OrionTCB

You are misunderstanding how armor works. Please figure out how to calculate EHP and adjust your opinion. Do you mean to say that going from 10k armor to 2k isn't only a DR% side of things, since total EHP is also reduced ? Yeah I know. Going from 10k armor to 2k (using 10 Corrosive stacks) reduces the total DR% of ~97% to ~87%, which means that if you have 10k HP, your EHP would go down from ~333k EHP to ~77k EHP → the whole thing got divided by ~4. Also, why should I "adjust" my opinion ? Because you feel it's wrong ? I don't think it is, I'm also not saying it's a good one, nor is it the best by any mean, but It's mine, I wrote everything knowing full well how the game runs so I will stand firmly. Now now, I don't need to point the obvious, reducing enemy EHP from 1/3 of a million to 1/13 is a huge gain, I'm not denying it, but I wasn't talking about your everyday armor and SP enemies, I was aiming towards "extremes", such as level cap SP where even if you go down from 1M armor to 200k on a 1M HP enemy, it's still stupid high (~3B to 667M EHP btw). The "threshold" I was referring to is hard to define, it would be like the exact moment where reducing armor (not 100% strip) won't do much anymore, like "stop bothering, just go 100% strip" or "why should I keep hitting this wall when I can just ignore it with bleed ?". It is also the exact same point where Corrosive dies. That's why I also suggested for a linear-curve 'cause I feel it's more manageable on DE's side and "easier" to grasp how much DR% you get from armor at a glance, someone pointed out how bad it would be, but I can't seem to see how, if it's managed well, there is no reason for it to fail (that might where the "bad" comes in, but Idk). Also, I still feel like that if Corrosive affected base armor instead of current (total), we wouldn't be talking about how armor is "too much". Since you also quoted my comment on frames, I'll say this : Warframes cannot go sky high, since none builds for armor (besides Rhino users) or health really (again, besides Inaros users this time), it doesn't matter, it's not worth investing into armor, 'cause 1) most frames have a base 33%-50% DR, that's already good enough and 2) we have Adaptation, Rolling Guard and Shield gating. Also, don't forget that at high level, no matter how much DR% you have (be it armor + adaptation and whatnot), enemies will simply start to oneshot you if you're not playing around the shield gating mechanic. Obviously, the DR% (or should I say EHP multiplier ?) having a cap is gonna solve a lot of high level problem.

I have a lot to say on this topic. It's gonna be a long read for the willing. There might be a lot of typos, sorry about that. Alright... It's great and all, but it creates weird cases ? I'll get more into it below. Besides the nice visual QoL to showcase weaknesses and resistances, this "streamlining" feels like it doesn't really change anything ? It's like renaming what already exists more than anything. Like, for Health types, Grineers have "Cloned Flesh", Corpus have "Flesh", Infested have, well, "Infested," etc. and basically, all will be renamed (streamlined) to "Health", but still will be per-Faction, so it actually will be "Grineer Health", "Corpus Health" and "Infested Health". One problem rises, Grineer also have "Machinery", Corpus have "Robotic", etc. They are used by machine-type enemies of their respective faction, but if they are streamlined to "Health", wouldn't it be weird ? With the current system, akin to a RPG, a Grineer Soldier is greatly affected by Viral (+75%), but a Roller is resistant to it (-25%), which is logic. So what about the new "Grineer Health" ? I don't get it, maybe it's a little more deep than that, but if it's gonna be a combination of both, wouldn't Viral be nerfed against Grineers altogether ? It'll become +75% + -25% = +50%. That's nice, BUT, isn't this just gonna worsen what already is on live ? Right now, we have builds for "Grineers & Corrupted" (A), "Corpus" (B) and the minority (like "Murmur", "Deimos", etc.) (C) which I feel like is already enough (and the max number of build slot per weapon/frame). Honestly, I don't want another "Deimos build", which is what you're diving into, eg: "Kuva Grineer", "Amalgam Corpus", "Venus Corpus", "Earth Grineer", "Outter Deimos Infested", "Derelict Infested", and so on. I like the idea, really, I like when things are (too) complex, but since you're supposedly making these changes for new players, it's weird ? Then again, I might be looking way too far, maybe a basic Grineer will have +75% viral and a Kuva Grineer will have +50% and that's about it, nothing more/less. At certain levels, it's not that "Armor Strip is that much more important", it's MANDATORY. You said it yourselves, Corrosive becomes useless so you have to bring a percentage-based max armor strip ability (Pillage, Tharros Strike, etc.) or a weapon (Latron Incarnon, Shattering Impact melee mod, etc.) to do its job. To make Corrosive effective, you have to bring 2 emerald shards which do not fit well on all builds/frames, like I'm not gonna have 2 emerald on Ember. Viral/Slash is king 'cause they ignore armor, simple. Why should I bother with a grineer at 97% DR (88% with Corrosive) when I can simply bleed it through its armor ? This also applies to Corpus, why bring Magnetic when Toxin exists, but whatever. Alright. The problem is that the current curve is non-linear, that's why Corrosive just dies at some point. At 100 armor we have 25%, at 200 = 40%, 300 = 50% and so on until it reaches the "threshold". At 1000 we have ~77%, 2000 = ~87%, 3000 = ~91% and at 10000 = ~97%. An Exo Gokstad Officier (only RJ) has +1M armor at level cap which is 99.97% DR, that's a ×3339 damage loss. Yikes. The current curve makes it so that too much armor isn't necessary on frames. Why bother going above 300 (50% DR) ? It's too hard to reach the next "good threshold". Enemies on the other hand can stack up armor to +10k and it'll never be bad. Here rises the Corrosive problem, it does wonders on non-SP missions, but at some point, like on SP Zariman, a Kuva Elite Lancer (from normal path) goes from 836 armor (~74% DR) to 8640 armor (~97% DR) (maths may be a little off) and with 10 stacks of Cor, it goes down to 167 (~36%) and 1728 (~85%)... Yeah, not that great for SP. The gap between ~97% DR and ~85% DR is still huge, but it's a ~×10 damage loss after Cor. Yeah, Viral/Slash is god. Then, what about a linear curve ? Like every 10 points of armor is 1% DR ? At 100 = 10%, 300 = 30%, etc. until reaching the newly added cap of 90% (?) at 900. Could be even 100 points = 1% DR for more precision ; 1 point would be 0.01% which is good enough. This curve should also apply to Warframes. Obviously, a linear curve would require to change every single armor value of every single mob in the game to mimic the past DR value. If a mob had 300 armor (50% DR), it would go up to 500 (50% DR), if one had 10k armor (too much% DR), it would be capped to 900 (90% DR), etc. Scaling will also be affected, but with a max cap, it doesn't matter much anyway. Now, Corrosive will always be good ! A Grineer had 500 armor ? goes down to 100 (from 50% to 10%), it had 900 armor ? goes down to 180 (from 90% to 18%). Viral/Slash will obviously still be king, but not as much a now, you won't have to build for viral/slash. Note : a simplier way would be to make Corrosive affect the base armor instead of total armor, much like Shattering Impact. Alright. Following what I already wrote, with a linear curve, you could implement a per-Faction/Planet minimum armor. I'll be ignoring Corpus and normal Infested of course. On earth, a Grineer might have a min. cap of 200 armor (20% DR), but on the Kuva Forteress, it could go up to 300 or 400 (30% and 40%). Alright. Are you seriously comparing Grineer EHP which scales off of a multiplier and Corpus EHP which is basically 2 health bars ? Also, high level Corpus have the exact same problem as high level Grineer, at some point, you won't do s to shields unless you play a specific build or, you guessed it, use a shield stripping ability ! Cool, but pointless. None likes to fight against Corpus, y'know, 'cause of their shield and nullifier, all that (I'd say I am a caster more than a shooter, so it bothers me the most). Also Toxin exists, it ignores shields, so who gives a f about Magnetic ? But more on that later. As a damage type, it's really bad, so give it some love. As for the status effect, stop running away from the inevitable, just make Blast go Boom, do AOE damage, that's all we want, anything else will be utter s, and you know it. Look at its state right now, it does literally nothing, even Impact has a greater impact (heh) ; opening to finisher was a great idea. I have some suggestions. I am by no mean a game designer, but I did play the game for thousands of hours and my personal knowledge of RPG mechanics should back me up (I'm not saying I know it all or know the game better than the devs, I am but a mere mortal). 1) Fuse / Ticking bomb : Blast does AOE damage at max stacks or when duration ends. The max number of stack would be either 5 or 10. Stacks are removed upon explosion and apply a hidden secondary status which applies the same effect as before : accuracy reduction. Counts for CO. This status is applied to the main target and all enemies around. Base damage would be based off the weapon/ability damage (like any other damage dealing status). Each stack adds damage to the AOE damage. Could be either: A raw gain, like +100 per stack (objectively bad), A % of damage dealt (the instance which added the stack), Another % of the total weapon/ability damage. Has a base radius of 3m. Each stack adds either .6m (if 5 max stacks) or .3m (if 10) up to a cap of 6m. Pretty much like Gas. Since it's a one-time boom, base radius could be increased to 5m and increases up to 10m at max stacks. 10m is the same radius as the Concealed Explosives mod. Explosion should knock down light enemies and stun heavier ones. Or knockdown everyone, no matter the "weight". DOES NOT RAGDOLL. I REPEAT. IT. DOES. NOT. RAGDOLL. Ragdoll is one the bane of the game, it's fun but it's also kinda bad. Look at poor Atlas, unable to punch ragdolled enemies for who knows why. 2) *Click* : Blast starts as inactive, then get primed on hit and does AOE damage. Has no stack. When an enemy gets a new Blast status, it starts as inactive and does nothing (counts for CO). The next time the enemy is hit (by anything), the status gets primed and explodes. On explosion, enemies around (not the main one) get a new inactive Blast status. There should be an internal cooldown (0.2s) to avoid recursive explosion. A primes B, B primes C but not A, C primes A but not B, etc. The cycle repeats itself. Like 1) it should add the accuracy reduction status to self and enemies hit by the explosion. Damage would be either based on the source which added the status or the one that primed it. Radius would be either always at 5m or scale with damage. From 100 to 1000. ≤100 = 3m, from 101 to 999 scales up to ~6m and ≥1000 = 6m. 3) Qorvex : Blast does AOE damage everytime a stack is added. No stack limit, but effects cap out at 10 ? Each stack has an independant duration (like Bleed). Like 1) it should add the accuracy reduction status to self and enemies hit by the explosion. Damage would be based on the source which added the status. Damage increases for each stack. This would be lowest of the 3. Radius starts at 2.5m and rises to 5m at 10 stacks. F'in finally ! A whole decade of waiting ! I do hope that freezed enemies are stunned for the whole duration, otherwise it's pointless. Also, is there an internal cooldown to freeze ? Or as long you inflict cold status it stays frozen ? As a bonus to make it even better: Freeze could do a % damage based on current/max enemy health when proc'd (so only once per freeze). Freeze could also weaken shields. Since Cold is a part of Magnetic, it's only natural. It is also more accessible than Magnetic and less Corpus-focused. Shields take 33% of their current value as raw damage. Applies a Magnetic-like shield damage amplification effect but only +50% (whereas Magnetic starts at +100%). I'm not that much of a Gas user, but everytime I see a Gas build it's used for the meme effect ? Idk much about it, but it was fun when it did Toxin damage instead of Gas damage. The problem with Magnetic is not the status itself, it's its uses. It kills shields and nothing else. Ofc, it was changed to cripple shields and it does its job, kinda poorly at that. But that's not the worst part ! Why bothers damaging shields when you can ignore them !? Just use Toxin. Much like Slash ignores armor, Toxin ignores shields. Like I said with Cold, Toxin is a much easier element to use on build, you don't need 2 mods and it's flexible 'cause it goes into either Gas, Corrosive or Viral, which 2 of them are the best against Grineer. The main difference tho' between Viral and Magnetic is that, Magnetic only works on Corpus, Viral works on everything. Everything that has "Health" is subject to Viral. Magnetic only affects "Shield". Who uses "Shield" ? Bosses, but you won't even think about using Magnetic against them. Some Sentients, but same as Bosses. All Corpus-related enemies, which includes : Corpus (wow), some Corrupted and Amalgams. Would I bother using Magnetic against them when I have Toxin ? No. Will I bother after the update, absolutely not. And that's mostly due to the fact that I don't like fightning Corpus. So, what can be done to revive Magnetic ? Not much I'm afraid. But again, here are some suggestions: 1) Good on everyone and everything, not just Corpus ! Magnetic should work like Viral AND Corrosive, both at the same time, but for shields. Viral : It already does that, amplify damage done to shield. Corrosive : It should reduce shield for each stack, at 10 stacks, 80% of shields are removed and at 14 (not yet possible), 100%. On non-shielded enemies (includes Corpus who lost all their shields), it should jam their weapons for the duration (think Mesa's Shooting Gallery). At 10 stacks, maybe disarm them altogether. Don't think about logic here, Slash makes robots bleed oil, I get the idea but wtf ? Robots and machines should be first slowed up to 9 stacks and then stunned at 10. 2) Void's Bullet Attractor (might be too much of a hassle on the large scale of things). Remove Bullet Attractor from Void and use it on Magnetic instead. What about Void then ? Idk, make a new 'Void burn' status effect which reduces defences (armor and shield) by a % for each stack ? It should still destroy shields, obviously.

Just encountered one of many host migration issue with the Corrupted Jackal ; it refused to die. First, the host left on the 'quit or continue' screen, nothing wrong here. Then, we got tp'ed to Jackal area, still, nothing wrong here. While looking for decree fragments (2/3), the new host left, leaving me and another player. At first glance nothing would go wrong, but when the other player tried to parazon finish (first parazon ever) the Jackal, it refused to "die" and go to the next phase. This would go on until the time limit (never seen it before). We both tried to parazon him, one after the other and even let ourselves be killed to try and reset the Jackal. You can guess that it didn't lead to anything and we both lost our Circuit progression (not much on my part, Idk about the other player tho'). Others details would be that as Styanax I removed the Jackal's whole armor and the other player was a Revenant. Also, I was the new host, but my internet is pretty good. I don't have anything more to say, I guess it has to do it all with host migration. Jackal literally too angry to die.

I agree, but I have seen what DE did over the years (~9 years now), they RARELY backdown on stuff like this. I remember when Limbo got transformed into DIO, it was super fun, but the "projectile are frozen in time for both enemies and players" part made him disruptive, so he got smacked, I get the reason why, some times after this (or at the same time, can't remember), his ult could nuke entire rooms 'cause it did damage based on %max health of all enemies inside it. It was also super fun, but didn't last even 1 week, not sure either. It's been years. They NEVER reverted any nerf toward it. On the same topic, Khora's whip could go through walls, nerfed, never reverted. Melee hits could aswell, never again. Spin2Win died with Maiming Strike, I had fun with it but got boring. Berserker (before it got renamed to Berserker Fury) was a must have, it died 8 years after its release, it got replaced with Primed Fury on every single build. Explosives weapons (such as Bramma and Zarr) got their ammo killed, everyone complained (mostly the Monkey spammer), did it get reverted ? No. I'm not defending DE here, just devs as a whole. Devs don't make decisions, the market does. Also, devs have pride in what they do, if they think that what they did is for the best, then it is, we have no say in their business. If they do get financial losses and their image gets damaged, maybe they'll do something. Honestly I don't have much faith in DE since Reb took charge, it got better recently, but here we are. I agree. Overguard was the main target. Personally I think it gave a little too much OG (I'm playing Dante since release as of now) compared to Styanax/Frost's Augments. I know, they're Augments, they are optional, so they shouldn't give too much, while Dante is the official OG spammer, so it's obvious he's the best at OG generation. There was NO reason to give Tragedy a LOS check. I'm sure it's mostly due to low level nuking, you cannot do that on SP (unless they're primed, etc). Look at Nova's 1st Augment when fused with Titania on Fissure, it got killed. Why ? 'cause it killed low levels too fast for its own good I guess. I miss it, but whatever. I mean, it's not that bad, yeah LOS as a whole sucks and its implementation sucks even more, but so what ? If that's how the game's supposed to be, so be it, what can you do besides complaining and almost sending not-alive threats to the devs (I'm not saying someone did, you get the idea, right ?). Was it a mistake to add LOS, nah, Dante is still strong af (not Mirage/Saryn strong but he's still pretty good) ? Is it a $&*^ move to change a product after someone paid real money for it ? Absolutely. You have all the rights to compalin, please do. If you can, ask for a refund, maybe they'll do it. Sue them even if that's what you want to do (might be extreme). I have made a post earlier in this thread right here. What I meant it as literal, I have not read +750 messages. I may have read up to 100, but it was all the same ; Dante's Tragedy got nerfed for nothing. OG is disruptive, it's getting fixed next time, good. Nezha got reborn then killed, $&*^ move. Eximii (plural for Eximus) are now immune to all CC, that sucks as well. I know very well why LOS is garbage, I have seen it, I tested it on every single Warframe before I made my first post on the subject. I abhor LOS as a whole, If it was me, I would remove LOS from many spells. It would create chaos, but what about it ? It's a PvE game, PvP doesn't exist (Conclave should be removed at this point). Only new players and wanna-be always first will complain that a Saryn destroyes everything. I have never complained about it, I like it. My mindset on this is "cool, another player does everything for me, I don't have to do anything like I usualy do, I can chill". That's just childish. I may have missed stuff, but I will make my point clear. I don't like LOS, at all. Do I think it should be removed ? Maybe, if they do that's cool, I'm all for it, if they don't, that's too bad, I mean what can I do, I already complained about it. DE made several changes on the game that I would like to be reversed, but they never did. Maybe this time they will 'cause the amplitude it took was way over the top. If it does 👍. Also, the YT gaslighting is sad.

I haven't read the ~750 replies on this post, so it may have already been pointed out and/or suggested, but I did see some posts suggesting ways to fix the current LOS problem. Personally, I would find it best to keep LOS at this point, I don't think DE will (and should) break. I mean yeah, it makes them look bad 'cause "they don't listen to the community", but devs shouldn't blindly do what the community wants them to do. There are times where devs should bend the knee, but I don't think this the one. I still think this was a bad move on DE's part ; the change was rushed and greatly impaired Dante's nuking capabilities because the applied LOS check was utter garbage. Anyway, keep the LOS as is, just fix it for real. As of now, Dante's model/hitbox blocks the LOS check (this includes Warframes and bodies). This is just ridiculous. Now, the suggestion that I have seen spread and that I'm most content with: For records, I have already read 100th of messages and posted 1 (now 3) myself here : And also, since someone misunderstood me (this post may or may not be badly worded), I made a clear response of my POV :

Many have said (like myself) that the overguard change won't do anything. DE missed the mark. Like someone already said, I highly doubt that DE will revert the LOS requirement. I still think that it's a bad move, 1) LOS is broken 2) Why not Saryn, Mirage, etc. ? Why just Dante ? Maybe in the future they will get their due and simply disappear from the game, but right now, Dante took an underserved shot. Either, apply diminishing return, reduce range to mimic Dark Verse (30m → 20m) or reduce damage multiplier (×3 → ×2). I know, as of now, DE is currently looking into LOS to fix it once and for all, maybe ? It's just too bad, but won't change too much. I'll hijack this post to redirect to the comment I made on the hotfix post.

Wordwarden buff is welcomed. Overguard nerfs were obvious and won't change anything. Pageflight's hidden effect won't be missed I guess ? But, Tragedy's LOS requirement is a bad move. Yeah, the spell is good, it's an ultimate ability, it should be strong. You could've nerfed its range to match Dark Verse (30m → 20m) and/or its damage multiplier (×2 instead of ×3). It doesn't help that LOS check is garbage in this game, there's a lot of inconsistency that many other players have already mentioned. Now, why do I think it's a bad move. One, this is a nerf for a nerf, there's no other reason behind it, just to keep the "muh balancing philosophy" intact. Do not even try to pull out the "it's disruptive" card, look at Saryn. Second, what about those then : they do not need any LOS. Some may just be inconsistency, blame Simulacrum. You could argue that for some of them, physic does the trick (Banshee). But Dante's Tragedy uses Void magic, it goes through space and time, so nothing related to "physics" and "logic" is valid here. Be consistent. If Equinox's bleed goes through walls, why not Dante's ? If you were to apply LOS check on every frame 'cause of ~muh balance~, frames like Banshee (who has no ult) should simply be removed from the game and Saryn (one of the strongest frame, ever) would suffer. An explosion (like a bomb, Zarr/Bramma), should be blocked by LOS. Banshee's abilities shouldn't ; waves travel through matter, etc.