So...pistols Have 180% Multishot + 90% Ap, And Riffles Have 90% Multishot + 60% Ap...

[PettiTheYeti]

I'm probably one of very few on this, but I absolutely love running with pistols. Turning them into miniature shotguns is kind of strange, but my Lato Prime doesn't complain.

[GottFaust]

I know perfectly well what he meant. He's asking if the damage stacks additively, like an elemental mod, or if it stacks multiplicatively, where it multiplies the damage rather than adding a static damage. Just look at what he said.Multishot fires all your shots again, applying after everything else (damage, elemental), and essentially multiplies the damage by the % of multishot you have, instead of applying just to a simple base like elemental. While a 100% elemental damage just adds your base again as damage, multishot applies to not only the base, but also every elemental effect you have. Meaning the damage goes up in much larger chunks than the additive style of elemental stacking (500 base damage with 1500 damage in elemental mods, add another 100% elemental and go from 2000->2500, add a 100% multishot go from 2000->4000).This is a lot of the reason many people consider multishot gamebreaking, it's like having a secondary mod devoted to base damage (only it adds AFTER a second base damage mod, making it even better than one).

I understand how multishot works. I was wondering if the mod values stack linearly or multiplicatively.

They appear to have a linear stacking by the way.

[Athros]

Now No Return get up to 90%.

 

Welp. My Rifles are sad.

[W4RM4CHIN3]

FFFFFFFFFFFF DE IS YOU SERIOUS? 180% MS + 90% Ap dafudge is wrong with you?

[Oranjeboom]

Just make a pistol that shoots Rhinos already...

 

it ll be more balanced than the last mods

[scope007]

FFFFFFFFFFFF DE IS YOU SERIOUS? 180% MS + 90% Ap dafudge is wrong with you?

I give up.... really balancing different weapon classes isn't hard!

[Athros]

At least my Lato Vandal is happy...

[W4RM4CHIN3]

I give up.... really balancing different weapon classes isn't hard!

 

Well i'm giving up too, they just don't get it.

[DresiK.]

Matters less if you have incredible multishot on a pistol.

 

 Imagine 200% on a Gorgon or Supra. Or hell, the Ogris.

The Ogris  = 1 Rocket 100 Kills xD

[LazyKnight]

So, what part of this seems right?

Pistols Out DPS riffles as it is. Do Pistols realllyyyy need that 60% more MS? Riffles don't even have 100% which puts them at behind all other guns. DE make a dual mod for Riffles that has 60% AP and 60% MS. Even it out, as it is Lethal Torrent shouldn't exist.

Edit: Welp SCREW PRIMARIES. It was nice knowing you. I think i'll never switch from secondaries.

Since pistols got yet another buff.

Other than my V-snipetron and HEK I do not have a single primary worth using. So many of the primaries are just weak or require 5 forma to even see them preform well. I do not like most primaries anyway too many weak full auto weapons.

I am happy no-return is finally useable so I can enjoy weapon like Seer and LEX and all the others.

Edited August 14, 2013 by LazyKnight

[Verazix]

I understand how multishot works. I was wondering if the mod values stack linearly or multiplicatively.

They appear to have a linear stacking by the way.

Oh, I get what you're saying now. I took your "is multishot additive like elemental or multiplicative like crit" as "Does it apply before/after the elemental damage calculations?"

Yeah, it's definitely linear if you mean whether it's 1.2 + .6 or 1.2 * 1.6. It's the former, meaning 180% multishot total. I apologize for the confusion in that case; I thought it was common sense that all mods added together (like Blaze and Point Blank, and I believe Hammer Shot + Vital Sense as well), and if I'm still not getting what you're saying, perhaps I'm just not quite as competent as I'd like to think I am.

Edited August 14, 2013 by Verazix

[Lysander26]

Well, No Return should be either reduced to 10% per point, or it should have a higher base energy point allotment, because right now, its as busted as hell.

[MECT_HET]

Well, No Return should be either reduced to 10% per point, or it should have a higher base energy point allotment, because right now, its as busted as hell.

I think that's ok with it. Maxed elemental mod should deal 90% of addictive damage and should cost 7 energy. This is pretty. Now do the same for the all other mods and all other weapons please and I will be happy.

[W4RM4CHIN3]

Well, No Return should be either reduced to 10% per point, or it should have a higher base energy point allotment, because right now, its as busted as hell.

 

No return = 7 points 90%

 

Piercing Hit = 9 points 60% nah makes TOTAL SENSE

[LazyKnight]

No return = 7 points 90%

 

Piercing Hit = 9 points 60% nah makes TOTAL SENSE

I like standardized values for base mods such as frost, AP, etc(I do not care about specialty mods like blaze). I wouldn't mind if piercing hit and spilt chamber were identical to pistols and shotguns just because I am tired of rolling a 1 with a sniper weapon and not getting a double shot. Making piercing hit 90% would hardly be game breaking it is not like people are thinking primaries are OP...lol

Edited August 15, 2013 by LazyKnight

[Saenol]

Matters less if you have incredible multishot on a pistol.

 

Not really, as it's improving your effectiveness by the same relative amount.

 

Question:  How does this affect your gameplay at all?  As far as I know, Warframe is a PvE game.  So who cares if one player decides to have 180% MS in his Secondary Weapon?  It doesn't affect you at all.

 

Of course it affects me, my secondaries are better than my primaries. How is this a difficult concept for so many to grasp?

 

Just because I'm not competing with another player doesn't mean it's any less $&*&*#(%& that a sidearm out DPSes a comparable tier long gun at all ranges and nearly all situation.

 

Yes, I can remove mods from my weapons to artificially cripple one, but I should not have to.

Edited August 15, 2013 by Saenol

[Grandarex]

Of course it affects me, my secondaries are better than my primaries. How is this a difficult concept for so many to grasp?

 

What I can't grasp is why this even matters. Why is it so important for primaries to be absolutely better than secondaries? 

 

It's like... being upset that your appetizers taste better than your main dish. Who cares? Why does it matter? Just enjoy the moment.

[Lord.Finster]

Because both 'styles' of combat should be equally viable. That's why.

[Saenol]

What I can't grasp is why this even matters. Why is it so important for primaries to be absolutely better than secondaries? 

 

Verisimilitude.

 

Every game not trying to be a joke or a surrealistic piece of pseudo-art needs a degree of verisimilitude. Stuff needs to make sense and have a degree of internal, logical, consistency, at least relative to the standards of the world it represents.

 

Primaries being generally inferior to secondaries destroys verisimilitude. It makes no sense and this ruins immersion, which lessens the entertainment value I can derive from the game.

 

 

 Who cares?

 

I care.

 

Judging by the number of these threads, and the response to them, it should be fairly apparent that many other people care as well.

 

Why does it matter?

 

See above.

 

 Just enjoy the moment.

 

You try enjoying the moment when a fundamental aspect of what makes it enjoyable is backwards.

 

Actually, since you don't seem to care about these issues, what possible problem would you have if things were changed to make them more satisfactory to those who do care?

[LazyKnight]

This latest buff to the No-return mod and the introduction of lethal torrent final made my 5 forma seer useable and enjoyable. If primaries are in dire need of a buff make a topic on how to even the playing field such as fixing split chamber or something. I like being able to finaly retire my despair so I can use other weapons now that there is a reliable way to bypass armor for the non chosen weapons that do not happen to be Ai.

Edited August 16, 2013 by LazyKnight

[LazerusKI]

pff, primarys are just for fun in my opinion.

if i see that an enemy is to hard for my primary, like they survive a shot of my (5x Forma'd) Lanka, or they take a long time with my Supra...i simply switch to my (not fully modded, unforma'd) Acrid.

[Tyrian3k]

Why is it so important for primaries to be absolutely better than secondaries? 

 

You missed the actual problem there. The problem isn't that primaries need to be absolutely better than secondaries, the problem is that secondaries are absolutely better than primaries right now.

[Grandarex]

Verisimilitude.

 

Every game not trying to be a joke or a surrealistic piece of pseudo-art needs a degree of verisimilitude. Stuff needs to make sense and have a degree of internal, logical, consistency, at least relative to the standards of the world it represents.

 

Primaries being generally inferior to secondaries destroys verisimilitude. It makes no sense and this ruins immersion, which lessens the entertainment value I can derive from the game.

 

Well... they sort of threw any sense of realism out the window when they made a game of space pirate ninjas.

The fact that throwing knives are stronger than a rifle is rather easy to swallow when you have a fully-armored and suited humanoids jumping, running up the walls, manipulating various 'elements' such as fire, ice, and electricity, and (soon to be) life and death.

 

 

You try enjoying the moment when a fundamental aspect of what makes it enjoyable is backwards.

 

I find it hard to believe that your "fundamental aspect of what makes [the game] enjoyable" is the fact that primary weapons are stronger than the secondary. I'll assume that this is a mere exaggeration since I can't imagine anyone firing up a shooter game, and throwing it out the window as soon as you find out that your secondaries are more potent than your primary. 

 

So that's exactly what I mean by "enjoy the moment". 

I'm just telling you to chill out and just enjoy the massacre you bring upon your enemies. It doesn't really matter if your poison dart guns kill things better and faster than your assault rifle! Let it be. 

 

 

Actually, since you don't seem to care about these issues, what possible problem would you have if things were changed to make them more satisfactory to those who do care?

 

None. I'm playing the devil's advocate. 

[LazyKnight]

You missed the actual problem there. The problem isn't that primaries need to be absolutely better than secondaries, the problem is that secondaries are absolutely better than primaries right now.

There is no secondary that is a better sniper than a real sniper weapon. The only ones that are hurting are the rapid fire auto weapons.  They have never been good and people have been complaining about weapons like gorgon and others failing at higher levels mission for awhile now.  

 

Make a topic to fix the weapon that are broken(full-auto primaries) I couldn't solo a t3 defense with ANY of the auto/burst weapons yet I can if I use a sniper rifle(using ammo mutation) and a decent Ai backup. I could likely solo it with a HEK as well but it would be a lot harder. I am sure I could solo with a Latron prime it just would have a much higher chance of me failing than if I used V-Snipetron or HEK.

Edited August 16, 2013 by LazyKnight

[MECT_HET]

pff, primarys are just for fun in my opinion.

if i see that an enemy is to hard for my primary, like they survive a shot of my (5x Forma'd) Lanka, or they take a long time with my Supra...i simply switch to my (not fully modded, unforma'd) Acrid.

^this.

 

Who cares about supras, lankas and flux rifles when you can deal with your target with a few not-even-well-placed shot to somewhere to the target's direction from your acrid. Haven't meet a PRIMARY able to do the same except ogris which is formally not a rifle and easily can kill yourself.