Zephyr tweaks and rework DON’T CHANGE TURBULENCE

[(PSN)Omega_Zero_]

I m a fan of Zephyr but I’ve found myself using her less and less lately. Mostly because she doesn’t fit any roles. Her annoying passive and lackluster ability’s don’t make her fun to play. Here are some ideas on changes.

Passive: Replace jump and bullet-jump with unlimited tailwind with distance that decays 20% and recharge 20% every 2 seconds. Combine Dive-bomb and slam attack.

Reason The current passive is really frustrating especially for a game that everyone moves as fast and you’re gently hovering down. I find myself air sliding a lot. Also movement 2.0

Explanation: Unlimited tailwind/bullet-jumps with a 20% decay. in essence you can tailwind/bullet-jump 5 times with decreasing distance traveled so you don’t stay in the hair forever and/or have it recharge 20% every 2 seconds regardless of being in the air or ground (Titania's may be nimble in the air but zephyr would be faster). Dive-bomb and slam attack combined just makes sense, it’s the same thing so combine them. (Also don’t want to throw away the Dive-bomb animation)

Tailwind/Dive-bomb: change it with the passive. Increase the gravity resistance and aim glide freeze time. (or just be able to float)

Reasons Give the players the option to choose when to be able to float or be floaty.

Explanation have it as a toggle

Air Burst: feels like a copout. Can’t think of anything good to fix this, Maybe add a Temporary disarm? Some help anyone.

Reasons weak, band synergy. No real reason to use it.

Turbulence: perfect don’t change a thing.

Tornado: Wider tornados that dont pick up enemies but slows them down, disarms them while they are inside the tornado and picks up projectiles to damage enemies.  

Reasons Tornado is to chaotic and unreliable.

Explanation Like a mix between Ember’s Fires blast and Mag’s magnetize.  

Edited March 18, 2018 by (PS4)Omega_Zero_

[Caelward]

The problem with the passive is that it tends to strongly divide opinion. Some players don't like it. Some players swear by it.

I would enjoy having her slam attack become a divebomb, but that seems too fun to actually happen. Regardless of that, DE seems absolutely unwilling to do anything with divebomb at all. The only change it has received it putting it somewhere exceptionally annoying to use.

As for Tailwind itself... this one is just too painful to talk about now.

Air Burst just needs to fly faster. It would also really help if it pulled rather than scattered ragdolls.

Would you believe Tornado has actually been improved in terms of reliability and damage management? But it will always be chaotic and unreliable at this point. DE already did what they consider their 'major rework'.

Edited March 18, 2018 by Caelward

[Birdframe_Prime]

Actually, I'll not hear a bad word about Airburst, except to say that it's really slow moving. The CC cast is good, it doesn't overly ragdoll the enemy (which was always going to be a risk) but does give Zephyr an option that she desperately needed in her kit from the start: a projectile form of CC that gives her breathing room from enemies that are too close, or while she recasts Turbulence, or needs to do pretty much anything else.

One of the biggest problems that I encountered over the last four years of playing Zephyr is that while she has absolutely stellar ranged defense, there are multiple situations in the game that are specifically designed (it seems) to counter that, or make it not useful. Whether that's activating life support, reviving a team member, or just being in a confined space and needing to deal with charger units.

Airburst is not a gimmick. It's just... the least of the options Zephyr could have been given in order to counter this problem of hers.

Are there better CC options? Sure, but DE aren't going to change it out for something else, they literally just put it in.

[(PSN)Omega_Zero_]

11 hours ago, Caelward said:

The problem with the passive is that it tends to strongly divide opinion. Some players don't like it. Some players swear by it.

I would enjoy having her slam attack become a divebomb, but that seems too fun to actually happen. Regardless of that, DE seems absolutely unwilling to do anything with divebomb at all. The only change it has received it putting it somewhere exceptionally annoying to use.

As for Tailwind itself... this one is just too painful to talk about now.

Air Burst just needs to fly faster. It would also really help if it pulled rather than scattered ragdolls.

Would you believe Tornado has actually been improved in terms of reliability and damage management? But it will always be chaotic and unreliable at this point. DE already did what they consider their 'major rework'.

The problem with the passive is that it tends to strongly divide opinion. Some players don't like it. Some players swear by it.

thats why i want the option to turn it off and on at will 

As for Tailwind itself... this one is just too painful to talk about now

tailwind is like Excalibur super jump. it needs to to go 

Air Burst just needs to fly faster. It would also really help if it pulled rather than scattered ragdolls.

so air burst should be like Mag's pull?

Would you believe Tornado has actually been improved in terms of reliability and damage management? But it will always be chaotic and unreliable at this point. DE already did what they consider their 'major rework'.

 yea Ive been playing warframe on the ps4 around the time valkyr came out 

[Birdframe_Prime]

1 hour ago, (PS4)Omega_Zero_ said:

so air burst should be like Mag's pull?

No, no, what he's talking about is where we had an augment for Dive Bomb before, it used to switch the outwards radial knock-down into an inwards radial knock down, everything still gets knocked down in the same way, but instead of outwards, it's towards the middle of the cast. Mag's Pull is mono-direction, everything gets pulled towards you from one side, this one would just make sure that instead of knocking enemies out of an area, it knocks them into that area.

There's some awesome synergy possibilities there, because you can knock enemies into a Tornado funnel, or Dive Bomb them, or just blow them up with something explosive ^^

Personally I don't think it needs it, but that's me.

[Arkenai7]

Please do change turbulence.

Specifically, let us have the old cast time back.

[Caelward]

4 hours ago, (PS4)Omega_Zero_ said:

As for Tailwind itself... this one is just too painful to talk about now

 

tailwind is like Excalibur super jump. it needs to to go

No. It doesn't.

[(PSN)Cynicaid]

1 hour ago, Arkenai7 said:

Please do change turbulence.

Specifically, let us have the old cast time back.

Or, better yet, let us recast it. She's always had a notable delay between it expiring and being able to use it again. The new animation made that delay worse.

[Birdframe_Prime]

13 hours ago, (PS4)Cynicaid said:

Or, better yet, let us recast it. She's always had a notable delay between it expiring and being able to use it again. The new animation made that delay worse.

Agreed, but DE would say that the new Airburst gives her the 'breathing room' necessary to re-cast after the duration has ended... I mean, that's what I use it for, but it's not actually a fix, right?

[(PSN)Omega_Zero_]

19 hours ago, Caelward said:

No. It doesn't.

im not trying to pick a fight but please explain to me how so. I believe Tailwind should be incorporated in the general movement of Zephyr without having to use energy or using 1 of the 4 abilities. i hope i was clear during my first post on how i would like it to be her passive.

Edited March 19, 2018 by (PS4)Omega_Zero_

[(PSN)Omega_Zero_]

22 hours ago, Thaylien said:

No, no, what he's talking about is where we had an augment for Dive Bomb before, it used to switch the outwards radial knock-down into an inwards radial knock down, everything still gets knocked down in the same way, but instead of outwards, it's towards the middle of the cast. Mag's Pull is mono-direction, everything gets pulled towards you from one side, this one would just make sure that instead of knocking enemies out of an area, it knocks them into that area.

There's some awesome synergy possibilities there, because you can knock enemies into a Tornado funnel, or Dive Bomb them, or just blow them up with something explosive ^^

Personally I don't think it needs it, but that's me.

if im not mistaken air burst goes in a straight line. and mag's pull is a cone in front of her. thats why i said it was like mag's pull. 

as for the Divebomb Vortex it was a bad version of Valkyr Prolonged Paralysis in my opinion. 

[Birdframe_Prime]

7 minutes ago, (PS4)Omega_Zero_ said:

im not trying to pick a fight but please explain to me how so. I believe Tailwind should be incorporated in the general movement of Zephyr without having to use energy or using 1 of the 4 abilities. i hope i was clear during my first post on how i would like it to be her passive.

Caelward and I have been in a lot of the debates, sometimes on opposite sides, depending on the topic.

As it stands, I think he'll agree with me when I say that the real discussion you need to be thinking on is 'how would this be better?'

A Tailwind Cast, as opposed to a Tailwind Movement, can be improved, can be buffed, made better. Especially important is that it can be modded. If you put it on the movement it becomes something fixed, unchangeable, all you'd be able to do is adjust for how much movement you got out of it at base, where DE introduce it, listen to feedback, and then balance it to more or less movement either way... and that's it, leave it. Even if you got better base movement for Zephyr, would it really be better than what Tailwind could be?

Tailwind can be much better than it is now, but if you relegate it to a movement cast it won't do that. You're basically doing to it what's already been done to Dive Bomb; hiding the problems, ignoring them, in favour of getting a new function.

You see, the two-edged sword of being here on the forums so long, discussing Zephyr, is that we've been through so many debates that we tend to know the conclusion to most lines of thought that newer people come in and begin for themselves. Where it gets blunt and frustrating is that some of those lines of thought have been gone over so many times, and argued so hard, that bringing up that same line of thought again mentally prepares some of us for the same argument all over again. Very defensive and likely to get short with people.

So that's the thing, you're kind of... not bringing up a lot of new ideas, they've pretty much all been thought of and discussed. I really don't mean to sound condescending about this, please believe me on that, it's just an old, old topic now ^^

2 minutes ago, (PS4)Omega_Zero_ said:

as for the Divebomb Vortex it was a bad version of Valkyr Prolonged Paralysis in my opinion. 

Hey, I'm not saying it was the best CC around, just that it was better than the base outward knock down. Dive Bomb's main problems are its poor range and its in-effective knock down, which only affects enemies that aren't performing 'weighted' animations, like ground slams, activating a console, throwing something, summoning companions or similar.

The Dive Bomb Vortex mod actually made that a little more reliable because the inwards ragdoll affected enemies from the cast of the ability, rather than the impact, meaning that there was less chance of an enemy cancelling out of it by using an animation before you hit the ground.

3 minutes ago, (PS4)Omega_Zero_ said:

if im not mistaken air burst goes in a straight line. and mag's pull is a cone in front of her. thats why i said it was like mag's pull. 

Air burst goes in a straight line, then impacts an area of effect, radially knocking down enemies, it's not just for smacking them in the face. If modded for range it can actually CC a very large area. The ragdoll it produces isn't actually all that big, basically little more than a knockdown with some air-time ^^ This makes it very effective at targeting groups from above, her speciality.

Mag's pull brings everything straight towards you in a massive ragdoll that's very unpredictable in some cases, often throwing enemies behind you and scattering them, which is great CC for staying alive, but poor CC for killing things quickly.

In both cases, the better option for killing enemies quickly would be if the ragdoll effect left enemies grouped up a bit more. Mag would also benefit from this particular treatment, in my opinion, because in both cases your enemies are not only knocked down (so not shooting at you) they're also all where you can hit them with either other abilities or weapons.

...

I feel I should finish on a bit of a positive note.

I did, in fact, think that Tailwind should be on her movement before, just like you... well, a slightly different way than you ^^

Here, take a read of this old thread, it's been archived, so you wouldn't find it without knowing it was there:

You may find some ideas you like, some you don't, but it's just to illustrate. Have fun!

[(PSN)Omega_Zero_]

4 hours ago, Thaylien said:

As it stands, I think he'll agree with me when I say that the real discussion you need to be thinking on is 'how would this be better?'

Better? More movement and maneuverability. Less energy consumption. Better positioning to use weapons and ability’s and it would be more fun.

4 hours ago, Thaylien said:

A Tailwind Cast, as opposed to a Tailwind Movement, can be improved, can be buffed, made better. Especially important is that it can be modded. If you put it on the movement it becomes something fixed, unchangeable, all you'd be able to do is adjust for how much movement you got out of it at base, where DE introduce it, listen to feedback, and then balance it to more or less movement either way... and that's it, leave it. Even if you got better base movement for Zephyr, would it really be better than what Tailwind could be?

I don't mean to be rude but this seems a little close minded, that if it’s put into Zephyr move set it can’t be buffed or improved and it becomes something fixed and unchangeable anything is possible with a little ingenuity. Tailwind is a primarily a movement ability is just like super jump for excal. There are better movement options in the game that don’t cost energy and an ability slot. Besides bullet jump/ Tailwind with mods like lightning dash or ice spring just sounds cool. Keep an open mind my friend.  

4 hours ago, Thaylien said:

Tailwind can be much better than it is now, but if you relegate it to a movement cast it won't do that. You're basically doing to it what's already been done to Dive Bomb; hiding the problems, ignoring them, in favour of getting a new function.

Please tell me how tailwind can get better? As for Dive bomb I think its grate that they combined it with Tailwind. It didn’t hide the problem it combined the best part of 2 abilities and gave us a new one. Though the ability is misplaced in my opinion. Also wish it had the dive-bomb vortex integrated in it.

4 hours ago, Thaylien said:

You see, the two-edged sword of being here on the forums so long, discussing Zephyr, is that we've been through so many debates that we tend to know the conclusion to most lines of thought that newer people come in and begin for themselves. Where it gets blunt and frustrating is that some of those lines of thought have been gone over so many times, and argued so hard, that bringing up that same line of thought again mentally prepares some of us for the same argument all over again. Very defensive and likely to get short with people.

I agree with that last sentence that’s why I really don’t post. Just read the rants of peopled demanding that their idea is valid irritates me.  

4 hours ago, Thaylien said:

So that's the thing, you're kind of... not bringing up a lot of new ideas, they've pretty much all been thought of and discussed. I really don't mean to sound condescending about this, please believe me on that, it's just an old, old topic now ^^

They may have been thought out and discussed but without execution we don’t know if they would be good or not just theories. 

4 hours ago, Thaylien said:

I really don't mean to sound condescending about this, please believe me on that, it's just an old, old topic now ^^

you don't sound condescending also squeaky wheel gets the grease

 

4 hours ago, Thaylien said:

I feel I should finish on a bit of a positive note.

I did, in fact, think that Tailwind should be on her movement before, just like you... well, a slightly different way than you ^^

Here, take a read of this old thread, it's been archived, so you wouldn't find it without knowing it was there:

You may find some ideas you like, some you don't, but it's just to illustrate. Have fun!

Reading it now like you dervish ability and would like it better than Airburst ability we have now.

As for the passive; the only difference I see is that I want to get rid of the anti-gravity part and unlimited use with a regenerating decaying factor (want it to decay so you not stay in the air forever and get shorter thrusts for better maneuverability with the option of getting that back with clever game play) but I wouldn't mind this passive still want dived bomb to be integrated with the slam attack. I just want more control and reliability in the ability’s and passive.

Still reading it will let you know my thought on that note keep an open mind.

Edited March 20, 2018 by (PS4)Omega_Zero_

[Caelward]

A good thing to remember is the general effectiveness of most #1 abilities.

Namely, extremely limited. Most of them are single target attacks or limited range aoe attacks. They are often ignored entirely during serious play if not modded specifically for use.

Tailwind is currently a #1 ability with an extremely powerful primary movement function, a slight damage function if you pass by enemies and a conditional attack built into it. There have been suggestions about an endless skyjump variant, the ability to float just above the ground like a hovercraft. Or the idea of simply holding the ability for sustained jet-flight. The best discussions were about altering tailwind in such a way that if you impacted terrain Zephyr would immediately resume normal movement. If you hit a wall direct on you'd probably wall latch. If you hit a wall at an angle you'd begin wall jumping. If you hit the ground she'd resume running. No. Nose. Grinding. All of those options would instantly return control to the player rather than trap players in a ridiculous momentum based glitch. All of these changes would have been small but transformative.

Instead we got the kneejerk suggestion that after a couple years of debate many of us realized would be one of the laziest and most limiting changes. All the problems that new players have raised we saw coming.

While I am unhappy with the stop and charge and the static hover, tailwind as it is offers a huge range of options for residing in an ability slot that usually has a very tight power budget.

I was in fact happier when tailwind had an instant power launch in it that I could use to rain down explosions or follow up with a dive-bomb. The launch was extremely consistent which is highly valuable in a movement based ability. I knew exactly where it was going to put me and I didn't have to look around to get there. I was quite happy with tailwind. What I was very unhappy with previously was the neglected dive-bomb and the counter-productive aspects of tornado. I always wanted them to give divebomb some love. Instead they stuffed it in the closet.

Edited March 20, 2018 by Caelward

[(PSN)Omega_Zero_]

15 hours ago, Caelward said:

A good thing to remember is the general effectiveness of most #1 abilities.

Namely, extremely limited. Most of them are single target attacks or limited range aoe attacks. They are often ignored entirely during serious play if not modded specifically for use.

 

i do agreer that most 1 abilities are limited, but not ignored example Atlas Landslide i use and abuse that ability like free ice cream on a hot day. 

 

15 hours ago, Caelward said:

Tailwind is currently a #1 ability with an extremely powerful primary movement function, a slight damage function if you pass by enemies and a conditional attack built into it. There have been suggestions about an endless skyjump variant, the ability to float just above the ground like a hovercraft. Or the idea of simply holding the ability for sustained jet-flight. 

i wouldn't say Tailwind is an extremely powerful movement function. its mediocre at best. the damage you do with it is so Subpar, all the elemental bullet jump mods vastly overshadow it. i do like the endless sky-jump and hovering prospects (hence why i started this topic and my passives and 1 ability idea).

18 hours ago, Caelward said:

The best discussions were about altering tailwind in such a way that if you impacted terrain Zephyr would immediately resume normal movement. If you hit a wall direct on you'd probably wall latch. If you hit a wall at an angle you'd begin wall jumping. If you hit the ground she'd resume running. 

this should be applier to the regular movement system for all frames now. the movement system has improved greatly over the years ( i still remember no dublejump  and no bullet jump or aim gliding)

 

18 hours ago, Caelward said:

Instead we got the kneejerk suggestion that after a couple years of debate many of us realized would be one of the laziest and most limiting changes. All the problems that new players have raised we saw coming.

not a new player, been playing since 2013. played Zephyr when she first came out it was a good ability then but the game has changed drastically since those times the ability not so much. like super jump it needs to be put out to pasture

 

18 hours ago, Caelward said:

While I am unhappy with the stop and charge and the static hover, tailwind as it is offers a huge range of options for residing in an ability slot that usually has a very tight power budget.

the stop and static hover is a step in the right direction i feel that they could do more with something else.

 

19 hours ago, Caelward said:

I was in fact happier when tailwind had an instant power launch in it that I could use to rain down explosions or follow up with a dive-bomb. The launch was extremely consistent which is highly valuable in a movement based ability. I knew exactly where it was going to put me and I didn't have to look around to get there. I was quite happy with tailwind. What I was very unhappy with previously was the neglected dive-bomb and the counter-productive aspects of tornado. I always wanted them to give divebomb some love. Instead they stuffed it in the closet.

never relay been a fan of tailwind (obviously after all i have said) but i was of dive bomb (always combined it with heavy impact)

 

To all of this i ask how much do you use Tailwind honestly. i rarely ever touch in unless im on the plains and even then i use the arching more. on regular missions either the ceiling is too low or my tailwind goes to far and/or drops to short from the enemy. moding for it to be just right meses up my Turbulence balance. im not saying tailwind was never good what im saying is that its dated and needs to go.

[Caelward]

9 minutes ago, (PS4)Omega_Zero_ said:

i do agreer that most 1 abilities are limited, but not ignored example Atlas Landslide i use and abuse that ability like free ice cream on a hot day. 

 

i wouldn't say Tailwind is an extremely powerful movement function. its mediocre at best. the damage you do with it is so Subpar, all the elemental bullet jump mods vastly overshadow it. i do like the endless sky-jump and hovering prospects (hence why i started this topic and my passives and 1 ability idea).

this should be applier to the regular movement system for all frames now. the movement system has improved greatly over the years ( i still remember no dublejump  and no bullet jump or aim gliding)

 

not a new player, been playing since 2013. played Zephyr when she first came out it was a good ability then but the game has changed drastically since those times the ability not so much. like super jump it needs to be put out to pasture

 

the stop and static hover is a step in the right direction i feel that they could do more with something else.

 

never relay been a fan of tailwind (obviously after all i have said) but i was of dive bomb (always combined it with heavy impact)

 

To all of this i ask how much do you use Tailwind honestly. i rarely ever touch in unless im on the plains and even then i use the arching more. on regular missions either the ceiling is too low or my tailwind goes to far and/or drops to short from the enemy. moding for it to be just right meses up my Turbulence balance. im not saying tailwind was never good what im saying is that its dated and needs to go.

Our opinions are in direct opposition over most of your points.

I've always found Tailwind to be useful even until right before the update. A super jump by itself is certainly underwhelming, But tailwind was a launch and then a repeatable air dash. And the tailwind launch was extremely predictable. I didn't have to look up or stop and crouch for a high jump. I could simply tap the button and I'd instantly be in the air. With a bit of practice this really improved my ability to track targets during combat since I didn't have to mess with my vision nearly as the usual jumping controls.

There are other things they could of done to make Tailwind better, but the static hover and the dumb charge up changed her moveset by taking away portions of it that I DID like. And she already stuck in the air for much longer periods of time due to her aim-glide. They added a hover that I never needed. If they wanted her to stay in the air longer, why not just have a 'hold to fly' option in it. Or there was the huge conversation we had about letting her hover just above the ground for fast movement. And then we gave up on suggesting new ideas because it was insinuated that DE wouldn't be doing full ability replacements after the big Limbo rework, then they gave Zephyr a whole new ability. Fantastic.

They took dive-bomb which had so much potential, but never actually served any real use and stuck it where the sun rarely shines. Air burst is nice, but It really shouldn't move slower than Zephyr does.

But just because you've never been a fan of tailwind, doesn't mean that it needed to go away. You asked how much I seriously used it? I seriously used it all the damn time.

If your opinion is valid, then so is mine. That's how opinions work.

[CoreXCZ]

Zephyr needs rework and that will hit even Turbulence. As much as I like that ability, it annoys me somehow how immortal Zephyr is against non-hitscan weapons.

Anyway...

[(PSN)Omega_Zero_]

18 hours ago, Caelward said:

Our opinions are in direct opposition over most of your points.

yes i agree (our opinions or your opinion?)

 

18 hours ago, Caelward said:

I've always found Tailwind to be useful even until right before the update. A super jump by itself is certainly underwhelming, But tailwind was a launch and then a repeatable air dash. And the tailwind launch was extremely predictable. I didn't have to look up or stop and crouch for a high jump. I could simply tap the button and I'd instantly be in the air. With a bit of practice this really improved my ability to track targets during combat since I didn't have to mess with my vision nearly as the usual jumping controls.

again opposite, i use tailwind slightly more now (1-2 time per run instead of completely forgetting about it especial after movement 2.0)

 

18 hours ago, Caelward said:

If they wanted her to stay in the air longer, why not just have a 'hold to fly' option in it. Or there was the huge conversation we had about letting her hover just above the ground for fast movement. And then we gave up on suggesting new ideas because it was insinuated that DE wouldn't be doing full ability replacements after the big Limbo rework, then they gave Zephyr a whole new ability. Fantastic.

never say die. DE has said the wouldn't touch a lot of things and have (thats one of the reasons why they stoped saying never)

 

18 hours ago, Caelward said:

They took dive-bomb which had so much potential, but never actually served any real use and stuck it where the sun rarely shines. Air burst is nice, but It really shouldn't move slower than Zephyr does.

completely agree with the dive bomb thing (stuck it in tailwind where the sun rarely shines if at all), and air-burst feels more like a 1 ability anyways. i liked  Thaylien Dervish ability as a replacement for it.

 

18 hours ago, Caelward said:

But just because you've never been a fan of tailwind, doesn't mean that it needed to go away. You asked how much I seriously used it? I seriously used it all the damn time

 I never said i have never been a fan of it i original liked it back before movement 2.0 what im saying is that with the now movement system (bullet jump, aim glide, air slide, upgraded wall run) it is not what it was. you have to agree with that. (i would like to play with you some-time to see how much you actually use tailwind).

 

19 hours ago, Caelward said:

If your opinion is valid, then so is mine. That's how opinions work.

all opinions are valid thats why they are opinions. Facts are indisputable because they are facts. i don't want to get rid of it per-sa i want to place it some ware else (in her passive).  fact is that Tailwind is not what is used to be because of movement 2.0 and that it is lacking. we can both agree with that.

[(PSN)Omega_Zero_]

21 hours ago, CoreXCZ said:

Zephyr needs rework and that will hit even Turbulence. As much as I like that ability, it annoys me somehow how immortal Zephyr is against non-hitscan weapons.

what do you think of Mesa's Shater sheild or of Wukong' Defy?

 

you forgot the best part