My Ember Overhaul Idea.

[jfhsanseiIII]

My proposed Ember changes.  We all know that DE wants to get rid of the one and done mass apocalypse abilities that are on older frames.  So, I propose changes to Ember that would make her what she was intended to be a strong caster, but with some small defensive abilities.  Every change up to now has felt like a band-aid for a frame with a cool idea that has just played pretty boring. The primary goal giving her the ability to make her play fun and dynamic.  So, without further adieu here is where I think we could go.  I intentionally left out number values so if DE is interested in it, they can decide for themselves.  I think Ember should be a fun caster frame that can be used while moving and have solid CC powers, but she needs a little survivability in later levels as well.

Passive: while using her first and second ability Ember gains points of Conflagration for each enemy affected which can be spent when using her third and fourth. She can gain a maximum of 100 points. They can be spent at any time but the more you accumulate.  She will retain her current passives as well.

Health:  100
Shield:  140

Armor:  100
Energy: 175   

I.

Fire ball to Fire
-Enemies affected by any of these will give the player one point of Conflagration.
Getting some fun outside of the sole Fireball to an ability wheel
1. Keeping the current fireball as is without the charge.
2. Fire Trail.  Lays a trail of fire that has a 100% chance to get a fire proc but has lower damage.
3. Smoke Out. Shoots out a cone of smoke in a 45° angle that impairs enemy targeting. The smoke should last a while but as it dissipates enemy targeting should improve.
4. Flame Lash. A quick arc of flame that causes nearby enemies to take a small amount of damage and makes them drop their weapons. The range should be small but casting very quick.
-The Fireball Frenzy augment should probably be changed so players can be affected by any instance of the ability being cast.  So, if the are hit with the fireball, walk through the trail, walk into the smoke, or are hit by the lash.  

II.
Accelerant with some small tweaks
- It will keep all of its normal functionality however it will also affect all fire based abilities cast afterwards.  All enemies affected will give the player one point of Conflagration.
-The affect to Ember’s I abilities.
Fireball will Splash out to any other enemies with the amount of damage being amplified by enemy level, Fire Trail will spread out towards additional enemies leaving a continuing trail behind it.  Smoke Out will reduce accuracy of weapons for the duration of Smoke Out.  Flame Lash will cause enemies that drop their weapons to also have a small chance to drop ammunition boxes.
-The affect to Ember’s III ability
Again the same multiples will be added to the damage.
-The affect to the Fire Whirl
Fire Whirl’s damage is greatly increased when attacking an enemy affected by accelerant.
-The Flash Accelerant augment should remain unchanged.

III.
Fire Blast with a small tweak
My primary beef with Fire Blast is that it is a stationary spell for a frame that is intended to be mobile.  However, I realize that some players appreciate the spell for what it currently is.  So, I thought we could have some fun with this one.
-No matter how you cast it I think that it should cause all enemy ammo that passes through it to cause reduced damage.
-Just pressing the button causes it to cast as it normally does with all the same effects.
-Holding the button casts the same expanding fire wall, but when the fire wall finishes expanding it creates a fire shield that travels with you.  It has all the same properties of the original, but the reduced damage is increased while the damage production is reduced.  You cannot have multiple instances of the Fire Blast shield up.  Recasting the shield will remove the shield and cast a regular Fire Blast.
-Half of Conflagration Points are used increasing the damage related effects for every ten points of conflagration stored up.

-the Fire Fright augment should remain the same.


IV.

World on Fire becomes Fire Whirl
-This was the one I toyed around with the most, but I felt that it should be an ultimate ability that is both fun and deadly, but not too easy to cast and not too demanding. However, it shouldn’t be a fire and forget ability.  Making it active while giving Ember some freedom to use weapons and cast other abilities sounded more appealing to me.  A fire whirl is is a whirlwind induced by a fire and often made up of flame or ash. They usually start with a whirl of wind or smoke.
-Casting Fire Whirl will create a living Fire Whirl that will travel with Ember and attack enemies.  Any fire damage, friend or foe, that passes through the Fire Whirl will increase its size, speed, and damage capability.  The Whirl can be directed, much like Ashes current ultimate, and attacks enemies in the order of marking.  The Fire Whirl moves very quickly.  Only one Fire Whirl can be active at a time.  Any enemies near the Fire Whirl that are not being attacked have a chance to get a fire proc. Only a few enemies can be marked at a time.  Fire Whirl will dissipate after a set time.  Recasting before the Fire Whirl expires will remove the current Fire Whirl and create a new one.

-All points in Conflagration are expended increasing the damage and speed of Fire Whirl for every twenty points consumed.
-The Firequake augment would remain the same, but only affect enemies near the Fire Whirl.

Edited February 28, 2018 by jfhsanseiIII
Tweaks for clarity.

[Cellistara]

So her 1 becomes Nekros 1, Volts 2, Ash's 2 (against Tenno? Seriously?), or a weak copy of Loki's 4.  Basically her 1 just copies other frames in a crappier manner.

Her 2 is the same, but worse?  I have no idea what you're trying to get across there.  Why waste the energy on Accellerant if its only going to slightly modify the way the abilities work.  Better to dump more strength into the build that deal with all of that.  If it gets too complicated most people wont want to bother with it.

Her 3, which was great for defense, survival, and mobile defense becomes overly complicated.  It's Volt's shield, mixed with Gara's vitrify, and again, worse that what its now.

Then, we finally get to her 4 which you want to make into Zephyr's 4.  

You want Ember to lose her abilities and just copy and paste what are basically other frames worst abilities.  Why would I want fire tornados when I can just give Zephyr a fire weapon and do the same thing?  Why would I want a single target disarm when I can disarm everything around me with Loki?  Why would I want a weak "shield" when I can grab Gara and vitrify, or Frost and freeze everything that comes in?  Why would I want a weaker version of Ash's blind, when I could just use Ash and have access to Blade Storm?

Ember is nowhere near as good as she was before, but this would make the old Mag look god tier compared to the Ember you're suggesting.

[jfhsanseiIII]

5 hours ago, Cellistara said:

So her 1 becomes Nekros 1, Volts 2, Ash's 2 (against Tenno? Seriously?), or a weak copy of Loki's 4.  Basically her 1 just copies other frames in a crappier manner.

Her 2 is the same, but worse?  I have no idea what you're trying to get across there.  Why waste the energy on Accellerant if its only going to slightly modify the way the abilities work.  Better to dump more strength into the build that deal with all of that.  If it gets too complicated most people wont want to bother with it.

Her 3, which was great for defense, survival, and mobile defense becomes overly complicated.  It's Volt's shield, mixed with Gara's vitrify, and again, worse that what its now.

Then, we finally get to her 4 which you want to make into Zephyr's 4.  

You want Ember to lose her abilities and just copy and paste what are basically other frames worst abilities.  Why would I want fire tornados when I can just give Zephyr a fire weapon and do the same thing?  Why would I want a single target disarm when I can disarm everything around me with Loki?  Why would I want a weak "shield" when I can grab Gara and vitrify, or Frost and freeze everything that comes in?  Why would I want a weaker version of Ash's blind, when I could just use Ash and have access to Blade Storm?

Ember is nowhere near as good as she was before, but this would make the old Mag look god tier compared to the Ember you're suggesting.

Thank you for your constructive feedback.  I’ll keep that in mind as I edit it.  

-after edit-

So, I was looking at your response and decided I would add some more information to clarify any misunderstanding you may have had.

Her current one is already a fireball.  So I am not sure where you get the nekros comparison.  The two ability is a line of fire whereas Volt's two is Speed.  Ash's Smoke Screen is a stun that leads to invisibility.  My idea is actually smoke that covers an area and reduces enemies caught in the area's ability to hit targets. The final one is accurate, but it has utility with the second ability.

The two ability is unchanged but interacts with any casting of other abilities.  So, how it is worse makes no sense.  I literally said it will "keep its current functionality." 

Her third ability changes depending upon whether you Press or Hold.  How that is overly complicated escapes me. 

Zephyr's ultimate is a CC.  I made this an ultimate that the player can quickly control and move on enemies that the player deems high priority or just wants to take down. The only similarity being that they move around in a circular fashion. 

In conclusion, I feel that you didn't really read the description with much care and it sounds like you are mostly bitter that you can't one button your way through content anymore based on your "Ember is nowhere near as good as she was before" conclusion.  My general idea is to give some versatility to her that would allow players to build her as a defensive, offensive, or control based frame.  Ember won't be going back to the way she was before.  So, might as well try to be positive and try to create something new and fun. 

Edited February 24, 2018 by jfhsanseiIII

[jfhsanseiIII]

I added a few changes that I felt might clarify my ideas for the First and Fourth abilities.  I appreciate any feedback, but keep it constructive.  I don't really want to hear "ember sucks now and won't ever be as good as before" type comments.  DE has said they want to do something about all the abilities that allow players to do little in regards to engaging enemies.  So, I doubt she will be going back to her previous glory.  My idea is for an Ember that can take many roles and dish out the deeps without having to resort to a single spell but use all of them at once for an engaging, fast, and fun experience. 

[Maka.Bones]

I love the utility wheel idea(mainly flame lash), and fire whirl. Also Love how you suggested that accelerant gained unique interactions between each ability (not just the base increase). 

The passive would definitely help out dealing increased damage. 

My favorite thing about this rework concept is that You're giving ember utility, outside of just dealing damage. But you're not totally removing her capacity for damage. This gives players more options. And when her abilities can't be used to kill enemies, she can still use them for their utility purposes (without seriously exposing herself) 

[jfhsanseiIII]

9 minutes ago, Maka.Bones said:

I love the utility wheel idea(mainly flame lash), and fire whirl. Also Love how you suggested that accelerant gained unique interactions between each ability (not just the base increase). 

The passive would definitely help out dealing increased damage. 

My favorite thing about this rework concept is that You're giving ember utility, outside of just dealing damage. But you're not totally removing her capacity for damage. This gives players more options. And when her abilities can't be used to kill enemies, she can still use them for their utility purposes (without seriously exposing herself) 

Thank you for the positive feedback.  Don’t be afraid to give some criticism as well.  My hope is that it will get the discussion ball rolling and anyone can chime in with their own ideas.  Ember is a great idea for a frame, but she really falls behind newer frames.  Let’s make Ember great.  

[Maka.Bones]

9 minutes ago, jfhsanseiIII said:

Thank you for the positive feedback.  Don’t be afraid to give some criticism as well.  My hope is that it will get the discussion ball rolling and anyone can chime in with their own ideas.  Ember is a great idea for a frame, but she really falls behind newer frames.  Let’s make Ember great.  

Only criticism I can think of currently, is that they're a lot to change xD 

Mainly because DE is currently in crunch mode. So I suspect that we won't be seeing any ember changes until after tennocon/sacrifice/khora.

I still haven't thoroughly analyzed all of the ideas & their synergy. Though at first impression, you seemed to have given them enough flexibility/options to help compensate for any drawbacks. 

Edit: Honestly, I had also thought of the utility wheel to ember's 1st, along with a fire lash (flamewhip), and a fire trail ability... but I couldn't think of a 4th ability to add. And they're already adding khora (with her whip) so I thought that maybe they might want to keep the whip idea unique to her, since it's a new frame and all. That's why i really like your idea for her 1st xD

only thing I see lacking, is that you didn't add heatdrive :P (or some movement/charge + explooding ability)

Edited March 17, 2018 by Maka.Bones

[BigPapiPimp]

6 minutes ago, jfhsanseiIII said:

Thank you for the positive feedback.  Don’t be afraid to give some criticism as well.  

 

4 minutes ago, Maka.Bones said:

Only criticism I can think of currently, is that they're a lot to change xD 

I have the same sentiment, I made a thread based around keeping her base functions all the same, but it got slid, so I can assume everyone who is interested in ember currently is NOT interest in her current kit.

Or were just busy 6 hours ago/didn’t like my alterations lol.

Either way great work OP, glad to see people interested in going over our fire chicken frame!

[Maka.Bones]

1 minute ago, BigPapiPimp said:

 

I have the same sentiment, I made a thread based around keeping her base functions all the same, but it got slid, so I can assume everyone who is interested in ember currently is NOT interest in her current kit.

Or were just busy 6 hours ago/didn’t like my alterations lol.

Either way great work OP, glad to see people interested in going over our fire chicken frame!

Think I missed it. I'll look for it!

[BigPapiPimp]

11 minutes ago, Maka.Bones said:

Think I missed it. I'll look for it!

No bother, it was just surprising to see an ember thread without at least some salt posts lol. It was just a slimmed down version of an older poster, new ideas, didn’t add in anything that would take would require new animation.

Will the conflagration stacks fade away like atlas’ passive, or are they there to stay once made?

Edited March 17, 2018 by BigPapiPimp

[Maka.Bones]

1 minute ago, BigPapiPimp said:

No bother, it was just surprising to see an ember thread without at least some salt posts lol

Will the conflagration stacks fade away like atlas’ passive, or are they there to stay once made?

I think they're consumed with use. Like nidus' stacks. 

[BigPapiPimp]

6 minutes ago, Maka.Bones said:

I think they're consumed with use. Like nidus' stacks. 

I meant when their not in use? Could you build a hundred stacks, then never cast another ability and end the mission with 100 stacks?

Edited March 17, 2018 by BigPapiPimp

[jfhsanseiIII]

1 hour ago, BigPapiPimp said:

No bother, it was just surprising to see an ember thread without at least some salt posts lol. It was just a slimmed down version of an older poster, new ideas, didn’t add in anything that would take would require new animation.

Will the conflagration stacks fade away like atlas’ passive, or are they there to stay once made?

It would be my hope that people would be using them in a way that would suit the situation/mission.  So, they would just stack until used. 

[Maka.Bones]

Reading this again, and I really like your suggestion for fireblast too. 

One thing about fire whirl though:

1. How is it different from current WoF (outside of it not being an AoE... But it's still somewhat of an AoE, because it automatically attacks enemies inside it's threat range)... ?
2. How much damage will it do?
3. What's the travel speed in-between targets?
4. Is it sort of like a fire-pet? 
5. Can it also be targeted by enemies?

I still like your overall suggestions tbh. It would make ember a lot more interactive & dynamic. If the CCs were strong enough (and last long enough) then I'd pretty much like this concept as a whole. 

Edited March 20, 2018 by Maka.Bones