Space Ninjas Vs Space Wizards.

[Hollow_Knight]

Warframe's big hook (as far as the ads I keep seeing suggest) is the whole running, jumping, slashing, shooting 'space-ninja' gameplay that it promises (and indeed delivers on).  With that being said I feel that the game is fast becoming more of a space-wizards thing, given that my sword, rifle, pistol, shotgun, fists, etc. are all completely insignificant against the power of the [4] key.

 

Not to say that this is inherently a bad thing, I still have huge fun in warframe playing the more power orientated classes or, when the mood takes me, switching back to a more martial frame for some good old fashioned slicing and dicing.  But I am continually faced with the fact that whilst swords and guns are still fun to use, they're just a back-up now.  And even some frames have started to become obsolete, not because they're incapable of dealing with the content, but just because they can't blitz it as fast, or as easily.  

 

I believe this is what most people refer to as 'power creep'.  And as it stands, a player using a frame powered up for maximum AoE can clear multiple rooms in seconds, and with the addition of the aura mods (particularly energy siphon) it's now much easier to squeeze maximum power-effectiveness out of a warframe without having to go through 3 or 4 forma cycles.

 

Still instead of doing the 3000 word essay on the in-depth mechanics of the game and practically necessitating a TL:DR summation, I'd rather pose a question:

 

Do you think DE should pursue the more power-focused gameplay, with AoE as king?  Or try to focus more on the gun- and sword-play, with the powers very much as a back-up?  Or some sort of middle ground?  All suggestions welcome...

[legionprobatio]

I agree that people are too dependent of their skills. I suggest DE nerfs the range of the moves. Like molecular prime, nerfed to 15 m or 20 m, or only able to target 10 enemies.

[-Kittens-]

I would hazard you haven't played this game very long because weapons rule the last half of the game's content unilaterally, and almost every power in the game diminishes to being a mere utility.

[ValhaHazred]

Skills are too powerful early on, but don't scale as well as guns. I think this is going to be better after the armour rework is done. Their fixing the armour curve and adding more varied weaknesses so there will be better interplay between guns and skills.

Edited August 26, 2013 by ValhaHazred

[FunkDoctaSpock]

Do you think DE should pursue the more power-focused gameplay, with AoE as king?  Or try to focus more on the gun- and sword-play, with the powers very much as a back-up?  Or some sort of middle ground?  All suggestions welcome...

"They were called Tenno. Warriors of blade and gun: masters of the Warframe armor."

 

AoE makes this game boring, I want to see more "Ninjaness" and less nuking ;) Nukes should be a last resort option, not something one can spam indefinitely. 

[gavdl13]

guns are way better at high levels, the powers deals almost any damage at high levels.

[Thodor1s]

I think the shinobi (ninjas) were also somewhat considered wizards in Japanese folk tales, due to their abilities of achieving inhuman powers. Some were said to have the power to breath fire, others were said to disappear from sight. They were warriors of the impossible, so I think in that perspective of the warframes is pretty ninja-like, at least to me...

[r3dzer0]

as many have said, abilities wane in their power and only a handful are useful at high levels: Bastille, Snow Globe for their ability to stop damage, chaos for cc, M prime and not for its ability to explode, but rather the damage bonus and the slow.

 

basically unless it has some form of utility, your moves become rather useless.  Your weapons however stay very valid, especially armor ignore weapons.  And yes, Ninjas can have spells.  they are an unorthodox warrior that use any means to take down their opponent.  You may be confusing them with samurai which just ran around with swords bows and armor and had a code of honor.

 

If you've ever played Ninja Gaiden you also have spells in that :P

[FunkDoctaSpock]

"A ninja (忍者^?) or shinobi (忍び^?) was a covert agent or mercenary in feudal Japan who specialized in unorthodox warfare. The functions of the ninja included espionage, sabotage, infiltration, and assassination, and open combat in certain situations.^[1] Their covert methods of waging war contrasted the ninja with the samurai, who observed strict rules about honor and combat.^[2] The shinobi proper, a specially trained group of spies and mercenaries, appeared in the Sengoku or "warring states" period, in the 15th century,^[3] but antecedents may have existed in the 14th century,^[4] and possibly even in the 12th century (Heian or early Kamakura era).^[5][6]

In the unrest of the Sengoku period (15th–17th centuries), mercenaries and spies for hire became active in the Iga Province and the adjacent area around the village of Kōga, and it is from their ninja clans that much of our knowledge of the ninja is drawn. Following the unification of Japan under the Tokugawa shogunate (17th century), the ninja faded into obscurity.^[7] A number of shinobi manuals, often centered around Chinese military philosophy, were written in the 17th and 18th centuries, most notably the Bansenshukai (1676).^[8]

By the time of the Meiji Restoration (1868), the tradition of the shinobi had become a topic of popular imagination and mystery in Japan. Ninja figured prominently in folklore and legend, and as a result it is often difficult to separate historical fact from myth. Some legendary abilities purported to be in the province of ninja training include invisibility, walking on water, and control over the natural elements. As a consequence, their perception in western popular culture in the 20th century is often based more on such legend and folklore than on the historical spies of the Sengoku period.

 

Legendary abilities

Superhuman or supernatural powers were often associated with the ninja. Some legends include flight, invisibility, shapeshifting, the ability to "split" into multiple bodies, the summoning of animals, and control over the five classical elements. These fabulous notions have stemmed from popular imagination regarding the ninja's mysterious status, as well as romantic ideas found in later Japanese art of the Edo period. Magical powers were sometimes rooted in the ninja's own efforts to disseminate fanciful information. For example, Nakagawa Shoshujin, the 17th century founder of Nakagawa-ryū, claimed in his own writings (Okufuji Monogatari) that he had the ability to transform into birds and animals.^[66]

Perceived control over the elements may be grounded in real tactics, which were categorized by association with forces of nature. For example, the practice of starting fires in order to cover a ninja's trail falls under katon-no-jutsu ("fire techniques").^[93]

The ninja's adaption of kites in espionage and warfare is another subject of legends. Accounts exist of ninja being lifted into the air by kites, where they flew over hostile terrain and descended into, or dropped bombs on enemy territory.^[74] Kites were indeed used in Japanese warfare, but mostly for the purpose of sending messages and relaying signals.^[97] Turnbull suggests that kites lifting a man into midair might have been technically feasible, but states that the use of kites to form a human "hang glider" falls squarely in the realm of fantasy.^[98]"

 

according to wiki ;)

[spacedkadet]

I agree and so do the memes:

 

 

and yeah I'm a little fed up of going to a defense and being with 3 novas that don't protect the pod and just fight over who can get mprime off first :(

[neKroMancer]

Problem is balance between power and weapon is off.

 

While the first half of the game looks like power, especially AOE ultimates, rules the game, it's weapon that rules the second half and power that doesn't scale simply fall into disuse. Powers that do not offer utility simply do not have any place in late game tactic. 

 

Surely the problem is partially based on how damage is calculated. However, how ultimates are designed and energy system are other facets of the problem. Most of them are press 4 and watch the world around you explode in various colors. While this make new players feel powerful, it also makes the game shallow and pretty much boring after you cast it for 50th time. What allow players to do that is energy system based on orbs.

 

Old problems that DE have to fix in the future.

[MageMeat]

A balance is thinly held by the fact that the Acrid and Molecular Prime exist in the same game.

[TunaMayo]

I wonder if we would still have this issue if we had lower max energies and less energy orbs like before?

 

I think the issue with Nova is less that Molecular Prime is too powerful, and more that she can do four ultimates with max energy. You don't think about it as an "ultimate" as you always have energy, and a lot of it.

 

I remember when I started the game in CB, it was all about shooting and slashing until I could get that fourth energy orb to use Overload.

 

I do not however, condone the use of a cooldown system.

 

But as other people have said, Guns>Powers in the long run.

[Hollow_Knight]

A lot of people seem to be calling me out on the powers > guns thing.  To address this...

 

The big nuke powers found on Rhino, Nova, Saryn etc. are still extremely potent all the way through Pluto.  They only really start to suffer once the enemy reach level 90 or so, in the higher waves of endless defence and T3 voids.

 

The weapons that outshine these powers at that level usually have to be potato'd and fully modded at the very least (if not forma'd as well).  Slapping MPrime, Focus and Stretch on your Nova is significantly easier. 

 

Additionally. I want to thank FunkDoctaSpock for pretty much rendering this entire discussion void. <3

Edited August 26, 2013 by Hollow_Knight

[ThePresident777]

I never saw this game as even remotely ninja like.  I saw a bunch of devs doing off the cut advertising and the best movement mechanics in any PC game.

 

And hell no to all this nerfer non-sense.  I like my piniatas EXPLODING.  But, I don't mind if all you nerfers get your difficulty setting.  I can share the game.  I just can't let you nerfers own it outright.

Edited August 26, 2013 by ThePresident777

[FunkDoctaSpock]

Additionally. I want to thank FunkDoctaSpock for pretty much rendering this entire discussion void. <3

lol, what did I do now ? :D

[alocrius]

Warframe could expand into a couple important areas: Customizable abilities or more and varied melee mechanics.  We already have more and varied guns.   I feel the game is stagnating the way it is with no updates forthcoming to improve the base game mechanics.  I think the game would be more tactical and fun if as op proposes, we as Tenno had more ninja-like skills to compliment or customize our warframes with.  It's just the right thing to do.  I have posted at length about this concept here if anyone's interested:https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/68907-tenno-foundation-for-martial-excellence/#entry732001

Edited August 26, 2013 by alocrius

[Eisvogel]

IMHO .... the problem doesn't reside on the powers being too OP or being really good.... the problem is that they are spammable as opposed to any decent Skill Power in most games out there... you don't spam your stuff, you use it tactically to get yourself out of a pinch or to get a much needed boost against a challenging foe (there's nothing challenging about WF... but that's another issue....).

 

So i think the best to do is bring those cooldowns on abilities, scrap or retain energy system.... but give each skill a set cooldown.... maybe 30s or 1m or more for the most powerful like Miasma, M Prime, Stomp, Sound Quake, etc

[rksk16it]

I would hazard you haven't played this game very long because weapons rule the last half of the game's content unilaterally, and almost every power in the game diminishes to being a mere utility.

 

almost... except one.

 

Btw for most of the game-content, especially the content which a player will encounter within first few days :

Spance Ninjas : 0

Space Wizards : 1

[Hayden11121]

I would hazard you haven't played this game very long because weapons rule the last half of the game's content unilaterally, and almost every power in the game diminishes to being a mere utility.

Oh really?

 

Go into a defense with just guns. Have fun, "Ninja"

[ThePresident777]

IMHO .... the problem doesn't reside on the powers being too OP or being really good.... the problem is that they are spammable as opposed to any decent Skill Power in most games out there... you don't spam your stuff, you use it tactically to get yourself out of a pinch or to get a much needed boost against a challenging foe (there's nothing challenging about WF... but that's another issue....).

 

So i think the best to do is bring those cooldowns on abilities, scrap or retain energy system.... but give each skill a set cooldown.... maybe 30s or 1m or more for the most powerful like Miasma, M Prime, Stomp, Sound Quake, etc

 

Which games are you talking about?  I don't know of a single shooter game that does not equate difficulty with bullet sponge.  If other games are difficult compared to warframe is because they have clunky, plodding, sluggish game mechanics that try my patience, or troll stores/casinos.  ME3 MP is a prime example.

[Cunshmack]

This could be dealt with by having skills be dependent on your weapons. For example, a Slash Dash would have damage, range, and maximum mobs it affects dictated by the stats on your melee weapon. So, a Skana (medium damage, medium reach, high max mob affected) would have more use fighting crowds, while a Scindo (high damage, high reach, low max mob effected) would be more appropriate in assassination runs where you need to deal high damage to the boss. All DE has to do is have more skills that logically work with this sort of variable, like Saryn's poison sword thingy.

[Voidflow]

OP has a good point.

 

I don't like all these AoE shiny abilities. If I see Ember in my team I really think I'm in world of warcraft.

As someone pointed out, abilities should be just tools (yes Vauban has vortex and batile), but anyway even these tools are to much.

 

In my opinion

- too much wizard like fancy stuff. 

- all cc are overrated as also meaningless endless defenses with lvl 100+ mobs

- crazy armor and damage scaling compared between lvl 1 and lvl 80+

- because of crazy armor scaling, crazy damage mods (serration, hornet strike)

- same mobs over and over,no matter lvl 20 or 80. 

- bad bosses AI. At least Stalker is fun to fight in solo with infested crowd around one.

 

summarized all these aspects shift warframe from space ninja towards Titan quest / diablo  etc., min maxing 2 abilities ... press (4) and shot them down with OP gun, win. :D nice you did it , wave Nr. XX ! have a cookie my friend !

 

However, more development direction towards ninja game play would be nice, more stealth, stealth missions mods. Less armor and damage scaling. Flat scaling, so that I can still have fun solo on low lvl planet without boredom and god like mode we have now. Less wizard like skills. etc. More intelligent enemies, quality !!! not quantity !!! Better AI for bosses ...

No need to put more armor and more quantity on mobs with high level, give them more shields, stronger guns, better tactics, better abilities etc.  

 

So yeah sorry for frustration post :)

[-Kittens-]

Which games are you talking about?  I don't know of a single shooter game that does not equate difficulty with bullet sponge.  If other games are difficult compared to warframe is because they have clunky, plodding, sluggish game mechanics that try my patience, or troll stores/casinos.  ME3 MP is a prime example.

 

You haven't the faintest.

[-Kittens-]

Oh really?

 

Go into a defense with just guns. Have fun, "Ninja"

 

Yeah, really.  Defense doesn't even matter after level 100 as it is. The fact it's endless is the same reason mod drops are random and certain mods take 2048 copies to max.

 

I've also defended a pod with just melee via Saryn and Rhino for 20 waves just fine.

 

By all means when L300 enemies start dropping warframe parts or exclusive guns or platinum you go ahead and drop me a line.