Blueprints Need To Drop At Least 75%.

[Xylia]

Seriously.

 

Considering you have to get THREE different blueprints to make a Warframe... what's with their apparent 20% or so droprate?

 

Is that really necessary?

 

How many times do you think killing the same boss to get a Warframe is actually "Fun"? Especially when said boss has no good Rare materials?

 

Since 9.5.2, I'm on 7 Regor kills.

 

What did I get?

 

No BP

No BP

No BP

No BP

Chassis

No BP

No BP

 

Before 9.5.2, I've killed him probably a good 30+ times. What do I have?

 

Well, I sold a few when I was running low on credits, but I now am back up to 8 Chassis and 4 Helmet Blueprints.

 

I am just simply tired of running the same stupid boss over and over and over and over and over again. You "Fixed" the drop rates in 9.5.2? Yeah right, that's why now instead of 100% drop, with 90% Chassis, now we have 20% (or some such, that's just a wild guess on my part; I've heard of similar results from other players) to get anything, and we still get way more Chassis than anything else. Why can't you guys just change it to something reasonable, like 75% to get any BP and 33/33/33 to get the 3 parts? We have enough stinking grind in the game already, killing the same stupid boss over and over and over again makes us feel like we're spinning our wheels and not getting anywhere.

 

At least with material farming... if we need 1200 Rubedo for a gun and I run a mission and get 100, well.....I'm making actual progress. That, I don't mind so much.

 

But the "Need 1 of atrociously, ridiculously rare drop" needs to go.

 

This whole thing with Ash Systems being impossible to get is really grating on my nerves lately. It is currently climbing quickly up the list of the things I have against the game, and the things that is making me slowly lean towards not playing it at all. It sounds like a small issue on paper, but I've been trying to get this Warframe for nearly two months now and I still don't have it.

Edited August 17, 2013 by Xylia

[legionprobatio]

i kind of agree, the systems or whatever needs to be a tad higher, and so do the other parts but they dont drop 100% because people could make a lot of credits on those bp's

EDIT: equal percentages for each part? Are you crazy? Its like you've never played this game before

Edited August 26, 2013 by legionprobatio

[Xylia]

i kind of agree, the systems or whatever needs to be a tad higher, and so do the other parts but they dont drop 100% because people could make a lot of credits on those bp's

 

Derp make the blueprints sell for less then, derp.

 

Don't punish the players trying to build the Warframes.

 

And who really cares about 3500 creds when a T2 Tower gives you, what again, 20-50k? And it isn't like Credits mean much of anything once you get past the Newbie stage. "oooo I have 10 million creds... and nothing to spend them on".

Edited August 17, 2013 by Xylia

[Vunie]

nope its good the way it is you just want everything easy 

[Xylia]

nope its good the way it is you just want everything easy 

 

Well that's the most derptastic response I've seen on these forums.

 

Doing something once = you prove you CAN do it.

Doing something again, 2-5 times more = you've already proven you can do it, this is only proving you can do it consistently.

Doing something 5+ times more = yawn. This is getting old.

 

Making us kill a boss 10 times is no more easy than making us kill a boss 100 times.

 

There is no challenge, no proving, in repeating the same task hundreds of times. There just isn't.

 

Oh, and BTW -- Newer Players have to face a Lv46 Tyl Regor solo. What about Pre-U9 when Tyl Regor was in his 20s? Wouldn't you say that THOSE players had it "Easy"?

Edited August 17, 2013 by Xylia

[andboomgoestheydynamite]

nope its good the way it is you just want everything easy 

That is not even a valid argument.... He had good reasoning for his argument and you just assume he is lazy. If he works for 2 MONTHS to get a damn warframe that is absolutely ridiculous. You should not have to dedicate that much time to achieve such a task.

[Xylia]

That is not even a valid argument.... He had good reasoning for his argument and you just assume he is lazy. If he works for 2 MONTHS to get a damn warframe that is absolutely ridiculous. You should not have to dedicate that much time to achieve such a task.

 

Well, to be fair, I didn't spend every moment in Warframe farming Titania.

 

I did, however, do 2 runs here, 2 runs there, 5 runs that day, 5 runs another day.

 

And I still don't have Ash F---ing Systems.

 

Same BS with Loki. Bought him because he was only 75p.

[Buzkyl]

75% is too great of a chance, we still need some difficulty

 

30% for a BP seems fairer, which 10% for each ( 5% for systems, as it's ALWAYS systems) seems good as you shouldn't be able to build warframes so easily. But the chances just for a BP that isn't chassis is so low it's astounding.

[DarthRevan84]

The reason that i can see the drop rates are as they are is so it encourages players to make a choice. Choose to devote time and farm the BP and do those multiple upon multiple of runs against a specific boss (Barring the few that are obtained other ways) or buy them with platnium and play them now. I personally farmed every warframe in the game (Although i did rush Frost Prime and Novas 3 day periods cuz i was impatient) i None the less farmed them all, This was not very hard albeit time consuming it rewarded a greater sense of accomplishment for doing so. I believe the system is fine how it is now.

[fatpig84]

I prefer a token system

[DarthRevan84]

I prefer a token system

 

Token systems are a terrible cop out idea, this cheapens the worth of the blueprint/warframe itself along with makes farming something that is in itself supposed to be somewhat of a feat into trivial action. I don't understand this current mindset that everything must be easy to obtain or quick to achieve, Life isnt fair. Hard work should be rewarded.

[Buzkyl]

Token systems are a terrible cop out idea, this cheapens the worth of the blueprint/warframe itself along with makes farming something that is in itself supposed to be somewhat of a feat into trivial action. I don't understand this current mindset that everything must be easy to obtain or quick to achieve, Life isnt fair. Hard work should be rewarded.

 

Except here is a long monotonous grind, with seemingly no end in sight. Your only hope is to pray the RNG blesses you. You don't even know how much effort you're going to put in, you're just going till you get something.

[Xylia]

The reason that i can see the drop rates are as they are is so it encourages players to make a choice. Choose to devote time and farm the BP and do those multiple upon multiple of runs against a specific boss (Barring the few that are obtained other ways) or buy them with platnium and play them now. I personally farmed every warframe in the game (Although i did rush Frost Prime and Novas 3 day periods cuz i was impatient) i None the less farmed them all, This was not very hard albeit time consuming it rewarded a greater sense of accomplishment for doing so. I believe the system is fine how it is now.

 

What, the Material Farming (which includes neural sensors and control module, along with some plastids usually) and the 3.5 Day Wait Period isn't enough Platinum incentive or something? *rolls eyes*

 

30% for a BP seems fairer, which 10% for each ( 5% for systems, as it's ALWAYS systems) seems good as you shouldn't be able to build warframes so easily. But the chances just for a BP that isn't chassis is so low it's astounding.

 

You do understand that there are TWO RNGs involved, right?

 

1). Did he drop a blueprint?

2). If yes, which blueprint did he drop?

 

That's how the system works for resources (they outright told us this awhile back) and it would make sense that  warframe blueprints are handled this way too. But the problem is, it seems like they have systems tuned so low that you can easily get 20, 30 of the chassis/helm ones without getting any systems.

 

The first RNG needs to be higher: 1-2 blueprints out of 10 runs is absolutely ridiculous when you consider the rarity of Systems.

The second RNG needs to be equal across all 3 parts.

 

So 50-75% chance you get _A_ blueprint, and 33/33/33 on Helm/Chassis/Systems. That way you could actually reasonably get a Warframe in 3-20 runs.

[Xylia]

Also;

 

The problem is made worse by the ridiculous "Did you get a BP?"

 

If players are commonly going 0/20 Blueprints for systems, this means that the drop rate is probably about 5% for Systems. I wouldn't be surprised if they did something stupid like 60% Chassis, 35% Helmet, and 5% Systems. It certainly seems that way and I've seen enough screenshots and player testimonials to make me believe it is something to this effect, +/- about 5%.

 

But yet, myself and other players are commonly experiencing 0-2 blueprints every 10-20 kills. If we take the BEST median here, 2 out of 10, that is still a 20% drop chance on the blueprint. (I did 7 and got 1, that would make sense).

 

So....

 

To get Systems...

 

You have to "defeat" a 20% chance.

 

Once you do that, you THEN have to defeat another 5% chance.

 

What's 5% of 20, again? According to my Calculator, that is a whopping 1% chance.

 

So every time you kill a boss... you have a whopping 1% chance to get the thing you need.

 

Here's a hint for you: Ultra-Rare Mounts in WoW (Baron's Horse, Ashes of Alar, etc) are 1% to 1.5% drops, and people commonly go 0/300, 0/500, etc on those.

 

Is that REALLY appropriate for a WARFRAME?

[Lavanite]

I also find it stupid why systems are rarer than the other two. It's something we're going to use once each, so there's no point having other two as multiple spares by the time you get the systems. It's basically the bottleneck and you are denied of your warframe until you get the weakest link of the drop rate. Everything is slowed into its pace and you can only suffer grinding until then.

[arisaka]

I think what Warframe needs is dynamic probability for something like warframe blueprints. Let's say you have 5 Ash chassis, 3 Ash helmets, and 0 Ash systems. Assuming the probablity for each is 33.3% (just as an example), maybe the probability of getting a new Ash chassis would drop off logarithmically and level out at ~5% (when you have a lot of them, maybe 20), while the other two would increase to fill the gap. Given the above example, Ash chassis could be at 20%, the helmet could be at 25%, and the systems could be 55%. Because it's a logarithmic scale, the percentages would fall quickly when you have about 1-5 of the same thing, then level off.

 

Of course, the actual numbers can be different, so please don't poke holes in my idea based on the numbers.

[EinRyu]

Took me 3 Runs to get all of Ash's Parts the day 9.5.2 hit. If you compare that to the 317 runs for Nova (Yeah I counted all the BPs I had after I finally got the helmet, 317.) you're gonna end up getting it off easy still. Why? Tyl Regor is easy as hell for one. And the second is the fact that you aint even over 100 runs yet.

 

Either way, I find the drop system find and the grind can be rewarding in a way in the fact that you can get Orokin Cells from any boss and a few of those never hurt anyone. Then I also look at the "Grand Master" bit for your Forum Title and instantly wonder... are you THAT stingy? I understand that you want to feel a sense of accomplishment getting Ash, but for most people who farm Frames, they don't have that Platinum option. You. Do. If you're hating it that much simply buy the Ash frame or just don't bother, currently Loki and Ash are practically the same unless we're talking Ash's 1st skill which is ridics.

 

Either way these Frame BP Drop Rate threads have been increasing, well just RNG threads ingeneral are going up way too much. Starting to wonder if the community even bothered to pay attention to the fact that this game is RESOURCE based, the instant you see those Blueprints in the market you know you're in for a long trip if you plan to stay for the ride. I choose to stay for the ride, am I *@##$in and moanin every time it takes more then 20 runs for something? No. I did over 30 runs of Ruk today to get 1, get this, 1! Orokin Cell to craft my Ember and I'm not going on the Forums saying "Orokin Cells should be increased so that they have say... 90% Drop Rate because there too low!!!" RNG works in mysterious ways, deal with it.

 

Or you know, sacrifice a goat to the RNG Goddess and hope for good fortune.

[Ganpot]

As someone who has crafted every frame in the game with the exception of Banshee (including all Prime versions), I can understand both viewpoints of this issue.  On one hand, frames (and powerful weapons) cannot be quick and easy to obtain.  This is a F2P game, and that means the developers need to make buying things with platinum an attractive option.  If players could reliably find the parts for any warframe within a single day of playing, no one would buy them with real money.  Thus, DE would lost a lot of money, and possibly be unable to continue developing the game. 

 

On the other hand, I've been trying to get a Banshee Helmet for about 3 months now, and its rather frustrating to know that success is based purely on luck alone.  I'm never going to buy it with platinum (partly out of principle, partly out of frugality).  So the current situation doesn't benefit DE, and (somewhat) harms my enjoyment of the game, which could theoretically lead to negative consequences for DE in the long run (assuming the problem is widespread and severe enough, which in this case it isn't). 

 

So, how do we balance this?  My suggestion is a trade-in system.  If a player collects 20 parts for a single warframe or weapon, they can be exchanged for a part of that same weapon or warframe of the player's choice.  This means that players will still need to put in a lot of effort to build powerful weapons or warframes, but it also means that unlucky players can still work their way towards a reward.  

[Revel72]

+ Weapon parts and the BP's (Seer and Miter) I once farmed about 50 times Vor and then I decided to give up sold part of the Seer and blueprint (at the next run on Vor) Seer receiver I completely mad THAT IS SOME @(*()$ BULL S#&$ THERE! About 3 days flushed down from the @(*()$ toilet.

 

Now then I heard Vor and Krill drops the gun parts I became mad AGAIN that is bull S#&$. Annoying fight those two multiple times even I do agree they are easy. (Kill Vor and annoy a S#&$ out from Krill until becomes fully mortal) Would be nearly same if they both drops 2 parts and the blueprint that would make the grinding less painful. And drop rate shall be higher from now on 75% chance to get it when you have obtained others they will not be dropped to you (if you are soloing)

[Xylia]

Took me 3 Runs to get all of Ash's Parts the day 9.5.2 hit. If you compare that to the 317 runs for Nova (Yeah I counted all the BPs I had after I finally got the helmet, 317.) you're gonna end up getting it off easy still. Why? Tyl Regor is easy as hell for one. And the second is the fact that you aint even over 100 runs yet.

 

How many of those 317 Raptor runs did you do while it was confirmed to be absolutely BROKEN?

 

You can't count those, to be honest. Just like I'm not counting the 1-2 Titania runs I did here-and-there during that Hotfix that made all bosses drop absolutely nothing. When it was confirmed to be broken, I didn't keep banging my head against a wall like a retard, I simply didn't bother with the stupid thing because I knew it was broken. Wasn't it Einstein who said something like "Insanity is repeating the same action and expecting a different result?" or something to that effect?

 

And even then, if you got it in 3 runs you are ridiculously lucky and are purely the exception because I've talked to several other players who have similar results as me: 0-2 blueprints in 0-20 runs, and at least 2:1:0 of Chassis to Helmet to Systems. Yes you COULD get Systems on the first try, but it is kinda like winning the lottery.

 

 

 

Either way, I find the drop system find and the grind can be rewarding in a way in the fact that you can get Orokin Cells from any boss and a few of those never hurt anyone. Then I also look at the "Grand Master" bit for your Forum Title and instantly wonder... are you THAT stingy? I understand that you want to feel a sense of accomplishment getting Ash, but for most people who farm Frames, they don't have that Platinum option. You. Do. If you're hating it that much simply buy the Ash frame or just don't bother, currently Loki and Ash are practically the same unless we're talking Ash's 1st skill which is ridics.

 

In all my runs, I've never seen Regor drop a single Orokin Cell.

 

Also, did you consider the part where I'm trying to help out non-platinum people too? Wait, I'm not supposed to care about other players' ability to have fun in the game? I've seen MANY players complain about the ridiculous Blueprint drop chances and how many times they have to kill the same stupid guy over and over and over again. This is the type of thing that causes players (especially newbies when they're trying to get Rhino!) to quit the game because they'd rather just say "F--- it" rather than kill Jackal ANOTHER 50 times hoping a Systems will drop. In fact, this is the very thing that ALMOST made me quit the game BEFORE I bought my own Founder's Package. It had taken me nearly 70 Jackal kills to FINALLY get the Systems, and then even during that nonsense, it had taken me almost 20 Hyena runs (being carried by a friend because there's no way a newbie was able to legitimately get to Hyena at the time) to get the Control Module I'd need when the systems DID drop. So nearly 100 boss runs and I still didn't have the stupid thing? I'd have better luck getting the Ashes of A'lar in WoW.

 

I want to see Warframe succeed, and I really don't think that this ridiculous "Kill this guy 200 times to get a Warframe" model is very healthy for the game. People do not want to kill the same boss 100-200 times to get something like a Warframe, not when we have rare materials AND a 3.5 Day Wait Period to craft it in the first place.

 

As for ME, well, Why the *bleeep* am I playing this game when I'm expected to just pay plat for everything because the drop rates are just too ridiculous? Why even play at all, then? Actually obtaining him, and getting the materials to make him, etc is supposed to be part of playing the game.

 

But you know...a Skinner's Box only works when...

 

1). The thing you're offering is necessary, (Ash is hardly that)

2). Is reasonable to obtain, (Killing the same thing 100-200 times is definitely not any sane person's definition of "reasonable")

3). The thing you're asking them to do is fun. (Tyl Regor is hardly an interesting boss, or a fun one)

 

If it isn't those 3 things, then the Skinner's Box attempt will fail when they simply walk away from it instead of performing whatever task you're trying to get them to perform.

Edited August 17, 2013 by Xylia

[Tempera]

But you know...a Skinner's Box only works when...

 

1). The thing you're offering is necessary, (Ash is hardly that)

2). Is reasonable to obtain, (Killing the same thing 100-200 times is definitely not any sane person's definition of "reasonable")

3). The thing you're asking them to do is fun. (Tyl Regor is hardly an interesting boss, or a fun one)

I... don't think that's quite right.

[Xylia]

I... don't think that's quite right.

 

Maybe not the BEST analogy, but people love using "Skinner's Box" when discussing grind in a game, especially this game.

 

I'm saying that Grind only works in a game when the thing is highly sought after/necessary to progress, when it is reasonable to obtain, and when the actual acquisition method is actually fun, otherwise the majority of the players will say "screw that, it isn't worth it".

 

How many people in WoW (as in, % of the entire playerbase) bother to farm up rare mounts, for example? I'm willing to guess that % is in the single digits of how many people are willing to do it. How many people own the pet store pets that they keep selling? Well every time a new mount comes around,I see a lot of them during the first week after their release.

 

You don't have to twist players' arms to get them to buy platinum in Warframe; just offer something that looks cool and people will be all over that snazzy stuff. Keep the game fun to play, and offer cool stuff (the desert camo pack is awesome, I just wish I could put it on my Warframe because most Grineer weapons suck) and we'd be doing quite well.

 

However, making the game NOT FUN to play (farming the same boss 100+ times for an actual non-aesthetic item) only makes players question why they're still playing.

[Tempera]

 

Maybe not the BEST analogy, but people love using "Skinner's Box" when discussing grind in a game, especially this game.

 

I'm saying that Grind only works in a game when the thing is highly sought after/necessary to progress, when it is reasonable to obtain, and when the actual acquisition method is actually fun, otherwise the majority of the players will say "screw that, it isn't worth it".

Okay. Uh. I'm gonna just point out here that the Skinner Box paradigm still works perfectly fine when there's long stretches between rewards, or even when there's actively harmful things attached to it.

 

One of the methods Skinner used when originally designing the Skinner Box was attaching an electric current to the box, which was turned off when the rat pressed a lever. The rats soon learned to go straight for the lever. Hooray!

 

Anyway, you're demonstrably wrong. I mean, lessee.

 

Your first point, about the thing up for offer being necessary, is a primary conditioner. Something that's necessary to continue. An example would be the pellets that Skinner rewarded rats with.

 

The problem with using primary conditioners is that it's possible to achieve satiation with it- that is, it's possible to collect all the parts of a Frame, in the proper context. And once you've done that, you're done- you don't need to keep pressing the lever. You're no longer engaged with the game.

 

Grinding works off of the same mechanic. They don't want you to hit that satiation point, because once you've hit it, you're no longer engaged- you'll stop playing.

 

Of course, then it has to be carefully balanced, because after a point, players will disengage with the game enough to think "Why am I even doing this?". And that will cause them to disengage, too.

 

So, uh. Mostly, I'm just saying you're wrong. I agree with your overall point that grind isn't particularly fun, but you're completely wrong about how/when it works.

[Xylia]

Just to add.....

 

6 more runs:

 

1). No BP

2). Chassis

3). No BP

4). Helmet.

5). No BP

6). No BP

 

.......sigh.

 

Now I'm up to, what again, probably 10 and 5 Chassis/Helm? lawl. That's after selling a bunch of em.

 

DE just doesn't seem to understand we don't want to kill the same guy 100 times. Oi.

 

Run #5 also yielded five gallium in that run alone. If Neptune at least dropped Neurodes instead of Gallium, I'd at least be happy I'm getting Neurodes.

 

Grinding works off of the same mechanic. They don't want you to hit that satiation point, because once you've hit it, you're no longer engaged- you'll stop playing.

 

Except for the fact that when you DO get Ash, you have to farm the materials (if you didn't already) and then you have to build him. Once you have him built, you then need to actually level him. Yes, you're going to stop farming Titania once you build Ash, I'm quite sure. Myself, I'm probably never going to touch that stupid mission ever again because I'm so tired of it.

 

But once I build Ash, I'm going to need to level him to 30, right?

 

And if I like the Warframe, I'm going to keep playing it.

 

Me getting an Ash Systems isn't going to suddenly make me quit the game. If not, it gives me MORE reason to play (leveling him to 30 and/or any Forma if I end up liking the Warframe and its Powers).

Edited August 17, 2013 by Xylia

[Tempera]

Except for the fact that when you DO get Ash, you have to farm the materials (if you didn't already) and then you have to build him. Once you have him built, you then need to actually level him. Yes, you're going to stop farming Titania once you build Ash, I'm quite sure. Myself, I'm probably never going to touch that stupid mission ever again because I'm so tired of it.

 

But once I build Ash, I'm going to need to level him to 30, right?

Yeah. And then what?

 

I mean, really. There's roughly three forms of grind in the game right now:

 

- Grinding for weapons, warframes, and materials;

- Grinding for affinity for weapon/Warframe ranks and Mastery levels;

- Grinding for mods.

 

Grinding for mods is easily the most time-consuming thing there, but apart from that, grinding for weapons/Warframes is the next most time-consuming thing.

 

Not to mention that grinding for mods is really inconsistent when you're running high-level defences and the like for rare mods.

 

So, grinding for Warframes is the single easiest way for the devs to hook you into the game right now. By the time you start the game, you have thirteen you need to grind for, excluding Primes. Each Frame can take you hours upon hours to get, and there's a sense of reward once you get each 'frame, because yay, additional Warframes!

 

Really, it's a great way for them to get players hooked in. They've made the BP's rare enough that you're not likely to get them without spending hours upon hours grinding for them, and then you have to grind the mats for them. But you don't need so much that you'll never feel like you're making no sense of progression, unless you get really lucky.

 

It's a damn clever way for DE to disguise the fact that they've got nothing else for players to actually aim for. You can get all the Warframes! Then all the weapons! Then all the mods! Then you'll use them on... wait, S#&$, I'm a hundred and twenty hours into the game and there's nothing to actually do.