Archwing problems and possible solutions: a pre-Railjack discussion

[Larsurus]

 

With the upcoming Railjack update, Archwing once more comes into focus with the flaws it currently suffers from. I would like to discuss some things regarding Archwing and what could possibly be done to make it a better experience as a game-mode.

The problems as I see them are as follows:

1. Disconnection

The game-mode is more or less its own game as it stands today. There is really no reason to play it except for mastery and the occasional alert/event/quest and the forced underwater parts on Uranus. The only boss the game-mode offers is the Jordas Golem, which is quest based and no one goes to that node except for when farming Atlas. I'm not sure if Jordas is even possible to PUG.

Both Archwings and the associated weapons have their own mods which only adds to the disconnection. Resources (apart from Tellurium) are luckily the same as the rest of the solar system.

 

2. Acquisition

The Archwings themselves are easy enough to get (dojo), but the weapons are another story. While they have been moved away from the drop tables of missions, the grind has instead been shifted to Syndicate reputation. On the plus side, you're now guaranteed to get parts rather than having to rely on RNG. On the negative side is that you'll have to trade for the parts not available through your Syndicate(s), which will either cost you plat or a whole lot of time of trying to find anyone interested in the actual trading of parts. And that's a BIG negative for a game-mode that's already surrounded by so much negativity. What's even more discouraging is the fact that none of the Syndicates have the parts for a complete weapon. No, they each have a seperate part for the same weapon for no particular reason, making trading even more painful.

All of the above goes without mentioning all the mods you'll need to make Archwings usable at higher levels. Which requires lots of game time in a game-mode that does not add any benefit to regular ground missions (disconnection). So it is just a grind for grind's sake at this moment.

 

3. Controls and movement

I find movement in Archwing to be clunky and unintuitive. I want to go in one direction but there is a chance it won't take me there and I end up smashing into a wall instead. In the options you can switch between what's kind of the original vanilla mode of movement or the newer experimental 6 DOF (six degrees of freedom) mode. The general feeling of both options is like ice skating with a refrigerator strapped to your back, or a dump truck in the latter mode as offers even less inertia, making it useless on Corpus tilesets. Quick turns feel very awkward and often have you end up flying diagonally in the wrong direction. The game-mode suffers a great deal on Corpus tilesets due to the inertia which more often than not has you bouncing all over the place due to colliding with walls and objects, some of them invisible (looking at you, T-intersection in Corpus pipe tile). Going fast only works well in open areas, which kind of ruins it.

The problems are less apparent in the open Grineer tilesets where both movement options work better. I've heard many complaints about motion sickness in the 6 DOF mode and that's why it's just an option right now.

 

So, what can be done to make Archwing a better game-mode?

 

1. Disconnection

I can live with the separate mods for the Archwings themselves, much like the separate mods for pets and sentinels. The weapons however don't really need their own line of mods. Allow us to equip regular weapon mods for Archwing weapons and suddenly the game-mode becomes much more connected to regular game play, less grindy and perhaps even more fun! Enemies would require rebalancing to compensate but it would be a win for everyone in the end I believe.

Getting people to play the missions is a bit tougher. They need to offer equal rewards to ground missions if not better to draw interest. Could something be added to make them more lucrative? Higher Endo and credit rewards maybe, making high level Archwing a genuine alternative to the Grineer and Corpus arena nodes?

Edit: Oxium and Cryotic could be good resouces to add to Archwing missions as drops.

A new mission mode could be escort, similar to the ground mission, where you escort a small ship/life pod through hostile territory. Large asteroids or wreckage would block the view and have the player and NPC ship zig-zag through the map in order to reach open space. This would make enemies have to come closer in order to engage and not have players sniping them from across the map.

A simple "open world" tile could be made specifically for Archwing that doesn't need to be as deep or developed as the current open worlds. It could be a small mining colony where you can mine resources to trade for special rewards/credits/endo. The NPC inhabitants don't have to be oppressed, they could just be a small independant faction working there to make a living from mining and trading, kinda like Maroo's Bazaar. Amongst the asteroids you could also find player resources from both Earth and Venus, giving players an option to grind for said resources in a place other than on the ground. Corpus and Grineer owned mining operations in the same area would provide some threat towards the player if they're not careful, or act as bounty missions for those who don't fancy mining.

 

2. Acquisition

Syndicates are an okay way of getting Archwing weapons. However, I think they should offer a complete weapon per Syndicate, not a mishmash of different parts that don't add up to anything. This would lessen the requirement of having to trade an unnecessary amount and perhaps make trading the parts more lucrative if it means getting a full weapon per trade instead of just one part.

If an open world tile is made then some Archwing weapons or future Archwing weapons could be made available there.

Some archwing mods could remain as mission rewards, but they shouldn't be the main reward unless super rare, making acquisition slightly easier than having to only rely on enemy drops. Question is if Archwing mods should be made available in regular ground missions as well through enemy drops? It would tie the two game-modes together if anything.

 

3. Controls and movement

This needs a full or partial rework. It needs to be more familiar to regular movement in ground missions. The inertia needs to be dampened so we don't slide and bounce all over the place. Pointing in one direction should make us go in that direction without having to go through a curve to get there as if we are piloting a boat. The current pinball mode on tight tilesets is a pain that makes them very dull to play.

I would suggest adding an ingame toggle as a general Archwing ability (button 5 for example) that changes how the Archwing behaves and moves at the flick of a switch. Pushing the button would enable either Close Quarter flight mode or Dog Fight flight mode.

Close Quarter flight mode would be a slower but more controllable mode that disables 6 DOF. It would act more like ground movement in terms of maneuverability. Quick strafing, no excess inertia that has us colliding with walls at everty turn, just fast and easy movement for those tight Corpus tilesets.

Dog Fight mode would enable 6 DOF (if a player has the option ticked in) and would act more like a space sim. It would be faster, have less inertia (similar to the current floatiness) and would be better suited for the wide open tilesets where there is less to bump into.

Allow us, the players, to test these flight modes if needed by adding a simulation mission at Simaris where we can dog fight NPC ships or make our way through a narrow set of corridors as quickly as we can.

 

TLDR: Read two posts down.

 

Please add your feedback on what you think could make Archwing a better game-mode. I would love to hear player experiences as well regarding the above.

Edited July 15, 2018 by Larsurus
Wording and mention of Cryotic and Oxium rewards.

[bad4youLT]

while agree with "1" and "2" I have to disagree with "3" your in space , it supposed to and feel drifty what we actauly need is add in extra functionlity like instead hiting the wall we should just leap on it , pounce or just use it for extra movement , dunno "space parkour" or something and in my opinion what would be enough

[hellodownthere]

TLDR:

• More uses for archwing

• Make archwing weapons easier to get

• Being able to put regular mods on archwing weapons

• Make archwings better at moving and stopping

[Larsurus]

23 hours ago, bad4youLT said:

while agree with "1" and "2" I have to disagree with "3" your in space , it supposed to and feel drifty what we actauly need is add in extra functionlity like instead hiting the wall we should just leap on it , pounce or just use it for extra movement , dunno "space parkour" or something and in my opinion what would be enough

But when movement doesn't work well with map design then I would say that one of the two needs tweaking. Movement can be drifty, but it also needs to be responsive in order to make the cramped maps fun to navigate. If they can somehow make it so we can navigate the narrow corridors without colliding and breaking momentum at every turn then I'm all for it. That's why I suggested the movement toggle.

It could be a "git gud" situation for me as well considering how little I play the game-mode. And the reason for that is provided in my original post.

A quick note so there are no misunderstandings: I have everything there is to have in Archwing (maybe missing a mod or two, dunno). I have maxed all the weapons etc. So this is not a "gimme" thread. This is a "please make it better" thread.

[Larsurus]

I hate bumping my own threads but I'd like this to be somewhat visible during DE's working hours, atleast for one day before getting buried.

[OvisCaedo]

I kind of dread another archwing movement rework. The 6dof approach felt terrible and inappropriate for the game's level design and made the physics get very annoying. Their next attempt at different archwing controls were the baffling skywing controls. So far both of their attempts at changing it feel like they control WAY worse than what the original model was.

[OptimumBow0]

For myself, Archwing is the most discouraging collection of content in this game. I whole-heartedly agree with the disconnection/acquisition aspect, and I haven't bothered to touch it (on purpose) since a few months after its introduction. I still possess the starter set, and none of it is at max rank. My problem is that I'm ok with the state of my archwing kit and do not care to improve it when, conceptually, it is a cool part of this game.

So, agreed to all your acquisition/disconnect/mission-reward changes. Being allowed to use base-game mods on arch-weapons is probably my favorite suggestion, though.

Mechanically speaking, yes, its not as fluid or enabling as the movement provided through the Warframes. Transitioning from ground to archwing is stupefying, because the movement that often gets taken for granted has been traded for an imprecise, unresponsive, and bewildering moveset. To this day I still do not understand its behavior completely. It's nice to open up the throttle on the Grineer tilesets for sure, but Uranus/Corpus tiles, as you said, are the pits. A reduction in inertia seems a good way to tackle it, and maybe upping the sensitivity of the Archwing to user input as well.

Another gripe of mine is Archwing's scale in relationship to its movement. The two do not compliment each other. Missions are grand in size, but lack the content to justify their scope. On top of that, Archwings are not fast enough to satisfactorily cover the distance from spawn to extraction. Which would not be a problem if there was enough content between the two points to engage one's attention. Even the Corpus tiles' corridors and labyrinth-style layout feel empty.

It also doesn't help the way enemies seem to spawn in pockets at different intervals (outside of objective mission types), taking 10-30 seconds to finally be within striking distance. It's choppy, and every mission feels inconsistent. If missions were condensed or movement was given a flat increase in speed, there might be a better interaction between the two.