Orokin Catalysts/Reactors NEED to Change: A letter to the Game Devs

[Cavman]

The current system relies far too much on chance to be able to access literally HALF of the game's leveling feature. I understand that this is to encourage you to buy plat, but this is going to push a LOT of people away, and is going to result in a net loss of income. At the moment, it would take 720 plat to buy all the catalysts and reactors you would need to be able to supercharge every weapon/warframe. The amount of plat you would need to actually HOLD all the stuff in the game makes that total 1060 plat, I think. You start off with 50, so we can knock it down to 1010. Before you comment about this being the way they have to make money, keep reading, I'll address my problem with that.

The only current methods of obtaining catalysts/reactors without paying money are:

1) Getting them in the daily reward (luck)

2) Getting them off of random reward missions? (luck)

3) Getting the blueprints off of random reward missions (luck)

You can't even grind for them, being that the random reward missions are so damn rare. I've been able to do one, and I play a decent amount. Yes, I was able to supercharge my Volt warframe and Burston with the plat they give you, but I've had a 21 Cronus and 18 Sicarus that I've already benched because I can't progress them (more weapons coming to that point soon), and I have absolutely no idea when I'll be able to, either. Even when I'm not actively playing, I stay logged in just to try to catch one of those missions. God damn are they rare.

Okay, so. This is not a good F2P model. Well, it actually is if your only goal is to sucker people out of money, so let me rephrase that. This is not how you make a good F2P game. Spending money in a F2P game should provide you with fun additions (the increased color pallete and different helmets, for instance). At most, spending money should speed you along the path of progress. I underlined path of progress because it's the key thing here. Waiting for random reward missions so you can get a very small chance at a vital blueprint is not progressing; it's playing slots.

An overly simplified fix to this problem would be to make the blueprints available to purchase with credits, if even for an obscene amount like 10 million (at least you can still MAKE PROGRESS towards your goal, and that feels good to players). Now, you can attach all sorts of requirements on to that to make the progress much more drawn out, but progress none the less. Give the blueprint parts that require you to do specific missions, or kill specific targets. The targets and missions could even be random if you'd like, just as long as the reward is grindable. You guys are the game designers, make it really cool, involving, and fun!

Finally, on to DE making that phat cash. Well, I'm sure you all know what League of Legends is and how big of a success it has been as a F2P game. I love LoL. I've been playing it practically daily for almost two years, and it's business model is pure @(*()$ genius. If you want a new champion, the in game currency cost is actually extremely high relative to how fast you earn it. It'd be much easier just to buy it for a couple bucks. But that's perfectly okay, because I can visibly see myself getting closer to that goal. Then, you can buy skins. The only impact skins have on gameplay is visual. The trade-off is that you can't get skins with in game currency. You guys seem to have a good grip on that, so that's fine.

Within two years of playing LoL, there has never been a time where I felt I needed to spend money to get what I wanted. I've played Warframe for two weeks and it feels like I'm being squished under the impending need to spend money. I literally feel trapped between my desire to play this game, and my desire to save what little money I have. Ultimately, I think this is what will drive me away from this game, and it'll probably happen before it even gets out of beta.

In summation, I love this game so far. I think you guys have done such an amazing job creating this world, and I truly look forward to what you add to it in the future (more lore and storyline puhleaasseeee). Not only that, but I feel this game really has the potential to be so great. That said, your current F2P business model is going to be your downfall. It is going to drive a lot of possible customers away. This might be a F2P game, but unless we get lucky enough to pick up those blueprints, the players are forced into spending almost as much as they would on a new release at gamestop. Making players feel forced into spending money, even if they don't necessarily have to, is a bad thing.

[Cawkslapjones]

I second this, especially since this is supposedly a Beta. To my knowledge, that means we're supposed to test things for it's release. To do so, we need access to content. Starting with a warframe means half your possible frame testing is already done without spending any plat. You need 3 weapons just to play the game, and can test up to 5 others. That's fine, though a bit restrictive especially for people trying to find what works for them.

Back to the frame issue, by the time you've managed to grind up all the mats and blueprints for another, your starting frame is likely going to be high level, if not maxed. You had better pray that you love your new frame, or still love your old one, because otherwise you have to sell. Logically you have to sell either your high level frame, or the frame you just spent all that time trying to acquire (minumum 3.5 days, more likely a week.) With there now being 10 frames, this seems a bit absurd.

Yes, I know they need to make money. Apparently they need to do it in an unfinished product also. I can deal with it. But if they don't at least have options to progress the "hard way" then they will have a very small, albeit elite customer base. The problem arises however, that no one will play a game forever, without new blood any game will die. If they made it so you could buy slots in game for credits, that could alleviate 2 problems (the second being that anyone who has been playing for a little while has so much money but nothing to spend it on.)

The game has a lot of plusses to it. But being vastly inferior to anyone else who has used upgrade potatoes and has a plethora of frames/weapons to choose from for specific missions is not one of them. The fact that you literally can never even use a warframe's 4th skill (and therefore gather no test/bug data) is mind boggling for a supposed beta. As it stands, the alerts are too random, too broken, and can't fit into a working man's schedule. It's going to break this game before it's ever officially released in a matter of months.

[Ced23Ric]

Same old fallacies.

If you don't want to wait, you pay. Standard Free to play practice. You are not going to get 11 reactors and 30 catalysts in a week. Also, Beta - Beta also means acquiring metrics from the cash shop, so giving stuff away for free or giving people more Plat would change on what's bought.

Spend your Platinum on Slots. Pay US$5 and you can get quite a few. Even more for US$20. Considerably more.

[Cawkslapjones]

What is there to wait for when it comes to frame slots? Are new slots a random alert reward? Do you get them from log-ins?

It's a portion of the game that's very important, but literally cannot be atained in game. That's a problem, and goes back to the old way of "pay to win" that doesn't work anymore. I play plenty of F2P games, and none of them force you to pay for basic things in game. Cosmetics, playing on your impatience, reducing a grind, those are standard practices and should remain the same.

Restricting content is a poor business model, and will hurt them in the long run. Especially since it's a beta. Will it get worse when the game is released? Is there even a release projection?

[Cavman]

Same old fallacies.

If you don't want to wait, you pay. Standard Free to play practice. You are not going to get 11 reactors and 30 catalysts in a week. Also, Beta - Beta also means acquiring metrics from the cash shop, so giving stuff away for free or giving people more Plat would change on what's bought.

Spend your Platinum on Slots. Pay US$5 and you can get quite a few. Even more for US$20. Considerably more.

It isn't waiting that I have a problem with, it's hoping. You can't just wait for your catalyst blueprint, you have to wait for the mission, and then hope the odds are in your favor. That is a major turn off. It doesn't make me want to spend money, it makes me want to stop playing the game.

Also, excuse my rudeness for this, but I @(*()$ despise the argument you make here. I don't want 11 reactors and 30 catalysts in a week. I want to put in time and effort to EARN them. This argument is made so many times when it comes to balancing issues like this. I don't want free S#&$, and I also don't want no S#&$. I want the middle ground.

Pro-tip, thats why it's called balancing.

[direcyphre]

Or they could keep it how it is; be patient, or buy it with plat. Pretty nice that there is even the option to get one in a random draw or blueprints from alert missions.

[Love2Camp]

If anything, they should make you more aware of what you can get for your 50 plat before you spend it on rubbish (like crafting stuff instantly)

Since you can get two orokin for the starting 50, that's a warframe and a rifle. Now you're set to grind for orokin for your "alt" frames/weapons.

[Aido-Hwedo]

yeeeeah no... current system is fine.

Edited January 30, 2013 by DeathFromBelow

[Cavman]

Or they could keep it how it is; be patient, or buy it with plat. Pretty nice that there is even the option to get one in a random draw or blueprints from alert missions.

How is that "nice"? That implies that a F2P game should have things you NEED to buy in order to progress. Honestly, the way it is now isn't far off from that, and that is just plain scummy business.

[Tetsmeha]

I think the devs abandoned the idea of the current builds being in a testing state. They might as well just end CB phase and make it OB.

[Cavman]

yeeeeah no... current system is fine.

Please explain why you consider this system to be fine. Otherwise, I can confidently say the current system is the exact opposite of fine.

[direcyphre]

It's nice because they recently added it as an option over the previous 'Pro' system. You're welcome. I suggest avoiding the word 'need' since you can play this game in it's entirety without ever spending a cent. Absolutely nothing required is pay-only.

[Cavman]

If anything, they should make you more aware of what you can get for your 50 plat before you spend it on rubbish (like crafting stuff instantly)

Since you can get two orokin for the starting 50, that's a warframe and a rifle. Now you're set to grind for orokin for your "alt" frames/weapons.

That's what I figured I would do, but you can't really "grind" for a blueprint that you only get a chance to obtain ~2 times a week.

[RainDreamer]

I gotta say, I agree. I feel that, it is better to make it a very hard to get item, rather than completely random, would be a better idea. If you can't advance your frame/weapons, you pretty much have a sub-par frame/weapons, and can't handle any high level missions. Thus, the need for reactors/catalyst is clear.

The problem is, alert missions/log in reward are completely random with their drops, and the player face with the chance of actually seeing a reactor/catalyst will be between now, and an undefined time. There is no clear goal for them to stay and strive for in order to progress. Nothing will keep them there, except for the "hope" of getting a reactor/catalyst. And "hope" is a finite resources when there is no goal in sight.

Therefore, I believe something so crucial for character progression should not be something that is random. Make it a blueprint that players can buy for 200k credit, cost a week worth of resource farming, and takes 3 days to print, and I wouldn't even mind, because I know, if I work hard for it, I would get it, not because some RNG god spit one in my face.

Edited January 30, 2013 by RainDreamer

[Cavman]

It's nice because they recently added it as an option over the previous 'Pro' system. You're welcome. I suggest avoiding the word 'need' since you can play this game in it's entirety without ever spending a cent. Absolutely nothing required is pay-only.

I didn't say that we currently need to buy things in order to progress. I said that your statement implied that kind of system is perfectly reasonable in a F2P game. From this post, I'm assuming that the old system didn't even give you a chance to get one without paying for it? That isn't an acceptable thing to do in a F2P game, and your statement saying them giving us a chance to play their game fully is "nice" is shocking

[Mak_Gohae]

Too long to read; level other stuff.

It's fine.

[Jolly_Joka]

lol sucks

play Dota 2 .... much better

also agree with OP .... should be allowed to progress ..

make playing the game viable (such as easier to get Orokin tech for your warframes and weapons)

make getting the warframes and or skins cost platinum as well as cooler skill visuals, etc

[Cavman]

lol sucks

play Dota 2 .... much better

Eh, I've played Dota 2 enough to get an opinion on it. I don't really like it at all. the gameplay feels clunky.

Edited January 30, 2013 by Cavman

[lorddash]

The current system relies far too much on chance to be able to access literally HALF of the game's leveling feature. I understand that this is to encourage you to buy plat, but this is going to push a LOT of people away, and is going to result in a net loss of income. At the moment, it would take 720 plat to buy all the catalysts and reactors you would need to be able to supercharge every weapon/warframe. The amount of plat you would need to actually HOLD all the stuff in the game makes that total 1060 plat, I think. You start off with 50, so we can knock it down to 1010. Before you comment about this being the way they have to make money, keep reading, I'll address my problem with that.

The only current methods of obtaining catalysts/reactors without paying money are:

1) Getting them in the daily reward (luck)

2) Getting them off of random reward missions? (luck)

3) Getting the blueprints off of random reward missions (luck)

You can't even grind for them, being that the random reward missions are so damn rare. I've been able to do one, and I play a decent amount. Yes, I was able to supercharge my Volt warframe and Burston with the plat they give you, but I've had a 21 Cronus and 18 Sicarus that I've already benched because I can't progress them (more weapons coming to that point soon), and I have absolutely no idea when I'll be able to, either. Even when I'm not actively playing, I stay logged in just to try to catch one of those missions. God damn are they rare.

Okay, so. This is not a good F2P model. Well, it actually is if your only goal is to sucker people out of money, so let me rephrase that. This is not how you make a good F2P game. Spending money in a F2P game should provide you with fun additions (the increased color pallete and different helmets, for instance). At most, spending money should speed you along the path of progress. I underlined path of progress because it's the key thing here. Waiting for random reward missions so you can get a very small chance at a vital blueprint is not progressing; it's playing slots.

An overly simplified fix to this problem would be to make the blueprints available to purchase with credits, if even for an obscene amount like 10 million (at least you can still MAKE PROGRESS towards your goal, and that feels good to players). Now, you can attach all sorts of requirements on to that to make the progress much more drawn out, but progress none the less. Give the blueprint parts that require you to do specific missions, or kill specific targets. The targets and missions could even be random if you'd like, just as long as the reward is grindable. You guys are the game designers, make it really cool, involving, and fun!

Finally, on to DE making that phat cash. Well, I'm sure you all know what League of Legends is and how big of a success it has been as a F2P game. I love LoL. I've been playing it practically daily for almost two years, and it's business model is pure @(*()$ genius. If you want a new champion, the in game currency cost is actually extremely high relative to how fast you earn it. It'd be much easier just to buy it for a couple bucks. But that's perfectly okay, because I can visibly see myself getting closer to that goal. Then, you can buy skins. The only impact skins have on gameplay is visual. The trade-off is that you can't get skins with in game currency. You guys seem to have a good grip on that, so that's fine.

Within two years of playing LoL, there has never been a time where I felt I needed to spend money to get what I wanted. I've played Warframe for two weeks and it feels like I'm being squished under the impending need to spend money. I literally feel trapped between my desire to play this game, and my desire to save what little money I have. Ultimately, I think this is what will drive me away from this game, and it'll probably happen before it even gets out of beta.

In summation, I love this game so far. I think you guys have done such an amazing job creating this world, and I truly look forward to what you add to it in the future (more lore and storyline puhleaasseeee). Not only that, but I feel this game really has the potential to be so great. That said, your current F2P business model is going to be your downfall. It is going to drive a lot of possible customers away. This might be a F2P game, but unless we get lucky enough to pick up those blueprints, the players are forced into spending almost as much as they would on a new release at gamestop. Making players feel forced into spending money, even if they don't necessarily have to, is a bad thing.

you realy summed up what i feel right now. love the game, and i hope they read and consider what you said!

great post

[MJ12]

I do think that Catalysts and Reactors need to be deterministic as well.

By deterministic I mean you should be able to know exactly, more or less, how long it'll take you to get one. Balance them so a guy playing 2 hours a day can get 1 a week reliably and see how that works.

As a bonus this means you'll have more consistent Catalyst/Reactor purchasing and more data.

[Saekas]

But waiting essentially means waiting til around 5 am for a ? alert that might have a catalyst or reactor drop. It's true, you don't have to do anything and you can still play. But making that argument ignores the context of gameplay: the fact is, if you enter high level areas with a non-supercharged weapon, you are not going to do well. You are very likely going to have a very very rough time of it compared to someone with supercharged equipment. OP is right, the current system for free players is entirely luck based and entirely skewed at that. In my entire time playing Warframe (about a month) I've gotten exactly one catalyst. You literally cannot wait for a drop because there are no drops and you cannot say you can wait for an ? alert with a catalyst because they're thrown into a randomised bin where essentially everything else can drop as well.

I understand that in beta DE is trying to gauge usage of the cash shop. But to have the final product still follow the system that reactors and catalysts are at now would be incredibly discouraging for both paying and free players alike. Have I paid for catalysts? Yes I have. But do I want to keep shelling out 5$ everytime I want some items charged because there is in essence no other way to acquire chargers? Not particularly.

[SnoH]

I only really have 2 main gripes:

#1) Alert missions (yet alone alert missions with a ? reward) are way too random. I play as much as I possibly can between work and school, and in total since I started playing maybe 2 weeks ago I've seen a total of 10 of the ? reward missions.

#2) For a F2P game the conversion rate for RL currency > Plat seems a little low. At least it feels low when you take in consideration that to buy a warframe entirely with plat (let's use Ash for this example) you'd be spending roughly $25, or about the price of a used game for a console. For $25 in another F2P game, let's use LoL as an example since their model is brilliant. $25 will give you 3450 Riot Points. With that amount of riot points I can buy (using a baseline 975 for a champion not on sale) I can buy 3 champions and have 525 left which is enough for one of the cheaper skins that some champions have or enough for a champion or skin they put on sale. I honestly think the prices for some of the store items will hurt them in the long run if they continue to use the same conversion rate since personally speaking if I had the extra money to just throw around I still wouldn't see the value of buying a single warframe (bypassing the farming/crafting) for $25. The prices for the helms/reactors/catalysts though I believe are fine, those are 5 bucks and purely cosmetic (amusingly enough cheaper than most LoL skins which are purely cosmetic).

While we're on the subject of their pricing, should really consider adding a $20 teir for buying plat. Kinda lame that it goes 5 > 10 > 30 (especially when you consider you're only getting an extra 60 plat compared to buying $10 worth 3 times)

[neKroMancer]

It's human nature that we need certainty in order to feel secure. Relying on luck/RNG is against the nature of most people.

I agree that the current alert system isn't user-friendly since we do not know exactly when catalyst and reactor will drop and waiting for an indefinite time in front of the screen is impossible for most players. Most of us have RL to manage and live.

From the current system, I think we should have a time table for alert system. Perhaps a weekly or fortnightly table which tell player when the important things will drop. And make it repeat in an 8-12 hours interval. It doesn't have to specifically stated that it's the reactor/catalyst since players will be able to read the alert in the forum and have a chance to grab the blueprint in the next interval.

[shygddt]

You know what, why not just lengthen the time of the alerts? To say maybe about 3h or so.

Or even broadcast a catalyst/reactor alert to happen within a 6-hour time frame, would get people playing/staying up just to keep an alert. In the meantime, the frequency of such alerts can be decreased so that it's less frequent yet less random.

[NDroid]

I have to agree, relying on pure randomness to advance your frames and weapons beyond the half way point is not a good way to make players feel they are progressing. Most F2P games sell "shortcuts" that allow people to progress quickly by spending money but still allow all players to achieve the same thing by investing more time and effort. Right now that's not possible here because you know that catalysts and reactors only drop in random so for many who have reached the point where they need them to advance, there would be no point to login at all unless there's an alert, which will inevitably lead to less and less people playing the game.

I'm really enjoying Warframe but I hope this will be changed to allow the game to grow,