Semi-Auto Paired Secondaries

[SteamlordD]

I think a lot about how "upgrading" your secondaries to the dual variant increases magazine size and fire rate, at the cost of reload speed and accuracy, and how semi-autos are just bad because of the innate fire rate cap on them, even if you do something silly like binding fire to mouse wheel. It would be really nice if there were something that could make it less of an issue, something that could help them fire more quickly, and actually get something out of the trade. I almost feel like there's something already in the game, but it's only on one weapon, and it makes that weapon handle like a steaming pile in spite of its overkill stats.

Oh yeah, that's what it was.

DUPLEX

Giving all of the paired semi-auto secondaries an alternate fire mode that enables duplex, the idea that makes the Tigris cumbersome and clunky, but for a much better cause.

Edited March 8, 2018 by SteamlordD

[YUNoJump]

Semi-auto pistols just need a more comprehensive balance pass, most of the semi-auto weapons that have a fire rate faster than a human can reasonably attain are just really old (magnus, vasto, bolto, bronco, even the lato). Duplex sounds needlessly complicated.

The unattainable fire rate is designed to cause players to form their own natural fire rate, by balancing high fire rate against recoil.For instance, if you fire the Akbolto at max fire rate with a macro or whatever, you'll find it's borderline impossible to land accurate shots past medium range due to the recoil; when you fire them normally, you fire them as soon as you've recovered from the recoil and aimed at something again. IMO it's an interesting, organic system, and it would be much easier to buff weapon damage with that system in mind, than add weird firing modes to the weapons that turn them into something they're not supposed to be.

[SteamlordD]

10 minutes ago, YUNoJump said:

Semi-auto pistols just need a more comprehensive balance pass, most of the semi-auto weapons that have a fire rate faster than a human can reasonably attain are just really old (magnus, vasto, bolto, bronco, even the lato). Duplex sounds needlessly complicated.

The unattainable fire rate is designed to cause players to form their own natural fire rate, by balancing high fire rate against recoil.For instance, if you fire the Akbolto at max fire rate with a macro or whatever, you'll find it's borderline impossible to land accurate shots past medium range due to the recoil; when you fire them normally, you fire them as soon as you've recovered from the recoil and aimed at something again. IMO it's an interesting, organic system, and it would be much easier to buff weapon damage with that system in mind, than add weird firing modes to the weapons that turn them into something they're not supposed to be.

They're supposed to get more fire rate. They don't. Semi-automatic weapons have a hard fire rate cap, which most paired secondaries exceed. Beyond not being able to click quickly enough, it's capped, probably to try to be fair to people who can't click as quickly. Reusing something that's only on one weapon, where it's poorly implemented, and making it a switchable fire mode, isn't "turning them into something they're not supposed to be." Many of these weapons don't even have much recoil to be bothered by, and we have plenty of useless mods that might earn a slot if recoil becomes unmanageable anyway.

[YUNoJump]

9 minutes ago, SteamlordD said:

They're supposed to get more fire rate. They don't. Semi-automatic weapons have a hard fire rate cap, which most paired secondaries exceed. Beyond not being able to click quickly enough, it's capped, probably to try to be fair to people who can't click as quickly. Reusing something that's only on one weapon, where it's poorly implemented, and making it a switchable fire mode, isn't "turning them into something they're not supposed to be." Many of these weapons don't even have much recoil to be bothered by, and we have plenty of useless mods that might earn a slot if recoil becomes unmanageable anyway.

Yes, dual secondaries exceed their max fire rate, that was my point. Any cap you can reach is past the recoil point I mentioned. Yes the recoil isn't the most horrible you've ever seen, but it makes a difference at range, especially with the Bolto. And putting on a recoil mod is a choice based on player preference rather than meta, if a player prefers to just fire a bit slower, or learn to adjust to the recoil quicker, in exchange for a damage mod rather than a recoil mod, that's an organic choice they make based on preference.

As for duplex, duplex is specifically a shotgun trigger, putting on pistols turns them into weird hybrid things that aren't dual pistols anymore, in the same way that giving them an automatic mode (a concept I see on these sorts of threads occasionally) would change them from semi-auto pistols to submachine gun things. Additionally, you'd have to hold the trigger all the time to save ammo, and it would be quite offputting on anything other than a double-barrelled shotgun. 

[SteamlordD]

3 hours ago, YUNoJump said:

Yes, dual secondaries exceed their max fire rate, that was my point. Any cap you can reach is past the recoil point I mentioned. Yes the recoil isn't the most horrible you've ever seen, but it makes a difference at range, especially with the Bolto. And putting on a recoil mod is a choice based on player preference rather than meta, if a player prefers to just fire a bit slower, or learn to adjust to the recoil quicker, in exchange for a damage mod rather than a recoil mod, that's an organic choice they make based on preference.

As for duplex, duplex is specifically a shotgun trigger, putting on pistols turns them into weird hybrid things that aren't dual pistols anymore, in the same way that giving them an automatic mode (a concept I see on these sorts of threads occasionally) would change them from semi-auto pistols to submachine gun things. Additionally, you'd have to hold the trigger all the time to save ammo, and it would be quite offputting on anything other than a double-barrelled shotgun. 

I’ll never understand why people always come to this idea that it’s SUPER WEIRD to shoot one gun, then the other, in quick succession. Has nobody playing warframe touched Payday before?

[(PSN)Black-Cat-Jinx]

I can tell you that if you use an autofire controller most of the dual weapons fire ridiculously fast.

[YUNoJump]

1 hour ago, SteamlordD said:

I’ll never understand why people always come to this idea that it’s SUPER WEIRD to shoot one gun, then the other, in quick succession. Has nobody playing warframe touched Payday before?

That's not what I'm saying, if I want to shoot one gun then the other then i can just click twice. A duplex trigger is a real life mechanic where you pull the trigger once and it fires two shots, and it's definitively not how semi-auto weapons work. The issue with using it is that Warframe trigger systems are based on how the guns would physically be fired, not mechanics.

[SteamlordD]

9 hours ago, YUNoJump said:

That's not what I'm saying, if I want to shoot one gun then the other then i can just click twice. A duplex trigger is a real life mechanic where you pull the trigger once and it fires two shots, and it's definitively not how semi-auto weapons work. The issue with using it is that Warframe trigger systems are based on how the guns would physically be fired, not mechanics.

No, it isn't. Game mechanics and real life mechanisms don't need to line up. We have dogs that hatch from eggs and space laser guns made of meat. Pulling the right trigger on click and the left trigger on release wouldn't be difficult to do, it would allow higher fire rate when you want it while not hindering aim when you want precision, and it could be an alternate firing mode anyway. If we're going to talk about an actual duplex trigger, firing on release doesn't make any sense anyway, but physical mehcanics aren't a reason not to do something in a video game about space ninja pirate knights who fight collectivism and capitalism and communism by slaughtering infinitely regenerating hordes of soldiers so loyal they face certain death with no fear. Realism is null.

[DarcnyssWolfe]

Semi-autos are hard capped at 10 rate of fire, quite a few  dual semi's hit that mark with just lethal torrent. Wouldn't mind duplex but with that hard cap its still be disapointing. Wish they'd remove the cap and make duals auto fire (i mean all the thrown secondaries are  even full auto ffs, noodle arm faster than trigger finger 0.o). Still can be easily click fired for semiauto yet when you need your space ninja to mag dump that akbolto at 30+ rof, ya just need to click and hold, everyone wins.

[Snowbluff]

Maybe not duplex, but a 2 round burst modes?