Turn Energy Orbs Into Particles And The Addition Of An Overheat System

[pdxdubin]

TL;DR

 

- Turn energy orbs, into energy particles that slowly move into you, and look cooler.  instead of sitting on the ground like stale pieces of ghost poop waiting for you to step on.

 

- Add an over heat system to the game, to remove the ability of casting Ultimate abilities whenever you feel like it.

Add some risk to these abilities, and make them more rewarding when you use them, and more situational.

Instead of just something you can throw out whenever you have energy for it (which is quite often)

 

 

 

 

New Energy Return System

 

I really like these two ideas, and I want to focus on them, I think they will make the game more fun and balanced.

 

Now we all know that energy orbs are redundant and there are too many of them sometimes, 

 

These have been here for a LONG time and I think they could use a slight update,

I don't want to remove energy recovery, I just want to make it look better ;P 

 

So here Is how I propose to make the energy system more fun and innovative. 

 

 

Instead of plain simple orbs that drop on the ground, I think energy return should be like the "soul" of the energy you kill, or a sprite of particles that JUMPS OUT and slowly moves towards you.

For example ( But instead use Physx Particles or something more simple ) 

 

this will make it so that all the enemies that you kill off into the distance will release these instead of energy orbs, and they will rise up and move towards you, isntead you you having to run around everywhere to collect them, 

Because running around to collect energy particles is kinda boring for me. 

 

Overheat System 

 

Now since some ultimate abilities are over powered, ( Molecular prime, Rhino Stomp, Contagion ) 

 

I am sure that DE is already thinking about how to tone these down, now instead of just nerfing the abilities and letting us continue to spam them, I have a better idea.

 

The Overheat system..

 

This will not affect any spam abilities hardly at all, it will be a very simple system, where high energy cost abilities take up a certain amount of (Heat) and if you cast them too quickly you will over heat and you will be penalized with a decent cool down

(10-30 seconds)

 

But if they want to cast it AGAIN, that's fine.. But casting an ability while you are over heating, or on the verge of over heating, will cause severe damage to your warframe because you already hit your limit.

For example if you cast Molecular prime, and you over heat..  You can cast it again if you really want too, but then you may end up nearly killing yourself or hurting yourself some how as punishment,  

This will let players who want to continue to spam abilities, do so with some risk involved, while those who want to cast them once will have absolutely no risk whatsoever and they can wait to just cool down.

 

Here is a quick example of how it should look visually.

 

Now if we give some ultimate abilities, a very low amount of heat, we will not be able to cast these abilities as much as we want.

and we will have to use our heads to really make them count and make sure we get as much benefit out of them as possible.

Now in return, the heat bar should drop quite quickly for other abilities, but for 100 point ultimate's I think it should honestly over heat you instantly no matter what. 

 

Now you cannot tell me that you agree casing Molecular prime over and over and over again,

In any situation is balanced, nor for any of the other ultimate's, even vortex and rhino stomp.

These should be situational abilities that you only use in OH S#&$ situations, and if this happens, I think using these abilities will feel a lot more rewarding and would turn into more of a highlight of the game play.

 

I don't want to make the game feel less flashy, or boring

 

But at the same time these abilities are unbalanced, and the only other alternative is to completely NERF energy, or NERF the abilities themselves.

This would make for a nice alternative and add a new layer of depth to the game, and it fits in perfectly. 

 

Advantages of overheating

Now the over heat system is basically a big nerf to everyone right.. True, So I think there should be some advantages to making yourself overheat, as a strategic standard, to compel players to do something else instead of just spamming abilities.

 

Now these are all just in the air, but

Maybe once you over heat, your other abilities will do more damage or be more effective?

After overheating you could do more mele damage? or move more quickly.

 

Something to change the pace of game play, to really keep you on your toes and keep the game interesting.

 

Tell me what you think about this, after all the ideas I have come up with, and all the discussions over this topic, this has come down to the best choice and alternative to them all.

 

I don't want to remove energy orbs, that is not my goal, I just want to balance out the high cost ability spamming : )

As well as make the year old energy orbs look more up to date, which I am sure is already in the works.

Thanks for reading my post!

 

 

 

 

Edited August 16, 2013 by pdxdubin

[notlamprey]

I thought I'd copy my post from the GD section, just so we're on the same page.

(Get it? Same... yeah, I'll go.)

Honestly, I hate that I actually agree with you. When I first started playing the game, I thought that the "energy orbs" were a little wonky and strange. After I got used to them, I started giving the mechanic a free pass.

Now would be a good time to start taking a hard look at this again, because when I consider the issue objectively, I think a better solution has to be out there.

Some kind of Cooldown System would be the least complicated alternative to implement, but I'm afraid that the player base would throw a tantrum to end all tantrums if DE tried to make the switch.

I think Energy Orbs feel a little too "Arcade" for a game like this, and I'd probably prefer a "Weight-moderated Cooldown" system like the one Mass Effect 3 used. I'll provide a few supporting points below, and try to lay some groundwork for more discussion.

1) We already have frames that use powers more heavily than others; we have frames with different innate Health and Armor values; frames with different intended places in the combat zone. For me, it isn't a big stretch to extend this to the idea of a frame's "weight." Some frames would have their cooldowns affected by loadout more than others. It makes sense to offer players a choice between damage-soaking capacity and high-octane space ninjistu.

2) We already do this to an extent with the current mod system. A player's ability to store - and efficiently unleash - energy in missions is already a competitor goal to overall beefiness. The extent to which these two goals are exclusive depends on the warframe in question, which I'll talk a little more about in my 'problems' section.

3) Cooldowns are already implied by some of the mechanics currently in the game, like "Power In Use." Also, if you need to use time during a mission to hunt for energy orbs, you might as well call that what it is - a cooldown.

But sweet, sweet Lampykins, what about...

1) Wouldn't this "weight" system greatly restrict our weapon options? I want to feel free to take any weapon I want into a mission without doing math all the time.

--This would be a very good reason to avoid including weapons in any "weight-moderated" cooldown system for Warframe. I agree with people who make this point. I don't want any new energy system to restrict the player's choice of weapon, and I don't think DE wants that either. I think any "weight" system should be limited to things we put on or do with the Warframe itself. Imagine it like this: you can direct your frame's limited resources on a sliding scale going from "Tanky" to "PewPewBBQ."

2) What kind of havoc would this new system wreak on finely tuned builds? In any case, it's too dangerous.

--Not if we do it smart. That's part of the reason for this thread. I'm listening to Smooth McGroove and making Pink Panther References; I'm giving it my all here.

Anyway, this new system would have to work without treading on the toes of the current Mod Points system. I'm thinking that certain mods would be given a "weight" attribute separate from their Mod Point Cost, dependant on their polarity, effect and mod level. The cumulative effect of all applicable mods on one frame would either increase or decrease things like Ability Cooldown Times. These values might need to be different for every single Warframe. Potentially a balance headache, but maybe there's a better way. If you have good suggestions, POST THEM! :D

That's everything I could brain into one post for the moment. Hopefully, I'll be able to come up with more useful ideas and input to help flesh this thing out.

Edit: It sounds like we're talking about two versions of the same thing, really. Instead of a "weight" attribute and slider, just call it "heat reduction" or whatever's appropriate. The overheating idea reminds me of the first Mass Effect, in a good way.

Edited August 16, 2013 by notlamprey

[Lady_Khaos]

I was about to just skip reading it and rage at you for posting yet another thread on the subject....

But this one is finally refined and makes some sort of sense.

[pdxdubin]

I was about to just skip reading it and rage at you for posting yet another thread on the subject....

But this one is finally refined and makes some sort of sense.

 

Sorry about that man, These ideas derived from the community, the reason I posted all those other threads is... to make people rage at me, and to also bring in ideas.

I took in the rage and the ideas, and saw what people did not like, and saw what the inherent issues are, and I picked the best options out of that pool and turned them into a constructive thread based on my own personal opinion. 

A cooldown / overheat system sounds like a good method of balancing out some abilities, and the energy orbs need to be updated / tweaked 

 

and again, sorry for the confusion, its just a method I use to gain feedback about something I'm stumped on, I tried to take every point of view into account.

Edited August 16, 2013 by pdxdubin

[pdxdubin]

cut

 

What a great First post to this thread, giving even more constructive ideas.

if anyone has anything else to add, or any concerns on top of this please let me know.

 

I used all of the previous rage to build up into what I have now, and more criticism will help me refine my ideas even more.

Edited August 16, 2013 by pdxdubin

[neKroMancer]

ME3MP weigthed cooldown system is pretty good system. However, there is one little complication : Ultimates.

These powers aren't suitable for ME3 system due to their high damage/utility means CD will be abysmally long. ME3 success in this system depended on the fact that powers are designed to be spammed to assist player in combat with utility. Many damaging powers in ME3 need tech/biotic explosion in order to kill the enemies and that's mean player needs to cast different powers in sequence in order to deal damage. Lower DPS with better AOE/CC compared to weapon.

CD system works in this case because the length of CD is usually around 2-4 seconds for hybrid weapon/power build and can be as short as 1 second in pure caster class.

Putting ultimates into this system will resulted in long CD, slower gameplay. If this system is going to be used, ultimate must be toned down to level of other powers.

[pdxdubin]

ME3MP weigthed cooldown system is pretty good system. However, there is one little complication : Ultimates.

These powers aren't suitable for ME3 system due to their high damage/utility means CD will be abysmally long. ME3 success in this system depended on the fact that powers are designed to be spammed to assist player in combat with utility. Many damaging powers in ME3 need tech/biotic explosion in order to kill the enemies and that's mean player needs to cast different powers in sequence in order to deal damage. Lower DPS with better AOE/CC compared to weapon.

CD system works in this case because the length of CD is usually around 2-4 seconds for hybrid weapon/power build and can be as short as 1 second in pure caster class.

Putting ultimates into this system will resulted in long CD, slower gameplay. If this system is going to be used, ultimate must be toned down to level of other powers.

 

 

I considered this because it came up a lot.

However like you sad, cool downs don't really work with the spammy spells, it would get annoying.

 

However adding an "over heat" feature would allow you to continue to spam spells to an extent, except for the ultimate's.

 

It is basically the same system, just a little bit more pretty looking ;p 

[fatpig84]

Cool downs won't work.

Players just waited till it's ready and move on.

 

I know I would if soloing, but it just slows the game down even further.

The only time it won't be affected is guess what ?

 

Defense, because defense is static.

 

 

In any case some skills already have a built in timer, like Rhino stomp, Bastille, Iron skin, Chaos etc.

We can use this simpler method instead.

Edited August 16, 2013 by fatpig84

[pdxdubin]

Cool downs won't work.

Players just waited till it's ready and move on.

 

I know I would if soloing, but it just slows the game down even further.

The only time it won't be affected is guess what ?

 

Defense, because defense is static.

 

 

In any case some skills already have a built in timer, like Rhino stomp, Bastille, Iron skin, Chaos etc.

We can use this simpler method instead.

 

Which is why I proposed an over heating system...

 

Because it wont slow the game down at all, but would require you think a little bit and use abilities more carefully so they are not in excess.

 

However ultimate's should only be cast'd once in a while, not over and over how they are now.

 

THEY ARE ULTIMATE'S

 

If the game had all basic 25 energy generic energy abilities that would be fine..

 

but 100 energy room clearing ultimate's need to be a little more harder to use. 

[Cestus]

Cool downs won't work.

Players just waited till it's ready and move on.

 

I know I would if soloing, but it just slows the game down even further.

The only time it won't be affected is guess what ?

 

Defense, because defense is static.

 

 

In any case some skills already have a built in timer, like Rhino stomp, Bastille, Iron skin, Chaos etc.

We can use this simpler method instead.

 

ARPGs have low cds and the gameplay isn't slow.

 

 

 

Anyway, what about if this heat thing increased the damage that they do the closer you are to overheating? That'll give some reward for staying at that high %.

Edited August 16, 2013 by Cestus

[fatpig84]

Which is why I proposed an over heating system...

 

Because it wont slow the game down at all, but would require you think a little bit and use abilities more carefully so they are not in excess.

 

However ultimate's should only be cast'd once in a while, not over and over how they are now.

 

THEY ARE ULTIMATE'S

 

If the game had all basic 25 energy generic energy abilities that would be fine..

 

but 100 energy room clearing ultimate's need to be a little more harder to use. 

 

Honestly if you want to do this, DE has already implemented a fixed cool down for many skills. I think it would be far simpler in it's execution than any other system suggested here.

 

 

Chaos in it's own right is a devastating ultimate styled skill, but it has a draw back that if not all the chaos enemies are killed, it will take a full 25 seconds before it can be cast again.

 

Using Continuity and Constitution then Chao becomes a double edged sword since you can increase the time Nyx where Nyx is defenseless, easily another full 12 seconds. However it is also extremely powerful since they save you more energy in the long run since at higher levels Chaos controlled enemies need to use more attacks to hurt each other.

 

That alone makes it a skill that requires some thinking to use. 

You simply can't cast it blindly in normal games, outside of defense type games. 

 

Same for Bastille, a longer Bastille in defense or mob defense is a no brainer. But regular games ? Most mobs won't require a full 20 seconds of levitation for you to kill them. Would that Continuity and Constitution points be better placed else where ?

 

 

I am sure DE can work out something like this.

Edited August 16, 2013 by fatpig84

[neKroMancer]

I considered this because it came up a lot.

However like you sad, cool downs don't really work with the spammy spells, it would get annoying.

 

However adding an "over heat" feature would allow you to continue to spam spells to an extent, except for the ultimate's.

 

It is basically the same system, just a little bit more pretty looking ;p 

 

 

You got me wrong, just a bit.

 

Caster classes in ME3 are about spamming power as fast as they can. Basic human sentinel is a throw machine. He can throw every few seconds and that's a good thing because in order to do so, he must carry lighter weapon(s) to lower CD duration.

 

It's a good and surprisingly balanced system that allow player to create a caster, hybrid, or gunner/tank build from a single class. Depend on the choice you made during the 20 level progression system.

 

In case of Warframe, many frames 1-3 powers can fitted into this system. However, ultimates require another system to control its use.

 

Imo, ideally each frame should have its own system in order to promote diversity in gameplay and get rid of the RNG-based orb mechanic completely. Keep the same pace without RNG to bother you. I made a proposal about action-based system a few times in the forum. Basically, each frame has CD-based 1-3 power and a charge bar. Charge bar can be filled through doing specific action and at maxed, player can either keep it that way which will boost durability/damage/mobility, depend on the frame, or use the entire charge bar to cast an ultimate.

 

The charge bar decay overtime without performing any specific action. This mean player has to actively looking for a new target in order to keep the bar charged or fill it. 

[Mainabi]

op ultimate contagion that simply proves that you never played saryn just saying this and that is op

 

but to be fair, I like the energy idea

Edited August 16, 2013 by Seira-EGT-

[Tazmanyak]

Sorry but in my mind the suggestion is not that clear ...

You just want de to replace an energy system for skills with an overheat/cooling system?

Isnt it finally the same? An ultimate cost 100 energy, it will cost 100 heat

Mods add more energy, boost energy efficiency, so you want those mods to boost max heat and heat efficiency?

 

Again, sorry, i ask because i'm not really sure of what the discussion is finally about ^^

[Mainabi]

Sorry but in my mind the suggestion is not that clear ...

You just want de to replace an energy system for skills with an overheat/cooling system?

Isnt it finally the same? An ultimate cost 100 energy, it will cost 100 heat

Mods add more energy, boost energy efficiency, so you want those mods to boost max heat and heat efficiency?

 

Again, sorry, i ask because i'm not really sure of what the discussion is finally about ^^

I actually think he will add it to the energy system

[Wojek]

New Energy Return System

 

I really like these two ideas, and I want to focus on them, I think they will make the game more fun and balanced.

 

Now we all know that energy orbs are redundant and there are too many of them sometimes, 

 

These have been here for a LONG time and I think they could use a slight update,

I don't want to remove energy recovery, I just want to make it look better ;P 

 

So here Is how I propose to make the energy system more fun and innovative. 

 

 

Instead of plain simple orbs that drop on the ground, I think energy return should be like the "soul" of the energy you kill, or a sprite of particles that JUMPS OUT and slowly moves towards you.

 

Yeah, I agree with you here, the health and energy pick ups really could use a new skin, they just feel out of place (especially in the void!).

 

 

Overheat System 

 

Now since some ultimate abilities are over powered, ( Molecular prime, Rhino Stomp, Contagion ) 

 

I am sure that DE is already thinking about how to tone these down, now instead of just nerfing the abilities and letting us continue to spam them, I have a better idea.

 

The Overheat system..

 

However, on this I have to disagree. The way ultimates work right now is just fine.

Why? Because they work pretty good as party balancers and as a crutch for casuals! Furthermore, the only mission type where it could even be perceived as a problem is (mobile) defense, but even there, they still have both uses I wrote.

You see, in most missions you don't even need ultimates. Between lvls 1-50, a good gun (even without a catalyst) will make short work of enemies within two to four presses of your shoot button. Enemies are completely trivial here and it doesn't matter if they die like flies to your gun or your ult.

Then, at higher levels, all your ultimate takes out are the light units, the ones that you, with your improved gear (maybe some better baseball cards or a forma here or a catalyst there) still kill quite quickly. The heavy units are often left standing anyway. However, if you didn't get good gear/mods/catalysts/forma because you don't grind all day and week (e.g. are a casual), you still have your fallback! In a dire situation? Well time to pop the ult! For these players ultimates still serve the purpose of "ultimate".

Now, let's look at that party balancer aspect. A group of Loki/Loki/Ash will probably have problems getting to a wave higher than 5 - but then a rhino/saryn/nova/volt (if it's corpus) joins and with his mighty ultimate blows away big massed groups of enemies and the other three can rejoice, because now they can easily get to wave 15 or something. The other three still have to do quite a lot though, because there are always stragglers or single mobs that can make it past and at higher waves they need to focus on the heavy units. As long as the guy with the ultimate doesn't go hero moding, everybody of the three others also gets more XP!

 

Why change any of that? I am always happy when I play as my loki, ash or nyx and a frame with an awesome ultimate joins. It just means that it gets easier for me and  I get more xp and I can be quite sure to finish this mission!Hooray for ultimates!

[Mietz]

I think the current energy system is clumsy, however I don't think this would be a good solution.

Not without balancing some abilities, especially 4s.

If I would overheat with Crush every time I use it, I would probably throw it away because it would become entirely pointless.

 

Also overheat systems inherently would restrict self power-combos like Pull + Crush. Seriously why would I use Pull if I couldn't Crush afterwards due to heat?

[Tazmanyak]

Personnally, i see no issue in being able to spam ultimates multiple times in a few seconds. if players do it, it's generally because it's needed.
Cant imagine Trinity not being able to cast it's ult more than one time in 30 seconds ...

[Destro6677]

Sounds like MwO's system. 

 

But take my +1 either way.

 

Also, I need to ask that low level abilities like 1 or 2 have extremely low heat.

 

Nothing could be worse than casting rhino stomp and then having too much heat to charge a line of Xini ancients.

Edited August 17, 2013 by Destro6677

[notlamprey]

If we're talking about an Overheat System, we need to answer the question of "how much heat would X or Y power generate?"

The most straightforward answer would be to give every frame its own "Critical Temp," and tune each frame's abilities to contribute an fixed amount of heat relative to this "Critical Temp." If you think about it, the math for this already exists in the game.

All frames already have a "base maximum energy." Abilities have individual costs, reflecting a set portion of "base maximum." Flow increases your maximum energy, and Streamline decreases the proportional costs of your abilities. Looking at it this way, all the legwork is really just a matter of restating the expression.

"Base Maximum Energy" becomes "Critical Temp." Power energy costs become Heat costs. Flow can now increase your "Critical Temp" and Streamline can reduce the Heat costs of abilities. Focus and Continuity wouldn't have to change at all. AT ALL.

edit: little tweak for clarity

Edited August 17, 2013 by notlamprey

[pdxdubin]

Honestly if you want to do this, DE has already implemented a fixed cool down for many skills. I think it would be far simpler in it's execution than any other system suggested here.

 

 

Chaos in it's own right is a devastating ultimate styled skill, but it has a draw back that if not all the chaos enemies are killed, it will take a full 25 seconds before it can be cast again.

 

Using Continuity and Constitution then Chao becomes a double edged sword since you can increase the time Nyx where Nyx is defenseless, easily another full 12 seconds. However it is also extremely powerful since they save you more energy in the long run since at higher levels Chaos controlled enemies need to use more attacks to hurt each other.

 

That alone makes it a skill that requires some thinking to use. 

You simply can't cast it blindly in normal games, outside of defense type games. 

 

Same for Bastille, a longer Bastille in defense or mob defense is a no brainer. But regular games ? Most mobs won't require a full 20 seconds of levitation for you to kill them. Would that Continuity and Constitution points be better placed else where ?

 

 

I am sure DE can work out something like this.

 

At the same time chaos can have the timer removed, and switched out to an over heat system 

 

But your right,

Then the issue here is not the cool downs, its that DE really needs to balance everything

i'm not saying to just nerf nova, because some frames are at her level already,  Rhino, Vauban, Frost.. etc

 

But as we all know this might just come down to the apparent buffs that some of these unpopular warframes need

[Shifty_Shuffler]

Only skimmed over it, but I dig the overheat system. Would hopefully encourage a bit more tactical play.

[-Kittens-]

I already own mass effect. I have no need to own two copies,

[pdxdubin]

I already own mass effect. I have no need to own two copies,

 

What does this have to do with mass effect 

[Gryphticon]

Nope, I want to be as OP as the entire Grineer army :3