Nova "steal Killing" Feedback

[neKroMancer]

Umm no,

 

Picking from an arbitrary list is how you order pre-made food, not design a warframe. And I sure as hell didn't vote for her current two and three powers.

 

 

It's great you're trying to ignore DPS but DPS is the issue.  If MPrime had all the same attributes as now except it only did 300 damage per explosion or couldn't be cast again til every Primed target was dead we wouldn't be having this conversation.

 

Secondly, the Krysae was not nerfed because the AoE damage, it was nerfed because of Infiltrators being able to get off two 180% cloak shots with an added +25% damage and 15% RoF on the GI from Hunter Mode to add insult to injury.

 

Since the GI was Eric's favorite unit, he choose to nerf the weapon instead of the character. The Krysae was worthless thereafter and the GI continued to turn every weapon available into a bullet hose of infinite death.

 

You're also ignoring every weapon I mentioned had higher per target damage or stun and damage without cloak or headshot bonuses, and two of them caused literal stunlock from overloading the pain-flinch threshold, up to and including Praetorians and Banshees.

 

Context is king, and very simple shift would change quite a bit, just as it did for Volt.

 

 

I posted this in another topic, if DE virtually allowed us to vote for everything that was presented in Phase1 Design council Warframe - we will still be voting until now. How do you make a vote out of 20 pages of idea? It's outright impossible.

 

Also, how do you elect prime minister /presidient in real life? Virtually every country with democracy get to choose from an extremely narrow list of candidate. That's how it works. 

 

And back at the Krysae, virtually every infiltrators that choose 40% multiplicative damage perk get the kill. I doubt that Krysae would be touched if there was no AOE component added to the gun. 

 

But, yes. Context is king. You and I agree on that.

 

Nova requires a change to bring her down to others' level since it's impossible to to buff every frame to her level. It's either nerf Nova, or change energy system as a whole.

[noir_kero]

I think I made a mistake about thinking Nova doesn't need a rework, after testing by using Nova and playing with other Nova. I think the other frame except a few need a buff sure, but m-prime need to be tone down.

 

M-prime destroys too much too fast especially at low level: I think m-prime need to have a cool-down period, remove the 50% slow effect, reduce the 2x damage to 1,5x damage (equal to roar).

 

Nullstar needs a buff: Increase rate of fire a little, and add stun to every particle hit. (CC for individual protection)

 

Side note:

- Rhino Stomp need to have a cool-down also.

- 50% slow effect should be given to Radial Disarm.

[AudioRejectz]

You can't give some ultimates a cool down and not other. Personally I agree with your post but think all ultimates should have a cool down

[Cpl_Facehugger]

Nova also make another problem clearer. Ultimate spamming and energy system.

Sure. But nerfing Nova won't solve that problem at all. It'll just make everyone migrate back to Saryn, just like before. (Also Rhino post 8.3 now that stomp is great.)

That's why you guys who talk about nerfing Nova are full of nonsense. Ult spamming is not a problem specific to Nova, and no amount of "NERF MPRIME" will solve the underlying problem. It'll just make Nova join Volt and Mag in the useless lulzframe category, which means she'll have to be buffed again if she wants to get used.

That being said, making M-prime a power in use skill ala Chaos would neatly solve the major complaints about Nova in particular, even if it left the underlying issues (ult spamming) intact.

It's a hell of a better solution than stupid stuff like removing the damage buff or nerfing the range or removing the speed debuff, which is what the Nova nerfducks generally ask for.

Again though, the best fix for the entire problem is to make it so ults for all frames can't be spammed, because the problem isn't Nova, it's the entire system.

[Hayden11121]

Sure. But nerfing Nova won't solve that problem at all. It'll just make everyone migrate back to Saryn, just like before. (Also Rhino post 8.3 now that stomp is great.)

Miasma and Stomp are limited.

 

At level 150 they won't be useful, nor with Nova's explosion.

 

HOWEVER, Making things slow and dealing double damage? That's useful on any level.

 

[TheStag]

Solution: Make Nova's ult have a small range, and make the explosions smaller so that a group must be very close to each other for the chain reaction to work. Problem solved. 

[Cpl_Facehugger]

Miasma and Stomp are limited.

 

At level 150 they won't be useful, nor with Nova's explosion.

 

HOWEVER, Making things slow and dealing double damage? That's useful on any level.

Miasma and Stomp both provide good crowd control in addition to their damage though. Miasma stuns targets for several seconds, and stomp makes them float for even longer than that. These are things that are useful on every level, much like M-prime's debuffs.

[Saenol]

That awkward feeling when you join a public Xini game with Excalibur and get more kills with a puncture build Gorgon and Heavy Impact than the trio of Nova in your session combined.

[Hayden11121]

These are things that are useful on every level, much like M-prime's debuffs.

3 seconds of stun and 10 seconds of floating in midair do not compare anywhere near the destruction of Nova's debuff.

 

I am sorry.

[Cpl_Facehugger]

3 seconds of stun and 10 seconds of floating in midair do not compare anywhere near the destruction of Nova's debuff.

 

I am sorry.

How so? Nova has no CC at all. In high level play, CC is much more valuable than damage, and it's about the same level of usefulness as debuffs like what Nova has. I mean M-Prime's speed debuff does very little save vs infested since enemies will happily shoot you just fine. It's only helpful for keeping fast enemies from reaching the pod. The damage debuff is nice, but if you're fighting level 150 enemies at all you're probably bringing your A-game with weapons that don't need a damage buff at all, so all it does is speed up how long it takes to kill, making the whole mission less tedious.

Nevermind that you said that stomp and Miasma aren't useful in high level play at all, which is clearly bogus. You can argue whether M-Prime's debuffs are better than saryn/rhino's CC, but their CC not being useful at level 150 at all? Don't be daft.

Edited August 25, 2013 by Cpl_Facehugger

[Hayden11121]

How so? Nova has no CC at all. In high level play, CC is much more valuable than damage, and it's about the same level of usefulness as debuffs like what Nova has. I mean M-Prime's speed debuff does very little save vs infested since enemies will happily shoot you just fine. It's only helpful for keeping fast enemies from reaching the pod. The damage debuff is nice, but if you're fighting level 150 enemies at all you're probably bringing your A-game with weapons that don't need a damage buff at all, so all it does is speed up how long it takes to kill, making the whole mission less tedious.

Nevermind that you said that stomp and Miasma aren't useful in high level play at all, which is clearly bogus. You can argue whether M-Prime's debuffs are better than saryn/rhino's CC, but their CC not being useful at level 150 at all? Don't be daft.

Utility my friend.

 

Nova makes everything take double damage and slows them.

 

Easily outclasses any secondary effect Rhino or Saryn has on their ultimates, and actually doubles the damage of their ultimates.

[Cpl_Facehugger]

Utility my friend.

 

Nova makes everything take double damage and slows them.

 

Easily outclasses any secondary effect Rhino or Saryn has on their ultimates, and actually doubles the damage of their ultimates.

How does this rebut what I said at all? Yes, the debuffs are nice. Did I ever say otherwise?

[Cybernoise]

Notto disu S#&$to agen...

[BoompigXD]

Notto disu S#&$to agen...

Somebody didn't read apparently 

[neKroMancer]

Sure. But nerfing Nova won't solve that problem at all. It'll just make everyone migrate back to Saryn, just like before. (Also Rhino post 8.3 now that stomp is great.)

That's why you guys who talk about nerfing Nova are full of nonsense. Ult spamming is not a problem specific to Nova, and no amount of "NERF MPRIME" will solve the underlying problem. It'll just make Nova join Volt and Mag in the useless lulzframe category, which means she'll have to be buffed again if she wants to get used.

That being said, making M-prime a power in use skill ala Chaos would neatly solve the major complaints about Nova in particular, even if it left the underlying issues (ult spamming) intact.

It's a hell of a better solution than stupid stuff like removing the damage buff or nerfing the range or removing the speed debuff, which is what the Nova nerfducks generally ask for.

Again though, the best fix for the entire problem is to make it so ults for all frames can't be spammed, because the problem isn't Nova, it's the entire system.

 

Both are the problem.

 

What I see is two particular paths ahead of us.

1. DE finally understand that energy system is not that good and decide to change it.

2. They stubbornly continue to use it and severely nerf Nova.

 

However, Nova represent another problem : Role. While her power sounds awesome, it serve more than one role and compared that to other relevant ultimates just make the matter worse.

 

Rhino: CC (9 sec), damage. range 20

Saryn: CC (3 sec), damage. range 10

Nova: CC+ debuff (60 second), damage. Initial range 25, explosion range 15.

 

No matter how you look at it, M.prime still potentially more powerful than Miasma and R.Stomp and it also serves more roles than these two. This is particularly bad design and we wouldn't be here discussing her power to no end if M.prime damage is lower and it serves primarily as a debuff/CC.

[Cpl_Facehugger]

Both are the problem.

I disagree. MPrime having debuffs and damage isn't a problem any more than rhino having CC and damage is, or Vauban having CC and damage is. Or even Mag having CC and damage is.

 

However, Nova represent another problem : Role. While her power sounds awesome, it serve more than one role and compared that to other relevant ultimates just make the matter worse.

Nova's abilities all exist in support of her role though. The damage buff is there to make it easier to explode enemies, and the speed debuff is there to let her get close enough to do it. In theory at least.

And of those, the speed debuff is pretty superflous in that it doesn't make much difference except vs infested, since enemies will still happily shoot her down. It's a strength, yeah, but it's not a huge benefit like you're implying.

 

No matter how you look at it, M.prime still potentially more powerful than Miasma and R.Stomp and it also serves more roles than these two.

The speed debuff is not crowd control at all. All it does is slow enemies. It doesn't stun them or stop them from shooting at you or the pod. More, M-Prime has two roles: Debuffs and explosions. Just like how stomp has two roles: clearing trash and CCing anything it doesn't kill.

Edited August 26, 2013 by Cpl_Facehugger

[Hayden11121]

*snip*

There is a difference from simple damage ultimates having a side effect, like Sound Quake also stunlocking everything, and from Nova's M Prime.

 

Nova's M Prime outclasses Rhino roar in utility, Frost's Snowglobe in the slow, Miasma in damage, and beats all of their ranges!

 

I mean, how do you buff everything to this level? Might as well rename the 4 button to "Charlie Sheen" because it wins that damn much.

[andboomgoestheydynamite]

How do you be an experienced nova?

 

Is there a casual and a MLG way to press 4? Is there an MLG way to shoot 5 times into drop?

 

There are no experienced ways to play frames anymore, other then Trinity, Ember, and Volt, and that's because they are all in need of a buff.

The only difference between knowing your frame or not is being a person who looked up their frame in Wiki, or played it for 15 minutes

First off, I have experienced basically every frame besides saryn, ash, and excal. Secondly, how on earth is ember an experienced way besides frost? Ember is basically press 4 and run.

Edited August 26, 2013 by andboomgoestheydynamite

[Hayden11121]

First off, I have experienced basically every frame besides saryn, ash, and excal. Secondly, how on earth is ember an experienced way besides frost? Ember is basically press 4 and run.

However, what do you really do at higher levels with WoF? Unless it's infested, it's lacking.

 

But this isn't a Loki invis spam case, you can mod for Overheat spam, but without a redirection polarity it'd take some real forma or potato to get used to.

 

And even then, you use things like Fireball on the ground so enemies get the Fire stun for walking over that patch, etc.

 

The smallest utility of ember helps, and any person who runs actual missions with her will tell you just that.

[Cpl_Facehugger]

There is a difference from simple damage ultimates having a side effect, like Sound Quake also stunlocking everything, and from Nova's M Prime.

Like what, exactly? Stunlocking is a hell of a lot more useful than slow.

 

Nova's M Prime outclasses Rhino roar in utility, Frost's Snowglobe in the slow, Miasma in damage, and beats all of their ranges!

First, it only outclasses roar in certain situations. (Ie enemies are clustered up.) Second, nobody I know uses snowglobe for slow. Third, it only beats miasma in damage when you don't take armor into account. It really isn't as good as you're trying to imply.

 

I mean, how do you buff everything to this level? Might as well rename the 4 button to "Charlie Sheen" because it wins that damn much.

Easily, because it's not really that OP in practice. I don't understand why you're having trouble coming to this conclusion, considering that you yourself have talked about Loki being better than Nova.

Edited August 26, 2013 by Cpl_Facehugger

[Hayden11121]

I'm done discussing this.

 

This thread wasn't even designed to be in gameplay feedback, it was meant to give some players an extra hand when battling the battle I am now, that she isn't about killstealing, but about more.

 

Since this turned into a "Nova is OP" or "Nova isn't OP" thread, I'd be fine with a mod closing this. Why it was even moved to gameplay feedback I don't know, this was generalized towards the public, not towards DE.

 

I've grown tired of running around in circles with the same responses and arguments. So there, you win! Done talking about Nova.

 

The frames will be buffed immensely, Nova will remain destroying most of the game's content trivially, and no nerf will ever occur again.

 

GG, Facehugger. You were the straw that broke this camel's back.

 

With that, good night.

[taiiat]

i'm glad i missed all of this, i didn't need to lose the brain cells reading the responses to this thread.

 

all i'm going to say is, i can solo Defenses (not even talking about infested)with Nova, and i don't even equip MPrime, it's too ridiculous for any player to have. 

and i know more flak will arise from this, because people gotta have their easy mode. w/e, i'll just stick to leaving missions half of the time if a Nova is using MPrime a lot. it's not worth it, there's no game left in the game. if people can only have fun by seeing 'you won' every 5 seconds, i'm concerned for their mental stability. 

[Ced23Ric]

I'd be fine with a mod closing this.