Ember Still Needs A Rework

[-dicht.ThanksFrost-]

I made a few posts touching this topic.

 

Although as I play her more and more, it's becoming more evident that she needs it. It also seems that no one cares or notices it so here i go again....

 

Now I use all of my frames and what I have noticed is that each frame has something that keeps it alive. Something that blocks bullets or stuns enemies so they can escape.

 

Vauban - Bastille/Vortex

Frost - Globe

Excalibur - Radial Blind

Hydroid - Undertow

Loki - invisibility

Ash - Smoke Bomb

Nova - MP slowdown

Rhino - Iron Skin

Valkyr - Hysteria

Volt - Electric Sheild

Nekros - Terrify

Oberon - Healing casts + Reckoning (stops enemies in radius)

Trinity - Blessing

Sayrn - Molt

Mag - Pull/Sheild Polarize

Zeyphr - Turbulence

Banshee - Sonic Boom, Silence, Sound Quake

Nyx - Absorb

Mirage - Eclipse & Hall of mirrors

 

Ember - A two second stun+buff cast that has little range

 

And yes, Im talking about accelerant. Accelerant is a buff casts that happens to do a stun. It's not a feasible stun since it take a mere second to wear off (or at least that's what it feels like). It's not designed to protect ember it's designed to make her stronger and it succeeds in doing so, but because of the amount of negatives that this class has, it barely even a pro, it's just a reliance. A reliance to a certain ability in order be viable outside of infested regions.

 

Pros of using ember:

High Damage Casts - Which is not even that high and it is faction dependent

 

Cons:

Slow

Squishy

Reliance To Accelerant

Short Duration Casts

Costly Casts

The amount of time it takes for the cast animation to start is obscene (WOF)

Faction Dependant

 

Most of the frames that I mentioned above serve their purpose. Ember fails to do so unless its in an infested region and even at that. Its just better to use absorb and molecular prime since the casts on ember are so costly and have such little duration (even with max duration mods). I would understand if her damage was godly but its not, even with accelerant It simply does not scale well with enemies.

 

I own and use all of my frames (except volt). And I never have such a hard time playing voids with any frame than playing with ember. Not only am I slow and cannot catch up to my teammates. I also have to suffer with my squeamishness and bad casts.

 

The only time I see ember being dependable is when she is paired with a trinity energy vamp + blessing. But is that right? That the only thing that saves ember from being on the brink of useless in high level missions is having another player with a specific class?

 

Remember overheat? How good it made ember?  Sure she was depending on a cast to keep alive. Sure it was op. But at least it made her usable! It's borderline anarchy to bring an ember into a t4 survival. At around 10-15 mins, possibly less, I practically die in 5 laser bullets. With a max vitality and redirection if I may add and It's ridiculous. All the frames have a different mean of defending themselves versus higher level enemies yet ember has almost nothing

 

Ember is a cool class, shes looks awesome, but using her is a chore. It's a testament to the shorter end of the stick. Would it be feasible to buff her damage? I feel that it wont, instead buff her speed or her stamina just a tad and give her the defensive "help me from not dying" cast she deserves like the rest of the frames.

 

You can replace fire blast since it's ember's weakest ability and possibly the weakest damage oriented cast in the game. Or maybe, buff her health or sheild or armor.

 

Every time I bring ember prime to a T4 Survival. I'm either told that im crazy or dumb. Why does it have to be like that? Shouldn't every frame be eligible enough tho survive in at least a T4 survival?

 

Overall I feel that ember needs a buff of some sort because her Slow speed, Short and faction dependent casts and extremely low health/armor/sheild rating are not compensated enough by here damage output.

Edited July 22, 2014 by NudistBeach

[Azawarau]

Accelerant has a range of 20 meters base

 

That is not small at all

 

It also gives over 5x dmg and casts extremely quicklky and mid air

 

Stop spamming ember posts or at least stop posting false or over-exaggerated information

Edited July 23, 2014 by Azawarau

[-dicht.ThanksFrost-]

Accelerant has a range of 20 meters base

 

That is not small at all

 

It also gives over 5x dmg and casts extremely quicklky and mid air

1) The speed for half of her casts including WOF (being the most important cast that ember has at her disposal) is slow

 

3) Sure the range is 20m, it still does not keep ember alive, it doesn't help her survive versus high level content and it does not scale well with enemies.

 

Stop spamming ember posts or at least stop posting false or over-exaggerated information

Now this line is a doozy!

 

1) About the information. I use ember often. I use her on t4 survivals. From playing these T4 survivals I noticed that it takes very little to kill her. It takes less than 3 shots to deplete my health and roughly 2-3 shots to deplete my shields. (740 shield & 740 Health).

 

2) I only did 1 other post related to this topic and that was months ago so no im not spamming

 

You have absolutely no right to tell me what to do. I am expressing my opinion which is my right. On these forums I am free to express my feelings and opinions towards the game in a constructive manner. From my experience with ember, this is how I feel and this is how I decided to express my opinions. I feel that it was done in a constructive and fair manner while also providing suggestions. Telling me to stop something that I am not accountable for in the slightest and to say that my information is over-exaggerated with very little counter-arguments is simply rude

 

The task to moderate my forum posting, to manage my opinions and to assure that these forums bear constructive, polite and fair posts is in the hands of the Community Moderators. If someone has to tell me to stop spamming it's their job, not yours. Perhaps if you came up with a strong argument critically pinpointing all the flaws in my forum post perhaps I would have taken this statement more lightly. But no instead you commented on 1 small part of a much larger point within my argument and took this line "seems that no one cares or notices it so here i go again...." and accused me of spamming. I will not take false accusations and this seemingly condensing behavior anymore.

 

Have a nice day

 

Its Quickly not quicklky

Edited July 23, 2014 by NudistBeach

[-dicht.ThanksFrost-]

.

Edited July 23, 2014 by NudistBeach

[-NyriX-]

[ZekariaVanwood]

It really doesn't help that heat damage does very non-existent damage to many factions other than infested, even at that they can overwhelm her and kill her without remorse. Not to mention so many frames do her job 10x better.
somebody like vauban can just cc all of the enemies and make her damage just useless. Nova can make all of her allies do double damage, again making ember useless.
Also making her use her second ability and then ult makes he use a lot of energy seeing she has to do that EVERY TIME SHE SPELL CASTS. So unless she ALWAYS plays with a trinity that can keep her energy at max forever, she kinda falls off in the later waves and minutes. (def and survival)
So i think in turn while also buffing her damage, tankiness, cc, or anything, they need to buff heat damage because it's a bit useless in itself.  

[Ohmlink]

Heat is probably one of the better elements out there, its essentially the closest to a neutral element in the game.

 

A way you could improve accelerant is to make it simply add heat damage kind of like Volts shield. It wouldn't fix her issue of survivability, but it would make her damage amp less specialized. Only issue with this change is it would kind of kill the 5x heat damage you can currently get.

[-dicht.ThanksFrost-]

Heat is probably one of the better elements out there, its essentially the closest to a neutral element in the game.

 

A way you could improve accelerant is to make it simply add heat damage kind of like Volts shield. It wouldn't fix her issue of survivability, but it would make her damage amp less specialized. Only issue with this change is it would kind of kill the 5x heat damage you can currently get.

I agree completely. in some way i feel that both should be buffed slightly.  But at least fix the speed!

[Holynight6]

Ember is reliant on too many stats to make her effective.

All four abilities require power strength.

Accelerant and WoF both require range mods, but the other two abilities don't benefit from them.

Accelerant and WoF both require duration mods.

You want efficiency to be able to spam spells as a spellcaster.

 

Whereas if you look at another caster, for example Nyx, she benefits from increased efficiency and range and benefits from DECREASED duration. This makes it really easy to create a strong build, as you're only focusing on two stats and want to detriment another. Add to that that 3 of her 4 spells have infinite scaling, and you've got an amazing caster.

 

While you can mod Ember multiple ways, it's just too convoluted. You're trying to mod to make her two good skills actually decent, which makes the other two skills redundant. Ember has her strengths, but her weaknesses are just too overpowering.

 

Not to mention the reliance on fire-only damage from accelerant. Please make it all fire-combo damage types or at least the fire % of them. It'd actually make the spell a decent group buff.

Edited July 23, 2014 by Holynight6

[TwiceDead]

Ember - A two second stun+buff cast that has little range

 

And yes, Im talking about accelerant. Accelerant is a buff casts that happens to do a stun. It's not a feasible stun since it take a mere second to wear off (or at least that's what it feels like). It's not designed to protect ember it's designed to make her stronger and it succeeds in doing so, but because of the amount of negatives that this class has, it barely even a pro, it's just a reliance. A reliance to a certain ability in order be viable outside of infested regions.

 

You want to talk about frames relying on their abilities?

I'd give you a list, but you kind of already made your own... 

 

Vauban - Bastille/Vortex

Frost - Globe

Excalibur - Radial Blind

Hydroid - Undertow

Loki - invisibility

Ash - Smoke Bomb

Nova - MP slowdown

Rhino - Iron Skin

Valkyr - Hysteria

Volt - Electric Sheild

Nekros - Terrify

Oberon - Healing casts + Reckoning (stops enemies in radius)

Trinity - Blessing

Sayrn - Molt

Mag - Pull/Sheild Polarize

Zeyphr - Turbulence

Banshee - Sonic Boom, Silence, Sound Quake

Nyx - Absorb

Mirage - Eclipse & Hall of mirrors

 

Personally I think she's fine except for Flame Blast. I haven't found a whole lot of use for that ability, and it's kind of counter-productive to her playstyle of moving around a lot to deal damage. 

Edited July 23, 2014 by TwiceDead

[-dicht.ThanksFrost-]

You want to talk about frames relying on their abilities?

I'd give you a list, but you kind of already made your own... 

 

 

Personally I think she's fine except for Flame Blast. I haven't found a whole lot of use for that ability, and it's kind of counter-productive to her playstyle of moving around a lot to deal damage. 

I mean reliance as in in order to make her other casts effective.

 

The list represents abilities that make each warframe viable in harder content. 

[RealPandemonium]

Ember works great; WoF and Fire Blast are bad.  Max efficiency + Stretch are all Ember needs to shine currently, but WoF's dependence on the duration stat makes it crippling to mod for.  Making WoF a toggle would fix this.  Fire Blast is useless in its current state with a high cost, low damage, long cast animation, and buggy mechanics.  Make WoF a toggle and make Fire Blast worth using and she'll be complete.

[Azawarau]

1) The speed for half of her casts including WOF (being the most important cast that ember has at her disposal) is slow

 

3) Sure the range is 20m, it still does not keep ember alive, it doesn't help her survive versus high level content and it does not scale well with enemies.

 

Now this line is a doozy!

 

1) About the information. I use ember often. I use her on t4 survivals. From playing these T4 survivals I noticed that it takes very little to kill her. It takes less than 3 shots to deplete my health and roughly 2-3 shots to deplete my shields. (740 shield & 740 Health).

 

2) I only did 1 other post related to this topic and that was months ago so no im not spamming

 

You have absolutely no right to tell me what to do. I am expressing my opinion which is my right. On these forums I am free to express my feelings and opinions towards the game in a constructive manner. From my experience with ember, this is how I feel and this is how I decided to express my opinions. I feel that it was done in a constructive and fair manner while also providing suggestions. Telling me to stop something that I am not accountable for in the slightest and to say that my information is over-exaggerated with very little counter-arguments is simply rude

 

The task to moderate my forum posting, to manage my opinions and to assure that these forums bear constructive, polite and fair posts is in the hands of the Community Moderators. If someone has to tell me to stop spamming it's their job, not yours. Perhaps if you came up with a strong argument critically pinpointing all the flaws in my forum post perhaps I would have taken this statement more lightly. But no instead you commented on 1 small part of a much larger point within my argument and took this line "seems that no one cares or notices it so here i go again...." and accused me of spamming. I will not take false accusations and this seemingly condensing behavior anymore.

 

Have a nice day

 

Its Quickly not quicklky

WoF is her slowest one

 

Fireball and accelerant are fast and her 3 is almost never used because its terrible anyways

 

Again with the misinfomation

 

And about scaling

 

How many abilities scale with level?

 

How many scale with weapons?

 

How ,any scale with weapons on a large range can be spammed and has stun?

 

WE HAVE A WINNER

 

I love that last bit

 

"I have the right to my opinion and you dot have the right to disagree or tell me im wrong"

 

Ok

 

My opinion is Ember needs a nerf

 

1000000 dmg fireballs too OP

 

Accelerant is so fast omg nerf it

 

Fire blast is too pretty Nerf it to hell

World on fire needs to e removed from the game its too good

 

Please tell me im wrong so i an reply with the "thats my opinion so you cant say im wrong" Excuse

 

Ember is reliant on too many stats to make her effective.

All four abilities require power strength.

Accelerant and WoF both require range mods, but the other two abilities don't benefit from them.

Accelerant and WoF both require duration mods.

You want efficiency to be able to spam spells as a spellcaster.

 

Whereas if you look at another caster, for example Nyx, she benefits from increased efficiency and range and benefits from DECREASED duration. This makes it really easy to create a strong build, as you're only focusing on two stats and want to detriment another. Add to that that 3 of her 4 spells have infinite scaling, and you've got an amazing caster.

 

While you can mod Ember multiple ways, it's just too convoluted. You're trying to mod to make her two good skills actually decent, which makes the other two skills redundant. Ember has her strengths, but her weaknesses are just too overpowering.

 

Not to mention the reliance on fire-only damage from accelerant. Please make it all fire-combo damage types or at least the fire % of them. It'd actually make the spell a decent group buff.

This

 

This is reasonable feedback

 

Its well formed and gets the point across with factual statements and offers reasonable solution

 

+1

[-dicht.ThanksFrost-]

WoF is her slowest one

 

Fireball and accelerant are fast and her 3 is almost never used because its terrible anyways

This I can Come into good terms with

 

And about scaling

 

How many abilities scale with level?

 

How many scale with weapons?

 

How ,any scale with weapons on a large range can be spammed and has stun?

This is true (sort of). In warframe only CC scales well with enemies. Although what I meant to say is in contrast to other warframe abilities Ember has bad scaling due to the face that fire damage is not so potent and the damage of her casts is not that high. (At least it does not compensate for her low health and slow speed.)

 

"I have the right to my opinion and you dot have the right to disagree or tell me im wrong"

 

Ok

 

My opinion is Ember needs a nerf

 

1000000 dmg fireballs too OP

 

Accelerant is so fast omg nerf it

 

Fire blast is too pretty Nerf it to hell

World on fire needs to e removed from the game its too good

 

Please tell me im wrong so i an reply with the "thats my opinion so you cant say im wrong" Excuse

I find it hilarious how you completely dodged the point. I never said that your opinion is invalid. Do not put words into my mouth. I simply explained my rights on this forum since you were bashing me for "spamming" (which I am not accountable for). And my information. I play ember constantly as I mentioned before and wrote statement based on my experiences with her.

 

In this segment of your post you not only mocked me, but you took what I just said and twisted it into something that I never wrote. I never said you were wrong. I said that you should not bash me for something I didn't do especially when you took a small piece of my argument which was meant to compare Accelerant to other Warframe Abilities. The point of that argument was that ember does not have an ability to keep her alive not that Accelerant was ineffective. I also mentioned how much of a liability it is, and it is, ember is ineffective against enemies other than infested unless she uses accelerant (which is not the case for most warframes, they don't need a buff cast to be deemed effective). Again, shoving false statements down my throat.

 

 

This

 

This is reasonable feedback

 

Its well formed and gets the point across with factual statements and offers reasonable solution

 

+1

Over here you discussed that Holynight6's feedback is great and I agree as well. But I absolutely adore how you just claimed that I deemed other people opinions invalid, yet here you are using this feedback made by holynight6 as a means to say that my opinion is inferior. You say that my opinions are misinformed, yet I am the one who apparently "deems people's arguments invalid". I'm not putting down other peoples opinions, you are.

 

Oh I forgot, its don't not dot

 

 

"I have the right to my opinion and you dot have the right to disagree or tell me im wrong"

 

 

Edited July 23, 2014 by NudistBeach

[-dicht.ThanksFrost-]

 

I forgot to say I love this gif +1

[Azawarau]

This I can Come into good terms with

 

This is true (sort of). In warframe only CC scales well with enemies. Although what I meant to say is in contrast to other warframe abilities Ember has bad scaling due to the face that fire damage is not so potent and the damage of her casts is not that high. (At least it does not compensate for her low health and slow speed.)

 

I find it hilarious how you completely dodged the point. I never said that your opinion is invalid. Do not put words into my mouth. I simply explained my rights on this forum since you were bashing me for "spamming" (which I am not accountable for). And my information. I play ember constantly as I mentioned before and wrote statement based on my experiences with her.

 

In this segment of your post you not only mocked me, but you took what I just said and twisted it into something that I never wrote. I never said you were wrong. I said that you should not bash me for something I didn't do especially when you took a small piece of my argument which was meant to compare Accelerant to other Warframe Abilities. The point of that argument was that ember does not have an ability to keep her alive not that Accelerant was ineffective. I also mentioned how much of a liability it is, and it is, ember is ineffective against enemies other than infested unless she uses accelerant (which is not the case for most warframes, they don't need a buff cast to be deemed effective). Again, shoving false statements down my throat.

 

 

Over here you discussed that Holynight6's feedback is great and I agree as well. But I absolutely adore how you just claimed that I deemed other people opinions invalid, yet here you are using this feedback made by holynight6 as a means to say that my opinion is inferior. You say that my opinions are misinformed, yet I am the one who apparently "deems people's arguments invalid". I'm not putting down other peoples opinions, you are.

 

Oh I forgot, its don't not dot

 

 

 

Ok

 

You start  a thread full of bad information and i call you out on it immediately and then you agree that what you said was wrong and im the bad one

 

Stop with the games

 

Give good feedback and stop trying so hard to downplay ember

 

She needs a buff but she isnt the saddest thing in the game and isnt nearly as bad as you keep making her out to be

[RealPandemonium]

This is true (sort of). In warframe only CC scales well with enemies.

This is only true if you are talking about infinite content, which is irrelevant in a balance discussion.

As far as the Fire damage type being bad, that is untrue. Fire is neutral or extra effective against everything in the game except Proto Shield (Corpus bosses and Techs.) Fire is actually good against Grineer but their exponential durability scaling mitigates its effectiveness to insignificance at higher levels. This is a problem with armor scaling, not the fire damage type.

Also, could you guys stop the personal attacks and focus on feedback? Some superficial jabbing and expressions of ire are fine but don't make the thread dreadful to read just because you disagree with someone.

 

 

She needs a buff but she isnt the saddest thing in the game and isnt nearly as bad as you keep making her out to be

 

Ember doesn't need a "buff."  She needs all of her skills to be good.

Edited July 23, 2014 by RealPandemonium

[(PSN)Lord_Gremlin]

Again with armor scaling. Why not remove armor scaling altogether? Let only HP scale.

[Azawarau]

This is only true if you are talking about infinite content, which is irrelevant in a balance discussion.

As far as the Fire damage type being bad, that is untrue. Fire is neutral or extra effective against everything in the game except Proto Shield (Corpus bosses and Techs.) Fire is actually good against Grineer but their exponential durability scaling mitigates its effectiveness to insignificance at higher levels. This is a problem with armor scaling, not the fire damage type.

Also, could you guys stop the personal attacks and focus on feedback? Some superficial jabbing and expressions of ire are fine but don't make the thread dreadful to read just because you disagree with someone.

 

 

 

Ember doesn't need a "buff."  She needs all of her skills to be good.

According to most people fire is a bad element

 

Ive pointed out grineer armor but they choose to ignore it

 

5x weapon scaling is ignored as well

 

Can you really reason with this one?

 

If he stopped with the exaggerations about ember and actually posted something with a bit of respectability he wouldnt get the kind of replies he does

 

Were on the same side and that saddens me even more because this guy doesnt know what hes saying

[-dicht.ThanksFrost-]

Ok

 

You start  a thread full of bad information and i call you out on it immediately and then you agree that what you said was wrong and im the bad one

 

Stop with the games

 

Give good feedback and stop trying so hard to downplay ember

 

She needs a buff but she isnt the saddest thing in the game and isnt nearly as bad as you keep making her out to be

Once again I am writing a response based on my experience with ember so it's not bad information, once again you are devaluing my post without any counter. Im not downplaying ember, i said that she's on the shorter end of the stick.

 

Whether it is "bad" information or not it is your call but without telling me why which gives me the assumption that my post has only bothered you since it does not seem to relate to your opinions, and for I am sorry.

 

If my information is so bad then why not prove it to me. Show me why it is bad information because all you are doing at the moment is retaliating in a condescending manner. (stating in posts #2,13,16&19 that my information is bad.)

Edited July 24, 2014 by NudistBeach

[-dicht.ThanksFrost-]

As far as the Fire damage type being bad, that is untrue. Fire is neutral or extra effective against everything in the game except Proto Shield (Corpus bosses and Techs.) Fire is actually good against Grineer but their exponential durability scaling mitigates its effectiveness to insignificance at higher levels. This is a problem with armor scaling, not the fire damage type.

+1

[Azawarau]

Once again I am writing a response based on my experience with ember so it's not bad information, once again you are devaluing my post without any counter. Im not downplaying ember, i said that she's on the shorter end of the stick.

 

Whether it is "bad" information or not it is your call but without telling me why which gives me the assumption that my post has only bothered you since it does not seem to relate to your opinions, and for I am sorry.

 

If my information is so bad then why not prove it to me. Show me why it is bad information because all you are doing at the moment is retaliating in a condescending manner. (stating in posts #2,13,16&19 that my information is bad.)

Experience can be wrong

 

A green man hit me once. All green men are bad people

 

Check the mag thread and youll get plenty of that

 

Have you used maxed out accelerant with a fire based weapon and/or fireball?

 

Have you 5 formad an ember to get the most out of her build? Its heavy but shes one of those frames that benefit most from it

[RealPandemonium]

According to most people fire is a bad element

 

Ive pointed out grineer armor but they choose to ignore it

 

5x weapon scaling is ignored as well

 

Can you really reason with this one?

 

If he stopped with the exaggerations about ember and actually posted something with a bit of respectability he wouldnt get the kind of replies he does

 

Were on the same side and that saddens me even more because this guy doesnt know what hes saying

The TC came on strong and maybe a tad excessively in the OP but he has been receptive to the discussion so far.  Attacking him personally is only derailing the thread and making him respond inappropriately in turn.  I understand your frustration better than anyone but I know that exchanging personal attacks is not going to help anything. 

[Azawarau]

The TC came on strong and maybe a tad excessively in the OP but he has been receptive to the discussion so far.  Attacking him personally is only derailing the thread and making him respond inappropriately in turn.  I understand your frustration better than anyone but I know that exchanging personal attacks is not going to help anything. 

Ive hardly throw a personal attack

 

Im just pointing out that the way hes going about it is VERY wrong

 

If he takes it personally thats his problem

 

As long as he or anyone else posts misinformation and exaggeration to prove a point ill speak up

 

When he makes a valid point and acts reasonable ill treat him that way

[RealPandemonium]

Ive hardly throw a personal attack

 

Im just pointing out that the way hes going about it is VERY wrong

 

If he takes it personally thats his problem

 

As long as he or anyone else posts misinformation and exaggeration to prove a point ill speak up

 

When he makes a valid point and acts reasonable ill treat him that way

He has more than redeemed himself, at least in my eyes.  Yelling at him about how he's posting in a negative manner is only going to promote more of the behavior you are decrying.  Controlling your own reaction to S#&$posting is the biggest way that you as an individual can contribute to this forum being less S#&$ty overall.  That goes not just for you in this forum, but everyone in every forum.