TinFoilMkIV
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Posts posted by TinFoilMkIV
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Firstly I must say between Movember, the upcomming world record attempt (I will be there), and the search for the legendary Prodman, this has been an awesome month.
Question 1:
For a long time I've personally felt that some really great level design has been put to waste by offering next to nothing of real value in loot containers. There are some really cool out of the way and hidden areas, but the payoffs for the time it takes to check these areas even when you know exactly where and how to reach them feels almost non existent. Are there plans to add more interesting or rewarding things to non-combat based loot? If I may add the syndicates seem like an excellent opportunity to add uncommon items or objects to out of the way areas that have value to players and rewarding those who like to explore.
If possible I would request that someone available take some time to look over this thread https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/340692-refining-the-syndicate-system/ . Although I recognize a distinct possibility that it has been seen and passed on, currently there is no evidence available on our side to know how well these ideas have been passed on if at all.
Question 2:
Syndicate mods, are you guys planning to add more creative and interesting effects for weapons as you get more time to work on them? What kind of cool things would you like to see from these going forwards?
Also in addition has there been discussion on properly categorizing weapons the way melee has so that we can add weapon type based mods to the options for syndicate specialties? I'd also hope this has/will be given consideration for the sake of mod function clarity.
Question 3:
What are your thoughts and the reasoning behind the notable delay after directional air melee and was this intentional? I personally feel this restricts melee more than necessary.
Also what are your thoughts on the limitations of downwards angled air melee? I love when I pull it off properly but I feel the angle is far too shallow before I get locked into a purely vertical slam attack.
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My constant worry with this kind of reward for every missions ever is that the ugly monster of Rushing would rear it's head again. I get that my change for capture amounts to basically the same thing, but I still maintain a healthy dose of worry at that level.
I think getting Reputation from completing the solar system would gimp players who did that arleady.
I'll look at it at some point, but I'm not really in a read mood lately. Thanks for the reference.
Rushing will always be an issue in some form or another. Endless/maximum enemy density nuking is basically just kill rushing as opposed to objective rushing. The goal isn't to play the game it's to get your objective/kills ASAP at all costs.
That's why I think we need a mixed system. Affinity to rep alone isn't that bad, the problem is that it only covers one aspect of the game and we have nothing else.
Rep for system/planet clears like the mastery for first time clears is questionable to me as well. As you said it sets up players to miss out by playing normally before they get involved in syndicates, which wouldn't be a good situation.
Also no rush, I've been there. As long as we keep up the feedback to let DE know what we want from our syndicates then hopefully the important stuff will get through.
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Heck yes, I know I'll be there.
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Yea we need more rep gain mechanics to favor different playstyles. The locker/box tagging idea is interesting, altho if we had to make a choice I'd rather have uncommon syndicate items from lockers/boxes that only spawn in the out of the way or hidden loot rooms. If the devs see fit to do both I'd be fine with that as well.
objective and bonus rewards including affinity orbs could definitely use some scaling as well as possibly bonus rep from special sources.
If you don't mind a long read this thread https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/340692-refining-the-syndicate-system/ has some fairly detailed discussion on expanding reputation and syndicate systems.
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Well a good step would be to take a trip over to the feedback forums and add to some of the discussions about syndicates. Even if you have nothing new to add, showing support for ideas you like helps to show DE what kinda stuff we're looking for. If you need a suggestion I'd recommend this thread https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/340692-refining-the-syndicate-system/ lotta text but also some interesting ideas on how to fix up the syndicates some.
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A new day for new discussion.
Anyways I've realized that for the specialty bonuses that were discussed on sigils we can have a separate item that uses the mechanics from dragon keys. An item type that you can only have one of equipped and grants a personal effect except in this case its a positive effect as opposed to the negative effect the keys have. Should be fairly straightforwards and uses an existing system.
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Agreed, rare caches are and awesome addition for those of us who like to find all those hidden areas they can spawn in, but honestly most of the time they don't really feel all that worthwhile to find.
Also we need some uncommon or special caches that don't have super amazing stuff but still have nice things for those of us who like searching them out, right now the "loot rooms" basically contain a few rounds and some pocket change.
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hmm I suppose having the highest tier bonus be the active one would work as well
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Maybe the more sigils you unlock for X syndicate will grant more point?
that is the general idea of where I'd like them to go with the sigil bonuses.
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The problem I see with the current lack of cooldowns is that our efficiency and energy levels can reach some pretty absurd levels on even non-caster frames allowing for some pretty silly chains of nigh invulnerability, permanent CCs, and constant map clears. Standard cooldowns probably aren't the right answer but I do also feel like we could possibly do with a change.
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I REALLY hope they code it so that once you buy a, say, Teir 3 Red Veil Sigil ALL of your Re Veil Sigils will receive that bonus. Because I agree that the bonus added will need to be something significant to be even worth this alternation, but I do NOT want to to use the Assassin Sigil to get the best bang-for-my-buck while running mission. I really just don't like how it looks.
Agreed on this point. I like unlocked bonuses with higher sigils, but I don't want to see them tied directly to the sigil itself
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True dailies I suppose pretty much are favors, they just don't feel that way since they're completely normal missions with a special line of text at the start. Outside of that tho our normal rep gains have no tangible connection to the syndicates in how we gain them.
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I feel ya. That's also why I say that what we really need are more (and hopefully interesting) ways to gain rep.
EDIT:
lol do you really play those try viver you will feel better only on VIVER
Viver is really just a bandaid to the problem that rep farming adds nothing new to the game and is currently uninteresting
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While I can see your point I'll have to disagree. If we scale the daily rewards directly with the requirements all this does is devalue normal rep gaining methods as they become less and less significant to the point where you just have x dailies to go till your next rank and that number is the same every rank. What we really need right now is more ways to gain rep beyond pure affinity to rep conversions and dailies.
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Glad to see more threads like this showing up. Guess I'll start at the top
Reputation - Not bad, I've had a similar idea with rep items myself but a bit different. Like you said have different aspects that offer rewards to different playstyles. I'd keep the affinity to rep for your killing spree type play, alone it's very lacking but as part of a larger system I think it works acceptably scaling with higher levels and offering reward for actually killing enemies in a mission instead of speeding past them. Then I'd add in some objective/completion based rewards, don't really have any specifics but definitely have objectives factored in. Finally for the syndicate items, these would be for the looters and explorers. The tilesets already have some really cool hidden and out of the way places that you generally won't wander into on accident. This is where we add some uncommon spawns with syndicate themed items. Things such as hidden data and equipment, or a dead operative. Most items would be directly related to a specific syndicate, altho some may be related to the larger factions which would also be of value to the syndicates. Then you could turn them in to the syndicate of your choice for whatever value it is to them.
Ranks - Well part of the "cruddy rewards" isn't directly related to ranks per se, but at the moment it does contribute. One idea that might help alleviate some of the negative view on items such as sigils would be to have split costs, with items having a combined cost of rep, credits, and possibly resources. This would leave room to have items such as sigils have a real cost without being a huge rep sink, and some of the more specialized mods and such would be more rep based. Personally I kinda like the sacrifices but that doesn't mean the system couldn't use some tuning. An idea I came across in another thread was to split rep into Honor and Favor, where Favor would be the currency form of rep used in the shop and Honor would be your rank up type rep, which would only be lost by participating in actions that your faction doesn't approve of. This could be combined with some special challenges that might contribute more towards your ranking but not as much as usual towards your currency perhaps? And others that do the opposite.
Sigils - I like the idea of sigil bonuses, I don't however necessarily like them being tied to the sigil itself. What I mean is have these passive bonuses, but instead of granting them while wearing the sigil, I'd grant at least things like rep bonuses while having any of that syndicates sigils equipped as long as you have the other sigil unlocked. I like the idea of specialty bonuses from specific sigils, but I'd put them as a new item possibly unlocked with the sigil that would work like the dragon key, one equippable in your equipment panel and grants a passive bonus for carrying it with you.
Rewards - I disagree here. I like the rep shop idea, although your way could work as well. The alert rewards are an interesting idea, not sure where I am on that one. I'd rather see our current selection expanded into more interesting items with some mid tier rewards instead of all aimed at players who have access to almost everything and can already handle virtually any mission. Something I'd like to see happen is get actual weapon types for our guns much like melee got with 2.0. Then add some category based mods to syndicates for their mid tier rewards being less specialized then their individual weapon bonuses.
Also if you have some time I'd recommend taking a look at this thread https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/340692-refining-the-syndicate-system/ has some pretty good discussion on what all we'd like to see from syndicates.
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A glad this thread came back up, I remember reading this a while back but didn't feel like I'd had enough chance to check out the syndicates to a point where I was willing to comment on the state of things.
My thoughts on sigils is this, there should be bonuses relating to acquiring more sigils within a syndicate, but not tied to the sigil itself. You should recieve a passive reputation bonus for each sigil unlocked but not require that sigil to be equipped to receive the bonus. Otherwise we end up with problems along the lines of the arcane helmets, where people wear sigils they don't like because it's "the best". I like the specialization bonuses mentioned earlier but I'd rather see that as a new equip slot, something like the auras where it is a special item that isn't physically seen but applies a personal bonus. Also these would preferably not be in the form of a mod or affect capacities and such whatsoever, more like the dragon keys where its something you carry and gain an effect from. Actually yea, basically like a dragon key but with a positive effect.
Faster rep? I'm okay with some minor bonuses, maybe tied to the above mentioned specialty items, but I wouldn't do anything too big. Instead I would prefer to expand on how we gain rep. We have the basic affinity to rep conversion for those people who like to go out and kill all the things, and that's fine. What we don't have is a system that benefits doing pretty much anything else. A few times the idea to have objective/mission completion based rep rewards has come up. This is good, put this on top of affinity based gains, not replacing. Also how bout all those cool hidden and out of the way areas that basically have a few extra rounds for your gun and some pocket change? Add some uncommon syndicate related objects that can spawn in and reward themed items such as recovered equipment or data that could be returned to the syndicate of your choice. Even if one method still comes out ahead at least players have a choice in how they like to play while still gaining noticeable amounts of rep. For a much more detailed thread on this sort of thing I'd recommend checking this out if you can handle your text https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/340692-refining-the-syndicate-system/
For syndicate missions I've heard some interesting things. I don't have much specifics to offer myself other than definitely expand on the syndicate dialogue and story.
I am also in favor of bumping up the rank at which a reactor/catalyst shows up as a requirement due to their limited and unreliable windows of time where they can be obtained in game. I'ts not unreasonable to expect a player to be able to pick up a few over time, but I'd put them higher up on the requirements.
Also as we expand the offering of the syndicates I'd like to see some more mid tier and less specialized rewards. Weapon and frame specific rewards are great, but some middle ground would sound good to me. Right now we have melee weapon types, which was primarily because it was required for melee 2.0. How bout we start categorizing our firearms? we already have category specific mods such as thunderbolt and firestorm, but they aren't always clear about their compatibility with things like the ignis or the attica. Right now we have; sidearms, sniper rifles, shotguns, and the "none of the above" category that is rifles. Not only would weapon categories clean up the game clarity a lot in terms of mods, but it would make room for factions to offer family and category based mods, such as things that apply to all "braton" type rifles, or all heavy pistols.
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Some really good stuff here. I really like the idea for splitting rep into Honor and Favor. A good idea that I could definitely see coming into play.
I'm a bit mixed on changing/removing offerings. They are supposed to be a real sacrifice to show your dedication, but on the other hand I know I'm biased due to being one of the older players who has this kinda stuff just sitting around. Not sure I can offer a good alternative that fits with that theme for now. The challenge idea certainly isn't bad but I feel it's missing something for being a trial to determine true dedication.
Mission/objective based rep rewards I like, however I wouldn't replace the affinity conversion with this myself. Personally I think what we need is a variety of methods to gain rep, the affinity works for people who just want to go out and kill everything, and the harder the things they kill are the better. The problem is that we don't have an alternative for people who like to do other things. I'd personally also like to see syndicate themed items or resources that can be found in out of the way or otherwise hidden areas as well that can be used to contribute towards rep and such.
Might check out this thread here https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/340692-refining-the-syndicate-system/ for some more detailed discussion on this sorta thing. There's a lotta text so I'd prefer to not have to attempt to paraphrase all the good points there if possible.
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Yea, one of the big problems is that the syndicates have virtually zero impact on our gameplay, other than renewing interest in extreme affinity farming. We get some 24 hour alerts with one line of special text at the beginning which is basically saying, "Here's a mission, we can't be bothered to tell you why, now go". Our rep gains are based on affinity, which means either do a farm run, which to be honest are pretty much the same thing regardless of what you're farming outside specific weapon/frame parts, or do whatever you would normally do, exactly the same way you'd normally do it, cept maybe care slightly more about affinity orbs and the bonus objectives.
I feel one of the biggest things we could add to renew real interest in syndicates is adding more interesting methods for gaining rep while playing. Of course we definitely need more dialogue both in syndicate related missions and in our interactions outside missions. Hopefully we can also get some syndicate content for hubs coming in the future. Having some syndicate themed obstacle courses or challenge areas outside of normal mission play would be pretty cool.
Anyways there's some pretty good discussion over here https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/340692-refining-the-syndicate-system/ about this kinda stuff in more detail. Fair warning, there's a lot of text over there which is partially why I don't particularly wan't to try and re write the main points.
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well according to the devs it's more like a rating for favors owed, where you call in the favors for the work you've done to gain access to resources the syndicate has. The problem is the current system doesn't really communicate this and doesn't really feel that way with how it works currently either.
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I can understand where you're coming from but the values seem way too extreme to me. If anything rep bonuses and such from mastery rank should be minimal. We have several systems that promote mastery, such as rank requirements, extractors, and reportedly the upcoming focus system. Admittedly what we currently have is minimal and in terms of equipment rank requirements is kinda a mess in some areas. High mastery ranks have an advantage as they at least in theory, should have access to high end equipment, mods, and game knowledge that gives them a big edge in acquiring or completing new content.
I think the problem is more that the current top rep gain methods are generally uninteresting and really nothing new, and everything else is so far behind in effectiveness you might as well not be gaining any rep at all.
In my opinion the solution for the current situation is to expand how rep gains work and what we get them from. I'd recommend giving this thread a read as there is some interesting stuff over here https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/340692-refining-the-syndicate-system/
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I wouldn't eliminate rep costs entirely but in another thread someone was saying it's a bit illogical for a symbol to further promote a cause costing you soo much rep when you already had to prove yourself before you can even get it. I wouldn't be against non-rep costs in the syndicate shops but I would go with mixed costs combining some rep with materials and/or credits, with some things like sigils perhaps being more material/credit based while others would be primarily rep based but still have some split costs.
Also I agree above that the problem more lies in our lack of ways to gain rep as opposed to the actual values we need. There's a pretty good discussion over here about expanding activities that award rep https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/340692-refining-the-syndicate-system/
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Also, veteran players are being completely hosed by getting nothing for their past efforts. I don't mean we should just get the mods, but we should have at least a partial boost to progress based on past gameplay.
The most critical shortcoming is that basing syndicate reputation solely off XP is oversimplified and does not reward the player for playing the game. Instead he is solely rewarded for hoarding XP, which naturally leads players to get to the most effective place for that.
Changing it all
Which alternative system for syndicate reputation may work?
Objective: rewarding players for playing everywhere, without having a grindfest in specific maps.
Proposed system: mission counter rewards
Instead of hundreds of thousands of points, initial reputation levels would be in the tens of points, and later levels in the hundreds. Same goes for syndicate rewards.
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Players conclave rating is 40 * (average enemy level).
. if the player falls intOn infinite missions, each reward tier achieved rewards one reputation point. This will grant similar rewards for playtime, regardless of playing a succession of single objective missions or an single infinite mission.
Advantages: Privileges all mission types with reasonable reward levels instead of 'pick up the highest XP per minute' mission.
Disadvantages: Has a bias toward rushing. This is an issue with the mission mechanics which privilege rushing, moreso than the syndicate system in itself. Even so, the rushing wouldn't be able to speed it up too much. It can be considered a minor issue, and depends on changing the structure of these missions to be fixed, which can be done later.
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Doubling your rep reward
The player would be able to try to double his rep reward. To perform that, the player would have to fulfill the following conditions:
The max. conclave rating of the player would have to be 20 * (average enemy level) (half of the plain reward).
If the player is using a frame which is favored by the syndicate, max. conclave rating gets a 15% bonus.
The syndicate mods (weapon and warframe) will NOT count towards the conclave rating for this purpose only.
Each owned sigil gives the player a 10-point bonus to conclave rating cap.
The player would have to be using at least one weapon which is favored by that syndicate.
The weapon(s) with the highest conclave rating must be the weapons favored by the syndicate the player is using. Weapon syndicate mods DO count towards weapon conclave rating for this purpose.
If and only if all these conditions are met, player gets double rep.
I disagree with the comment about veteran players getting shortchanged. It's the same when any new system/content is released, we shouldn't be handing out shortcuts to the higher end players, they already do have an edge in that they have the tools and access to various parts of the game that benefit their progress that others do not. I know it can be a pain to have to start at the beginning when you're far enough into the game to be at least near the end of a system/whatever, but we do have our advantages and I don't see a better answer for now.
As for the problem being the exp to rep conversion, I completely agree.
I have mixed feelings on conclave restrictions in missions. On one hand its the only player controlled power limiting rating system we have currently, but on the other it's terribly flawed in it's use as a power rating. For example, I am not physically capable of participating in the lowest conclave bracket because even with no mods my rank 30 warframes put me over the limit with any single weapon. Yet in the next tier I can go in with moderate durability and a single gun capable of practially vaporizing any fully equipped warframe in that bracket. If we're going to run on a rating system for content we need a way to scale down ranked frames and gear, so they either behave at reduced functionality, or we can only mod them out as if they were lower ranked.
The double rep challenge/requirements is an interesting idea, but I would be careful about giving too many bonuses towards favored frames or mission types, as it can end up feeling like you're being railroaded into a playstyle you don't like, or being forced to give up on your favorite faction to be able to get good returns on playing what you like. Weapons on the other hand I think there's more room to work with as there's enough room for variety and overlapping similarities that it could be made to work.
Overall the idea to have a system basing gains on playing appropriately leveled missions is a good idea, however...
I agree with your statement (Syndicate xp needs to be reworked) but not with your solutions.
You're just pushing it to the other extreme. instead of farming, it's rushing.
I think all we need is just more ways (other than enemy kills) to boost our rep gain.
I'm more in this area myself. I like the idea but not as a replacement to the current system. What we need is more ways to gain rep, not just replacing one basic system with another that still has a single favored style. The rushing issue is something I think the affinty to rep system actually handles decently as it at least promotes wiping out the enemy forces on your speed run to the objective, as opposed to minimum contact play.
I'd like to see something based on this mission completion idea added to the current rep gains system, so that we gain rep based on affinity as well as mission completion. I think it's fine that we have a basic system that rewards players that like to go out and just kill everything. What's not fine is that being the only answer to gaining decent rep,materials,drops,mods,etc...
The rep system doesn't need to be replaced, it needs to be expanded to have systems that reward different types of play. It's okay for one type to be the easies/most efficient/claimed best, as long as the others can at least compete. Right now we have power level tier affinity farming at about 20 laps ahead of everything else.
There's another thread with some pretty good discussion on this sort of thing if anyone cares to brave some rather lengthy walls of text https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/340692-refining-the-syndicate-system/
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Some interesting ideas here. They really do need to change the sigil system. They discussed in the Dev Streams that we do favors for them (rep) then we turn in the favors (rep) for stuff. How does it make sense that I do them favors and I have to turn in said favors to get a nicer looking sigil that only better promotes them, as a nicer looking sigil would only help promoting their cause even more than a crappy looking one. I can understand having to wait to unlock it as if I am a crappy representative they don't want me to negatively represent them.
Valid point, maybe it would be beneficial to switch to a system with combined rep and other resource/credit costs instead of purely rep costs, with things like sigils still having a rep cost but being a small cost in rep with it mostly being credits/whatever else.
Also good to bring up that we're supposedly doing them favors, while in the current system it doesn't feel like that at all.
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we also require mustaches for sentinels and kubrows
Mind Control Rendered Useless, Removal Of Player Choice
in General Discussion
Posted
Agreed, at the very least we should be able to end the mind control effect early.