A noob's thought on Warframe's endgame

[(PSN)JustJoshinEnt]

5 hours ago, (PS4)BOSS_TPH76 said:

I never said it was't....I said it is a shallow game with no layers. 

And so far you huffed and puffed but offered no examples of the game being deep. What you did say is that there is things to do and gave some esoteric mumbo-jumbo about it being a journey rather than a destination. 

I didn't say it should carry over to the real world...I am saying it has no relevance on the game. I was quite explicit in that and given the fact that you snipped all of that and didn't actually address the core of the issue....I am just going to take this as a straw man argument and a lack of arguments on your end. 

Yeah...it is a shallow story too.

Nothing we do is required for the game or, more importantly, has any impact on it outside if a few missions and mechanically required tasks. 

But you consistently confuse "joy" and "fun" with deep and multi-layered. Going off on some weird tangent as if I have said shallow and one dimensional can' t be fun or enjoyable inatead of having repeatedly said the opposite. 

I am realistic about what the game offers and haven't deluded myself into thinking this is somehow deep game play or multi-layered. The game is shallow af. 

The game literally is: kill stuff and collect loot to make better stuff to kill more stuff to get more loot to make different stuff. Collecting power you don't need (but more importantly is redundant power because the game offers nothing for it) trying to "master" frames and "move sets" as if they matter even in the slightest. Because it doesn't. At all. It has ZERO effect on the game. You are doing that for you...inspite of the game just to keep the game have meaning for you. 

And yet you can not name one example that isn't inspite of the game. 

We are disagreeing. You are getting upset. I am not. 

You offer esoteric musings and I am offering arguments rooted in the game and it's mechanics. 

You say you have to find meaning outside the game play and see that as depth and I say that that is exactly why the game itself is shallow af. 

Who's upset, man?  lol  I "snipped" it because it was, like this one, a text wall.  I don't want to crowd the thread and lock up a decent discussion with senseless babble that they've read before.  

Dude, you do you.  To -me-, depth apparently has a different definition, because I gave my "examples".  But whatever.  Like I said, I'm not here to argue with fellow Tenno.  If we all love the game in our own different way for our own different reasons, that's kinda my point.  

Anyways, enjoy!

[TinFoilMkIV]

17 hours ago, (PS4)BOSS_TPH76 said:

There is 1 playstyle for pretty much most of the game: run as fast as possible to the target...kill or destroy it...run as fast as you can to extraction. The only times you deflect from that is while running endless or ESO...in which case the go to strategy is: CTFOOI.  The rest are details.

While I generally disagree with your views here, this statement is objectively false. If I play a capture mission and kill any enemies other than the target, or stop to grab an ayatan star or something, am I then not playing Warframe? Just because there is a clear and objectively most efficient playstyle does not make it the only playstyle.

I personally believe that it's in a person's best interest to pursue playstyles that they find the most enjoyable even if they're sub-optimal. Of course it's well within other players rights to not be happy about someone playing in a way that doesn't align with their own very well in a public environment.

You could argue that making "all the interesting things" completely optional and something a player has no need to explore ever is poor design, and I'd sometimes agree. The thing is that one of Warframe's big principles seems to be player freedom and choice, which it does by making very few things truly mandatory for a player to make use of

17 hours ago, (PS4)BOSS_TPH76 said:

Experience what exactly? A gun that shoots slightly different? To do the same mission over and over with the same mandatory mods for the same resources you need to build a slightly different gun to do the same mission you were OP for to begin with yet again but only slightly more OP this time...and the enemies even slightly more irrelevant?  

If you like to grind then you like to grind. But don't tell me the game changes significantly if you use the Vipers over the Akjaggara.

Because every gun in warframe is an automatic hitscan weapon... Now ignoring the fact that there are still plenty of weapons that have very significant differences in mechanics, the answer is still very much yes. Unless you truly believe that there is one ideal weapon that will suit any and every players preferences perfectly, then there is plenty reason to at least give similar weapons a try. Slight differences in fire rate and recoil and reload speed and such can be a very significant difference depending on a persons preferences.

On the final note, I'd say you picked a poor choice for your last example, as to me, a person who very much prefer's semi-auto sidearms to full autos, the Akjaggara does change the game significantly for me versus using the Vipers.

Edited May 31, 2018 by TinFoilMkIV

[GunRunnerX]

On 2018-05-29 at 1:21 AM, (PS4)Taishin_Ishu said:

Let's revisit these points after you get some more playtime under your belt.  There is alot left for you to experience in-game, I assure you.

No there's not, I can assure OP there's not.  Once you have a basic equipment setup like his, 99% of the game is no longer challenging or rewarding.  I've been playing since beta and this is worse now than it has ever been.  At least at one point there was some small incentive to run infinite void runs, which becomes difficult for most comps.  There's literally nothing now that can be considered both challenging and not a waste of time.

Also I'm putting my foot in the door before I hear the usual response to the above, that the game itself being fun should be enough reward and quit playing if you think otherwise.  This is the most redundant, non-useful, terrible argument.  Just getting that out there.

[(PSN)BOSS_TPH76]

On 2018-05-31 at 5:57 PM, (PS4)Taishin_Ishu said:

Who's upset, man?  lol  I "snipped" it because it was, like this one, a text wall.  I don't want to crowd the thread and lock up a decent discussion with senseless babble that they've read before.  

Dude, you do you.  To -me-, depth apparently has a different definition, because I gave my "examples".  But whatever.  Like I said, I'm not here to argue with fellow Tenno.  If we all love the game in our own different way for our own different reasons, that's kinda my point.  

Anyways, enjoy!

Yes and that is the main point I am making....your definition of "depth" is entirely made up and doesn't really touch on what the term refers to and hence you indeed offer up "senseless" esoteric babble about the game having many things to do and being fun and being a reward in itself. 

The problem is that depth used in its proper definition doesn't mean any of these things but more or less refers to the extent in which your actions and choices meaningfully affect the game and to what extent the game requires you to actually think and make meaningful choices. 

And that is absent or at the very best severely lacking in warframe. 

So instead of you snipping "a wall of text" you merely snipped the definition of "depth" and transplanted it with your own.

 

Edited June 3, 2018 by (PS4)BOSS_TPH76

[Sannleikur]

You want a challenge at end game? Then fashion frame and ship and dojo decorating are for you!

Destroying is easy in the game. Even level 9999 enemies go down with ease to a number of setups. 

Creating S#&$, that's hard. It's also where the real rewards come from. Art competitions and such that DE hosts every few weeks or so with massive prizes, youtube content creators getting ad revenue, tennogen creators getting their moola.

Being serious though, it'd be nice to see more challenging content in game with unique and exclusive rewards.

[(PSN)BOSS_TPH76]

On 2018-05-31 at 9:02 PM, TinFoilMkIV said:

While I generally disagree with your views here, this statement is objectively false. If I play a capture mission and kill any enemies other than the target, or stop to grab an ayatan star or something, am I then not playing Warframe? Just because there is a clear and objectively most efficient playstyle does not make it the only playstyle.

It isn't really false. The fact you pick up resources doesn't really alter the reality that it is entirely irrelevant to the game play nor does it change the fact that the playstyle in this game is fast paced. You are merely altering the definition of "efficient". 

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I personally believe that it's in a person's best interest to pursue playstyles that they find the most enjoyable even if they're sub-optimal.

I haven't said they shouldn't. But this is a choice in spite of the game. The game will do its thing separate from your choice....and doesn't in any way react to it.

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Of course it's well within other players rights to not be happy about someone playing in a way that doesn't align with their own very well in a public environment.

This is how 99% of the public matches play out:

Get in. Get out. And if you, as an individual or duo, hang back...you will be forced out in about 50 secs. 

And this touches on the heart of the issue...the choices you make as an individual are merely choices to the degree with which you hamstring yourself. 

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You could argue that making "all the interesting things" completely optional and something a player has no need to explore ever is poor design, and I'd sometimes agree. The thing is that one of Warframe's big principles seems to be player freedom and choice, which it does by making very few things truly mandatory for a player to make use of

The big argument is that nothing you do has any big relevance to the game itself and really doesn't alter it.

But the fact that you have player choice to the degree that we have in warframe necessitates the game being shallow so all those choices are to some degree viable and don't matter. 

The point where your choices affect the game in meaningful ways and start requiring thought and weighing of pro's and con's and actual strategy is when you go for endless 

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Because every gun in warframe is an automatic hitscan weapon... Now ignoring the fact that there are still plenty of weapons that have very significant differences in mechanics, the answer is still very much yes. Unless you truly believe that there is one ideal weapon that will suit any and every players preferences perfectly, then there is plenty reason to at least give similar weapons a try. Slight differences in fire rate and recoil and reload speed and such can be a very significant difference depending on a persons preferences.

Yes...to the "individual" and NOT the game itself. Because it doesn't affect 99% of the game one bit nor does it really alter the strategy.....nor most of the mods. The game plays out exactly the same because the general difficulty and mechanics are shallow. It doesn't require anything. 

And while that may seem to offer player choice I think it, in reality, limits it. I can select a different frame for each mission and carefully think about strategy but the thing you will discover as you progress through time is that it really doesn't matter. 

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On the final note, I'd say you picked a poor choice for your last example, as to me, a person who very much prefer's semi-auto sidearms to full autos, the Akjaggara does change the game significantly for me versus using the Vipers.

Personal preference is one thing...but to say it meaningfully affects the game is quite another...and the only real effect it has is efficiency. 

The point I am trying to make is that for the star chart none of your choices matter. And that is the majority of the game. For "end game" like Eidolon hunting, ESO, SO, Sorties...your choices only really affect efficiency or the ability to complete the task and the activities are either geared to make you better at doing them (a point you reach quite quickly) or give you power you do not need for anything in the game because nothing in this game actually require them. 

So we do the things we do because we do the things we do. They are inspite of "the game" or because of our choice to hamstring ourselves. 

 

Edited June 3, 2018 by (PS4)BOSS_TPH76

[(PSN)JustJoshinEnt]

On 2018-05-31 at 4:19 PM, GunRunnerX said:

No there's not, I can assure OP there's not.  Once you have a basic equipment setup like his, 99% of the game is no longer challenging or rewarding.  I've been playing since beta and this is worse now than it has ever been.  At least at one point there was some small incentive to run infinite void runs, which becomes difficult for most comps.  There's literally nothing now that can be considered both challenging and not a waste of time.

Also I'm putting my foot in the door before I hear the usual response to the above, that the game itself being fun should be enough reward and quit playing if you think otherwise.  This is the most redundant, non-useful, terrible argument.  Just getting that out there.

You cannot simply state "Once you have basic equipment...blah blah no fun..."  That's not a fact.  I, having about 1000 hrs in the game, and over a year of gameplay under my belt, at MR20, still find a TON of fun in running pretty much any mission type!  Do I play as many hours a day as I used to?  No, though much of that has to do with my business, but honestly, DE has said themselves that they do not intend you to be putting in 150 hrs in two weeks' time.  They WANT this to be played casually.  The fact that people overendulge so heavily is not DE's fault.   Eating pizza doesn't make you unhealthy or lethargic.  Eating so MUCH pizza that you're downing 2 pies a day?  Yeah, that'll do it.  It's not the pizzeria's fault you overendulge though.  

I'm not gonna tell you to "quit playing", because I don't really want that for anyone, but....I gotta say, I think we're playing two different games here, tbh.  If your PASSION for the game has died just because you've run out of "meaningful bullet sponges" then...well, I don't think you ever really enjoyed all the game has to offer.  
But telling people that having "basic equipment setup like his, 99% of the game is no longer challenging or rewarding"?  Well..I dare say that's just "the most redundant, non-useful, terrible argument".  js

[(PSN)JustJoshinEnt]

1 hour ago, (PS4)BOSS_TPH76 said:

Yes and that is the main point I am making....your definition of "depth" is entirely made up and doesn't really touch on what the term refers to and hence you indeed offer up "senseless" esoteric babble about the game having many things to do and being fun and being a reward in itself. 

The problem is that depth used in its proper definition doesn't mean any of these things but more or less refers to the extent in which your actions and choices meaningfully affect the game and to what extent the game requires you to actually think and make meaningful choices. 

And that is absent or at the very best severely lacking in warframe. 

So instead of you snipping "a wall of text" you merely snipped the definition of "depth" and transplanted it with your own.

 

Dude, I was TRYING to be nice, but screw it.   

Depth, as it pertains to storytelling or art, is defined as "complexity and profundity of thought".  

Yes, I DO believe that Warframe's story has many profound moments, and there is certainly a level of complexity in how all these elements mesh together.

I'm not twisting a definition.  That IS the definition.  So you can stop right now with the accusations. Just because you don't agree doesn't mean it isn't the case.

As far as your choices "mattering"... No, this isn't exactly a "Choose-Your-Own-Adventure" style game, persay.  Then again, it was never -ever- marketed to be that, either.  There are little cinematic moments where your choices DO matter, and that's all to benefit the single player experience, but this in many ways is an RPG, or at least has RPG elements, and that means it's all about the player being able to PLAY the ROLE in the GAME that they identify with best.  

If they wanna sneak around, they can work for gear to do just that.  I  can use Loki or Ivara to turn an entire Exterminate mission or Survival mission into a cool stealth/infiltration-type game.  If people want to simply run about, there are now more ways than ever to enjoy parkour in-game.  Perhaps they just want to fashion frame, or focus on building a clan, or fight giant monsters, etc...

There are many roles to play in Warframe.   That aside, however, this is an MMO in a SHARED universe, where each Tenno takes part.  There are reasonably only so many "choices" they can allow you to make thematically before every player's choices don't match up for major events, etc.  That's just logically not a smart move.  

As far as choices on an equipment level, which seems to be one of the things you and the OP were commenting on, there are PLENTY of ways to mix things up.  There will always be a player-defined Meta, but that by no means should prevent you from trying other things out.   I almost NEVER use the meta and I do -just fine-!  

YES, enemies die easily.  We are super god space ninjas vs ...what, basic troopers?  Cat ladies?  Overworked rich guys (Corpus) or mindless parasitic drones (Infested)?  OF COURSE we can kick their butts!  Why WOULDN'T we be able to?

Many of them DO pose a challenge at higher levels, provided you aren't just cheesing it.  And well...if you are, again, that's not DE's fault that you've chosen to put in minimum effort.

And at the end of the day, yes, I WILL insist that the reward is playing the game in the first place.  If you're complaining about power creep, then stop demanding more power.  We don't need new shiny toys to make a mission worth running.  Just some good friends, an interesting frame, and an open mindset.

There's nothing to "win" in Warframe.  It's just there to play, so go play...or don't.  But stop telling others they shouldn't bother.

[(PSN)BOSS_TPH76]

1 hour ago, (PS4)Taishin_Ishu said:

Dude, I was TRYING to be nice, but screw it.   

I don't care whether you are trying to be nice. I care about the lack of substance in your arguments...that doesn't change with you being nice or not. 

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Depth, as it pertains to storytelling or art, is defined as "complexity and profundity of thought".  

Neither of which warframe has to any substantial level and neither of these are applicable to the game as a whole. Nor do they affect the game...regardless of any choices you can make...they are never ever coming back outside of the instance you make them.

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Yes, I DO believe that Warframe's story has many profound moments, and there is certainly a level of complexity in how all these elements mesh together.

NONE of which affect the game. 

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I'm not twisting a definition.  That IS the definition.  So you can stop right now with the accusations. Just because you don't agree doesn't mean it isn't the case.

Lol. You are trying to reduce a game to "art and story". Here is the thing.....the game came first and the story was added after. There is NOTHING in the story that actually affects the game play. 

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As far as your choices "mattering"... No, this isn't exactly a "Choose-Your-Own-Adventure" style game, persay.  Then again, it was never -ever- marketed to be that, either.  There are little cinematic moments where your choices DO matter, and that's all to benefit the single player experience, but this in many ways is an RPG, or at least has RPG elements, and that means it's all about the player being able to PLAY the ROLE in the GAME that they identify with best.  

Really? Your choices matter in the story missions? Which ones dude? Which ones? Because the two "major" examples have literally NO effects whatsoever. They are absolutely meaningless and have absolutely no bearing on anything happening before, during or after within the game. They are just an illusion. 

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If they wanna sneak around, they can work for gear to do just that.  I  can use Loki or Ivara to turn an entire Exterminate mission or Survival mission into a cool stealth/infiltration-type game.  If people want to simply run about, there are now more ways than ever to enjoy parkour in-game.  Perhaps they just want to fashion frame, or focus on building a clan, or fight giant monsters, etc...

There are many roles to play in Warframe.   That aside, however, this is an MMO in a SHARED universe, where each Tenno takes part.  There are reasonably only so many "choices" they can allow you to make thematically before every player's choices don't match up for major events, etc.  That's just logically not a smart move.  

And so the game is shallow. And you seem to equate that with "lack of quality" and hence you are getting extremely upset with people saying that.

The problem is that none of what you said is actually true. There is just the illusion of choice because the enemies will react exactly the same. But to make the choices possible and viable in the first place....they need to be redundant for the actual game.

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As far as choices on an equipment level, which seems to be one of the things you and the OP were commenting on, there are PLENTY of ways to mix things up.  There will always be a player-defined Meta, but that by no means should prevent you from trying other things out.   I almost NEVER use the meta and I do -just fine-!  

I never said you wouldn't do just fine...as usual you are missing the point....the fact that you do just fine outside the meta shows exactly how needless and redundant your choices actually are.

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YES, enemies die easily.  We are super god space ninjas vs ...what, basic troopers?  Cat ladies?  Overworked rich guys (Corpus) or mindless parasitic drones (Infested)?  OF COURSE we can kick their butts!  Why WOULDN'T we be able to?

And so the ONLY choice this game actually offers is the level of efficiency. 

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Many of them DO pose a challenge at higher levels, provided you aren't just cheesing it.  And well...if you are, again, that's not DE's fault that you've chosen to put in minimum effort.

Yes actually it is DE's "fault"....although you once again really need to stop talk about shallow and depth in the context of virtue. 

There is NOTHING in this game that requires you to do anything, make meaningful choices, apply strategy. The only choice you as a player have is "efficiency". In other words: "Do you kill the enemy with 1 shot or two shots or does your 1 shot kill kill with 10k or 100k damage".

And that is DE's job. 

 

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And at the end of the day, yes, I WILL insist that the reward is playing the game in the first place.  If you're complaining about power creep, then stop demanding more power.  We don't need new shiny toys to make a mission worth running.  Just some good friends, an interesting frame, and an open mindset.

I am not at all complaining...I am stating a fact.

A fact which you do not like and have so far failed to counter with an appropriate argument not based in redefining terminology or creating a one sided interpretation that doesn't fit the actual reality of the total. 

Again....you seem to have great difficulty to separate shallowness from sentiments of virtue. 

This isn't about "quality" or "fun" or "good vs wrong". That is ALL you.

The fact is if you are looking for actual meaning in what you do in this game....you are choosing the wrong game. And when you try to convince somebody who obviously looks for meaning in the things they do...yoh ate wilfully misleading them if you are trying to convince them that there is. 

This game offers nothing of that, or...if it makes you feel better, too little of it to matter. 

ALL the meaning comes from YOU as a player....NOT the actual game. 

 

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There's nothing to "win" in Warframe.  It's just there to play, so go play...or don't.  But stop telling others they shouldn't bother.

Never ever said that this game was winnable. This is you trying to inject "virtue" or "meaning" into the game and generally not really grasping the actual arguments. 

Here is another one: Stop telling others lies about the nature of the game when they are obviously looking for something this game does NOT offer. 

Edited June 3, 2018 by (PS4)BOSS_TPH76

[(PSN)JustJoshinEnt]

59 minutes ago, (PS4)BOSS_TPH76 said:

I don't care whether you are trying to be nice. I care about the lack of substance in your arguments...that doesn't change with you being nice or not. 

Neither of which warframe has to any substantial level and neither of these are applicable to the game as a whole. Nor do they affect the game...regardless of any choices you can make...they are never ever coming back outside of the instance you make them.

NONE of which affect the game. 

Lol. You are trying to reduce a game to "art and story". Here is the thing.....the game came first and the story was added after. There is NOTHING in the story that actually affects the game play. 

Really? Your choices matter in the story missions? Which ones dude? Which ones? Because the two "major" examples have literally NO effects whatsoever. They are absolutely meaningless and have absolutely no bearing on anything happening before, during or after within the game. They are just an illusion. 

And so the game is shallow. And you seem to equate that with "lack of quality" and hence you are getting extremely upset with people saying that.

The problem is that none of what you said is actually true. There is just the illusion of choice because the enemies will react exactly the same. But to make the choices possible and viable in the first place....they need to be redundant for the actual game.

I never said you wouldn't do just fine...as usual you are missing the point....the fact that you do just fine outside the meta shows exactly how needless and redundant your choices actually are.

And so the ONLY choice this game actually offers is the level of efficiency. 

Yes actually it is DE's "fault"....although you once again really need to stop talk about shallow and depth in the context of virtue. 

There is NOTHING in this game that requires you to do anything, make meaningful choices, apply strategy. The only choice you as a player have is "efficiency". In other words: "Do you kill the enemy with 1 shot or two shots or does your 1 shot kill kill with 10k or 100k damage".

And that is DE's job. 

 

I am not at all complaining...I am stating a fact.

A fact which you do not like and have so far failed to counter with an appropriate argument not based in redefining terminology or creating a one sided interpretation that doesn't fit the actual reality of the total. 

Again....you seem to have great difficulty to separate shallowness from sentiments of virtue. 

This isn't about "quality" or "fun" or "good vs wrong". That is ALL you.

The fact is if you are looking for actual meaning in what you do in this game....you are choosing the wrong game. And when you try to convince somebody who obviously looks for meaning in the things they do...yoh ate wilfully misleading them if you are trying to convince them that there is. 

This game offers nothing of that, or...if it makes you feel better, too little of it to matter. 

ALL the meaning comes from YOU as a player....NOT the actual game. 

 

Never ever said that this game was winnable. This is you trying to inject "virtue" or "meaning" into the game and generally not really grasping the actual arguments. 

Here is another one: Stop telling others lies about the nature of the game when they are obviously looking for something this game does NOT offer. 

The sky is blue.  What's your point?

Yes, there is depth TO ME. The Operators don't just "not matter" and they are a result of the story.

The fact that meaning comes from you as a player, and a player OF the game, mind you, is my point.

Regardless, if you just want to argue semantics and can't do so without talking down at me about it, I'm out.  I was trying to be positive, but clearly you just want to shove your nihilism down my throat.  You do you, dude.  I'll do me.  Noone is wrong when it comes to an opinion, so stop with the "it's a fact!" bs.  Noone needs that.  

[(PSN)BOSS_TPH76]

48 minutes ago, (PS4)Taishin_Ishu said:

The sky is blue.  What's your point?

The point is that the game is shallow and has no meaning for the things we do which in turn have no meaning for the game itself.

It is a self sustaining cycle which has little relevance to the game. Nothing in the game is affected by any of the choices you make OR the storyline itself. 

It is things to do for the sake of having things to do and choice for the sake of choice.

48 minutes ago, (PS4)Taishin_Ishu said:

Yes, there is depth TO ME. The Operators don't just "not matter" and they are a result of the story.

The operators only really matter for Eidolon hunting. Nothing else. They add something to the 'story' but the story exists separate from the game play. 

48 minutes ago, (PS4)Taishin_Ishu said:

The fact that meaning comes from you as a player, and a player OF the game, mind you, is my point.

And it is entirely irrelevant for the game itself. YOU have to find meaning in what we do and how we do it...the game just does what it does. That is almost the definition of "shallow". 

YOU have depth but the game has not. You have to invent your own depth. The game doesn't offer it. 

48 minutes ago, (PS4)Taishin_Ishu said:

Regardless, if you just want to argue semantics and can't do so without talking down at me about it, I'm out. 

It is not semantics. It is a fundamental reality, and indeed an essential mechanic in the current version of the game. 

48 minutes ago, (PS4)Taishin_Ishu said:

I was trying to be positive,

This has absolutely ZERO to do with "possitivity". 

Again....you are trying to interject "value" and "virtue" into the discussion and attribute them to terms creating some weird surreal straw man debate that I am not having. 

If you think shallow means low quality, negativity, unfun, or having little worth....then that is YOUR issue. Because that is not what shallow or lack of depth means. 

48 minutes ago, (PS4)Taishin_Ishu said:

but clearly you just want to shove your nihilism down my throat. 

It is not nihilism. It is what the game IS. This game does NOT offer meaning for the things we do or meaningful choices that have any relevance to the game itself 

48 minutes ago, (PS4)Taishin_Ishu said:

You do you, dude.  I'll do me.  Noone is wrong when it comes to an opinion, so stop with the "it's a fact!" bs.  Noone needs that.  

It is a fact though. And you saying "nuhuh" doesn't alter it. 

And sorry? Opinions are always right? What a load of nonsense. Opinions obviously can be wrong. 

 

[Axio.]

5 hours ago, (PS4)BOSS_TPH76 said:

And so the ONLY choice this game actually offers is the level of efficiency. 

Calm down, Simaris.

But for real, you need to actually calm down, These are forums, on the internet, for a game that is free to play. For a free to play game, it's crazy good. If DE had more revenue by making it subscription based, they could probably push out content more quickly... but they don't want to charge people to play this game. I don't know how I can make it more abundantly clear that you're looking for a game that isn't Warframe if you want your "choices to matter."

Plus, The Sacrifice is coming soon. We're not sure if the choices we made in The War Within are going to impact/influence this in any way. DE, however, has gotten better at storytelling over the last two years, so we should be looking forward to all of this.

[(PSN)BOSS_TPH76]

12 hours ago, Axio. said:

 I don't know how I can make it more abundantly clear that you're looking for a game that isn't Warframe if you want your "choices to matter."

This is exactly my point and has been from the start...yet some people get extremely upset when I say this. 

Seriously....you need to read and stop creating straw man arguments like you are saying something "profound" here instead of berating me for having made the exact same point consistently you are now berating me with. 

Like I have said several times now....but people seem to have serious issues with comprehending...the fact that the game does not offer meaningful choices has nothing to do with its quality or whether you can have fun or whether it is good...it is just the nature of the game. And like I also said before...it is a pretty essential mechanic for its current rendition.

And trying to convince people, like OP, who are obviously looking for meaning in a game, the choices they make and for the things they do in that game that this game is somehow deep, full of meaning and layers is simply telling them something that isn't there and isn't true. 

 

Quote

Plus, The Sacrifice is coming soon. We're not sure if the choices we made in The War Within are going to impact/influence this in any way. DE, however, has gotten better at storytelling over the last two years, so we should be looking forward to all of this.

I have never said it wasn't something to look forward to. Again this seems some weird defect a lot of people share here where they seem to read paragraphs that I haven't written and project them onto what was actually written. 

But I am going to say that future events that may make some choices (2 in the entire game) have meaning neither alters the fact that the game currently doesn't have any of them on any level of the game nor will it suddenly make the game significantly deep. 

Edited June 4, 2018 by (PS4)BOSS_TPH76

[Axio.]

10 hours ago, (PS4)BOSS_TPH76 said:

This is exactly my point and has been from the start...yet some people get extremely upset when I say this. 

Seriously....you need to read and stop creating straw man arguments like you are saying something "profound" here instead of berating me for having made the exact same point consistently you are now berating me with. 

Like I have said several times now....but people seem to have serious issues with comprehending...the fact that the game does not offer meaningful choices has nothing to do with its quality or whether you can have fun or whether it is good...it is just the nature of the game. And like I also said before...it is a pretty essential mechanic for its current rendition.

And trying to convince people, like OP, who are obviously looking for meaning in a game, the choices they make and for the things they do in that game that this game is somehow deep, full of meaning and layers is simply telling them something that isn't there and isn't true. 

 

I have never said it wasn't something to look forward to. Again this seems some weird defect a lot of people share here where they seem to read paragraphs that I haven't written and project them onto what was actually written. 

But I am going to say that future events that may make some choices (2 in the entire game) have meaning neither alters the fact that the game currently doesn't have any of them on any level of the game nor will it suddenly make the game significantly deep. 

I said you need to calm down, not that you're wrong. My point still stands that you need to calm the heck down about this. You're literally flaming anyone who tries to have discourse with you. Tone down the World on Fire.

Edited June 4, 2018 by Axio.

[(PSN)BOSS_TPH76]

1 hour ago, Axio. said:

I said you need to calm down, not that you're wrong. My point still stands that you need to calm the heck down about this. You're literally flaming anyone who tries to have discourse with you. Tone down the World on Fire.

Let me be crystal clear....and put it in bullet points...because I do not want there to be any misunderstandings here between us: 

• If you think I wasn't calm...then you have a very warped view of calm. (I am getting there though...because of bs like you are serving up here. So eventually you will be right.)  Instead...I have been very calm and patient for a very long time basing myself in arguments. 
• If you think there was flaming then you need to get a grip on reality. There has been no flaming by anybody. In fact...I challenge you to actually provide the quotes in ALL the posts for EVERYBODY (like you claim here) that constitute flaming in any meaningful way. Were we always nice and sugar and spice...hell no.
• If YOU think however that anything I said was flaming and things others said weren't....you obviously are tripping over your selective reading...illustrating your very one sided "intervention" here which IMO borders on white knighting. Because outside of that...the other possibilities are just that much worse. 
• If you think your post wasn't hostile, unwarranted and accusing....then you seriously do not have any call to tell others to "calm down" and tone down the "world on fire" because the flames you are seeing are the ones you hear in your head while reading the posts. 
• If you think your post wasn't extremely poorly worded and actually attacked me over the very thing I said...then you really need to work harder on your communication skills and how you order paragraphs. 

Now...if that wasn't extremely crystal clear for you and what I think of this post...let me condense it in one simple sentence: "you have no point and never had a point to begin with"
  

Edited June 4, 2018 by (PS4)BOSS_TPH76

[Axio.]

Look, more flame.

[(PSN)BOSS_TPH76]

4 minutes ago, Axio. said:

Look, more flame.

....thank you for proving my point about you

I rest my case. 

 

Edited June 4, 2018 by (PS4)BOSS_TPH76

[Mr_Winky]

Seems like he has been making a pretty calm and reasoned argument so far.  For some reason people seem to equate the fact that there isn't a lot of depth to the combat, or consequences for actions or decisions as a bad thing.  It could be argued that they are some of the reasons for any success the game has found so far.

[Axio.]

Just now, Mr_Winky said:

Seems like he has been making a pretty calm and reasoned argument so far.  For some reason people seem to equate the fact that there isn't a lot of depth to the combat, or consequences for actions or decisions as a bad thing.  It could be argued that they are some of the reasons for any success the game has found so far.

Sure, while it might be reasoned, there's absolutely no excuse to be so condescending and passive aggressive about any of this, to anyone. Every single one of his posts have been jabs against people. They've been insulting and insinuating, and that's what needs to stop.

[Talonflight]

Lmao. Everyone in here is thrashing this kid because he said he felt that the endgame is empty, yet its actually a complaint veterans have been making for years. If even a newbie like him can see it, then I'd say there IS a point to it. Even more ironic how they're thrashing him in the same posts that they're saying "Warframe has a GREAT community."

 

Endgame IS empty. Hoarding weapons, grinding MR, and gathering resources is fun and all, but its a poor substitute for the early-mid game experience, because early-midgame you had Quests, Starchart, and further content to play through and look forwards to; also because early-mid game the game is still "kind of" challenging. But once you hit endgame, nothing is challenging. You can solo sorties if you're truly in endgame. 

 

If ya'll can't even give the newbie credit for pointing out something that plenty of people have been pointing out for years, I fail to see how any of you are being remotely constructive on his post.

 

[GunRunnerX]

On 2018-06-03 at 9:11 AM, (PS4)Taishin_Ishu said:

You cannot simply state "Once you have basic equipment...blah blah no fun..."  That's not a fact.  I, having about 1000 hrs in the game, and over a year of gameplay under my belt, at MR20, still find a TON of fun in running pretty much any mission type! 

I can't compete with this level of happiness.  You should understand there's tons of people who feel otherwise.  Maybe you like watching paint dry for 20 MR but other people don't.  I can defeat any content in the game with no where near MR20, and nothing exactly special gear wise.  Even lvl 100 sorties I can complete mostly solo if needed, although no point when you can queue and brainlessly defeat them in a group.  Every mission is a cloned experience of another.

[bronzebonobo]

On 2018-05-29 at 12:18 AM, Th3SteAk said:

First off, I'm a new player that just started playing 2 weeks ago and after 150 hours I'm surprise by how empty the end-game feels. 9 frames, 18 weapons, and all the story mission finished later I found no aim and nothing to do besides being a treasure goblin that have collect addiction. I've seen some missopportunity on end game content that could and should be improve upon, and i would like to shed some light on it.

P.S. Feel free to correct my mistake, since im only 150 hours in I think I could possibly miss something.
P.P.s English isn't my native language, so the wording could be a little wanky
P.P.P.S. Edited my final thought cuz i think this is more appropriate
P.P.P.P.S. I do realize this game have very little hand holding and i love that. I still remember the first time I discover bullet jump on my own and how happy I was.

P.P.P.P.P.S. After seeing all the reply, all i can say is this is truely unfortunate. Cuz I think DE did a good job at making noob like me extremely invested into the game. However, I just feel blueballed that after making a pretty decent character with extremely nice mods on it. I have no where to use it or showcase it (on the leaderboard or sth). I want to feel rewarded by investing 150 hours in 2 weeks instead of sitting in orbit waiting for the new alert to pop up. Seems like most of the thing i suggested is either impossible or was done and failed. 

 

Sanctuary onslaught

A huge miss opportunity. This mode is basically a glorify elimination at this point. This mode reminds me of diablo 3's greater rift but a dumb down and less rewarding version.

- increase how many levels of onslaught we can pick (make it unlimited will be cool). 

-Increase the difficulty from the start (level 30 is way too easy and slashing through under power enemies could also be really boring.). 7~8 rounds and end with a hard boss fight lot more fun and challenging. It also added an element of RNG (good bosses or bad bosses). Which could make players get extremely excited when they get the right boss, and break the record. 

-Sanctuary specific mods (or other sanctuary specific upgrade) that can only be acquire from the mode. And it also supports the unlimited levels of sanctuary onslaught.

-Reward top 100 groups with exclusive gears.

Some may notice that I'm just suggesting the devs to add Greater rift from D3 to warframe. Funny enough, I am. Greater rift system is one of the greatest grinding system that's supporting the whole D3 game till this day. There are reasons why D3 veterans still occasionally return the game for the sole purpose of dominating the leaderboard again. It's not hard for people who reaches end game to gear up to a specific character to a specific build. However, when you added upgrades thats only specific to that game mode (For example: greater rift stones from D3)? It gives the grind a purpose.

Edit 1: I think the sanctuary idea needs more clearify. making it hard to cheese shouldn't be too hard for the DE devs to do. Moreover, require actual teamwork like healing and shielding timing and debuff timing will allow only the most skillful player to gain those exclusive gears. I feel like teamwork isn't really fully explored in this game. There is so many magical team work moment that can potentially happen in this game that wasn't required (one man army) therefore if wouldn't happen in a million years.

Edit 2: I do realize it may be extremely hard for people to understand what i'm trying to suggest when people never played diablo 3 as competitively as i did and fully understand how the system works. Diablo 3 have gems call Greater Rift stone that could only be upgraded by pushing up the Greater Rift level. For example: you can only upgrade your stone to level 80 when you reach level 80. If you go pass that the possibility to upgrade will be 1%. These stones give purpose to character, it can make a character either a tank/buff dude, tank/healer, dps. These stones serve as ways to make every single build viable on the ladder ( I once use a troll build to climb to top 1000). This is pretty much Riven mod but better since you dont need a godroll for the sake of improving your current weapon. I think implementing a new upgrade system for sanctuary onslaught similar to this system will give purpose for people to grind the level out and try to reach the top level. I'm low-key feeling like one punch man right now. I just walk through the level with shocking speed volt like its nothing, probably died 2 times cuz i forgot to press 4 or out of mana and thats it. There is no intense moment that i was looking for that could sabotage the whole run. 

Edit 3:  I think people are confused by why i said it was cap at 16 rounds. Here is what i found on Warframe wiki.:

Efficiency: the means to maintain a Conduit. Once efficiency reaches zero, the run will be over. The deeper the player progresses into the Sanctuary the faster their efficiency drops, capping at Zone 16.

• Efficiency Stimulus: Pick-ups, which increase the player's efficiency by 10%. The number of Efficiency Stimuli that appears starts at 4, which gradually decreases the deeper the player progresses into the Sanctuary, up until after Zone 15 after which they will stop appearing.

Edit 4: 

I defended Overwatch before and I’m gonna do it again here. Theres nothing wrong at borrowing somthing and than improve it. Apple did it with IBM products back in the day. PUBG did it with the Battle Royale (they copy the idea from a book). Every car company did it with their own cars. Heck, Disney doesnt own snow white, cinderella, and other classic cartoon movies.

 

Plains of Eidolon

Another miss-opportunity

Should've made the plain an open world where people can encounter other people. The fact that while I'm fighting this giant monster at night while there's only 3 squad member low-key kill the immersion. It is also the random encounters that make open world MMORPG great. After playing MMORPG for a long time. What i appreciate the most is when random people try to help out, or the other way around.

It just makes me sad that following encounters will never happen in plains of Eidolon.

-when you struggling with a hard bounty, a random guy decide to join and clear everything for you. Despite the fact he wont be awarded with any of your loots. You later DM that guy and you guys become friends.

-when you and your squad members are slowly withering down the sentient, more and more squad joins the fight. The tables turned and the boss was beaten down by 3 different squads that have never met. 

-After encountering this same guy in Eidolon while fighting the sentient for many times. You guys started to talk and become friends.

 

Final thought: i think making the open world or the upcoming Venus open world more socialize will be great. I also agree on what the post “The Biggest Rework” saids. I’m looking for more challenges, not to become a demi god. If I want that, I won’t invest money in this game. I’ll just go to Dark Souls 3, turn on cheat engine and invade unfortunate kids that have online play on.

Link to the post: 

 

These are just my noob thoughts, plz dont nail me on the cross and burn me. Thank you for reading 😉

I will be the first one to tell you there isn't an endgame in warframe. Only thing that comes close is prime farming i guess

[TheMandarin]

i think comparing warframe to any other MMORPG is just plain wrong, because it is not a MMORPG. also warframe is not the same as diablo either, because warframe is never trying to be diablo or will it ever be. 

after spending over 1500 hours on this game, i can sum up warframe in one sentence, farm kill and repeat. every single time there is a new update, it is just another frame or weapon you need to farm. and if it doesn't drop the first time, you repeat it until you get what you want. that's especially true for primed weapons and frames. and warframe no matter what others tell you, is build around that, and it is their business model. 

when the game first came out in 2010, the game had no content, many people like me and my friends were hooked to the game because it was simple, because it is care free, because it allowed me to cut people in half and listen to them scream. 

there was no leader-board, no ranking system, and no PVP so people will never complain about how you play or you suck at this game, or you do not have the best equipment for a certain mission. and that's exactly why i like warframe, to be honest, i like warframe because it is shallow, and i hope it stays that way. because there is not many shallow game around these days. 

Dota, overwatch, League of Legends, Tera, Black Deserts all of these games are too much for me. I do not have the time nor do i have the energy nor do i have the brain power to think about how my actions will affect the story. 

warframe is very much like Transforms and Marvels movies to me, these movies all are very shallow, but i like them a lot, because when i go have some entertainment, i do not want to use my brain power, my day time job as a financial analyst has already killed half of my brain cells, so when i get home at night, all i want to do is log into warframe and start shooting grineers and corpus into pieces. if i have good drops, i'm happy, but if i don't, who cares? 

but as for OP, i agree with 90% of the points he made, nothing you do in this game has any effect on the game itself, and the end game is empty. he is right. but as a veteran player myself, like i said before, i honestly like a shallow game that do not require me to use my brain. 

[giglyfoot]

On 2018-05-28 at 10:40 PM, Th3SteAk said:

LMFAO, here i am trying to give out suggestion to improve the game and you just straight up tell me to leave. XD

To be fair, your title says 'endgame' but you only listed sanctuary and POE; both of which ARE NOT endgame.

The real endgame is becoming the most efficient killer/ninja while soloing content (5+hrs survival) and looking good while doing it (fashionframe).

'Leaderboards' do exist; for missions at least. I haven't checked in awhile but I think it's everything from longest solo in a mission to fastest clear of other missions.

 

You've obvi confused this game like many other people. You've thought of frames like 'classes', when in fact frames are 'weapons'. The 'classes' are the operators/focus schools.

Each frame is 100% unique and you haven't really experienced  'end-game' until you have optimized all of them.

My own personal experience was with Loki. All the loki's I have ever run into are insufferably noob. I hated the frame. Declared I would never craft. Finally did only for MR, and now I can see why people love him. I still hate him, but I'll be taking the time to 'optimize' him for end-game because its something to do.

[GunRunnerX]

On 2018-06-03 at 9:11 AM, (PS4)Taishin_Ishu said:

DE has said themselves that they do not intend you to be putting in 150 hrs in two weeks' time.  They WANT this to be played casually.  The fact that people overendulge so heavily is not DE's fault.   Eating pizza doesn't make you unhealthy or lethargic.  Eating so MUCH pizza that you're downing 2 pies a day?  Yeah, that'll do it.  It's not the pizzeria's fault you overendulge though.

Really?  Comparing Warframe to Pizza?  This analogy is terrible on all levels.  This is why we don't have nice things, excuses like these.