Slide Attack/Maiming Strike/Whip and Polearm range -- an absurd mixture of overpoweredness

[AcidicGhost]

1 hour ago, Vindicus8235 said:

You would need to be in a position of power over that which you are attempting to impose your will upon in order to impose your will upon it.  My statement stands, and your lack of understanding stands.

You don't need to be in power to try and impose something. Which is the phrase you used. 

One does not need to be in power to attempt to impose a belief or action. 

Keep trying though, eventually that line will work on someone. 

[Vindicus8235]

4 minutes ago, AcidicGhost said:

You don't need to be in power to try and impose something. Which is the phrase you used. 

One does not need to be in power to attempt to impose a belief or action. 

Keep trying though, eventually that line will work on someone. 

My statement stands, and your lack of understanding stands, still.

[(PSN)LubzinNJ]

1 hour ago, Vindicus8235 said:

I can afford the maiming strike mod many times over.  Pretending that my post is because I can't use the playstyle myself is quite simply untrue.  Looking forward to the upcoming melee changes, I'm sure DE will get'er fixed.

They won't. They knew what the mod did when they made it. They knew what it's capability was. They also knew that they would limit the number available in game and in doing so make it a high value item worth a decent chunk of platinum so entice people to buy platinum to get it.

But go ahead and keep tilting at windmills Quixote I'm sure you're going to make a difference.

[AlphaTheFinalBalance]

Just gonna random dump this here, but i like my melee with my enemy nearby, a giant sword shoved right into him swinging it in circles.

That is is all <3

[Vindicus8235]

6 hours ago, (PS4)LubzinNJ said:

They won't. They knew what the mod did when they made it. They knew what it's capability was. They also knew that they would limit the number available in game and in doing so make it a high value item worth a decent chunk of platinum so entice people to buy platinum to get it.

But go ahead and keep tilting at windmills Quixote I'm sure you're going to make a difference.

Aww, someone read their first book and tried to apply some platitude to a real conversation; that's adorable!  What I spar with here is, unfortunately for you, no windmill but a very real and persistent enemy. 

By the logic of your first few lines there should never be anything overpowered in the game because somehow DE has the capacity to imagine all scenarios and all interactions before adding something to the game.  You can easily reason that this is an impossibility and sometimes things will crop up that need to be changed for the health of the game.

Edited March 27, 2018 by Vindicus8235

[Russ]

8 minutes ago, Vindicus8235 said:

Aww, someone read their first book and tried to apply some platitude to a real conversation; that's adorable!  What I spar with here is, unfortunately for you, no windmill but a very real and persistent enemy. 

By the logic of your first few lines there should never be anything overpowered in the game because somehow DE has the capacity to imagine all scenarios and all interactions before adding something to the game.  You can easily reason that this is an impossibility and sometimes things will crop up that need to be changed for the health of the game.

Then why did they create rivens that have +% crit on slide?

[Vindicus8235]

1 minute ago, Russ said:

Then why did they create rivens that have +% crit on slide?

Because it's not maiming strike (or said riven) alone that is the problem.  It's the combination of things that you can see in the title of the thread.

[rune_me]

6 hours ago, (PS4)LubzinNJ said:

They won't. They knew what the mod did when they made it. They knew what it's capability was. They also knew that they would limit the number available in game and in doing so make it a high value item worth a decent chunk of platinum so entice people to buy platinum to get it.

But go ahead and keep tilting at windmills Quixote I'm sure you're going to make a difference.

Lol what? By your logic DE should therefor never have made any changes to the game. No bug fixing, no tweaks, nothing.

Because “they knew what it did” when they added it.

DE already announced they will make big changes to how combos work. Since blood rush/maiming strike is a result of the current combo system, yeah, it’ll be changed. So will condition overload.

[MopUpCrewman]

37 minutes ago, Vindicus8235 said:

Aww, someone read their first book and tried to apply some platitude to a real conversation; that's adorable!  What I spar with here is, unfortunately for you, no windmill but a very real and persistent enemy.

You should reduce your pH levels and sarcasm or else you'll get a warning at this rate. This is a discussion, if you want to insult people then find some other place. Obviously, this applies to everyone. 

I do agree with you, DE has no way of knowing how exactly what they add will affect the game, but there are better ways to go about saying that. 

[Vindicus8235]

49 minutes ago, MopUpCrewman said:

You should reduce your pH levels and sarcasm or else you'll get a warning at this rate. This is a discussion, if you want to insult people then find some other place. Obviously, this applies to everyone. 

I do agree with you, DE has no way of knowing how exactly what they add will affect the game, but there are better ways to go about saying that. 

When you attempt to castigate someone for a perceived attack you should probably not start by being snarky and talking about "pH levels" in your own post if you wish to be taken seriously; as well as considering the original attack that you're now defending (being dismissive of my critique of slide attack spam as being synonymous with Don Quixote fighting windmills).  I doubt LubzinNJ needs you to rescue him from my highly abrasive fusillade of word bullets, anyway.

 

Edited March 27, 2018 by Vindicus8235

[Teloch]

47 minutes ago, MopUpCrewman said:

DE has no way of knowing how exactly what they add will affect the game

Content oversaturation, or "when you don't know which one of the 9001 previously introduced features will engage in a reaction with the new one and blow the balance to hell"

[MopUpCrewman]

47 minutes ago, Vindicus8235 said:

-snip- 

Okay, welp, I didn't do half the things you mentioned but I'll back away before I get involved further. Enjoy living in your own world, I guess? 

[(PSN)BOSS_TPH76]

On 3/13/2018 at 1:43 AM, Blade_Wolf_16 said:

 

Yes, it's another thread on the Spin-2-win spam, and there will always be more as long as it's not fixed. Why do people disregard the threads explaning the problem yet not the actual problem?

 

PS @DDixon286: Forcing others to play solo just so others can cheese in public isn't going to fix anything.

Because there is no actual problem except for the problem of some players trying to impose their own subjective ideas what constitutes proper game play on the rest of the community. On a mechanical level...nothing really needs to be fixed. Let me rephrase that: just because some people have a problem with something...doesn't mean that it is an actual problem with something. 

When you boil down these discussions and cries for nerf's in PvE games....it will invariably and always come down to: "it isn't fun for me" .
In other words...there is no real problem...it is an entirely subjective and egocentric complaint. 

Here is the solution: the people who hate to play with people who use melee combo's should start a clan, club or whatever and play together. Nobody is forced to play alone and nobody is forced to adjust their play style. 

Edited March 27, 2018 by (PS4)BOSS_TPH76

[Blade_Wolf_16]

il y a une heure, (PS4)BOSS_TPH76 a dit :

---

I already answered to that "there is no problem except you" kind of crap on previous pages. If you want my arguments, read the rest of the thread, not just the first few posts. 

[Sqecmi]

6 часов назад, Vindicus8235 сказал:

Because it's not maiming strike (or said riven) alone that is the problem.  It's the combination of things that you can see in the title of the thread.

so how this things impair your play? because without any meme strike or slide riven i can demolish everything up to lvl 100 without any effort at speed of sound using strong weapons like galatine. maiming strike makes any melee viable, so players are notlimited to just atterax, galatine, venka and hirudo

because i can justify nerfs in games like poe, because ovepowered stuff may ruin already tensioned economy and progression, but i cant do that in warframe.

 

Edited March 27, 2018 by Sqecmi

[rune_me]

1 hour ago, (PS4)BOSS_TPH76 said:

When you boil down these discussions and cries for nerf's in PvE games....it will invariably and always come down to: "it isn't fun for me" .
In other words...there is no real problem...it is an entirely subjective and egocentric complaint. 

That’s not even remotely true, though. I have tons of fun with maiming strike. And with condition overload. I still think they are OP, and that the game will be better once they get nerfed (which they will, of course).

See, I think that a well balanced PvE game is more important than me personally having fun.

So no, it will not always come down to whether it is fun for me or not.

[K2k4]

Tldr 15 pages of arguments.

I just want to put it out there that I find spin to win to be fun and satisfying.  I used to use ground slam to win and it is an upgrade.

I can't understand why anybody would dislike maiming strike.  If you don't want to spin attack just use a different build. Depending on the weapon,  a full status build or simply fast attacking with a combo counter will do comparable dps.

I did read the first and last 2 pages of the thread but I didn't see any arguments that actually made any sense.   Nobody is forcing you to use maiming strike and if you don't have it you can pick it up next time the acolytes pay us a visit (or pay plat for one). As someone who enjoys the playstyle, I don't like this thread continuously popping up.

[(PSN)BOSS_TPH76]

34 minutes ago, Blade_Wolf_16 said:

I already answered to that "there is no problem except you" kind of crap on previous pages. If you want my arguments, read the rest of the thread, not just the first few posts. 

Yeah...see...I read your other, as you so eloquently put it,  crap and it still departs from the unfounded and ill argued position that there is a problem in the first place. Everything you posted fails to do so...which makes the assumption that there is in fact a problem is in fact a "you problem"....and also illustrates that you have no in fact addressed it at all. So it needs to be repeated...again and again...apparently 

[rune_me]

3 minutes ago, (PS4)BOSS_TPH76 said:

Yeah...see...I read your other, as you so eloquently put it,  crap and it still departs from the unfounded and ill argued position that there is a problem in the first place. Everything you posted fails to do so...which makes the assumption that there is in fact a problem is in fact a "you problem"....and also illustrates that you have no in fact addressed it at all. So it needs to be repeated...again and again...apparently 

Just because you can’t see the problem, doesn’t mean it isn’t there. People are not trying to convince you that there is a problem. No one cares what you think or not, because you have no say in the development of the game. People are trying to convince DE about the problem, and will likely continue to do so.

You can of course continue to cry and  whine about that, as you have done so far, if that makes you happy. Like I said, no one else will really care.

[(PSN)BOSS_TPH76]

15 minutes ago, rune_me said:

That’s not even remotely true, though. I have tons of fun with maiming strike. And with condition overload. I still think they are OP, and that the game will be better once they get nerfed (which they will, of course).

See, I think that a well balanced PvE game is more important than me personally having fun.

So no, it will not always come down to whether it is fun for me or not.

Yeah...actually it does still come down to "whether it is fun for you" because the idea that a game needs to be properly balanced to be good and enjoyable is: 1). subjective on the statement itself and not a given reality or even true 2). subjective into what constitutes that balance and how it should be reached 3). arbitrary in the statement that mods are the issue in the first place.  

So for you an arbitrarily balanced game (because let's face it...THAT is a subjective) is more important. For me...your type of balance would ruin the game entirely and make it severely unbalanced.   

Now...of course...this game will remain an unbalanced S#&amp;&#036; show regardless of condition overload and maiming strike combo's. So the issue of game balance...both in combat and the resulting reward system and grind necessary...is not solved or advanced by nerfing a few mods and warframes. In fact...within the type of game this is balance is an illusion.   

 

[Blade_Wolf_16]

il y a 18 minutes, K2k4 a dit :

Tldr 15 pages of arguments.

I just want to put it out there that I find spin to win to be fun and satisfying.  I used to use ground slam to win and it is an upgrade.

I can't understand why anybody would dislike maiming strike.  If you don't want to spin attack just use a different build. Depending on the weapon,  a full status build or simply fast attacking with a combo counter will do comparable dps.

I did read the first and last 2 pages of the thread but I didn't see any arguments that actually made any sense.   Nobody is forcing you to use maiming strike and if you don't have it you can pick it up next time the acolytes pay us a visit (or pay plat for one). As someone who enjoys the playstyle, I don't like this thread continuously popping up.

 

il y a 5 minutes, (PS4)BOSS_TPH76 a dit :

Yeah...see...I read your other, as you so eloquently put it,  crap and it still departs from the unfounded and ill argued position that there is a problem in the first place. Everything you posted fails to do so...which makes the assumption that there is in fact a problem is in fact a "you problem"....and also illustrates that you have no in fact addressed it at all. So it needs to be repeated...again and again...apparently 

The problem is how unbalanced this Spin-2-win crap is. It forces teammates to just sit down and watch because they have nothing to do since one guy spamming spin attacks is killing everything in sight before they can even aim. 

It might be fun for you, but it's not for the rest of the squad. Just because you have fun using it doesn't mean it's ok to have such a broken combo in the game. You personal fun is worth just as much as my personal fun, but I'm talking about collectivity. Teammates. 3 out of 4 players. 

il y a 3 minutes, (PS4)BOSS_TPH76 a dit :

Yeah...actually it does still come down to "whether it is fun for you" because the idea that a game needs to be properly balanced to be good and enjoyable is: 1). subjective on the statement itself and not a given reality or even true 2). subjective into what constitutes that balance and how it should be reached 3). arbitrary in the statement that mods are the issue in the first place.  

So for you an arbitrarily balanced game (because let's face it...THAT is a subjective) is more important. For me...your type of balance would ruin the game entirely and make it severely unbalanced.   

Now...of course...this game will remain an unbalanced S#&amp;&#036; show regardless of condition overload and maiming strike combo's. So the issue of game balance...both in combat and the resulting reward system and grind necessary...is not solved or advanced by nerfing a few mods and warframes. In fact...within the type of game this is balance is an illusion.   

And as I said before in the first few pages, balance is an eternal goal. Yes, it cannot be perfect, but it doesn't mean that it's useless to improve the game. 

Look at the Amprex. It was buffed and nerfed at the same time, but the result was an overall buff. The nerf was necessary to balance the buffs, otherwise it would have been broken. 

Or the Teralyst, which was lvl 20 and got boosted to lvl 50. De nerfed it's damage potential and hp so it would stay close to it's original difficulty level. The goal of this was to give more xp for killing it.

Nerfs are just as important than buffs. Deal with it.

[rune_me]

3 minutes ago, (PS4)BOSS_TPH76 said:

Yeah...actually it does still come down to "whether it is fun for you" because the idea that a game needs to be properly balanced to be good and enjoyable is: 1). subjective on the statement itself and not a given reality or even true 2). subjective into what constitutes that balance and how it should be reached 3). arbitrary in the statement that mods are the issue in the first place.  

So for you an arbitrarily balanced game (because let's face it...THAT is a subjective) is more important. For me...your type of balance would ruin the game entirely and make it severely unbalanced.   

Now...of course...this game will remain an unbalanced S#&amp;&#036; show regardless of condition overload and maiming strike combo's. So the issue of game balance...both in combat and the resulting reward system and grind necessary...is not solved or advanced by nerfing a few mods and warframes. In fact...within the type of game this is balance is an illusion.   

 

My type if balance. Your type of balance. Blah blah blah. The only type of balance that matters is DE’s.

The nerfs and buffs we see all the tine makes it obvious that DE does want balance, and does believe that balance is possible ( why would they otherwise bother)

And lets face it, there’s no way DE can change the current combo system as announced, without affecting condition overload and blood rush. Of course this will happen. Pretending MS and CO will remain in its current state, is like all the people who thought DE would never touch Ember or Chroma. Or the people thinking Mesa will never be nerfed. It’s obviously going to happen, so you might as well start prepearing for it.

[(PSN)BOSS_TPH76]

1 minute ago, rune_me said:

Just because you can’t see the problem, doesn’t mean it isn’t there. People are not trying to convince you that there is a problem. No one cares what you think or not, because you have no say in the development of the game. People are trying to convince DE about the problem, and will likely continue to do so.

You can of course continue to cry and  whine about that, as you have done so far, if that makes you happy. Like I said, no one else will really care.

No...pretty damned sure that the whining and crying is done by a group of people who can't even begin to explain why there is a problem in the first place. That is how things actually work.

And so far...everybody...including you...on that side of the argument simply states there is an issue without actually offering any legitimate arguments that are not entirely based on their subjective experience and their subjective ideas of what constitutes a proper game or proper balance. Of course that leaves the fact that their proposed solution for their imaginary problem in the first place is entirely one sided, narrow minded and lacking contextual intelligence...but that is a different issue. 

Take for example your balance argument in the previous post...you claim that MS and CO are overpowered. This is an entirely subjective interpretation to begin with. Overpowered in what context? In comparison to what? The enemy levels and damage output? The grind? The underwhelming performance of most weapons in this game? How does it actually create balance? What constitutes this vague and undefined notion of "balance" in the context of this game. Is that notion even reached to begin with by your proposed solution. 

See...the entire problem is that 1) YOU find that something trivializes the game. 2) YOU find that an incredibly narrow and subjective definition of balance improves the game 3). YOU find that other players should be prohibited or prevented from using something. 3). YOU go to the forums and cry and whine about it. 

 



  



 

[Azamagon]

Just gonna quote myself from another thread:

 

On 2018-03-23 at 2:08 PM, Azamagon said:

-snip-

Let's try another approach:

* Maiming Strike (and similar Rivens) now give a flat critboost to all manuever-based melee attacks (i.e. slide melee, air melee, wall melee, air slam melee).
* Air melee now deals a lot more damage (more than slide attack) and the cooldown it adds to your melee attacks is removed upon landing (this current cooldown is hideous AND NEEDS TO GO!)
* Wall melee now deals a lot more damage (more than slide attack), propels the Warframe a LOT further (making it a flashy and useful gapcloser move) and has some autoaiming features, along with always knocking down your struck target(s).
* Slideattack damage could, potentially but not necessarily, be nerfed quite a bit in damage (at max, cut in half). However, all melee classes' slide attack now attack with more AoE (for example; Fists could do a wide backhandstrike with the free hand before the uppercut etc).

What this does is to "nerf" maiming strike indirectly by instead allowing more diversity! You can still spam slideattacks for easy AoE if you want, but doing other moves would be more rewarding in the right occasions (Wall melee is better for closing distant gaps, while air melee is a much stronger move against singular targets).

*  (Primed) Reach -> Each rank increases the weapons reach by 5% and 0.2 meters. Basic Reach now also has 2 additional ranks. This equals: Reach = 30% and 1.2 meters, while Primed Reach = +55% and 2.2 meters. Note; Flat rangebonus is added LAST.
RESULT: Less extreme of a bonus for the far-reaching weapons (but still very nice), more useable for shortrange weapons, due to also giving a flat range bonus.
For example
Atterax slideattack range with current Primed Reach = 12,9 meters. With my suggested version = 9,74 meters (noticeable nerf)
Dex Dakra attack range with current Primed Reach = 5,1 meters. With my suggested version = 5,18 meters (basicly untouched)
Furax Wraith attack range with current Primed Reach = 3,5 meters. With my suggested version = 4,24 meters (noticeable buff)

 

That looks better, no? :)

 

To me, the problem with Maiming Strike isn't really its power. No, the problem is that it promotes repeating the exact same melee strike over and over again. It promotes anti-variety.

To those of you who are newer to this game; If you didn't know, this is one of the main reasons DE rehauled Melee into their current "Melee 2.0", to move away from just spamming charge-attacks over and over. We had mods dedicated to chargeattacks in the past. Now we have mods dedicated to slideattacks. Same issue, just a different attack.

It's one thing to make a mistake. Everyone makes mistakes. But learn from your mistakes, don't repeat the same issue in different forms (see also, as a similar example; No longer tieing power to cosmetics, yet the Arcanes introduced afterwards repeated that issue again for the longest time).

 

Edited March 27, 2018 by Azamagon

[rune_me]

2 minutes ago, (PS4)BOSS_TPH76 said:

No...pretty damned sure that the whining and crying is done by a group of people who can't even begin to explain why there is a problem in the first place. That is how things actually work

You’d be wrong, though. We can all agree that you are the one whining: “oh no how dare they say mean things about maiming strike wah wah wah!” 

5 minutes ago, (PS4)BOSS_TPH76 said:

And so far...everybody...including you...on that side of the argument simply states there is an issue without actually offering any legitimate arguments that are not entirely based on their subjective experience and their subjective ideas of what constitutes a proper game or proper balance. Of course that leaves the fact that their proposed solution for their imaginary problem in the first place is entirely one sided, narrow minded and lacking contextual intelligence...but that is a different issue. 

The issue has been explained, the entirely objective problem has been illustrated many times over. Just because you (as one of maybe 2 or 3 people) don’t understand it, doesn’t mean it hasn’t been done.

If someone lacks the basic intelligence to understand that 2+2=4 then its pointless for me to keep telling it.