Dear De: Melt Frost, Destroy All Pods, Pleeeez

[ThePresident777]

I put together a team for a T4 Defense mission, without a Frost.  We all know how attached people are to Frost for Defense.

 

We had the means to destroy the enemy, yet, we started dying at wave 2 and failed at wave 16.  Not because we didn't have the tools (we had the tools to wreck for 40+ waves), but, because defense players do not know how to Space Ninja.  The reason they don't know how to Space Ninja is because they don't have to, because they can just sit in their bubble on top of the golden space ovaries until wave 25 when a Corrupted Bombard rocket sails into their chill crib and wipes them all out.  Then they panick, waste revives, and extract; then come to the forums to complain about coptoring, speed running, AoE abilities, Nova, Nova, Nova, etc., Nova, etc.

 

I've never been a fan of defense, Frost, Mesa, and other couch potatoe content.  I want to play a movement game (glass cannon, fast, visceral, spectacular), as I thought the phrase Space Ninja implied as well as whatever else Steve said.  I don't complain about couch potatoe content because I just want what I want with no obstacles attached.  I wouldn't give a damn if you put Little Bunny Foo Foo Prime in the next Prime Access, until it gets in my way.

 

Defense is in my way.  You've incentivized playing it for no good reason at all.  It doesn't belong in a Space Ninja game yet it's the only or best source for certain content.  (And why did you introduce Corpus Hijack when no one plays Grineer Hijack??)

 

Incidentally, you provide the tools to play Space Urchin, then complain about macros.  WTF?  I've never seen a macro handle movement as well as a human can.  I think Space Ninja may be your key to your macro problem if only you'll stop enablng the problem and attacking the solution (like you did with destroying AW before the EoB event.  Yes, it's destroyed, just look at what happens when the disappearing flight visual bug kicks in.  It's painfully obvious that flight in AW is now about as fast as walking in warframes.  Incidentally, the enemy are aim botting again, since some hotfix after U15.)

 

Again, I would not care if you introduced Watching Dishes and Washing TV missions in Warframe.  It would be odd, even hilarious, until it becomes "must do", until it's the only or best source for content.  Then there is a problem.  Then you are saying one thing, and doing another, and making a mess of things.  Then you are drawing different players with different psycologies into the same spot in the game and they're getting in each others way, hating the experience, hating the game, and hating you.

 

So, please, stop losing focus, stop making a mess of things, stop sabotaging player agency.  If you can't put up appropriate barriers or alternatives in Warframe for content that really shouldn't be in Warframe, or players who really shouldn't be playing with each other because it ruins the experience for them, then take the non-Warframe ideas and put them in another game.

 

You have your own virtual currency, game engine, publishng, digital distribution, etc.  So, it shouldn't be a problem for you to separate concerns and mutually exclusive choices as necessary.

 

P.S.  Please fix all these other problems:

 

 

1)  Weapon Tier Potatoes

2)  Taking the Crappy out of Mods

3)  Sniping That Matters

4)  Shotguns That matter.

5)  Give Single Handed Weapons A fun Game Play Purpose

6)  World State Window Filter

7)  Advanced Tenno Tech for a Game about Advanced Tech

8) Revitalize our shopping malls before they go extinct.

9) Loadout Selection From Navigation, like we have in the malls.

10) Infest Infested Extermination

11) More Loadout Slots

12) End Death by sheathing Animation and other assorted clunk

13)  Get Rid of Enemy Aim Botting

14)  Un-nerf AW movement.

15)  Make the Mastery Rank Test avaiable for practice.  Some fo those tests are fun in their own right.   Yey, we can't play them more than once unless we fail them contstantly and stop mastery rank up.

16)  Make nightmare mode challenges avaiable on a non-rng basis because fun game play shouldn't be locked behind a Maybe Wall.

17)  Change Warframe's design philosophy from box of toys to Box of Game Play Styles.  And stop the nerfs.  Let's have a variety of fun and well designed game play instead.

18)  Enable Player Agency

 

[zavienh5]

This guy has a point thou....

[Halser]

too hard. Do buy those new archwing shinies though.

[PickleMonster21]

Besides, watch the Warframe game intro video. Shows an Excalibur in a Cryopod, about to get taken by Vor and his Grineer army. If Frost, Nyx and Ash weren't there to DEFEND THE CRYOPOD, then we would have lost an Excalibur (and potentially countless other Frames) to the Vor and his Grineer Army. So Defence fits into the Lore of Warframe, and taking it out would be stupid.

As for Frost, I don't believe he'd approve of your post.

[theodorkw]

Perfect! 

 

 

 

[Wrecx]

I think you complain about too much IMO.

This^

 

 

18 points/problems that basically say you want an entirely different game  

 

sigh

Edited January 6, 2015 by Domin8or_

[PickleMonster21]

This^

 

 

18 points/problems that basically say you want an entirely different game  

 

sigh

18 points/problems that aren't even problems.

So, pretty much just 18 things HE wants changed.

[castem]

I put together a team for a T4 Defense mission, without a Frost.  We all know how attached people are to Frost for Defense.

 

We had the means to destroy the enemy, yet, we started dying at wave 2 and failed at wave 16.  Not because we didn't have the tools (we had the tools to wreck for 40+ waves), but, because defense players do not know how to Space Ninja.  The reason they don't know how to Space Ninja is because they don't have to, because they can just sit in their bubble on top of the golden space ovaries until wave 25 when a Corrupted Bombard rocket sails into their chill crib and wipes them all out.  

 

It sounds to me like you had a bad group.  When I have a bad group, I think "I should go with clanmates next time" rather than "this mission type clearly needs changed and a frame especially good at it needs to be looked at".

 

If you don't like Defense, then you don't really have to play it.  The only times you'd need to play it are when clearing the star chart...and then, only for 5 minutes at a time (which you could solo, if you've got the gear for T4 40+ min).  You can get pretty much whatever else you need from Defense via trading.  (And if you're after loot/XP in general, there's Survival, Interception, and Excavation you can do in place of Defense.)

 

As for the issue itself...I don't really think it is one.  T4 is meant to be difficult, so if your team wasn't adequately skilled or prepared, it makes sense they wouldn't make it too terribly far.  I don't think changing a game mode you don't like and frames that excel at said game mode is an appropriate response to the skill level of your teammates not being what you expected them to be.

[Rakosta_Kai]

I think you complain about too much IMO.

Talk about perspectives...

 

I look at his list and think he was being slightly conservative... He really could have added a great deal more.

 

What's most notable though is an intent to help see the game get better.... Sadly, all too often, it's these kinds of concerns that never even get read by companies like DE until their bottom line is impacted.

[Makya]

Hmm... Find better team mates and tell these ones to git gud?

[ThePresident777]

Saw some trailers and the one that features Frost most prominently and pods most prominently is

.  There was no snow globe in the trailer, just Ice Wave and Avalanche, and movement.

 

The trailers clearly depict Warframe as a movement game, although oddly because there are inexplicable segments where crouching in the open makes bullets magically just sail over head or confuses the Grineer into just standing around.

 

And, my point isn't that Space Clam should not, absolutely, under any circumstance, be in a Space Ninja game.  My point is that Space Cucumber content in a Space Ninja game should not be "must play" content.  It should not be the best or only source of content in a Space Ninja game.  It can be just as good a source, but not the best or only, otherwise it's a total mockery of the game being advertised.

 

And, if DE can't do that then they should consider making Space Rug it's own separate game.

 

Player's ability to Space Astro Turf in a Space Ninja game is really besides the point.

Edited January 6, 2015 by ThePresident777

[ThePresident777]

Incidentally, during one of the failed T4D runs, someone remarked that they wished they had Enemy Radar.  ROFLAMO!  Enemy Radar for void defense?  The enemy spawn from the same spots all the time and the map is not huge at all!  That's how attached people are to the pod.  They never leave it, never notice what is happening on the other side of the wall.  ROFLMAO  So much Space Ninja, NOT.

 

Hmm, envision WW1 Trench Warfare, the game.............

Edited January 8, 2015 by ThePresident777

[Liminal]

Defense is in my way.  You've incentivized playing it for no good reason at all.  It doesn't belong in a Space Ninja game yet it's the only or best source for certain content.  (And why did you introduce Corpus Hijack when no one plays Grineer Hijack??)

Yes. Defense is a pointless game mode. Easy to exploit and mostly boring.

 

2)  Taking the Crappy out of Mods

YES.

3)  Sniping That Matters

YES.

4)  Shotguns That matter.

YES.

5)  Give Single Handed Weapons A fun Game Play Purpose

YES.

7)  Advanced Tenno Tech for a Game about Advanced Tech

YES.

8) Revitalize our shopping malls before they go extinct.

YES.

9) Loadout Selection From Navigation, like we have in the malls.

YES.

10) Infest Infested Extermination

YES.

12) End Death by sheathing Animation and other assorted clunk

YES.

13)  Get Rid of Enemy Aim Botting

YES.

14)  Un-nerf AW movement.

YES.

15)  Make the Mastery Rank Test avaiable for practice.  Some fo those tests are fun in their own right.   Yey, we can't play them more than once unless we fail them contstantly and stop mastery rank up.

YES.

16)  Make nightmare mode challenges avaiable on a non-rng basis because fun game play shouldn't be locked behind a Maybe Wall.

YES.

17)  Change Warframe's design philosophy from box of toys to Box of Game Play Styles.  And stop the nerfs.  Let's have a variety of fun and well designed game play instead.

Depends on each case.

18)  Enable Player Agency

That's a bit vague.

[[DE]Momaw]

Enemy Radar for void defense?  The enemy spawn from the same spots all the time and the map is not huge at all!  That's how attached people are to the pod.

 

... The pod is the only thing that matters in a defense mission.  People bouncing all over the map looking to pad their kill score while paying no attention to the pod is how you lose.

[Doom_Bunny]

Eh, it depends on the player, I move around quite a bit as Frost even in defence. The frames/weapons them selves aren't couch potatoes the players are.

 

In a heavily based movement game such as warframe. Forcing the palyers into a certain area (defence) makes them rethink their strategy. So yes defence is probably a perfect game for space ninjas because they're in a different situation and must rethink.

Unfoutunately it appears the people you have played with don't have very good strategies, or have not come to terms with the new enemies and their massive amounts of power.

 

Who gave you stats of what people play? Spreading out the game modes to different factions adds diversity also looks pretty cool. Next up infested, we could remove a caged phorid or a towering hive.

 

What you appear to want is just to have certain common "stealth" game modes (ext, sabotage, etc) and one type of frame. This isn't Warframe. Warframe is a diverse game with loads of room for you change things up from time to time. You shouldn't be fixated on the idea of "(glass cannon, fast, visceral, spectacular)" even though you can make all frames into this (ever see a fast Frost O.O) it would be bettter to explore the variety that Warframe offers.

 

"Magic Space Ninjas" just knowing that these three words are put together means that the possabilities for the game are endless.

 

 

17)  Change Warframe's design philosophy from box of toys to Box of Game Play Styles.  And stop the nerfs.  Let's have a variety of fun and well designed game play instead.

18)  Enable Player Agency

It is a box of gameplay styles but apprantly you want to change that into whole separate games.

 

So, please, stop losing focus, stop making a mess of things, stop sabotaging player agency.  If you can't put up appropriate barriers or alternatives in Warframe for content that really shouldn't be in Warframe, or players who really shouldn't be playing with each other because it ruins the experience for them, then take the non-Warframe ideas and put them in another game.

Content that shouldn't be in Warframe and players that shouldn't play with each other, is all personal opinion. There really isn't anything DE can do about other people's opinions. The content that is in Warframe is what allows for such diverse gamepaly styles. Sure there are things like aimbot that most people don't want however even it has improved the game. Has it not caused people to be more careful like the "Space ninja" game you desire.

 

Player agency has only really been lost in the AW nerf however it's only your speed that has decreased. Everywhere else even in defence you still can move the same as anywhere else.

 

 

When we say space ninjas we should put emphasis on the word space meaning these ninjas aren't the traditional "(glass cannon, fast, visceral, spectacular)" ninjas. They have moved on (evolved) from tradition while still keeping the essential movement of a ninja. Backflips from walls, spinning attacks, awesome ground and aerial moves, etc etc. This allows for great diversity in Warframe while still having that ninja affect.

Edited January 8, 2015 by Postal_pat

[ThePresident777]

First of all, the central point of the OP is that something which doesn't really belong in the game should not be a superior, let alone exclusive, source of content, which is what defense missions are in Warframe.  There is nothing Space Ninja about playing fish in a barrel, which is what defense is, or how it's mostly played.  Fish In A Barrel is what defense enables.  It's questionable if a game about Space Ninjas should enable anything but Space ninja game play.

 

Second, as far as playing defense, the Fish in a Barrel strategy is a noob strategy.  It works until the enemy level up to the point where one Bombard rocket can take out the pod.  So, obviously, the best strategy is to not let the rocket anywhere near the pod.  If you do it right, you don't need a Frost because the rockets don't get the chance to take out the pod.  To do it right, you not only need the right loadouts, but, you have to Space Ninja.  It's not enough to just have the right loadout, you have to be an agent with the loadout.  You have to move.  That doesn't mean being a Rambo, in a land far far away.  But, it does mean getting into the right place at the right time doing the right thing, like a Space Ninja, not a Space Clam.

 

If you do not move, you are a Fish in a Barrel and a barrel without a Frost is a barrel of dead fish.  So, not only is Fish In A Barrel ultimately a Fail, but, without Frost it's an Epic Fail, totally doing it wrong. 

 

But, why fail at all when the game has the tools to win, like a Space Ninja?  And, if the game has the tools to win like a Space Ninja, why put tools in it to Space Clam?  But, if you can play Space Clam in a Space Ninja game, instead of Space Ninja, why make Space Clam the best or only way to acquire certain rewards?  If Space Clam should be a side game at best in a Space Ninja game then why make it the only or best rewarding experience for certain content?   Doing so looks like a complete lack of game design to me.  I don't comprehend it.

 

 

EDIT:   Enemy Aim Botting destroys Space ninja game play because it makes movement irrelevant.  Space Ninjas are not Space Clams.  Space Ninja implies movement, not being a clam.  Clams can't Ninjitsu, not even in space.

Edited January 8, 2015 by ThePresident777

[DiabolusUrsus]

For once I actually agree with you. I still enjoy Defense, but I don't enjoy that Frost (or similar) is still required to garner any substantial success even though DE spoke about wanting to make it so that no particular Warframe was required for any particular mode (a LONG time ago), it seems like they never got around to it. (Or they think they got around to it and are sorely mistaken.) 

 

I don't think that Defense is a terrible game mode, though, and all we really need is some adjustment to the objectives to encourage players to move around more. 

[ThePresident777]

I think, the first thing they should od about this, always, is ask themselves, "Is it Space Ninja?" and then ask themselves "Is it the only or best way to acquire these rewards?"  If DE can answer those two questions right each time then the problem is far from the worst case because if it is not Space Ninja but it is more rewarding than Space Ninja then it's just obviously totally fubar.  It kills variety.  It kills the game.  It skews the game play and rewards and progression much worse than Void keys in the Syndicate reward offerings.

Edited January 9, 2015 by ThePresident777

[Doom_Bunny]

First of all, the central point of the OP is that something which doesn't really belong in the game should not be a superior, let alone exclusive, source of content, which is what defense missions are in Warframe.  There is nothing Space Ninja about playing fish in a barrel, which is what defense is, or how it's mostly played.  Fish In A Barrel is what defense enables.  It's questionable if a game about Space Ninjas should enable anything but Space ninja game play.

 

Second, as far as playing defense, the Fish in a Barrel strategy is a noob strategy.  It works until the enemy level up to the point where one Bombard rocket can take out the pod.  So, obviously, the best strategy is to not let the rocket anywhere near the pod.  If you do it right, you don't need a Frost because the rockets don't get the chance to take out the pod.  To do it right, you not only need the right loadouts, but, you have to Space Ninja.  It's not enough to just have the right loadout, you have to be an agent with the loadout.  You have to move.  That doesn't mean being a Rambo, in a land far far away.  But, it does mean getting into the right place at the right time doing the right thing, like a Space Ninja, not a Space Clam.

 

If you do not move, you are a Fish in a Barrel and a barrel without a Frost is a barrel of dead fish.  So, not only is Fish In A Barrel ultimately a Fail, but, without Frost it's an Epic Fail, totally doing it wrong. 

 

But, why fail at all when the game has the tools to win, like a Space Ninja?  And, if the game has the tools to win like a Space Ninja, why put tools in it to Space Clam?  But, if you can play Space Clam in a Space Ninja game, instead of Space Ninja, why make Space Clam the best or only way to acquire certain rewards?  If Space Clam should be a side game at best in a Space Ninja game then why make it the only or best rewarding experience for certain content?   Doing so looks like a complete lack of game design to me.  I don't comprehend it.

 

 

EDIT:   Enemy Aim Botting destroys Space ninja game play because it makes movement irrelevant.  Space Ninjas are not Space Clams.  Space Ninja implies movement, not being a clam.  Clams can't Ninjitsu, not even in space.

The content you believe (it's your opinion, which you contradict by saying you want more game play styles) that doesn't belong in Warframe would make it a plain. It would just be a another plain ninja game. Warframe would not the awesome, diverse, full of gameplay styles, without the content that you are shunning.

 

I didn't say that that was a good stragey (neither is running around), I even said the people you have played with don't have very good strategies.

*You can do that strategy with Limbo. It works better as the barrel is indestructable all you have to do is act like a live fish and jump in and out of the barrel.

 

DE puts in varying tools in so that you change your play style. This "clam style" thing only applys to players that choose to play that way. It's not because of the content or the mission. The mission doesn't force or suggest you to stay in a bubble around the pod. The content allows for you to adapt to varying situations. It's the players decide to play that way nothing is forcing or suggesting them to play that way. If you don't like how they play then too bad, play with friends or go solo.

 

Defence is a great mission for Warframe why? because you must think differently. Just because it forces you to rethink doesn't mean you're forced to become a clam. Yes you must protect the pod, that doesn't mean you have to huddle around the pod. You can put protection over the pod and move about freely, there is no need to stay in the bubble unless you are continuely dying outside. In which case you're probably on a high wave and it's time to extract, or you're out of your league with bombarders and nullfiers in which case you need better gear/tactics.

Saying you have gear to go to wave 40+ is one thing, showing me screenshots of other people's modded gear is another. You haven't even told us what frames your group used.

 

No, your movement is probably more relevant then ever because you must sneak or use cover like a "Space ninja", instead of charging ahead. Being behind cover or moving slowly doesn't mean you're a clam it means your being sneaky like a ninja.

Edited January 9, 2015 by Postal_pat

[Azawarau]

With Nova i hit 40 no problem and actually had the two guys with me leave because it was too slow

 

Then my officer ditched me....

 

Without frost the mission is doable definitely but more difficult

 

Subbing Nova,Zephyr (Shes not bad at it somehow), Limbo, Or Nyx can help a ton as well

[Aspari]

I'd be a lot more inclined to play Defense if I actually got to play through the events that led up to discovering the cryopod. That's why Mobile Defense on Kappa or other nodes that have that tileset make more sense and thus more enjoyable. To me, Defense is redundant because Mobile Defense exists.

[InsanePMK]

 they can just sit in their bubble on top of the golden space ovaries

LOL! Golden Space Ovaries! That is comedy gold! (See what I did there?) But seriouslt Frost's Snow Globe is the only thing that makes him remotely interesting. His other powers are...

 

Freeze: You freeze on enemy with some splash cold damage.(Wow! Just. Wow!)

Avalanche: You freeze multiple enemies, then shatter them with a cool animation. (again mind blown)

 

His Ice Wave and Snow Globe abilities are the only things Frost really has going, And they are used by so many bosses and eximi (Like Lech Kril and Hyena LN2) that by the time you get your hand on Frost, there is nothing good to do with him. 

[Xeo_Nespydonum]

Vauban is better at defending than frost is.

[ThePresident777]

That's my point.  I think that Defense doesn't belong in Warframe because it facilitates and encourages non-Space Ninja gameplay in a Space Ninja game.  And, someone else thinks otherwise.  We can go around like this forever arguing what belongs in warframe.  But, the only reason why this discussion matters is because we're stuck playing missions we don't think belong in the game over and over and over .... for rewards, when there is no reason for the rewards to be found only or optimally in one mission or another.

 

Conversely, people don't play the missions they would rather play because the reward is not there.  It reduces variety and choice.  Confusing game play and reward causes uneccessary and wasteful friction. 

 

Maybe I have this opinion because I'm not stingy with my money.  I spend money when I'm entertained, not when I'm in Zombie Farmer mode.  Zombie Farmers do not feel like spending money because they do not feel anything.  They are dead.  They will grind forever.

[SleepingSentry]

All they have to do is expand the loot tables.  You wouldn't have to be stuck playing missions you don't enjoy, if you could find the reward elsewhere.  Not to mention you wouldn't feel compelled to run the same mission over and over again to get the 1 thing you're looking for.