PoE is in Serious Need of Attention & Analysis Before Any Other Open Worlds, Including Venus, Are Inserted Into Warframe With Glaring Flaws (Idea Tennis)

[(PSN)VagueWisdom]

On 4/11/2018 at 12:12 PM, CortiWins said:

I see fishing and mining as more of a timewaste that exists because open worlds are supposed to have that and what would an open world be good for if not to include wasted time by walking from A to B and collect stuff in a timewasting way.

On 4/11/2018 at 2:29 PM, Ham_Grenabe said:

You know, that's an interesting point - we're all used to the things an open world "should have" that we tend to ask how to make those things better, rather than ask whether they should be there at all. 

I shouldn't ask "why am I mining this rock instead of stealing shipments of it from the Grineer" but "why do I even need to take rocks from the ground here?"

On 4/11/2018 at 3:54 PM, BlackCoMerc said:

That pretty much mirrors how I feel about it.

Why add PVP at all? Because every shooter has to have it, right? Right? 

I mean, why copy Rocket League? Because it was popular at the time.

Why have mining and fishing in an action game? Because...Open World. They ALL have it. So we have to do it, too. 

Honestly, this was valuable time that could have been - and needed to be - spent on the core game. 

I mean, we got fishing. In an open world. Where we also got barely functional flight, enemies with unlimited range and vision, terrible, low effort filler "Bounty" missions...in light of how bad PoE ended up being, how in the world would this time not have been better spent on things to do in the open plains with the CORE game play? Every time I think about PoE, I just log into Destiny 2 and do a patrol or two instead. For all its missteps - some of which Bungie admitted and fixed already - it does open world content far, far better than Warframe. 

On 4/11/2018 at 3:54 PM, BlackCoMerc said:

Spot on.

Yes, I think most people can agree on this. However, the bridge has been crossed & DE doesn't seem to want to step back. Now we have to make do & think of ways to make the suck & grind less sucky & grindy. We now have the burden of worrying about the open world side along with the main game, & whether they can be integrated & married successfully.

Though, I must remind everyone here. The best games I, & probably we, have ever played or ever will, have diversity of gameplay, especially when that diversity isn't forced onto players.

The issue is that PoE is forced. Sure, maybe you can survive to level 160 content without arcanes, operators, amps, & zaws, but if you want to push beyond that (because you're a hardcore gamer), go to the "Pains of Grindalong" & earn them as your brain rots from boredom (which can happen literally).

Anyway I don't mean to defend PoE, but as I said, DE appears to want open world & everyone believes they intend to double down on the idea with Venus. Our energy at this juncture would be better spent thinking of ways to better implement open world as opposed to thinking "this shouldn't exist & it's a complete disaster". We should instead think "how can we make this >not< or >less of< a disaster". Yet again, that's not to say we should forget the main game, but we do have an extra game aspect to tend to.

Edited April 24, 2018 by (PS4)VagueWisdom

[BlackCoMerc]

On 4/11/2018 at 6:13 PM, (PS4)VagueWisdom said:

 

 

 

Yes, I think most people can agree on this. However, the bridge has been crossed & DE doesn't seem to want to step back. Now we have to make do & think of ways to make the suck & grind less sucky & grindy. We now have the burden of worrying about the open world side along with the main game, & whether they can be integrated & married successfully.

Though, I must remind everyone here. The best games I, & probably we, have ever played or ever will, have diversity of gameplay, especially when that diversity isn't forced onto players.

The issue is that PoE is forced. Sure, maybe you can survive to level 160 content without arcanes, operators, amps, & zaws, but if you want to push beyond that (because you're a hardcore gamer), go to the "Pains of Grindalong" & earn them as your brain rots from boredom (which can happen literally).

Anyway I don't mean to defend PoE, but as I said, DE appears to want open world & everyone believes they intend to double down on the idea with Venus. Our energy at this juncture would be better spent thinking of ways to better implement open world as opposed to thinking "this shouldn't exist & it's a complete disaster". We should instead think "how can we make this >not< or >less of< a disaster". Yet again, that's not to say we should forget the main game, but we do have an extra game aspect to tend to.

Open world content could be great. Destiny 2 does a great job with patrols, adventures, public events and Lost Sectors, on top of encounters while roaming.

Warframe does not do open areas nearly as well. Just tiny little mission areas with a bunch of defense missions. It's boring.

[(PSN)VagueWisdom]

41 minutes ago, BlackCoMerc said:

Open world content could be great. Destiny 2 does a great job with patrols, adventures, public events and Lost Sectors, on top of encounters while roaming.

Warframe does not do open areas nearly as well. Just tiny little mission areas with a bunch of defense missions. It's boring.

I haven't played Destiny 2. I quit the original Destiny at House of Wolves  & only stayed that far because it was part of the season pass, which I got roped into when it was still new.

From what I do remember from the original Destiny based around its own open world, yes it is done better. The difference is that Bungie had it initially planned to be open world, where practically everything has a preset, non-random area that players go to do stuff, from farming (which was still terrible as I remember it), bounties, raids, & nightfalls.

Warframe is still this weird premature game where it is stuck in beta but doesn't feel like it anymore because it's been so long. Part of why PoE feels so out of place is that the main game is all based around randomized tilesets. Everything in Warframe, as we have known it since around 2013, takes place in these randomized tilesets.

This difference tells us everything we need to know & do to better implement & integrate open world. Either everything else follows suit, or the idea gets abandoned, leaving us back at square 1 where everyone was feeling the stagnation of those same, samey tilesets, before PoE, waiting for new content as we have been doing.

I'd try to suggest a way to fix that dichotomy, but I'm worried we're derailing the thread too early. If you & others feel we've beaten mining & fishing enough, I'll go ahead & do some title editing to reflect an objective change.

[BlackCoMerc]

Well said.

As for open worlds: 

Make activities fun: Or don't have them. Mining isn't fun, and it in no way ties to core game play. So why spend time on it. Just because it fits Minecraft, does not mean it fits here.

No more Bounties: standing in one place, defending stationary objects, is boring. Get us moving. Look at D2 Lost Sector and Patrol missions for ideas, as both are pretty cool side activities.

Time Gates are fine. RNG gates...not so much. Determine how long a reward should take. Then let us put in the time. 

There are too many things in Warframe, and I already have to decide when I sit down whether I want to play Warframe, or Warframe 2: PoE. Your open world is competing with your main game, NOT complimenting it. That's a problem.

Fix aggro ranges: seriously, "unlimited" Loss and aggro should NEVER happen. That's a bug, not intended design. You NEED to fix this before dropping your enemies into a room with no walls.

Level.design: flat and boring isn't fun. Add verticality and a sense of scale.

Lastly: tell your parents company overlords to back off of your game design. Reduce the grind. Fix enemy design to be fun and engaging, as opposed to control robbing, power canceling Tedium. No amount of open world lipstick will make the pig that is Warframe enemy design any prettier at this point.

It is not the lack of an open world that hinders the games growth. Any more than lack of space flight or rocket league. The problem with Warframe is the core game play of cheese or be cheesed and until that is fixed, the game has hit a wall. Players want to engage enemies, not turn the off or be turned off.

 

[(PSN)VagueWisdom]

@BlackCoMerc Please excuse my lack of activity. I've been busy & also need to get a hold of my laptop to properly multi-quote your points. (I've been mostly using my console browser)

[(PSN)ForNoPurpose]

Ok you know what i see mining in most mmos as just find a node and push a button...

Warframes mining is some of the most interesting video game mining i have ever seen so stop complaining.

Its not something that should or will go away either. Most open worlds have it and free to play games always have grindy mechanics out the ass and warframe is no exception.

Is it annoying? Yes. Big woop. Every game has something that is annoying.

[BlackCoMerc]

57 minutes ago, (PS4)ForNoPurpose said:

Ok you know what i see mining in most mmos as just find a node and push a button...

Warframes mining is some of the most interesting video game mining i have ever seen so stop complaining.

Its not something that should or will go away either. Most open worlds have it and free to play games always have grindy mechanics out the ass and warframe is no exception.

Is it annoying? Yes. Big woop. Every game has something that is annoying.

So... other game have garbage mechanics, so...it's ok for Warframe to add crap mechanics, too...

Yeah...no.

[(PSN)VagueWisdom]

9 hours ago, (PS4)ForNoPurpose said:

Ok you know what i see mining in most mmos as just find a node and push a button...

Warframes mining is some of the most interesting video game mining i have ever seen so stop complaining.

Its not something that should or will go away either. Most open worlds have it and free to play games always have grindy mechanics out the ass and warframe is no exception.

Is it annoying? Yes. Big woop. Every game has something that is annoying.

Someone skimmed the first page a bit too fast.

The point you missed was that we weren't wanting mining to be removed. We wanted it to be intuitive, well integrated, expansive, & robust. It has qualities & signs that are good & bad.

Edited April 24, 2018 by (PS4)VagueWisdom

[(PSN)VagueWisdom]

On 4/13/2018 at 1:00 PM, BlackCoMerc said:

As for open worlds: 

Make activities fun: Or don't have them. Mining isn't fun, and it in no way ties to core game play. So why spend time on it. Just because it fits Minecraft, does not mean it fits here.

If we go off our previous suggestions & ideas, mining could potentially tie in better by enabling bulk farming & multiple farm methods. Ferros for example could potentially use a "Resource Converter BP" to make it into Ferrite Ingots, which are what normally drop from enemies on Mercury, Earth, Lua, Neptune, & the Void. Coprun could be combined with other metals, along with Plastids, Polymer, or a new 'carbonaceous' mining resource to create Circuits & Control Modules. 

Quote

No more Bounties: standing in one place, defending stationary objects, is boring. Get us moving. Look at D2 Lost Sector and Patrol missions for ideas, as both are pretty cool side activities.

Time Gates are fine. RNG gates...not so much. Determine how long a reward should take. Then let us put in the time. 

There are too many things in Warframe, and I already have to decide when I sit down whether I want to play Warframe, or Warframe 2: PoE. Your open world is competing with your main game, NOT complimenting it. That's a problem.

Again I haven't played Destiny 2 to know what Lost Sector is & I think I need a refresher on Patrol missions.

I assume what you mean by Time Gated rewards is a singular reward that has a 100% chance to drop given enough time, skill, &/or effort. Yes, that would be infinitely better than RNG. Players would prefer to test their ability & determination, not their luck & understanding of gambling. There's Event, Skill, & Challenge Gates as well. We already have Event Gates, but we need Skill & Challenge Gates to replace RNG Gates. Some RNG gates could stay, possibly, such as Void Relics.

Quote

Fix aggro ranges: seriously, "unlimited" Loss and aggro should NEVER happen. That's a bug, not intended design. You NEED to fix this before dropping your enemies into a room with no walls.

Such as enemies, while in an unalert state, being completely oblivious to what's going on around them past a 15m visual range or 30-40m noise range. Then when they are alert, a standard Lancer can just as easily harass you as a Ballista out to 70-80m. Ballista are also terrible shots as snipers.

Quote

Level.design: flat and boring isn't fun. Add verticality and a sense of scale.

Definitely. I'm still waiting to be able to climb the giant trees in the open world version of the Orokin engineered Earth forests.

Quote

Lastly: tell your parents company overlords to back off of your game design. Reduce the grind. Fix enemy design to be fun and engaging, as opposed to control robbing, power canceling Tedium. No amount of open world lipstick will make the pig that is Warframe enemy design any prettier at this point.

It is not the lack of an open world that hinders the games growth. Any more than lack of space flight or rocket league. The problem with Warframe is the core game play of cheese or be cheesed and until that is fixed, the game has hit a wall. Players want to engage enemies, not turn the off or be turned off.

Don't let the game die like Firefall did.

Edited April 24, 2018 by (PS4)VagueWisdom

[Ozamchist]

But how else will I paint bright pink dongs in the ground without my mining laser?

[(PSN)ForNoPurpose]

6 hours ago, (PS4)VagueWisdom said:

Someone skimmed the first page a bit too fast.

The point you missed was that we weren't wanting mining to be removed. We wanted it to be intuitive, well integrated, expansive, & robust. It has qualities & signs that are good & bad.

Its mining... do you want the laser to physically cut away the ore and have it artfully drop to the ground where you have to pick it up? Or maybe find node/push button/get loot instantly with just a cutsy animation?

 

There is not much you can do with the concept of open world mining >.>. Not everything in a game has to be "Fun".

 

As it is the entire open world bit is highly intrusive and awkward, fix those problems first. Fix everything that is being neglected in favor of the open world.. then they can make mining "better".

Edited April 25, 2018 by (PS4)ForNoPurpose

[(PSN)VagueWisdom]

On April 24, 2018 at 8:21 PM, (PS4)ForNoPurpose said:

Its mining... do you want the laser to physically cut away the ore and have it artfully drop to the ground where you have to pick it up? Or maybe find node/push button/get loot instantly with just a cutsy animation?

There is not much you can do with the concept of open world mining >.>. Not everything in a game has to be "Fun".

As it is the entire open world bit is highly intrusive and awkward, fix those problems first. Fix everything that is being neglected in favor of the open world.. then they can make mining "better".

It's a game... why should anything in a game >not< be fun? Your point on this is nonsensical.

We can still discuss ways to improve aspects within the open world section of Warframe & also consider ways to better integrate it at the same time. Why? Because when open world is properly integrated, why would anyone want a terribly boring mining system littered throughout the rest of the game? I'd much rather have mining be capable of holding players' attention before shoehorning it into the entirety of Warframe.

I didn't say to ignore the base game either. There are plenty of problems in the base game.

In a perfect world, the open world & everything within it would be awesome & well integrated & implemented at the get-go, but Warframe is still beta, so that perfect world doesn't exist, less so for PC players since they're the "testing zone" before anything hits console.

Because of that perfect world not existing here, or anywhere, I'm saying we have to consider how well received a better integrated open world would be in Warframe given that mining, as it is currently, will rot your mind if you do it long enough, due to how boring it is.

Bounties, fishing, hunting, foraging (foraging being the gathering of Maprico, Nistlepod, Iradite, & Cetus Wisps). Considering how flawed all of those are, why would you, or anyone, want integration before better implementation? That's counter intuitive in my view.

Also, you still need to read the first page, when you have the time of course.

Edited May 1, 2018 by (PS4)VagueWisdom
Because ForNoPurpose decided that my wording suggested I was entitled &/or self-absorbed

[(PSN)VagueWisdom]

5 hours ago, TermiteFrame said:

But how else will I paint bright pink dongs in the ground without my mining laser?

You can still do that. I just want something better for mining. Mining doesn't have to go anywhere.

[BlackCoMerc]

8 hours ago, (PS4)ForNoPurpose said:

Its mining... do you want the laser to physically cut away the ore and have it artfully drop to the ground where you have to pick it up? Or maybe find node/push button/get loot instantly with just a cutsy animation?

 

There is not much you can do with the concept of open world mining >.>. Not everything in a game has to be "Fun".

 

As it is the entire open world bit is highly intrusive and awkward, fix those problems first. Fix everything that is being neglected in favor of the open world.. then they can make mining "better".

Actually, yes... everything in a game absolutely should be fun. That's why we play games. For fun.

If mechanics aren't fun, redesign them so they are, or get rid of them.

[(PSN)ForNoPurpose]

Ahh, one complaining its not fun so should be remove while another demands changes for the same reason and ignores that half the discussion that is demanding removal, all while giving paper thin, self entitled reasoning why this one specific thing is wrong or stupid.

 

Where is my bingo board?

[(PSN)VagueWisdom]

3 hours ago, (PS4)ForNoPurpose said:

Ahh, one complaining its not fun so should be remove while another demands changes for the same reason and ignores that half the discussion that is demanding removal, all while giving paper thin, self entitled reasoning why this one specific thing is wrong or stupid.

 

Where is my bingo board?

I ignored nothing. Read the entire topic & contribute to the conversation properly or GTFO.

BTW, @BlackCoMerc only suggested removal on the condition that open world & anything within it >does not improve<. I'd agree fully with that.

Edited April 25, 2018 by (PS4)VagueWisdom

[(PSN)VagueWisdom]

What portion of PoE & open world should we move to?

• Fishing
• Hunting
• Foraging
• Bounties & Incursions
• Eidolons
• Ghouls
• Plague Star
• Integration (with the main game)
• Venus & everything that entails

I suggested a space expansion as part of improving fishing. What about the Oro Tower & the Unum? The town seems pretty small too. Are the Ostron mostly living in the tower?

We can also continue with mining if we want.

For Venus I hope to NOT see another new syndicate in the same vein as the Ostron & Quills. Could Venus open world possibly be centered around ?

I would also like for there to not be resources exclusive to the Venus open world as that was an integration issue with PoE.

Edited May 10, 2018 by (PS4)VagueWisdom

[(PSN)VagueWisdom]

I think the most important issue with open world is integration into the rest of the game.

I'll elaborate on this later as I'm more worried about melee 3.0 at this time.

Replies are welcome.