Making Umbra polarity not available is a good choice.

[DreisterDino]

Am 16.6.2018 um 15:47 schrieb Kurambik:

Nah they should be available for all especially considering you are investing ~200k endo. What I suggest is to have Vitruvians scattered around Lua maps and Derelict (kind of like how Ayatans spawn) and then apart from providing some lore, these can be used along with orokin ciphers from the vaults to craft Vitruvian forma that can be used on any frame. The layer of RNG will take care of the "power creep" that you speak of and not be a complete waste of 200k endo only to be effective on one frame

 

They are available on all frames, so the 200k Endo dont have to be for only one frame.

You have to think a bit about your builds and about what you wanna sacrifice to make us of the umbral mods, but like you see with the Valkyr build posted here, its totally possible.

Totally against this additional layer of RNG to add those polarities (if they add them at all which i dont like, they should do it in the normal way with regular formas). And btw, RNG taking care of power creep? Nah, it only takes you more time to get there or more plat to buy it from the market, so i dont think its taking care of that 😉

Edited June 18, 2018 by DreisterDino

[ShortCat]

On 2018-06-16 at 3:54 PM, Datam4ss said:

They should allow Umbra Polarity on normal frames.

No. This would make those 3 mods a no-brainer on Frames like Atlas, Chroma, Nidus, Oberon, Inaros, Valkyr or even Syran with as little investment as 3 Forma and 1 hour of playtime. This is like jumping over several stages of power creep at once. No thanks.

[Guest]

6 minutes ago, ShortCat said:

No. This would make those 3 mods a no-brainer on Frames like Atlas, Chroma, Nidus, Oberon, Inaros, Valkyr or even Syran with as little investment as 3 Forma and 1 hour of playtime. This is like jumping over several stages of power creep at once. No thanks.

And totally kill your build diversity as 3 Umbra polarities literally don't fit anything else. It is indeed a "huge sacrifice".

BTW your list of frames is not right either. Oberon and Nidus yes (Oberon a bit iffy, actually). Valk is doubtful. Chroma and Atlas definitely not (Umbral Fiber is a waste of a mod slot given how Armor stacks). And definitely not for Saryn.

The mods are a plain waste on excal because he needs neither health nor Armor. It won't help him live longer.

Also, DE did say in one of the Devstreams not all frames will get Umbras. So how do you account for the remainder?

[ShortCat]

9 minutes ago, Datam4ss said:

BTW your list of frames is not right either. Oberon and Nidus yes (Oberon a bit iffy, actually). Valk is doubtful. Chroma and Atlas definitely not (Umbral Fiber is a waste of a mod slot given how Armor stacks). And definitely not for Saryn.

The mods are a plain waste on excal because he needs neither health nor Armor. It won't help him live longer.

Whaat?

[Erayzu]

vor 1 Minute schrieb Datam4ss:

Also, DE did say in one of the Devstreams not all frames will get Umbras. So how do you account for the remainder?

Thats true, they said they want to link an Umbra to a specific quest or cinematic , they dont want to release an umbra warframe like its prime or a new one, they want to make it special.
So they are most likely choosing an umbra warframe on his existing lore that is heavyier then the other ones.
example: Mag umbra maybe because of the comic lore ? (dunno)
Rhino maybe because his prime has a lot of lore .. deep sh**
I hope i could explain my point of view.
[Just an idea nothing more! I obviusly dont know what is going to happen]

[Guest]

1 minute ago, ShortCat said:

Whaat?

To be super specific:

Umbra mods add HP, Armor and Power Strength. They also take up a mod slot which means nice things like power strength, range or duration have to go.

Nidus benefits from all 3 stats. I agree with you. He is probably the only true beneficiary from all 3 stats.

Oberon does benefit from all 3 stats, yes, but as his power adds flat armor, more armor for him actually isn't the wisest thing to use a mod slot for when it can be occupied by say, power strength, range or even Phoenix Renewal. Technically this is also a +11% ps dual stat but all other power strength mods give more. Arcane guardian worsens this diminishing return.

Chroma and Atlas add a lot of flat armor that scales additively with armor rating, making the use of Armor mods questionable (especially for Atlas with his invincibility frames). The diminishing return here is huge. The same issue as Warcry Valkyr.

Hysteria Valkyr isn't very big on survivability mods. Sure, she can benefit from all three stats but she won't be relying on health or armor a lot.

Saryn ... I think you have seen enough Saryns with no survivability mods at all. They are everywhere helping people farm on Hydron or ESO

Inaros has no use for Power Strength. I think we all know that.

Excal on higher levels uses radial blind as a CC to not get hit and the invincibility frames from slash dash. He relies on killing enemies before they reach him. Putting the armor and health on won't last too long. He IS a glass cannon.

Enough explanation for you?

 

[ShortCat]

1 hour ago, Datam4ss said:

Umbra mods add HP, Armor and Power Strength. They also take up a mod slot which means nice things like power strength, range or duration have to go.

+770& HP and 192,5% more Armor is a nice boost in survivability considerring high base stats. In addition to 66% Power Strenght with no downsides means you don't have to compensate for duration or efficiency loss from Transient F. and/or Blind Rage. In the end you do not sacrifice a slot.

1 hour ago, Datam4ss said:

Oberon does benefit from all 3 stats, yes, but as his power adds flat armor, more armor for him actually isn't the wisest thing to use a mod slot for when it can be occupied by say, power strength, range or even Phoenix Renewal. Technically this is also a +11% ps dual stat but all other power strength mods give more.

With a full set Oberon P. has 1337 HP (funny number, hehe) and his armor goes from 225 to 658, this is an innate armor increase of 433, not reliying on abilities. In order to get addition 433 armor just from Renewel you need over 200% PS alone. Now, the Umbra set also has an Intensify and Renewal provides additional 323 armor. With only the Umbra set Oberon P. ends up with 433+323=756 more armor on top of huge HP pool, just from those 3 mods. This is way more than you could get with Blind Rage + Transient F. and the build does not suffer huge efficiency loss. So, it is already a better alternative solo build. Even as a group buffer, just with U. Intensify and Transient you go over 200% PS and lose only 28% duration which makes it very energy and mod efficient. 

Umbra set + Rage + Transient F. (5 slots) cover your survivability and provide enough energy as well as more than enough PS costing you only some duration. Furthermore you have 3,5 slots + Aura to further customize him. Another combination is: U. Intensify + Power Drift ~ Intensify + Transient F. There you have the space for duration or range you would lose, according to your statement.

1 hour ago, Datam4ss said:

Chroma and Atlas add a lot of flat armor that scales additively with armor rating, making the use of Armor mods questionable (especially for Atlas with his invincibility frames). The diminishing return here is huge. The same issue as Warcry Valkyr.

Same issue as above, those Frames get a lot of waht they need with only 3 slots and no downsides.

The point is, with 66% Power Strenght U. Intesify is a valid substitute for Blind Rage, which ruins your effeciency and eventually needs to be conpensated by Fleeting, which eventually ruins your duration, which you need to compensate with Continuity.

1 hour ago, Datam4ss said:

Saryn ... I think you have seen enough Saryns with no survivability mods at all. They are everywhere helping people farm on Hydron or ESO

If you think "bore spore" Syren is the only existing build worth playing, then you are just a meta rider. No more, no less.

Edited June 18, 2018 by ShortCat

[Femuru]

they will more than likely NOT let regular/prime frames get these umbra polarities. however on that note i will strongly stand against them making more and more umbra stuff for god sakes excal umbra was brought out because no will will be able to get excal prime ever again marketing choice by throwing some salt on the 1% of ppl wit excal prime was technically better choice keep ppl happy. in the end if they make more umbra stuff i can already see alot more balance issues some ppl in the back not really saying much on the matter thinking wow i actually wasted money on it. DE if yur reading this if u follow another hype train and go crashing off the rails again by going wit a "series of umbra" remove yur prime access atleast feels like money bait at that point if there a point to it. if someone says "oh itll take 20 years for all umbra to release might as well have prime for now" less of a point to start a whole new series if we wont ever see them all (so just stick wit primes while yur ahead) rather than making better mechanics, combat, areas, modes, story quest, balance issues, bug fixes, hell maybe return better raids to make the game survive abit longer.

[aNNomaNd3r]

1 hour ago, Datam4ss said:

Inaros has no use for Power Strength. I think we all know that.

 

The problem is, For 3 mod slots you get 192% armour and 770% health, plus some almost useless power strength for 48 points, which if you're running steel charge gives you 30 points remaining for 5/6 slots, or 5/6 per slot.

compared to the alternative:

For 6 mod slots total: Steel Fibre, Armoured Agility, Glad Aeg (200% armour) Vitality, P Vigor, Glad Resolve for 840% health, which even if you forma the lot is 6 slots and 36 points, leaving you enough space for only two more mods, maybe a primed continuity plus rage and your build is full. The first option needs 0 forma.

You invest either in more slots for lower drain mods and have 5 free slots with insane EHP, or invest in a more restrictive build slot wise and have more points to spare with slightly insaner EHP.

Whilst the second build is slightly more survivable, has the added gladiator bonuses and doesn't require you to use steel charge in aura to make it viable, if you want a tank build I can't help but feel you get more mileage even with 16 points "wasted" on a umbral Intensify, particularly if you don't have primed vigor.

Whilst neither build is optimal, merely for illustrative purposes, the 3 Umbral mod build can be pretty strong if you're able to limit yourself in your remaining 5/6 slots to 5 points or less.

For Inaros if I had crazy Endo and credits, I would definitely be running the 3 umbral mods, as I can fit everything else I need in around the shocking 48 drain from 3 mods.

[Guest]

42 minutes ago, ShortCat said:

+770& HP and 192,5% more Armor is a nice boost in survivability considerring high base stats. In addition to 66% Power Strenght with no downsides means you don't have to compensate for duration or efficiency loss from Transient F. and/or Blind Rage. In the end you do not sacrifice a slot.

With a full set Oberon P. has 1337 HP (funny number, hehe) and his armor goes from 225 to 658, this is an innate armor increase of 433, not reliying on abilities. In order to get addition 433 armor just from Renewel you need over 200% PS alone. Now, the Umbra set also has an Intensify and Renewal provides additional 323 armor. With only the Umbra set Oberon P. ends up with 433+323=756 more armor on top of huge HP pool, just from those 3 mods. This is way more than you could get with Blind Rage + Transient F. and the build does not suffer huge efficiency loss. So, it is already a better alternative solo build. Even as a group buffer, just with U. Intensify and Transient you go over 200% PS and lose only 28% duration which makes it very energy and mod efficient. 

You realize Arcane Guardian is also a thing. I always bring it up in armor topics.

Oberon's health regen is also affected by his PS, just saying. You can have a bigger HP pool but you aren't getting it back as fast if you sacrifice strength mods for the HP and Armor. The argument is that you wouldn't put the Armor mod, just the health and strength one anyway, since you might as well slot an Augur Secrets which benefits his other 3 skills more.

42 minutes ago, ShortCat said:

Same issue as above, those Frames get a lot of waht they need with only 3 slots and no downsides.

The point is, with 66% Power Strenght U. Intesify is a valid substitute for Blind Rage, which ruins your effeciency and eventually needs to be conpensated by Fleeting, which eventually ruins your duration, which you need to compensate with Continuity.

Blind Rage stacks with Intensity/Umbra intensify and can take up the slot you would use FOR THE UMBRA MOD (not your intensify). Umbra Intensify does not stack with Intensify. For Chroma/Atlas/Warcry Valk, PS isn't just about adding armor, and the additional 22% from using those two mods means 2 mods less for whatever other stat you want. It's still less than Augur Secrets, which can take up one of the slots that the mod takes up. Hence, U.Intensify is a replacement only for intensify, not Blind Rage, unless your build only uses Blind Rage, which wouldn't be the case for frames aiming to max power strength.

So no, the trade off is still less power strength overall vs a bit more tankiness. You don't have to tank dead enemies and when your powers stop killing them, it's when duration and range in CC powers tend to win out, making all three mods questionable. That's all I need to say. That, and a lot of frames don't benefit from the 3 mods anyway.

42 minutes ago, ShortCat said:

If you think "bore spore" Syren is the only existing build worth playing, then you are just a meta rider. No more, no less.

I also have a build that is based on adding Toxin Damage with her 3 and regenerating health with her 2. It just turns Saryn into an over glorified gun carriage. There is no "tank" Saryn as she has no damage mitigation anyway. She is a glass cannon at worst and will survive a few hits at best.

If you build for Miasma, you might as well spore and toxic lash anyway. They benefit from the same stats.

Saryn is built around her spore now. Everything just helps you spread it or helps it kill faster (except molt). Sure, you can avoid building around it. However you simply waste away a huge portion of her damage.

Therefore, I already figured, other than Nidus, no other frame may gain unilateral benefit from using 3 such restrictive mods in tandem without some sort of trade off (since not all of them would use all three mods anyway).

If Umbra frames are limited to only a handful, then it would anger the people who prefer other frames (I for one have no love for Excal and prefer not to use him). Yet, if they make Umbra everything, then all the people who bought prime access would just feel shafted. DE has already said in their Devstreams not everything is getting an Umbra, and constraining (exclusively sentient) content to a few frames would be a divisive choice. Hence, if such content is actually released, Umbra Forma would be a legitimate option over a whole series of "umbra frames".

Because right now, the current content does not require the use of Umbra mods at all.

In fact, it would be nice to have Umbra forma, and have Excal be the only Umbra.

 

[Guest]

1 minute ago, aNNomaNd3r said:

The problem is, For 3 mod slots you get 192% armour and 770% health, plus some almost useless power strength for 48 points, which if you're running steel charge gives you 30 points remaining for 5/6 slots, or 5/6 per slot.

compared to the alternative:

For 6 mod slots total: Steel Fibre, Armoured Agility, Glad Aeg (200% armour) Vitality, P Vigor, Glad Resolve for 840% health, which even if you forma the lot is 6 slots and 36 points, leaving you enough space for only two more mods, maybe a primed continuity plus rage and your build is full. The first option needs 0 forma.

You invest either in more slots for lower drain mods and have 5 free slots with insane EHP, or invest in a more restrictive build slot wise and have more points to spare with slightly insaner EHP.

Whilst the second build is slightly more survivable, has the added gladiator bonuses and doesn't require you to use steel charge in aura to make it viable, if you want a tank build I can't help but feel you get more mileage even with 16 points "wasted" on a umbral Intensify, particularly if you don't have primed vigor.

Whilst neither build is optimal, merely for illustrative purposes, the 3 Umbral mod build can be pretty strong if you're able to limit yourself in your remaining 5/6 slots to 5 points or less.

For Inaros if I had crazy Endo and credits, I would definitely be running the 3 umbral mods, as I can fit everything else I need in around the shocking 48 drain from 3 mods.

Or you could NOT use the Umbra intensify, and instead just use the Umbra Armor and Health mods for a drain of 32.

Then fit everything else in the remainder using formas.

[aNNomaNd3r]

1 minute ago, Datam4ss said:

Or you could NOT use the Umbra intensify, and instead just use the Umbra Armor and Health mods for a drain of 32.

Then fit everything else in the remainder using formas.

Would this be an improvement though? The Umbra set bonuses seem really quite overpowered, even for primed mods. Going from 440 to 770 seems really excessive.

[Guest]

Just now, aNNomaNd3r said:

Would this be an improvement though? The Umbra set bonuses seem really quite overpowered, even for primed mods. Going from 440 to 770 seems really excessive.

You would still go from 440 to a higher value. Same for the armor. That, and you get to slot in mods that are actually useful in recovering HP, using powers and more.

There's no point in having loads of EHP if you can't recover it.

[DjKaplis]

I also like umbral mods as they are now. And if I want to I can still fit 1 or even 2 of them on sone of my regular setups without problems.

[ShortCat]

1 hour ago, Datam4ss said:

-snip-

I will blame the missunderstanding of the context on my bad English and leave the off topic build discussions.

Umbra set, even in combination of just 2 mods, will become a go-to solution on most Frames, if Umbra polarity is implemented into the game. This will create an unnecessary power spike in an already rampant power creep.

How DE will treat new Umbra Frames is unkown and your fear of Prime Access' deterioration is questionable. If you are concerned about the course of the game after Umbra's introduction, share your thoughts in a separate topic. And I will gladly aid your discussion, because  I am also wondering, where DE is going with those design decisions. However, universally available Umbra polarity right now, at present time, is neither healthy nor necessary.

[Guest]

7 minutes ago, ShortCat said:

However, universally available Umbra polarity right now, at present time, is neither healthy nor necessary.

You brought up builds first. I am simply a Naysayer to the fact that the umbra mods are the "perfect solution on all frames".

I personally opine that universal umbra polarities are perfectly healthy, and there is nothing unnecessary about them, because in the end they do what they do - fit a mod.

Would you forma your Loki Prime for Umbra Mods?

Edited June 18, 2018 by Guest

[LuckyCharm]

So based on what we actually have with those mods.. we must be expecting to come across more Tau enemies soon, since you get tau resistance, and sentient damage. Seems like it'd be completely idiotic to keep them as Umbra only if this is the case. I don't know about you guys but I reaaaaally don't want to wait another 8 years for say.. chroma umbra. Since we don't even have a chroma prime yet  let alone any other umbra frames. We've barely done half the warframe roster of primes and we're 4 years further down the track than when they first were released. This basically means for whatever additional enemies we get for those factions you're super gimped unless you use excalibur umbra. I don't like excalibur. He's boring to me, his kit is simple, and he doesn't at all mesh with my playstyle. I'd rather not feel gimped by being funnelled into playing frames and weapons that I don't enjoy if we do get new content that these mods are good against.