Why Exclusivity Is Important.

[Xylia]

@Ghobe:

 

Why do you need to show stuff off to other people, though?

 

Why can't the sense of accomplishment be your reward?

 

Do you REALLY have to prove how "leet" you are?

 

Okay, even if you take an unranked MK1 and solo Ambulas with it, well ok, you must have some magical mad skill or something. And your point, is? You want extra little shiny rewards to prove you did it?

 

I don't get this infatuation with having to prove to the world you did something, rather than just doing it, succeeding, and feeling good about yourself. I remember older MMOs, where people looked down their Seattle Space Needle noses at everybody else. It is bad for the community and the environment when you have Elitists using "Special Snowflake Gear" to show off and brag, boast, etc. "Haha look what I have but you don't!"

 

Some of my worst moments in online gaming involved these types of people who feel the need to brag about how awesome they are and how everybody else sucks.

 

If you're good, well, hey. That's nice and all. But don't go walking around with an attitude. Handing players like that special little shinies only makes them even MORE Elitist... "OMG you don't have _____? You suck, then!"

 

It gets even worse then more powerful weapons and armor are given in games like those to people who did ridiculous stuff to get them. They already proven they have more skill than anybody else, let's reward them with ridiculously overpowered gear, too! I remember the days when WoW handed people overpowered crap for doing something <0.1% of the total playerbase ever did. Wanna know what those players did? They strutted around in town with this junk on (some of which was obtained through hacking/glitches/etc) and they proceeded to look down their nose at all the people (99.9%) who didn't have said stuff like they were lesser human beings because of it.

 

And of course when it came to doing any sort of group content, these overpowered players would point at their damage meters and laugh, because they were handed overpowered crap just for being elitist.

 

I'm OK with pure Aesthetic Rewards, but NO NO NO NO NO NO to actual stat weapons, warframes, etc, for that kinda thing.

Edited August 22, 2013 by Xylia

[Wiegraf]

... And now that I think about it, next update should be adding Achievements.

 

Wouldn't that actually make this point moot if anyone can just look up your profile and see the achievements?

[Ghobe]

I want my golden sticky star Xyl :'(

 

Seriously though. As long as it's not content that requires 10/25/40/200 players to even think about doing it, and it comes down to just personal skill level, I have no complaints with it, even if it gives stats. I tell you right now, some of the most infuriating moments in my gaming life, is when I know I completely outskill my opponent, but I still can't beat them(see: wow pvp, mag vs rhino, etc). And to help elaborate on that allow me to explain a situation related to warframe here...

 

Now this is related to dueling, which the game isn't centered on, blah blah blah. But I dueled one of my clanmates with my Mag vs his Rhino. I had my Mag setup to completely stunlock and bypass armor(akbolto with stunning speed, stopping power, no return, hornet strike, gunslinger, quickdraw), I even had pull equipped and ready for spamming. I completely stun/knock locked him for well over a minute and a half, trying to chip away at him. I made one little slip up and let him grab ONE energy orb. He immediately stomped and I got oneshot from full health and shields, he still had over 75% health.

 

Now you can argue all you want, but the fact that I had full control over him for 90 seconds and could barely hurt him, while he had control of his character for literally 1 second and managed to oneshot me...how is that fair? It's not. It may have been frustrating to deal with my strategy, but overall, he won, without much effort involved. That rhino is what I like to call the casual crowd, they have 0 skill, and they win incredibly easily. That mag? Elite level player that lost because everyone needs to have access to everything apparently, regardless of skill level.

 

Now am I saying that EVERYTHING needs to be locked behind these barriers? No. Volt behind the speed run barrier? Sounds fair to me. After all, in order to play Volt at his best, you need to be able to play at high speeds. Does that mean Rhino players need to have a barrier where they stand around picking their nose and then hit 4 to win? Not really. Should clantech weaponry be behind some kind of barrier? Probably. Should vandals? Yes. Should primes? Yes. Primes are imo, the best way to show off something. Right now they're not really attached to anything but rng, but if they were tied to some sort of achievement and all they do is provide the extra gold stuff to the weapon/frame, that's fine. That's my sticky star. I can live with that.

Edited August 22, 2013 by Ghobe

[whitejackale]

 

But I dueled one of my clanmates with my Mag vs his Rhino. I had my Mag setup to completely stunlock and bypass armor(akbolto with stunning speed, stopping power, no return, hornet strike, gunslinger, quickdraw), I even had pull equipped and ready for spamming. I completely stun/knock locked him for well over a minute and a half, trying to chip away at him. I made one little slip up and let him grab ONE energy orb. He immediately stomped and I got oneshot from full health and shields, he still had over 75% health.

 

 

You were doing something wrong because I can take down a tanked out rhino almost instantly with my kunai.

[whitejackale]

I'm not against content that supports more than four players. I'm against requiring it or making it the only way to get certain items. When I sit down to play Warframe, I'm not looking forward to a rousing session of trying to wrangle, coordinate, and choreograph a fight with 39 other people. Then I don't want to spend an hour fighting the same boss.

Every aspect of the game would need recalibrated. How is your boss fight going to be difficult when you've got 15 Trinitys spamming Bless? All the weapons and Warframes would need to adjusted too since the game is optimized for four players. People are already complaining about power creep... How much worse would that be when your frame needs to be strong enough to stand up to an enemy strong enough to require 40 attackers? Should they eliminate clan categories of less than 40 people because what could you do with 10 people at that point?

I'm an adult with a job. If I'm lucky, I get maybe four good hours of gaming a night. I don't play WoW or similar games BECAUSE I know you have to put in more time than I'm willing to get a good enough character to apply to a guild to maybe get the chance to fight a monster you only have a chance at after playing for six-months straight. So again, I don't want to spend a huge chunk of my life preparing for a fight only to have it go badly because three DPS people have a bad connection and our shaman... Er... I mean Trinity got drunk and forgot to equip their Blessing mod.

Then there's the issue of "do we make it so 40 randoms can kill this guy, or do the players need to use the best gear available and coordinate?" That will also affect scaling. Make it so it requires a group of elite players, and you'll shut out the people who don't have maxed everything. Make it so it can be tackled by 40 pubs, and the elite players will still complain about power creep.

So no thanks. I fully believe that something should be added for players who have maximized this game's utility, but large-scale raids is not the answer.

1) I agree with you on it being a bad design choice to create content that can only be accessed by large coordinated groups while leaving the majority of the community with no way of getting those items. I support giving players various options for getting the same items. But a coordinated group of 40 players should be the first to have access to the coolest items, while the more casual players should be given access to those items at a later date.(That is currently what DE does. They create limited weekend events in which certain players get really cool items, and then they will offer those items to the rest of the community at a later date)

 

2) With regards to it being a lot of work to calibrate content for larger groups. That is not that big of a deal. People are already getting paid to handle such things.

 

3) With regards to your time constraints of 4 hours. That is plenty of time to complete content that involves larger groups. I have seen 20man content in other games that only takes 30-60 minutes to complete, while I have also seen 5man content that can take over an hour to complete. It all comes down to the choices that developers make when they introduce such content.

 

4) With regards to random occurrences ruining your gaming night. That is not a problem that solely affects content that involves larger groups. You could be playing with four friends and all of a sudden they can start having connection issues and then you have to find something else to do

 

5) Lastly, why does DE have to introduce 40man content? They could create 8man/16man content that is enjoyable without going to the extremes of having to coordinate 40 people when trying to complete a mission.

Edited August 23, 2013 by whitejackale

[whitejackale]

I like how he prioritizes. Games first, real life and sleep in between gaming sessions.

[Ghobe]

You were doing something wrong because I can take down a tanked out rhino almost instantly with my kunai.

Could it be that I was using Hornet Strike 2 and not 10? That I wasn't using the rainbow of elemental mods? Not using crit?

 

I'll tell you right now, I couldn't miss(how do you miss a target that can't move after all?), and I burnt through 200+ bullets.

Edited August 23, 2013 by Ghobe

[whitejackale]

Could it be that I was using Hornet Strike 2 and not 10? That I wasn't using the rainbow of elemental mods? Not using crit?

 

I'll tell you right now, I couldn't miss(how do you miss a target that can't move after all?), and I burnt through 200+ bullets.

Iet me give a quick explanation of how the damage against a rhino would work. To keep things simple, lets say that the rhino you are hitting has a 1,000 iron skin, 1,000 shield, and 1,000 health. Only health has armour applied to it, but that doesn't matter because you are using a bolto, which ignores armour.

 

So here are the mods that you should probably use on an offhand weapon that ignores armour.

Barrel Diffusion: 120% multishot

Hornet Strike: 220% damage increase

Convulsion: 90% electric damage

Heated Charge: 90% fire damage

Gun Slinger(depends on weapond): 72% fire rate

Deep Freeze: 60% freeze damage(Double damage on shields)

Ice Storm: 40% magazine capacity and 40% freeze damage(Double damage on shields)

Lethal Torrent: 60% multi shot and 60% fire rate.

 

So bolto base damage is 25, fire rate is 6.83, base clip of 15, and reload speed of 1.3 seconds. Not going to take crit chance into account because the weapon has very low crit rate. 

(25 base damage)(3.2 hornet strike)(2.2 barrel diffusion)=176 new base damage per shot on average.

(176x1.9 convulsion)+(176x1.9 heated charge)+(176x2 freeze damage)=1020 damage per shot on average on iron skin and health per shot.

                                                                                                                =1372 damage per shot on average on shields.

Without even taking into account fire rate increases, you are already doing close to 7k dps on health/rhino skin and close to 10k dps on shields. I did not take into account other damage increases, reload times, mitigations, or head shots, because this numbers are enough to give an understanding of how fast you can drop a warframe with a fully modded weapon.

 

Hornet strike and barrel diffusion are very important because together they give you around 700% damage. I won't get into how fire rate increase affects dps because then I would have to cover time to empty clips and reload times.

Edited August 24, 2013 by whitejackale

[-Kittens-]

I'd like to thank the two of you for delineating in exact detail why this notion and topic are astoundingly obtuse, and why DE should have never bothered committing completely wasted  time and money to pvp in the first place.

[whitejackale]

I'd like to thank the two of you for delineating in exact detail why this notion and topic are astoundingly obtuse, and why DE should have never bothered committing completely wasted  time and money to pvp in the first place.

 

That PvE-only players are against PvP content is irrational. PvP content requires nowhere near the same resources as PvE content, but it has many times more the replayability. They could spend a thousand dollars on creating a single pve mission, and players would grow tired of doing that mission in a few days. If they spent those same thousand dollars on creating a single PvP mission, the replayability could last for weeks or months, because that is how PvP works. Thus, the payoff for using a few resources on a single PvP mission is many times greater than a PvE mission. And of course, if PvE content is reused for PvP, the cost of that PvP content can be greatly reduced.

 

They can flip a switch and allow us to hit each other. They flip another switch and we can use the current pve tiles for pvp. They switch yet another switch and the game begins to track how much damage we do to each other, instead of how much damge we do to ai enemies. 

[drakwon]

Actually DE_Steve and DE_Rebecca (I am talking about DE official staff who would know) have said that the game *engine* cant support more than 4 players + enemies.  That is why the dojo has no AI.  So that there is nothing to break there.  In normal missions the AI will break because the game engine cant handle it.

That is directly from DE, so please take your prattling elsewhere where you *might* know what you are talking about.

The engine itself cant support fully working spawns or AI.  Even on a maxed out gaming rig if you have 6 to 8 people you see the AI breaking, even if there is no lag for anyone involved.

So yes, it is the game engine not being able to support more people.  it has *nothing* to do with needing dedicated servers.

Please think or, god forbid, learn about what you're going to say before you say it.

You do realize its their own proprietary engine....which they coded.....and can be edited..... "Please think or, god forbid, learn about what you're going to say before you say it." ...ironic.

[drakwon]

@Ghobe:

 

Why do you need to show stuff off to other people, though?

 

Why can't the sense of accomplishment be your reward?

 

Do you REALLY have to prove how "leet" you are?

 

Okay, even if you take an unranked MK1 and solo Ambulas with it, well ok, you must have some magical mad skill or something. And your point, is? You want extra little shiny rewards to prove you did it?

 

I don't get this infatuation with having to prove to the world you did something, rather than just doing it, succeeding, and feeling good about yourself. I remember older MMOs, where people looked down their Seattle Space Needle noses at everybody else. It is bad for the community and the environment when you have Elitists using "Special Snowflake Gear" to show off and brag, boast, etc. "Haha look what I have but you don't!"

 

Some of my worst moments in online gaming involved these types of people who feel the need to brag about how awesome they are and how everybody else sucks.

 

If you're good, well, hey. That's nice and all. But don't go walking around with an attitude. Handing players like that special little shinies only makes them even MORE Elitist... "OMG you don't have _____? You suck, then!"

 

It gets even worse then more powerful weapons and armor are given in games like those to people who did ridiculous stuff to get them. They already proven they have more skill than anybody else, let's reward them with ridiculously overpowered gear, too! I remember the days when WoW handed people overpowered crap for doing something <0.1% of the total playerbase ever did. Wanna know what those players did? They strutted around in town with this junk on (some of which was obtained through hacking/glitches/etc) and they proceeded to look down their nose at all the people (99.9%) who didn't have said stuff like they were lesser human beings because of it.

 

And of course when it came to doing any sort of group content, these overpowered players would point at their damage meters and laugh, because they were handed overpowered crap just for being elitist.

 

I'm OK with pure Aesthetic Rewards, but NO NO NO NO NO NO to actual stat weapons, warframes, etc, for that kinda thing.

Showing new players, older players with the most visually appealing equipment in the game is essential to any MMO. Everyone wants their character to look cool. In WoW if you played well at the game you would be invited to groups, if you just joined groups, went afk, didnt do much to help accomplish the task, you werent invited to groups. Also gear wasn't everything, it was how well you played. People in higher rank gear were constantly being out played by people in lesser gear, and it was 1% completed naxx 40 man. Which was 1 out of 3 end game dungeons.

Edited August 24, 2013 by drakwon

[fatpig84]

No I do not want 40 men raids.

Re-tuning current boss fights is enough, we do not need extra special bosses that require dozens of people spamming acrids to put down.

[whitejackale]

No I do not want 40 men raids.

Re-tuning current boss fights is enough, we do not need extra special bosses that require dozens of people spamming acrids to put down.

I agree with the part of not having 40man raids, but I do support maybe 8man/16man void missions that offer a lot more difficulty than is currently available in the game.

Edited August 24, 2013 by whitejackale

[Xylia]

People in higher rank gear were constantly being out played by people in lesser gear, and it was 1% completed naxx 40 man. Which was 1 out of 3 end game dungeons.

 

I was talking more about Sunwell Plateau, which had an even smaller participation level.

 

How many players do you suppose actually saw Kil'jaeden die before the massive Pre-LK nerf to the raids' difficulty?

 

It wasn't anywhere near 1% of the total playerbase.

 

And back during Vanilla... you stood almost no chance of beating someone in full Naxx gear if you were wearing anything less than AQ40 in a 1-on-1. Sheer numbers would get you creamed, and Fast unless the person wearing Naxx40 bought their character and had absolutely no clue how to play the game.

 

See, thing is, it did take some skill to actually beat those bosses and not many "bad" players were toting that kind of hardware. Now, once they made things easier to acquire and gave PvP its own gear progression that basically involved AFKing in battlegrounds, which started to happen in Burning Crusade, then yes... you saw higher geared players getting owned by lower geared players -- said higher geared player most likely AFK'd in battlegrounds to get their honor points that they bought their gear with. And then, later, Conquest points were added and that was much of the same. "AFK through my Daily Battleground and log off for the day". Yes, THOSE players got owned by people wearing lesser gear.

 

If you were in Honor gear and you came across a Conquest player who was anywhere near as skilled as you, you got your pretty little butt handed to you and fast. Even faster, if the other player was actually as skilled as he should be for his gear. Double that speed if he had a conquest weapon.

Edited August 24, 2013 by Xylia