blow up its core by wasting its exterior armor (landing on it the first place) , explore inside it, find the core room, fight off heavy units while tearing up the cores metallic cover, thus inserting some explosive device giving you time to escape while also battling some mini bosses, then a cinematic would show the grineer trying to repair the core, failing, thus exploding in their faces, ripping them into small particles and showing the mobile fortress blow the F*** up , chunks of thick ferrite armor falling to the ground, and a dramatic background music while all this happens

[jpvi1207]

Thats true. Whats I'm not satisfied with is that this is action shooter, but it almost doesn't reward player's skill. Practically only skill we have here is some shortcuts with parkour and headshots. The rest is how long you have grinded mods for your weapons and frame.

 

 

 

At least we can agree on something.

i can bruce lee kick the crap out of anything, W+spacebar+(shift and Ctrl) repeatedly, thats a cool thing to master

[Enguzrad]

i can bruce lee kick the crap out of anything, W+spacebar+(shift and Ctrl) repeatedly, thats a cool thing to master

Yeah, when I think about it more, we have plenty of things which are skill related... weapons with travel time requires some skill, parkour requires lots of skill to really master, we have blocking, unpolished stealth... all this differs pros from newbs. It may not be that bad as I think.

But I have to ask, does anyone know whether is warframe meaned to be played the way that you change old weapons for more powerful as you play or that all weapons should be useful in some way?

I think that warframes should be roughly equally useful but I don't know about weapons, therefore I don't know what balance to suggest.

[jpvi1207]

Yeah, when I think about it more, we have plenty of things which are skill related... weapons with travel time requires some skill, parkour requires lots of skill to really master, we have blocking, unpolished stealth... all this differs pros from newbs. It may not be that bad as I think.

But I have to ask, does anyone know whether is warframe meaned to be played the way that you change old weapons for more powerful as you play or that all weapons should be useful in some way?

I think that warframes should be roughly equally useful but I don't know about weapons, therefore I don't know what balance to suggest.

yeah blocking ive yet to master or discover

[Keltik0ne]

The game is a work in progress. I think, given the sometimes votriolic feedback given on these forums, that they realise theres a few problems or omissions with the game.

 

It's basically a dungeon crawler right now, though I do love accidently parkouring my way through a huge room and claiming it was deliberate to my team.

[Eisvogel]

yes,

 

consists in mobile fortresses trying to reach the Comms outpost of the lotus organization, we would have to blow up its core by wasting its exterior armor (landing on it the first place) , explore inside it, find the core room, fight off heavy units while tearing up the cores metallic cover, thus inserting some explosive device giving you time to escape while also battling some mini bosses, then a cinematic would show the grineer trying to repair the core, failing, thus exploding in their faces, ripping them into small particles and showing the mobile fortress blow the F*** up , chunks of thick ferrite armor falling to the ground, and a dramatic background music while all this happens

 

Thanks for your feedback, suggestion added :·3

[Enguzrad]

The hardest work wil be with infested. Right now its just swarm of melee monsters. It is not necessarily bad but the only real threat are ancients with armor so high they survive damage from AoE ultimates.
They definitely needs new tricks and enemies, probably some ranged ones.

I like to think about infested as they were zeds from killing floor but that doesn't work as I would like because of our AoE abilities. If I had ultimates from warframe in KF, it wouldn't be as challenging and fun.

There are already disruptors, who steals our energy, but I don't think they are much effective.
Also I think that leaper's battle cry before leaping may be a bit long...
Well our ultimates should be able to clean up smaller infested, ancients will survive it and will still be threat. If we add some ranged infested, they will abuse us from distance, safe from most AoE abilities. That would also increase importance of snipers and quick stealth warframes which would take care of these infested snipers.
They can already stun us pretty well, but they should be able to separate us too. Add some infested with one target pull-like ability.

PS:
What about infested which would shoot little parasites which would snap on player and make him unable to use abilites? You would get rid of him by rolling like with grineer's latchers, but that few seconds before you realize why is not everything dead when you pressed 4 can make a difference.

Edited August 12, 2013 by Enguzrad

[jpvi1207]

he added my feedback? YES!!!

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-nKT11m67hCI/UaQsuhUpg9I/AAAAAAAAE2k/pzhi8SvEA5c/s1600/piojo.gif

[Fundance]

Imo, Warframe should embrace the Monster Hunter formula.

Repetitive and grindy, but in a good way. You take on the same missions again and again, but each time you learn new things. You hone your skills in efficiency while farming for new shinies. Games don't always require a massive endgame in order to be fun, and that's why Monster Hunter is one of the best selling series in Japan.

However to follow this formula, they also need to increase the skill cieling. Not make the game 'harder', but make it more complex. Give players a reason to learn, and a reason to want to learn. Even the most repetitive task can continue to be thrilling if the player is given a sense of achievement and stimulation that increases along with repetition.

[Eisvogel]

-snip-

 

Have you checked the new section i made inside enemies? Maybe you'll like the ideas.... i am planning to do a subsection for each faction.... but it takes some work and i currently don't have much time, so i am taking it bit by bit :P.

I don't think that being melee focus is a bad thing, that's why i brought up the mobility issue..... since in regular non def missions, they are currently just walking targets. Hell you can even just make a jump knockdown melee attack to make them even less effective. They could use some mobility and movement tricks.

[Eisvogel]

he added my feedback? YES!!!

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-nKT11m67hCI/UaQsuhUpg9I/AAAAAAAAE2k/pzhi8SvEA5c/s1600/piojo.gif

 

lol :P xD

[Enguzrad]

So I checked it. If infested could run walls and ceiling, that would be awsome. It would be truly infested mission because infestation would be literally everywhere.

I also got an idea that these... I don't know how to call it... lets say "infested grass" which distinguish infested ships from normal ships could grap player's leg when you walk over it and you would shoot it / slash it to free yourself.
And what about some kind of chameleon infested which would have textures of ship?