Endless Missions - Risk, Reward, and Diminishing Returns

[Ambitiosior]

Reconsideration and Retraction - Not Quite Right

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I had a great deal of hope for the idea I presented below, but after reading the thoughts of others and reflecting on my concept I've changed my mind.

The system described below would encourage very long runs, which conflicts with the direction DE has been pushing Warframe since release. I'd still like to see more options for players to face significant threats and receive impressive rewards, and while this system might deliver that, it would come at too great a cost.

Original Post - 'Concentration'

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If you've played Warframe for any amount of time, you've probably run quite a few Endless missions. Defense, survival, excavation, etc. These missions are an essential and unavoidable aspect of the game.

But how long do you stay in them?

Context - The Problem with Endless

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In most cases, you'll come to an Endless mission looking for a specific drop from that node: a mod you covet, valuable relics, or god forbid, Nidus parts. But after you've completed the ABC rotation that your item drops on, what do you do?

Assuming you haven't received the loot you want, you have two options: stay in the mission and reach that rotation again in the next AABC cycle, or extract and restart from round 1.

Overwhelmingly, players choose the latter. Why?

Simple: If you choose to stay, the enemies you face grow more difficult, but if you choose to leave and restart, the difficulty of enemies resets. No matter which method you choose, the rewards you receive are the same. So, there is a distinct disadvantage to staying, but no disadvantage to leaving.

This reward-scaling problem in Endless missions isn't news to anyone - not players, and not DE. If you'll spare me a moment of your time, I'd like to propose a slight change which may help address this long-standing frustration.

Proposition - Rewarding Endurance without Upsetting the Formula

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The basic concept is this: at the end of every AABC cycle (the completion of four rounds in an Endless mission), the players in a squad will be given the choice to, 'concentrate,' on the type of reward they'd like to receive from the rounds to follow. The drop chances of the appropriate rotations of that mission will shift to reflect their choice. The more AABC cycles the squad endures, the more pronounced the shift in drop chances.

As an example, consider a player looking to hunt down the Intensify mod. Looking over the wiki, our protagonist notes that Intensify can be found on rotation B of normal Tier 1 Survival missions. So, this player heads off to V Prime on Venus, noting that it's the lowest level--and thus, the easiest--T1 Survival. They arrive at V Prime, complete 3 rounds, and receive Hornet Strike--not what they were looking for. Now, they must make a choice: fight or extract.

Currently, the best option would be to extract, return to V Prime, and survive until round 3 once again, repeating this process until they get Intensify.

But if staying allowed the player to shift the odds even slightly in their favor, they might choose to stay.

Specifics - Types of Rewards and Changes in Chances

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Before we can continue to analyze this example, we need to establish some specifics about how this system would work in practice. The rewards players receive from Endless missions would need to be grouped into distinct, non-overlapping categories.

Were it my choice, I would group Endless drops into five categories: Void Relics, Mods, Endo, Components*, and Credits. These exact categories are not necessary for this system to function. The reward categories need only include all possible drops without including one drop in multiple categories.

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*I'm considering, 'components,' to mean drops such as Synthula, Mutalist Alad V Coordinates, Warframe Part Blueprints, etc. Anything that might be used in crafting.

At the completion of an AABC cycle, if a squad decides to continue fighting, they will vote on one of the available categories* to, 'concentrate,' on. For all rotations where this reward category is a possible drop, the drop chances of the chosen category will increase, and the drop chances of all other categories will decrease (refer to Calculations for in-depth details).

*I would also recommend that 'No Concentration' be an option.

Do note: ‘concentration’ does not increase the drop chance of a particular item, but an entire group of items. This means that Endless rewards are still RNG-based, as they have always been.

Let's return to our example player. After completing 3 rounds of survival and failing to receive the Intensify mod, they decide to stay in the mission. They complete their fourth round and choose to, ‘concentrate,’ on Mods. As a result, their chance of receiving a mod on each rotation where they drop is greater. This includes round 7--the next B rotation. Because the player is more likely to receive a mod drop, they are also more likely to receive their true target: Intensify. ‘Concentrating,’ on Mods allows our player to aim more directly for the loot they want--rewarding their decision to face a greater challenge with agency over their spoils.

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I would recommend that, 'concentrations,' can be changed. What I mean is, if a player were to choose to, ‘concentrate,’ on Mods after their first AABC cycle, but then changed their mind and decided to focus on Void Relics after their second AABC cycle, they would have two cycles' worth of, 'concentration,' towards Void Relics.

Calculations - Linear Scaling to Entice Long Runs

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My purpose here is not to demand specific numbers--rather, I'd like to suggest relationships. In my conceptualization of this system, I settled on this equation which I would recommend for determining the effect of, 'concentration:'

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where: P = category drop chance after, 'concentration'
            P₀ = base category drop chance (sum of each individual drop chance)
            n = the number of AABC cycles completed
            x = arbitrary scaling factor (to tune the impact of 'concentration')

            P = P₀ + x*n*P₀

This equation would allow drop chances to increase linearly with the number of AABC cycles a squad completes, ensuring that staying in an Endless mission will yield noticeably (but not ridiculously) improved drop chances. Additionally, linear scaling means that--after several AABC cycles--a player can claw their way up to a 100% drop chance for the category of the reward they’re looking for. Once again, it is key to note that, ‘concentration,’ does not increase the odds of individual rewards, but rather, categories of rewards.

To give a sense of what, ‘concentrated,’ drop chances could look like, let’s assume a scaling factor (‘x’ value) of 0.5 and return to our example player. When last we left off, our fearless Tenno chose to stay in a normal T1 Survival mission, and, ‘concentrated,’ on Mods to increase their odds of receiving Intensify. No mods drop on rotation A of T1 Survival, so rotation A would be unaffected. On rotation B, six different Mods drop, each with a drop chance of 7.69%. This means that, by default, the chance of any mod dropping on that B rotation is 46.14%. This is our ‘P₀‘ value. The player has completed one AABC cycle, resulting in an ‘n’ value of 1. So, if we assume a scaling factor (‘x’ value) of 0.5, the new chance that any mod will drop on rotation B is: P = .4614 + (0.5)*(1)*(.4614) = .6921, or 69.21%. Given that all six mod drops on this rotation are equally likely to drop, this increases the drop chance of Intensify to 11.54% (see Advanced Calculations for more details).

Under the, ‘concentration,’ system, staying in this Endless mission beyond the rotation where the player’s target item drops has allowed them to improve their chances of success. This increase in odds has given the player a clear and genuine reason to put forth the extra effort and weather the extra resistance of attempting a long Endless run. However--this concept isn’t flawless. See ‘Expansion’ for more details.

Advanced Calculations - Data Architecture and Complementary Decreases

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Unless you are seriously considering adding this, ‘concentration,’ system to Warframe, please skip this section. This part is long and boring, and goes into excruciating detail about how you might implement this system. This section is only meant to clarify previous statements, not contribute new ones, so please read the rest of this post before coming back here.

Do note: this section will be written primarily in the form of pseudocode; a logical description rather than executable scripts. This is to leave exact implementation to your discretion.

To accommodate this new system, the randomized selection process of rewards in Endless modes will need to be tweaked. First, every drop will need to be assigned a reward category. For example, the Intensify mod would be categorized under Mods (shockingly). I use five categories (listed above in Specifics) throughout this post to give a sense of what this could look like, but these particular categories are not necessary.

Second, the selection process will need to be altered. When selecting a reward at the end of a round, the game will need to perform two random selections: first, the game will need to randomly select a reward category from the current rotation; second, the game will need to randomly select an individual reward from within that reward category. With the right calculations, this two-check system won’t affect base drop rates whatsoever, but will allow, ‘concentration,’ to affect drop chances as intended.

Take, for example, rotation B of T1 Survival. The sum of all the drop chances of each mod drop on rotation B is 46.14%, meaning the odds that any mod will drop on rotation B are 46.14%. Each individual mod that drops on this rotation has the same drop chance (7.69%), which means that, provided a mod has been selected to drop, each of those six mods has a 16.67% (1/6) drop chance. .4614 * .1667 = .0769 or 7.69%, so the base drop chance of any individual mod (such as Intensify) will stay constant. This is true for every drop in every category of every rotation of every mission. The analysis below details exactly how these chances would need to be stored to ensure base drop chances are unchanged.

Data Structure - Grouping Drops and Maintaining Chances

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In order to accomodate, ‘concentration,’ without altering the current base drop chances of Endless rewards, these drop chances will need to be stored in an array. Each mission type would have its own array, which would contain an array for every tier of that mission, which would contain an array for every rotation of that tier, which would contain an array for every category of reward in that rotation and its selection chance, which would contain an array for every reward in that category, which would contain the individual reward itself and the drop chance of that reward. In summary: Mission Type -> Tier -> Rotation -> Category & Selection Chance -> Reward & Drop Chance.

Here is an example of what part of the Survival (Normal) array would look like: 

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Do note: the bold text is just there for organization, and would not actually be present in such an array.

Storing drop chances this (admittedly confusing) way would keep base drop chances the same-- .4287*.3333 = .1429, or 14.29%. The benefit of restructuring drop chances in this manner is that the chances of a particular group of rewards dropping could be altered without having to recalculate every individual drop chance. This new data storage system would be robust across all drops in all Endless missions, but only if individual drop chances are stored as relative drop chances inside of a category with its own selection chance.

Consider the unusual case of mod drops from Dark Sector Defense. Despite being in the same category on the same rotation, different Mods have different drop chances (consider Magazine Warp and Pressure Point on rotation A, which have drop chances of 6.9% and 1.01% respectively). This means that not all items in a reward category should be considered of equal drop chance, so specifying the relative drop chances of each is necessary to ensure drops maintain their current odds. For example, to stay consistent with current drop chances, Dark Sector Defense rotation A’s Mods category would need to look like this:

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This would preserve the items’ original drop chances (Magazine Warp - .5311*.1299 = .069 or 6.9%; Pressure Point - .5311*.0190 = .0101 or 1.01%) while accommodating, ‘concentration.’

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To calculate the new individual drop chance of an item, first find the sum of the drop chances of all other items in the same category in the same rotation (for instance, the sum of the drop chances of every mod drop on Rotation B of T1 Survival). We’ll call this ‘C₀,’ the base drop chance of the given category. Then, find 1/C₀, a ratio we can use to find the relative drop chance we need. Finally, multiply this ratio by the original individual drop chance of the item, and you’ll have your new relative drop chance. In equation form:

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where: C₀ = base drop chance of category
            R = new (relative) drop chance of individual reward
            R₀ = original drop chance of individual reward

            R = (1/C₀)*R₀

The above describes how drop chance storage and reward selection would need to be modified under this system, but how would, ‘concentration,’ affect these odds?

In the Calculations section, I outlined and explained an equation that would determine the increased drop chances of, ‘concentrated,’ categories. Here it is again:  P = P₀ + x*n*P₀

That equation gives the probability P of the game selecting the, ‘concentrated,’ reward category to pull a reward from, but what happens to the selection chances of the non-concentrated categories?

I worked out an equation that determines the selection chance of a non-concentrated category while keeping the proportions of drop chance between non-concentrated categories constant. So, for example, imagine a rotation that drops Mods, Endo, and Credits, and the ratio of Credit drops to Endo drops is 3:1 before, ‘concentration.’ If the player concentrates on Mods, the ratio of Credit drops to Endo drops will be 3:1 after, ‘concentration.’ Here is this equation:

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where: category D is not the category the squad chose to concentrate on
            D = the post-concentration drop chance of category D
            D₀ = the base drop chance of category D
            P = the drop chance of the concentrated category

            D = D₀*(1 - P)/(1 - P₀)

Do note: probabilities are given as decimals in this equation.

This equation would be applied to each non-concentrated category before the selection of a reward at the end of each round. However, there are three special cases which the program should check for before calculating D for each category:

If P₀ = 0, then D = D₀
If P₀ = 1, then D = 0
If P >= 1, then D = 0

Exception 1 is meant to save time, as the equation would still work but doesn’t need to be run. Exception 2 is meant to protect against a division by zero error, as 1 - 1 = 0. Exception 3 protects against negative drop chances, and saves time.

Example Case - Testing My Equations

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As an example, I’ll use our example player’s situation: ‘concentrating’ on Mods in T1 Survival. Nothing would change on the A rotation, as there are no mod drops on rotation A of T1 Survival. Here is my math for the B rotation:

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P₀ = .4614, so P = .6921 (refer to Calculations). The only other reward category on this rotation is Void Relics, with a total drop chance D₀ = .5386. Using my equation, D = .5386*(1 - .6921)/(1 - .4614) = .3079 or 30.79%. This result is logical, as if there are only two categories, the odds of one dropping are simply one minus the odds of the other dropping (.5386*(1 - .6921)/(1 - .4614) = .5386*(1 - .6921)/.5386 = 1 - .6921). The C rotation is the same situation, just with different numbers. The end result is P = .3384 and D = .6616. For both rotations, you can see that the total drop chance of everything adds up to 100%, as they ought to.

Let’s consider if, instead of Mods, our example player had chosen to, ‘concentrate,’ on Endo. This would affect the A rotation. Now my D equation becomes much more useful.

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[P₀, now the base drop chance of Endo, = .4287, so P = .6431. The D₀ of Credits = .4287, and the D₀ of Components = .1429. For cleanliness’ sake, 1 - P₀ = .5713. The D of Credits = .4287*(1 - .6431)/.5713 = .2678 or 26.78%. The D of Components = .1429*(1 - .6431)/.5713 = .0893, or 8.93%. The post-concentration probabilities add up to 1.000, as they ought to.

I worked out this equation with a lot of math on paper. I’ve tested it with several cases, and it seems to work consistently, but I very well could be wrong here. Feel free to doubt me and check my work into oblivion.

Expansion - Minor, Scaling Rewards on Every Round

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Despite the possible benefits the, 'concentration,' system presents, you may have noticed that it has a couple problems. Remembering back to our example player, they chose to, ‘concentrate,’ on Mods in order to boost their odds of receiving a specific mod that they wanted from a T1 Survival mission. However, Mods only drop on rotations B and C of T1 Survival. This means that, on rotation A, the player's, ‘concentration,’ is useless.

Additionally, if the player keeps fighting in that Endless mission, completing more and more AABC cycles, they will eventually reach a 100% chance of receiving a random mod drop on rotation B. Beyond that point, the odds of getting a mod would stay constant, while the player would have to fight harder.

For these two reasons, they would be suffering the same problem that plagues us now: fiercer resistance for equal rewards.

However, the, 'concentration,' system could be further modified to correct this problem. After a squad has completed at least one full AABC cycle and chosen a, 'concentration,' they could receive an appropriately themed bonus reward at the end of every round.

Consider our example player, who chose to, ‘concentrate,’ on Mods after their first AABC cycle of T1 Survival. On round 5, an A rotation which drops no Mods, they would receive a reward from the A rotation drop table, as well as a small extra reward (see Expansion Specifics for more details). The player would receive that same small reward on rounds 6 through 8, all the way until they have the option to, 'concentrate,' again.

These bonus rewards would increase in quantity (and where applicable, rarity) as a squad completes more and more AABC cycles. This would make, 'concentration,' beneficial on all rotations, incentivizing players to stay in for as long as possible, even through rotations they don't need.

Expansion Specifics - Suggestions and Calculations

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These are the bonus rewards I would propose for each reward category (though these specific rewards and categories are not essential to this system):

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You may note that I would recommend Endo as a bonus reward for Endo, 'concentration,' and Credits as a reward for Credit, 'concentration.' This is because Endo and Credits don't drop on every rotation of every tier of every mode, but you may wish to gather one of them on a particular node anyway. Giving these bonus rewards ensures that players will receive at least some amount of the resource they seek every round, as well as incentivize staying beyond a 100% drop chance for their chosen resource.

As with the main calculation for the impact of, 'concentration,' I have a suggested formula for determining the bonus rewards a player receives on each round:

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where A = bonus amount to be received
           A₀ = base bonus amount
           n = the number of AABC cycles completed
           y = arbitrary scaling factor (to tune the scaling of bonus rewards)

           A = y*n*A₀

Do note: The value A₀ is specific to each type of bonus reward at each tier. So, for example, the A₀ of Endo received for, ‘concentrating,’ on Mods in a Tier 1 mission would be less than the A₀ in a Tier 2 mission, etc.

As an example of how these bonus rewards might work in practice, let’s assume a scaling factor (‘y’ value) of 1. Additionally, let’s assume that the base bonus amount, A₀, of Endo received for, ‘concentrating,’ on Mods is 15 at Tier 1. Our example player, as you may remember, ‘concentrated,’ on Mods after completing a full AABC cycle of Tier 1 Survival. We’ve assumed that A₀ = 15 and y = 1, and because the player has completed one full AABC cycle, n = 1. Plug this into our equation and A = 1*1*15 = 15 Endo. This means that our player will receive 15 Endo upon completing round 5, 15 more for round 6, and so on for rounds 7 and 8. In total, after completing rounds 5 through 8, our player will have received 60 Endo.

If, after completing those 8 rounds, our player decided to stay, they would, ‘concentrate,’ again. If they, ‘concentrated,’ on Mods once again,* then they would receive 1*2*15 = 30 Endo on each of the next four rounds. If they completed all four of them, that’s 4*30 = 120 Endo this cycle, plus the 60 Endo they had earned previously, for a total of 180 Endo. For a sense of perspective, the 3 cycles they completed to get that Endo equates to 3*4*5 = 60 minutes of survival. Higher tier missions would have larger base rewards, resulting in greater returns for a player’s time. Ultimately, the choice of exact values of A₀ for each bonus reward would come down to what you find appropriate.

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*Do note: even if the example player had switched to a different concentration, they would still receive the second level of reward. So, for example, if the player changed over to concentrating on Credits, then they would receive 1*2*A₀ Credits on the next four rounds--and would keep the 60 Endo they had previously earned. If they then swapped back to Mods after completing their third cycle, then they would receive 1*3*15 = 45 Endo on the four rounds after that.

Below is a table of values that, were it my choice, I would use as the A₀ value for each reward at each tier:

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Summary - Concept and Equations

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Players could improve the drop chances of rewards in Endless missions by, ‘concentrating,’ on the category of rewards they desire. A squad would vote on their, ‘concentration,’ at the end of every four rounds (one AABC cycle). The more consecutive AABC cycles the squad completes, the more their, ‘concentration,’ will increase their rewards’ drop chances.

In addition to increasing the drop chances of a category of rewards, the squad would receive bonus rewards every round based on the category they’ve, ‘concentrated,’ on. These bonuses grow larger and larger as the squad completes more and more consecutive AABC cycles, and start with higher values in harder missions.

The following equations describe these behaviors:

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Drop Chance of a Concentrated Category:

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where: P = category drop chance after, 'concentration'
            P₀ = base category drop chance (sum of each individual drop chance)
            n = the number of AABC cycles completed
            x = arbitrary scaling factor (to tune the impact of 'concentration')

            P = P₀ + x*n*P₀

Drop chance of a Non-Concentrated Category:

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where: category D is not the category the squad chose to concentrate on
            D = the post-concentration drop chance of category D
            D₀ = the base drop chance of category D
            P = the drop chance of the concentrated category

            D = D₀*(1 - P)/(1 - P₀)

Amount of Bonus Reward Received each Round:

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where A = bonus amount to be received
           A₀ = base bonus amount
           n = the number of AABC cycles completed
           y = arbitrary scaling factor (to tune the scaling of bonus rewards)

           A = y*n*A₀

Closing - Potential Impact

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I've decided to make this post after a great deal of consideration, and only because I firmly believe the, 'concentration,' system would harmonize with the foundation of Warframe. 'Concentration,' would not require the AABC rotation system be scrapped or altered, nor would it make Endless missions trivialize other game modes, nor would it clash with the established design of Warframe's missions. 'Concentration,' could give high-level players a reason to push their builds beyond Sortie level, and could give low-level players a clear path toward greater rewards. If players decided they didn’t like this new system, they’d be able to continue extracting and re-running missions as they always have with the same results as they get now.

This change won’t make or break Warframe. It won’t revolutionize the experience of the game, nor will it affect its fundamental appeal. My only hope for this system is that it might slightly expand the variety of options players have in which to experience Warframe.

As always, DE, you have many options before you. Clashing voices pulling in opposing directions, each sure that their way is best. Despite this, you hear our voices and heed our words, considering not only the ideas we put forth in public, but the ideas you debate in private. No matter how you choose to solve the Endless mode's problems, I am confident that your decision will keep the well-being of Warframe at heart.

Thank you for your time.

 

Edited July 19, 2018 by Ambitiosior

[Julian_Skies]

This has a fundamental flaw. It penalizes (yes penalizes, by not giving access to "concentration" and thus reducing their chance to get a desired item in relation to those that do) players that don't stay in missions for very long times. And that's unhealthy.

This kind of system greatly favors making players stay within a mission without approaching either of the reasons why players might want to stay in endless missions. What are they? 

Some players want the challenge of stronger foes, to those really just given them a few hard as balls nodes, that way they can start having fun sooner! 

Other players want to farm for an item, those players stay in endless not so much for the bigger enemies but because leaving and rejoining a mission is a hassle for them, to those I believe the answer really is a cap on scaling in endless missions, they leave when the "cap" they decided on is reached anyway. This would let them farm ad nauseam without penalizing those that would rather do in spurts.

But what of the players that prefer long endurance challenges? We'd definitely need a better mission type for them, one that gives rewards for enduring but also have much smaller granular steps so the player can leave the moment they feel they got their limit.

I know that DE favors multiple shorter sessions, exactly because of the reward structure we have. In truth we need a refinement of that, plus an endurance mode for people that want it (without exclusive rewards, just an alternative for those who prefer it to, say, spy missions)

[Katinka]

What happens if the vote is tied? 

Have you considered that a vote going against a player's wants may encourage dropping out and do you have plans to counter that?

 

6 minutes ago, Julian_Skies said:

Some players want the challenge of stronger foes, to those really just given them a few hard as balls nodes, that way they can start having fun sooner!

I'd propose a 'Custom' node on each planet unlocked in the same manner as Nightmare missions (clearing all nodes).  Host would be allowed to set mission type, map and enemy level.  Maps available determined by planet, enemy level by host Mastery Rank same as Simulacrum, rewards use existing tables based on mission type and level.  No extra rewards for going higher than normal, just the challenge.

[Ambitiosior]

6 minutes ago, Julian_Skies said:

This has a fundamental flaw. It penalizes (yes penalizes, by not giving access to "concentration" and thus reducing their chance to get a desired item in relation to those that do) players that don't stay in missions for very long times. And that's unhealthy.

While players who don't stay for extended periods won't have access to, 'concentration,' its existence doesn't punish them. Rewarding endurance players for their playstyle doesn't punish short-session players for their playstyle--it just makes both of them viable options.

Additionally, players who run a few rounds, extract, then restart, are spending large amounts of time in one mission--just not all at once. 'Concentration,' would more likely reduce the amount of time players spend grinding Endless missions overall, as they are able to acquire the rewards they seek in fewer rounds.

14 minutes ago, Julian_Skies said:

Some players want the challenge of stronger foes, to those really just given them a few hard as balls nodes, that way they can start having fun sooner! 

This is also a perfectly valid idea, but harder nodes and 'concentration,' aren't mutually exclusive.

14 minutes ago, Julian_Skies said:

Other players want to farm for an item, those players stay in endless not so much for the bigger enemies but because leaving and rejoining a mission is a hassle for them, to those I believe the answer really is a cap on scaling in endless missions, they leave when the "cap" they decided on is reached anyway. This would let them farm ad nauseam without penalizing those that would rather do in spurts.

This system would benefit players that want to play Endless to farm for items by improving their odds of receiving the item they want, and as I explained before, this wouldn't punish short-burst players.

[Ambitiosior]

7 minutes ago, Katinka said:

What happens if the vote is tied? 

Have you considered that a vote going against a player's wants may encourage dropping out and do you have plans to counter that?

This is a legitimate problem that I hadn't considered. Ideally, squads that intend to run Endless for long enough to make use of, 'concentration,' would be pre-made and not matchmade, but I can see this becoming a real problem in public games. Perhaps, 'concentrations,' and rewards would be based on individuals, rather than the squad as a whole? Though this would require a more significant change to the way squads work in Warframe than I am comfortable proposing.

7 minutes ago, Katinka said:

I'd propose a 'Custom' node on each planet unlocked in the same manner as Nightmare missions (clearing all nodes).  Host would be allowed to set mission type, map and enemy level.  Maps available determined by planet, enemy level by host Mastery Rank same as Simulacrum, rewards use existing tables based on mission type and level.  No extra rewards for going higher than normal, just the challenge.

I like this idea--it sounds like a lot of fun to play around with. However, this system would serve a slightly different purpose than 'concentration.' These custom nodes would have the same reward tables and drop rates as their default counterparts, without improvement as enemy difficulty increases. The idea of, 'concentration,' is to allow rewards to improve as enemies grow more difficult. Personally, I'd love to see both features added at some point, though one is not implicitly required for the other to be appreciated.

Edited July 18, 2018 by Ambitiosior

[Katinka]

13 minutes ago, Ambitiosior said:

Rewarding endurance players for their playstyle doesn't punish short-session players for their playstyle--it just makes both of them viable options. 

I'd argue that it makes one playstyle more viable and the other less viable by comparison.  (Viable...  I really hate that over-used word...)

17 minutes ago, Ambitiosior said:

Additionally, players who run a few rounds, extract, then restart, are spending large amounts of time in one mission--just not all at once.

They might not restart the same mission.  They might pick one with the same rewards but a different map and/or enemy.  Even picking the same Corpus Defense mission can lead to a different map or different location on that map.  Restarting also grants the opportunity switch weapons or warframes to mix things up.  It also allows you to do healthy things like stand up, go get a drink of water and look at something further away than a computer screen for a while (Something opticians suggest doing every 20 minutes, for 20 seconds but can't really be done between rotations of Survival or Excavation especially.)

[Ambitiosior]

2 minutes ago, Katinka said:

I'd argue that it makes one playstyle more viable and the other less viable by comparison.  (Viable...  I really hate that over-used word...)

The operative phrase being, by comparison. The net result of this change would be long-run players receiving somewhat better rewards and short-run players receiving the same rewards. I was responding to the argument that this net result was, in fact, negative for short-run players.

4 minutes ago, Katinka said:

They might not restart the same mission.  They might pick one with the same rewards but a different map and/or enemy.  Even picking the same Corpus Defense mission can lead to a different map or different location on that map.  Restarting also grants the opportunity switch weapons or warframes to mix things up.  It also allows you to do healthy things like stand up, go get a drink of water and look at something further away than a computer screen for a while (Something opticians suggest doing every 20 minutes, for 20 seconds but can't really be done between rotations of Survival or Excavation especially.)

You make some good points. Restarting missions or going to different nodes of the same tier and type would refresh maps and change enemy factions, and changing loadout can make your experience more enjoyable. As for health concerns, perhaps the option to vote for a 1-2 minute pause every so often could be added?

The purpose of this, 'concentration,' system is to make long runs more rewarding for those who enjoy them, not to force players who prefer short runs to only do long runs. Players who do long runs already deal with these problems, yet still want those extended sessions. I think, in a shoot-and-loot game, it makes sense to reward those longer, more difficult runs with better loot.

[Marswipp]

The proposition has certainly been thought-out to some extent.  The whole concept should ideally have as minimal an impact as possible.  My feedback: The mutation values given in the example are much too high.  If we set the mutation values to 0.05 or lower, and have it drop the longer the session lasts, we will still get a notable increase in chances.  As a result, there should be less of an upset to the current balance.

Either scrap the extra reward, or give it only upon the next selection option.  If it is kept, it must be a minimal bonus that caps out after a certain amount has been collected.

[Ambitiosior]

1 minute ago, Marswipp said:

The proposition has certainly been thought-out to some extent.  The whole concept should ideally have as minimal an impact as possible.  My feedback: The mutation values given in the example are much too high.  If we set the mutation values to 0.05 or lower, and have it drop the longer the session lasts, we will still get a notable increase in chances.  As a result, there should be less of an upset to the current balance.

By 'mutation values' are you referring to the scaling factor x? If that's what you mean, then using a value of 0.05 for x in this equation:

Spoiler

where: P = category drop chance after, 'concentration'
            P₀ = base category drop chance (sum of each individual drop chance)
            n = the number of AABC cycles completed
            x = arbitrary scaling factor (to tune the impact of 'concentration')

            P = P₀ + x*n*P₀

would result in minuscule increases in category drop chance. For the example I used throughout my post of Mods in T1 Survival Rotation B, P = .4614 + (0.05)*(1)*(.4614) = .4845, a 2.31% point increase after 4 whole rounds. Bear in mind: 4 rounds is usually about 20 minutes in most modes, and I don't think 20 minutes is worth a 2% bump.

5 minutes ago, Marswipp said:

Either scrap the extra reward, or give it only upon the next selection option.  If it is kept, it must be a minimal bonus that caps out after a certain amount has been collected.

This depends entirely on what the base values for each reward are. Additionally, these bonuses scale linearly, so even extremely long runs would result in reasonable rewards.

[Marswipp]

Yes, the scaling factor is what I referred to as a mutation value.  I would like to point out that some endless missions already reward players staying longer.  If the concept is to be applied, it should still be a minimal impact.  Any value above 0.1 is likely to have an overall negative outcome on the game's economy.  0.075 would be the hard upper limit on my suggestion for both calculations.  A small percentage shift can mean a world of difference when part of the game is the grind.

Edited July 19, 2018 by Marswipp
repetition

[Julian_Skies]

The issue with making long runs more rewarding for those that run them is that it forces those that prefer short runs to run then. This is, after all, a grinding game. Whatever method of grinding has the best rewards (thus shorter amount of grind) is the method you're going to push your players towards.

This effectively penalizes whoever doesn't follows the method by increasing the amount of time they need to grind in relation to those that do. Everything is compared to the best method after all.

Not going to lie, I don't think a solution to this problem is easy to come up with since we want neither short nor long runs to be penalized, so we want equivalent rewards.

[Marswipp]

That is the main reason I said the bonus reward can be outright scrapped, and that the drop chance mutation should be small and decrease as the session duration increases, as a seemingly negligible change can make a huge impact on the current balance.

Edited July 19, 2018 by Marswipp
grammar

[peterc3]

20 hours ago, Ambitiosior said:

The basic concept is this: at the end of every AABC cycle (the completion of four rounds in an Endless mission), the players in a squad will be given the choice to, 'concentrate,' on the type of reward they'd like to receive from the rounds to follow. The drop chances of the appropriate rotations of that mission will shift to reflect their choice. The more AABC cycles the squad endures, the more pronounced the shift in drop chances.

This is fundamentally at odds with just about every facet of the game. You are essentially punishing people who can't/don't want to sit in the same mission for eons and DE has made it clear they aren't eager to reward people for long runs beyond bragging rights. Not just giving another crack at the rotation, but to increase the odds for specific things, with no apparent cost besides time, is absurd.

[Ambitiosior]

3 hours ago, peterc3 said:

This is fundamentally at odds with just about every facet of the game.

Though I'd say this is an exaggeration, after reading some of these replies and considering their perspectives, I'm beginning to agree that this would be a bad idea. While I still wouldn't say it punishes short-run players, this would definitely give an edge to long-run players, which could encourage players who would rather enjoy short sessions to endure long sessions.