Why Exclusivity Is Important.

[-Kittens-]

*shrugs* Doesn't matter who shares it, and who doesn't. An opinion is still an opinion. 10 people or 10 million people doesn't make it a fact.

 

There's still 9mil+ subscribers last I checked and they obviously think it is worth playing.

 

1. You just countered yourself with your own counter-opinion, Read your two paragraphs.

 

2. What a skinner box is and does is absolutely fact. That WoW knowingly and purposefully uses several skinner boxes is also fact.

Edited August 21, 2013 by -Kittens-

[Xylia]

1. You just countered yourself with your own couter-opinion, Read your two paragtraphs.

 

2. What a skinner box is and does is absolutely fact. That WoW uses several skinner boxes is also fact.

 

1. Howso? You keep talking like it is a "fact" that WoW isn't fun, or it is "bad" or what-not. I'm merely saying that opinions are never fact, regardless of who or how many say so.

2. Name one Online game that DOESN'T use a Skinner Box of some shape, form, or manner. SOMETHING needs to keep you coming back for more.

Edited August 21, 2013 by Xylia

[Archistopheles]

I've said all that I need to say concerning the entity known as WoW.

 

I trust DE enough not to follow the same path.

 

I bow out of this thread.

[Ghobe]

#2 Large scale missions where the difficulty stems from the organization of players. In wow if you scaled the bosses down two 1-4 players, they would have been extremely easy, but when trying to manage 40 players it became a lot harder, and a lot more fulfilling.

Last I checked difficulty should come from the mechanics of the boss, not that you have trouble gathering enough people to do it.

[Xylia]

Last I checked difficulty should come from the mechanics of the boss, not that you have trouble gathering enough people to do it.

 

^^

 

This is the exact reason they stopped with 40-man raids in WoW and why 25-man raids are slowly dying (except for LFR).

 

HUGE numbers of people = NOT FEASIBLE.

 

Plain and simple.

 

Also, it is Hell to balance a fight and its mechanics.

 

I once read a WoW developer say that 5-man fights are SO much easier to balance than 10, or especially 25, player fights.

[Ghobe]

^^

 

This is the exact reason they stopped with 40-man raids in WoW and why 25-man raids are slowly dying (except for LFR).

 

HUGE numbers of people = NOT FEASIBLE.

 

Plain and simple.

 

Also, it is Hell to balance a fight and its mechanics.

 

I once read a WoW developer say that 5-man fights are SO much easier to balance than 10, or especially 25, player fights.

Well they are. 5 man only has what? 4 different variations of tank, 5 different variations of heals, and then...........it's been a while...but I'm going to guess somewhere in the 20s of dps choices. 160k variations vs 1.31*10^28 variations(5vs25). Now I could go into extreme details, about viable combinations, and ideal combinations and what not, but just a quick cursory glance is going to tell you that it's not as simple as just 5x, it's an exponential increase.

 

However, from 1 man to 200 man(yes a developer once made a boss that required that many), if the mechanics are still tank and spank, that fight is easy. Also, quite frankly, I much prefer an approach to boss fights similar to Vindictus in Season 1: Everything is soloable. Having a group just speeds it up or actually hinders you depending on your playstyle(counterattack play is a bit harder to pull off when you don't have aggro ;p). A fight like the Kraken that DEMANDS all 8 people, is great for clans, it sucks when you're a soloist or don't have a large enough group of friends. The usual response to that is "get a clan/guild/fc", and it's not that simple, clans already have their teams and they aren't willing to bring some no name in, no matter how good they are, until that content is on farm, or someone from the core doesn't show up.

[Xylia]

Well they are. 5 man only has what? 4 different variations of tank, 5 different variations of heals, and then...........it's been a while...but I'm going to guess somewhere in the 20s of dps choices. 160k variations vs 1.31*10^28 variations(5vs25). Now I could go into extreme details, about viable combinations, and ideal combinations and what not, but just a quick cursory glance is going to tell you that it's not as simple as just 5x, it's an exponential increase.

 

However, from 1 man to 200 man(yes a developer once made a boss that required that many), if the mechanics are still tank and spank, that fight is easy. Also, quite frankly, I much prefer an approach to boss fights similar to Vindictus in Season 1: Everything is soloable. Having a group just speeds it up or actually hinders you depending on your playstyle(counterattack play is a bit harder to pull off when you don't have aggro ;p). A fight like the Kraken that DEMANDS all 8 people, is great for clans, it sucks when you're a soloist or don't have a large enough group of friends. The usual response to that is "get a clan/guild/fc", and it's not that simple, clans already have their teams and they aren't willing to bring some no name in, no matter how good they are, until that content is on farm, or someone from the core doesn't show up.

 

Warframe Missions are a lot like WoW Scenarios: Scenarios are 3-man content that do not need Healers or Tanks. Having one is nice, but not required.

 

Kinda, like, you know, Warframe? Take any 4 Frames, stick em in a mission and they SHOULD succeed.

 

Unless.......it is Defense. Then you need Frost and/or Vauban lol.

[-Kittens-]

Populist opinion = win

 

Um, no.

 

it's also 7 million.

 

All I have to comment on that is 7 million people went to see scary movie 5.

 

As for games without the mouse and random smashy button mechanic with earned attributes: L4D 1+2, Halo 3-4, CoD, BF, ET series, DoW2: Last Stand,

 

games with directed returns to mitigate punishment including sorted awards with guaranteed returns: ME3MP, TF2, PS2, the other PS2, DoW2, BlackLight, etc etc (interesting to note that WoT completely abandoned their predatory model due to player dropoff)

 

WoW is a predatory game, that you enjoy it isn't really germane to the overuse of the skinner box.

[Xylia]

games with directed returns to mitigate punishment including sorted awards with guaranteed returns: ME3MP, TF2, PS2, the other PS2, DoW2, BlackLight, etc etc (interesting to note that WoT completely abandoned their predatory model due to player dropoff)

 

WoW has plenty of guaranteed returns on their rewards too.

 

Of course you wouldn't KNOW that if you haven't played it recently.

 

They combine a Random Chance with a Guaranteed Reward system, to give you the best of both worlds.

[Hayden11121]

This show off of stuff, rare items and other crap is for little boys and girls. Your efficiency and skill makes you what you are as a player, not shiny bits.

Currently anyone with Vauban, Frost, or Nova are one of the most efficient people in the game in almost every scenario with a press of a button.

 

 

Untill this gets sorted out, I would like rare items to show off I can handle myself in an extreme situation. I think that's why so many want Prime weapons. To show they dealt with the extremity that is RNG.

[Xylia]

Currently anyone with Vauban, Frost, or Nova are one of the most efficient people in the game in almost every scenario with a press of a button.

 

 

Untill this gets sorted out, I would like rare items to show off I can handle myself in an extreme situation. I think that's why so many want Prime weapons. To show they dealt with the extremity that is RNG.

 

I want Prime weapons because they're...

 

A). Mastery Points?

B). Better than the Non-Prime versions?

 

And yes, Vauban, Frost Prime and Nova being ridiculously difficult to obtain but yet so dang useful is... meh. I don't like how that turned out.

[Rottae]

To all of the people here who is discussing skinner boxes and that WoW is overusing em, Just look at warframe, aren't warframe overusing em to (Daily log-ins, Daily mission first rewards (I honestly don't know if there are one, just that it says it in the top screen after the first mission everyday), buildtime on equipment that keep you coming back because you need new equipment (that takes time to build) to get new shiney equipment. 3 examples I brought up on the fly)

This game needs what WoW has implemented that Xylia just mentioned, Guaranteed rewards with RNG inside em. (Guaranteed mod booster drops would be awesome, especially from bosses *Squee*)

Also as I mentioned in my last post, the games bosses need actual player skill involved, phases that can always be manipulated by the player (Vors shield should stop refueling when you have killed 3 waves of 4-6 dudes and when you have slain all the dudes in every wave, the next one spawns. Giving control over the encounter to the player while still keeping the fight interesting)
 

[Xylia]

To all of the people here who is discussing skinner boxes and that WoW is overusing em, Just look at warframe, aren't warframe overusing em to (Daily log-ins, Daily mission first rewards (I honestly don't know if there are one, just that it says it in the top screen after the first mission everyday), buildtime on equipment that keep you coming back because you need new equipment (that takes time to build) to get new shiney equipment. 3 examples I brought up on the fly)

This game needs what WoW has implemented that Xylia just mentioned, Guaranteed rewards with RNG inside em. (Guaranteed mod booster drops would be awesome, especially from bosses *Squee*)

Also as I mentioned in my last post, the games bosses need actual player skill involved, phases that can always be manipulated by the player (Vors shield should stop refueling when you have killed 3 waves of 4-6 dudes and when you have slain all the dudes in every wave, the next one spawns. Giving control over the encounter to the player while still keeping the fight interesting)

 

 

Yeah I love how people talk about Skinner's Box when they haven't played WoW since Vanilla... haha.

 

In WoW, you kill 6 bosses of a raid, each boss can drop something you can use. In Warframe, you need a list of like 50 mods that are *essential* but you don't know where they drop they can drop off of anything... bosses are double-RNG (did it drop a BP? if so, which one?), daily logins giving crap almost always, alerts almost always being money, and you can go a month+ before seeing any specific Aura coming up during a time you can play in a place you can do, etc, etc, etc, etc.

 

And they say WoW is full of Skinner Boxes? ha!

[-Kittens-]

Yes WF is overusing them, which is why they are actively changing many things.

[Gestalt]

One thing that WoW does awesome, though, is story. Especially lately. You probably haven't played it in a long while, but they've gotten really good at story-telling in-game lately. I'm awaiting 5.4 to see how exactly the whole thing comes down. And of course a few new items are always pleasant to obtain (though I won't be slaving away for it).

Wooooow... okay. Yeah.

I'm not sure how much they've changed since the end of WotLK (when I left for good), but uh... let's just say I would take the story (both plot and delivery) of WC3:TFT over any WoW story ANY day.

The few gems of WoW story-telling lie exclusively in the smaller/lower-level stories like that creepy teacher who lusted for his young student (the one in Duskwood), that are played out via ingame text items that players need to investigate. Anytime there's a huge dramatic in-game plot development, I cringe.

[VoidWraith]

I like how the OP is giving his opinions (while not well thought out) is being smashed. But, this is the internet, and I know how everyone has their "freedom" to say w/e they want. Keep in mind though, this is just a game. It is subject to change at DE's final say. While the DC and the other players may have some say in it, It ultimately falls on DE's vision for this game.

 

Play the game if you like it. Don't play it if you don't like it or if it's not going in the direction you want, or perhaps because it got boring. Who really knows, but if you are playing, just do your best and contribute how you can and stop worrying about "stats" and such.

 

If you are a hardcore/elitist player, then so be it. But just know you can't force your ideals onto others. It can only be shared and possibly be ridiculed or agreed upon.

 

Now back to the OP's topic... While his ideas of a more interactive lobby seems interesting, atm it is not viable.

Showing off your equipment is kind of pointless. If you do want to help out people, then you can form a guild and recruit whoever in to extend your "helping hand" to those you feel are not as superior to you. With the way they have done things now, your limit is 1k members. Then you can create sub-guilds and alliance with the main guild so that it would be even bigger. Then so-on, so-forth

 

The "exclusivity" isn't really that big of a deal. The closed beta players have it.... The people who pay extra money to become a founder have it too. The people in clans/guilds have it too. There are different kinds of "exclusivity". To me it's pointless and doesnt affect me in anyway.

 

I've thrown my 2 cents anyway, now it's time to enjoy the game with my guild members. Bye.

[SerosterPrime]

I raided (but did not lead raids) during "vanilla" World of Warcraft, and led 10-player raids in Burning Crusade, (and led a guild during) Wrath of the Lich King, and Cataclysm. I stopped playing during Mists of Pandaria.

 

I don't think exclusivity of content is important.  I don't think that rewarding people for logistics in a game about shooting things is important. I don't think being able to parade your e-peen in front of the rest of the community is important either.

 

Just my $0.02.

Edited August 21, 2013 by Kempner

[Xylia]

Wooooow... okay. Yeah.

I'm not sure how much they've changed since the end of WotLK (when I left for good), but uh... let's just say I would take the story (both plot and delivery) of WC3:TFT over any WoW story ANY day.

The few gems of WoW story-telling lie exclusively in the smaller/lower-level stories like that creepy teacher who lusted for his young student (the one in Duskwood), that are played out via ingame text items that players need to investigate. Anytime there's a huge dramatic in-game plot development, I cringe.

 

They changed a LOT.

 

More Cutscenes, zones that change while you quest through them (better than Icecrown did), 3-man scenarios that do some storytelling, the Loremaster gives you large pieces of Lore in Pandaria through awesomely voice-acted dialogue (the same guy who did Winnie the Pooh!), etc.

[Ghobe]

If you are a hardcore/elitist player, then so be it. But just know you can't force your ideals onto others. It can only be shared and possibly be ridiculed or agreed upon.

I hate this argument so much. It's not ok for an "elitist"(good player looking for a challenge) to push their ideals on everyone else, but that same "elitist" has to choke down and just deal with every suggestion coming from the casual crowd. And what do they come forward with after that? "let's leave it to a majority vote", yea...because casuals make up 90% of the playerbase...I'm sure that's balanced way to go about it. Quite frankly as an "elitist"(which is about the nicest thing I've been called in the past month), I love to be challenged, and I love to have something not everyone else does. It's a great feeling, especially when it's something supplied by the developer. I hate games where everyone can do everything because it's "just challenging enough". When the reality is, it's just putting the square box into the square hole....while I want something where you put the square box into the square hole and the square hole is dangling on a piano wire over a lake of lava defended by a pair of dragons with tripwires attached to c4 everywhere, and the hole is only open for 0.2 seconds of every 23 seconds. But if I got that, within moments of it being released there will be an immense outcry from the casual crowd that "it's too hard" because they have to actually apply skill, thought, reaction time, etc...and god forbid there be a reward behind that, whether it's aesthetic, a title, an achievement...and if the reward actually affects gameplay? Oh lordy, DE would have to take the forums down to relieve pressure. I mean hell, could you imagine the outcry alone if in order to make the Volt frame you had to successfully complete the Clan dojo's obstacle course in under 1 minute? Hell in under 2 minutes? I bet there'd be outcry even if it was in under 10 minutes(the casual section of my clan can not complete the course in under 10 minutes, moving platforms so hard apparently....as I jump over 4 at once). I hate that games are completely controlled by casual crowds. "If you want difficulty go play dark souls"....dark souls is not hard. "Then you've never played it", actually I have. "Well the game shouldn't be balanced around you", that's not what I'm asking for, I'm asking that content exists that is designed for us, rather than you for once.

 

...I'm sorry I appear to have ranted...but my point remains. Casuals get everything, "elitists" must suffer.

[Xylia]

RE:Ghobe:

 

There are ways for people looking for a "challenge" to face challenges: You can take mods off, you can use weaker guns.

 

There's no way to make the game any easier once you get the best weapons, and sometimes trying to get those weapons means doing things you can't handle. Not every Casual around can handle T3 Defense, for example. In fact I bet very few can.

 

How many casuals can solo Pluto?

 

Most games have OPTIONAL challenges you can partake of, IF YOU WANT.

 

Warframe doesn't, other than T3 Void. Want a Control Module? Have fun in Europa! Can't do Europa yet? Sucks to be you... have fun staying with that starter frame until you can.

[Ghobe]

You can take mods off, you can use weaker guns.

 

 

especially when it's something supplied by the developer

I don't consider removing the tools the developer gives you a challenge(at least not the in the sense you're applying, removing your shield as a Fiona on Vindictus, that is an acceptable challenge that involves taking a tool away).

 

Also...

 

 

if the mechanics are still tank and spank, that fight is easy.

 

I'll tell you right now. I do not play any frames where you spam 4 to win, I don't even use energy setups. I've recently started using the Ogris yes, but just like my Gorgon, Boltor, Ignis, etc...it's going to go onto the shelf once I hit rank 30 with it(it's 27 now, so not much longer). I can honestly say that I have never been truly challenged by anything in Warframe. You can say "go do pluto solo with an unranked frame then", but I'm not going to do that, the content isn't built around that and it's apparent. Just because you can be one shot does not mean the content is difficult. The Jackal's sticky grenade shot one shots you every time, is he difficult? The answer is no. Just because the enemy is a bullet sponge and takes all your ammo to drop, does that make it difficult? Again, the answer is no. It isn't numbers that make a fight difficult, it's the mechanics. And you should know this is my point more than anyone else Xyl. I have many friends, most of which I wouldn't rate above casual, a few I would rate mediocre at best, and then I've got a couple others I'd consider pro....right now I can only see the difference between casual and everyone else...I can't see the difference between mediocre and pro, and mind you, there's a lot of shades between those two ratings.

Edited August 21, 2013 by Ghobe

[Xylia]

I'll tell you right now. I do not play any frames where you spam 4 to win, I don't even use energy setups. I've recently started using the Ogris yes, but just like my Gorgon, Boltor, Ignis, etc...it's going to go onto the shelf once I hit rank 30 with it(it's 27 now, so not much longer). I can honestly say that I have never been truly challenged by anything in Warframe. You can say "go do pluto solo with an unranked frame then", but I'm not going to do that, the content isn't built around that and it's apparent. Just because you can be one shot does not mean the content is difficult. The Jackal's sticky grenade shot one shots you every time, is he difficult? The answer is no. Just because the enemy is a bullet sponge and takes all your ammo to drop, does that make it difficult? Again, the answer is no. It isn't numbers that make a fight difficult, it's the mechanics. And you should know this is my point more than anyone else Xyl. I have many friends, most of which I wouldn't rate above casual, a few I would rate mediocre at best, and then I've got a couple others I'd consider pro....right now I can only see the difference between casual and everyone else...I can't see the difference between mediocre and pro, and mind you, there's a lot of shades between those two ratings.

 

See, that's the problem though: The game is absolutely brutal on casuals and newbies (I'm doing a Newbie Account Test right now actually! I ran into an Apollodorus mission on Mercury where there were 2-3 Commanders in each room which was simply ridiculous for a newbie with an unmodded Braton because Rifle Mods do not drop anymore whatsoever), but yet once you get that awesome stuff... the numbers make it so the game is easy.

 

People asking for the game to be easier want to actually be able to play the game and not get knocked flat on their butt every 10 seconds whenever something Lv40+ looks at them wrong because of the ridiculous number syndrome.

 

People asking for the game to be harder, have the best stuff and aren't finding Lv60 stuff to be a challenge.

 

Make the game harder? Well, you just made it impossible for the casuals/newbies to get up to the "Solo Pluto" levels. Make the game easier? The pros aren't going to see much difference, they ALREADY kill stuff effortlessly.

 

So you tell me which we should do.

 

Now, reducing the ridiculous number syndrome and ridiculous respawns and putting enemies in that take actual skill sounds awesome and all........but easier said than done.

Edited August 21, 2013 by Xylia

[Ghobe]

So you tell me which we should do.

 

Now, reducing the ridiculous number syndrome and ridiculous respawns and putting enemies in that take actual skill sounds awesome and all........but easier said than done.

There are quite a few issues that need addressed, yes. We could solve these types of issues by having new players start out with Redirection, Vitality, Serration, Piercing Hit, Hornet Strike, No Return, and Sundering Strike. The mods are there for them then. Those are the basic mods needed to make every slot viable, the rest is just bonus.

 

Right now, for the setup I use(Serration 2, Hornet Strike 4 and the various rainbow mods attached), the game feels "about right" numbers wise at the mid 40s of levels for soloing(note: that means not 4 players) without potato/forma'd gear. Note: that also means for non armor-ignoring weapons. The damage and armor systems are being revamped, so we'll see where they go with this, but hopefully it's some place good hm?

 

As for all the numbers talk you gave me. Something to understand: the content in the game right now is not balanced for a player that has Serration 10 and the rainbow and crit mods maxed, that's all for later content some time after Sol. Though even then, I'd personally love it if the bosses scaled with the people in the game, so if you do walk in with that super decked out Supra, the boss is scaled to withstand it. This of course removes the moment of "oh my god I oneshot ____", but I kind of feel like that's a moment that shouldn't really exist when referring to bosses either.

 

As to it being easier said than done to implement skilled enemies.....duh. I know it's not a simple flag you turn on, it's a pain in the &#! to code it properly. However, the game feels so much more rewarding, and it's not like these guys aren't working fulltime on it. If this was some silly little college project where they only worked maybe 12 hours on it per weekend, that's understandable, but these guys are working 40-80 hours a week, and when I say guys, I mean that s. I'm part of a project and I'm doing the majority of coding for that project, but I can't focus on it full time, and I don't really have others to lean on to get the code pushed out quicker either. It takes a lot of time, and it's kind of like shaving off a layer a week, but even with how inexperienced I am in this field, I know that if I could sit down and work on one enemy for 40-80 hours a week, I could have a real AI powering it by the end of that first week, and heavily polished/tested by the end of the second. Why does it take these guys 3+ months? Hell my lone artist/modeller was able to go from scratch to a fully functioning new unit in a week with his limited schedule, so you can't even tell me that.

 

....I'm over here on a tangent again, but hopefully the point got across.

Edited August 21, 2013 by Ghobe

[Xylia]

I understand what you're saying Ghobe, I really do...

 

I'm more worried about Newbies (I seem to be one of the few who are) because.....

 

Playstation 4 is coming soon!

 

With it, we will get a large rush of newbies that will......what, get their asses whupped on Mercury and go "this is lame..."

 

Or they'll get to Earth and be using Bratons and MK1s with no Damage Mods going "I wish I could get more than 5% of the total Damage Done...." and they feel like dead weight.

 

Dunno about anybody else, but I hate feeling like a fifth wheel in a group. It isn't fun, and I hate being carried. Giving everybody all those mods to start with, I think is a little extreme; I'd rather see mods actually freaking drop, rather than DE apparently wanting us to use our pistols for everything because no rifle mods ever drop.

[Ghobe]

Well here's the thing. I still have clanmates, with the map fully unlocked, with over 20 runs in the void, that still have yet to see Hornet Strike drop. This being an essential drop, kind of ridiculous(over 250 runs). Having had this happen, she can pretty much expect to NEVER use a secondary beyond level 30 content. Having it from the beginning, at the very least you can apply cores to it.

 

Also by the time you get to Earth, I'm sure you've either bought or crafted yourself a new weapon...even if it's not a big amazing toy, you've got something better than the starter set, unless you rush straight there and are just stubborn about it.

 

Also, maybe I'm different from most people, but I solo'd/only played with friends until level 30+ content, which even then I only went online when I felt it necessary(defense/mobile defense/assassination). Heck I still follow that playstyle, only going online when I do d/md and don't have a friend available(note: a).