Sunder
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Posts posted by Sunder
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3 minutes ago, (PS4)Taishin_Ishu said:
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Of course, at the end of the day DE has final say of what goes on.
But how many times in the past has the community voiced displeasure with someone in game in order to get it looked at? Many of us know it's up to them, but that doesn't mean we can't voice our displeasure with certain choices and roads DE has taken and propose fixes and/or alternatives.
At least, that's what I've been trying to do so far in this thread among a few others elsewhere.
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1 minute ago, Dark_RRiderr said:
Allright allright i really needed to laugh loud for a moment reading that as the bot kicked for that reason.
But why making a big deal about it? Just needs to be corrected or something and its all good.
Plus.... come on be honest, you wanted to trigger this didnt you? 😄
Unfortunately you'll have to read the meat of this thread to understand why it's 6 pages long with so many views.
A number of community members have issues with how the chat filter, kickbot, and community moderators go about their business. Some are voicing their displeasure, many are missing the point, and others are proposing changes/fixes to it all.
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8 minutes ago, SyBuhr said:
Yes, they do (or should) have a legal team. I don't know how that team is paid, so are they paid per word? If so, they might make it as lengthy as possible. These are just questions that, really need to be thought about before moving forward with an idea.
If they are paid-per-word, what stops them then from making this really lengthy contractual agreement, that could potential be riddled with holes? Making amended contractual agreements must have some draw-backs to it, otherwise it'd be a really cost-effective way to handle the issue (Considering they wouldn't have to have made Kick-Bot, or request moderators, they could have just thrown a clause in regarding the given filter and be done with it).
Again, I don't know much (if anything) on that front regarding a business and legal practices, as I've never owned a firm or a business and then employed a legal counsel.
How it often works in the US at least when contracting a lawyer for something like this is you pay them for their time spent. They have to research laws and know the phrasing and the likes. Then pretty much give you word for word what is required to get the point across, and cover your own ass, lol. Honestly any competent lawyer up there should be able to do the research and give them the information they need within a week.
Which again, I can't imagine would cost much for a company of this size at all.
12 minutes ago, Magneu said:-Snip-
Honestly the idea was proposed to solve the filter issue and make everyone happy in addition to cut down on the chat bans/suspensions.
The basic filter being used to stop curse words, and phrases like, "Go K**l yourself" and the likes of that. Of course being part of the basic filter this could be turned off. Cause let's face it, sometimes you get bugged in game and the only way to fix it is to let enemies end you. Your personal filter could censor or maybe even simply remove posts containing your personal "trigger words". Like in chat if you ask, "Where's borko" your chat is erased and you get an automated PM from kickbot about correct spelling and when he's due to arrive.
With both the basic filter and your personal filter disabled only a select few things I could imagine would be suspension worthy. Even then I'd prefer it if we were notified and warned before being kicked/suspended. DE themselves could decide on how many times your chat is erased/warned before you receive a suspension. Bans however should only come from actual people though.
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11 minutes ago, (PS4)Zero_029 said:
In a perfect world that would work well. (I did read your comment!)
But unfortunately we're in a world where everyone is made of porcelain.
People can no longer stand:
- To be disagreed with
- Proven Wrong
- Be called any form of name.
- See any form of Hate/Racism. (Even if it isn't directed at them.)
- Be held accountable.
etc...So while your system would work (in a perfect world) people are too sensitive, stubborn, ignorant, & downright lazy to ever enact it.
Even then, there will be those few lucky ones who would find some way to sue DE over it. DE could play the "They chose not to censor it." card, but...
Well you're intelligent so you already know where I am going with this. So I'll spare us the speech.The legal issues could easily be implemented in time after review by a lawyer to the games User Agreement and Terms of Service
And of course, a basic filter would be implemented by default. We have the filter now and by default it is on but many choose to disable it...then in the same breath complain about the text they in-game. Granted DE covers their bases? It could work. Those who choose to be offended or get angry? Get replied with a simple automated message with instructions on how to use the personal filter system.
Pandering to the offended will only lead to more people calling out that they're offended as a result, to double standards, and to an ever growing list of words and phrases as time goes on. Not to mention all the support tickets and issues people have with being kicked/banned for what they believed was harmless joking around or accidents.
14 minutes ago, SyBuhr said:This is something that would require a legal team to draft up. I am not all-to-with-it when it comes to legal-fees, counsel, and costs over all for big business like this, especially in the cyber-domain, but I expect a decent draft up to be fairly expensive. Still entirely possible for DE to handle, if I think about it, and might be more applicable than the other suggestion in the thread where the information is Stream-lined to a hired Moderator to review.
See above - They obviously had to have some sort of legal team draft up the Terms we agreed when we made our accounts and started playing.
I can't imagine making an amend to it would be all that difficult nor expensive.
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2 minutes ago, (PS4)Zero_029 said:
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Which is why I proposed the following. Solve all the issues at once. Everyone censor what they personally don't like.
1 hour ago, Sunder said:I've posted this among reddit and another forum thread. It's in regards to the state of the in-game chat and how moderators and kickbot goes about things.
First off
There's nothing wrong with "Nezha is a tr*p". What of all the trans folks, femboys, twinks, manly-women and cross-dressers who HAPPILY refer to themselves as traps? Just because one group is so against it DOESN'T mean everyone is. Generalizing and targeting people for this is doing nothing but making hypocrites out of those who enacted it in the first place.
SecondlyWe.Have.A.Chat.Filter.
Seriously. Use it.
DE should be pushing for use of that instead. Instead of trying to protect every group who cries out they're offended, be a good parent to the Tenno and let them handle it themselves. People are going to disagree on matters eventually. Humanity is not a hive-mind. We have preferences and sometimes they may not line up with the preferences of others. If you don't want to see harsh words then enable the filter. They could even go as far as to let players personally add in their own phrases and words that would become censored. Boom. Everyone's happy.
Lastly
Ignore feature. It exists. Use it people.
Instead of trying to maintain some nonsense of a "high road" and not be "petty", just ignore the user who's spouting something you don't like. Simple as that. If this user in particular is targeting a specific player and breaking the TOS, simply report, THEN ignore. Or as previously mentioned, add what they're saying that you don't like to your own personal, locally saved filter.
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We hold the tools to ensure we have a pleasant experience in-game. We don't need more censorship. We need less by default. We need the option to censor it ourselves. And to be honest I feel as though maybe they should go as far as to implement this into the tutorial. Have Ordis explain that there's people of all opinions and beliefs and such out there in the solar system. To maintain low stress levels make use of his filter/ignore features. If that's too much work, create a simple message Ordis delivers to your inbox upon getting the orbiter.
And if players are directly attacking another player? That's when the chat mods should come into effect. Their actions monitored to ensure an unbiased ruling. Having mods not defend their personal beliefs/opinions and simply encourage the use of in-game methods of censorship would free up a lot of their moderating interactions with the community. And in the rare case, support would have to step in. If there's not enough mods? Put more on the team.
Really would prefer to see Warframe NOT become another place to walk on eggshells because of context. Having to stay silent and not interact with the community simply because while I think what I'm saying is an innocent phrase or maybe a joke between me and a friend? Someone else takes extreme offense.- - -
I can only hope this logic resonates with others and catches the eye of someone from DE.
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Just now, SyBuhr said:
DE staying silent could also be seen as Fence-Sitting, which is sort of what I referred to.
I do think those that "Step-outta-Line" should face a ramification of equal value (THE LAW OF EQUIVALENT EXCHANGE).
The harm in a self-implemented system is that, it is then entirely to the user. When it comes to Business/Politics, DE needs to show that they themselves are offering a means to mitigate "Hate-Speech", because such speech is illegal, and if they do not show that, then they could be accused for enabling it, and so on (Also issues with Market-demographics, Wide-range Marketability, etc.). What happens if I forget to censor a word, and see it, and then commit some atrocity? That's the short-coming of the idea. And it sucks, because I agree with your statements. But there are legal battles that would then arise from it, and that's just how it is currently. Maybe a few years, those things will change, but until the political environment does, we shouldn't expect anything less or more.
The filter is ridiculous, I don't think many here disagree on that sentiment. I think, however, that DE does need to provide something to show that, in the event legal issues arise, so that they can remain as a business.
Hate speech is a problem in and of itself. Obviously there are certain things that would be censored by the default filter. We have to disable it ourselves as it's automatically On.
To mitigate the issues your brought up could be as easy as amending the TOS and/or User Agreement. That by disabling the default filter put in place by DE, we are willfully subjecting ourselvse to possible "Harmful" content. And again, tack on the ol', "Online interactions not rated by the ESRB". And of course, what I mentioned earlier, how long till someone starts claiming every little thing is "Hate Speech" cause it's a joke about a very particular demographic? We're heading into a black hole here.
This is a way to at least halt the process.
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1 minute ago, Midrib said:
In general i'm fine with the Blacklisted words although some are unreasonable, but the ban time pretty ridiculous 1-2 week chat ban for a word is beyond excessive. Simply put the punishment doesn't fit the "crime".
And judging by the recent blog post that was shared in the article, and a certain DE employee with the habit of extending those bans with a good ol' " Here's some more time to reflect on yourself since you clearly haven't learned" combined with your community managers essentially turning a blind eye to it, its safe to assume that its not something that will be addressed soon.
Its such a silly thing that could just be dodged by lowering the ban time but its going to be ignored and sidestepped till it gets them enough backlash that they'll be forced to deal with it. there is nothing to gain from having these levels of chat restrictions.
Personal filters would solve this. Stop the banning, stop the silent kicks, stop the chat suspensions.
- Basic filter by DE
- Personal customizable filter we edit ourselves (Saved locally)
- Encouragement from DE to use the filter/ignore feature.
We possess most of the tools to solve this chat censorship ourselves. We just need the last part. Personal filters.
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3 minutes ago, SyBuhr said:
DE shouldn't take a stance, but today's world, money, everything revolves around politics. Who you partner with, what they do, everything. Including law-suits. If someone gets offended, gets a rally going for them, DE will feel the burn (hypothetically). Even the stance of "We should say whatever we want!" is technically political in nature, as it argues against other ideas. DE could Sit on the Fence, as you suggest, but that has its own pit-falls, too.
You cannot avoid it, it will always creep in some-how, no matter how hard you attempt to suppress it. The best you can hope for is that, when it does occur, it is very minimal. In this sense, the a machine is great, though still flawed to it's creator's designs
Then think about it.
DE stays silent. We assume they're siding with the failed moderators. We continue with phrases and words being added onto the filter as times goes on and people find more phrases and slang words they're offended by.
Or
DE cuts the insane filter, implements a basic one instead and tells people, "Censor what you want. It's up to you". It's a bold move sure and bound to raise some eyebrows. Specially people who might freak out against them who already agree with the current filter system....but what's the harm? They re-add those phrases/words to their own personal filter.
I still fail to see any issue with this idea.
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1 minute ago, Legion-Shields said:
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Just now, YpsitheFlintsider said:-snip-
You're both missing the point. AND going off topic.
Kickbot is just that most of the time. A bot. It cannot handle context.
As such, the filter system is shown as being ridiculous. Which it is. Censorship has reached higher levels than previously and it's due in part because both people from DE and community moderators are influencing and adding onto the filter both words AND phrases in attempts to stomp out offensive chat. Problem is either not everyone is offended by it, or it can be used/meant in a different way. So regardless OP's intentions when posting that, it's proved a valid point regarding our current system.
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1 minute ago, SyBuhr said:
I agree with this, but it raises ethical concerns that could seriously impact DE. If they don't show they themselves are implementing a system against "hate-speech", what do you think will happen? (That's a serious question, because the range/scope of that is gigantic.)
DE doesn't and should not take a stance politically what-so-ever. Any company/industry knows that just alienates and disrupts the community in a LARGE way. They've already changed the Free-to-play system. Why not do it again with how people treat speech? If they come out and say, "We're having a basic filter put in, but we want to give YOU the tools to censor what YOU consider hate-speech."
Well that'd just change the game. Something no one's really done...and in today's day and age? Something that might even be necessary. Everyone's offended by something it seems. If someone who supports LGBT right feels as though, "Trap" is a word they don't want to see? Let them censor it. However when that same crowd calls someone a "Cis-male" or "Typical white person", in a derogatory context.....how is that any different? Double standards and minority groups play no part here when the objective is to make ALL feel welcome when playing Warframe.
As previously mentioned, DE would have it's own basic filter which would block out the usual curse words and maybe some select few others. But the personal stuff should be just that....personal. Encouraging the community (Which Warframe is constantly hailed as having one of the best around) to handle it themselves? It's the only way out that leaves everyone satisfied.
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3 minutes ago, SyBuhr said:
We are talking about a business practice, you know.
So things like "cost", "hire", and "paying them" are crucial points. As we can see, the volunteers clearly do little to nothing from what Pent_ says.
That's my point.
If you want Quality, you need to pay someone. When it comes to this, you have to ask yourself several questions:
- If they are volunteers, what is their schedule, if they have any? (Hours of Operation)
- Are they strictly held to those tasks, and if they miss doing them, are they removed?
- Are they purely moderating those chats, or are they spending time doing other things in the game?
There is also the extended ethical concern of how Volunteers represent the company, from a business standpoint.
Yes, it would be just as cost-effective to have more people be conned into spending their time moderating chat logs, as opposed to Kick-Bot, until a player gets angry with someone else and begins to report them non-stop, or have followers do the same.
As it stands now, why would I want to volunteer my time to moderate chat-streams, make quick decisions, at no pay, for potentially hours on end, instead of playing the game?
Where as if you hired someone, you'd have knowledge of:
- Their hours of operation
- Confidence that they are strictly held to those tasks (hopefully).
- They are (hopefully) not doing anything other than moderating the chat.
- Are being at least paid for their time, for an absolute awful job.
Again, if DE paid more people to do this, these things? Wouldn't be an issue, because you'd have people who are purely doing it as a job, are representing the company entirely, and are not managed by any other means than internal management.
A valid point, but all the more reason to ditch the current system, have a very basic filter with the option to create and add to our own personal filter.
These moderators as well as DE could, --instead of constantly picking apart cases and running through tickets of bans because of chat, be able to do one thing.
Simply refer the player to the filter/ignore system.
As it is now, the over censorship is annoying, and at times? Hurting the community.
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1 minute ago, (PS4)Taishin_Ishu said:
Putting censorship in the hands of the players is like putting a menu in the hands of toddlers. No good comes of it, and then we'd just have Forum threads about people fighting each other over why this or that word doesn't/does belong there.
Regardless, this case is niche at BEST and is obviously just DE trying to filter a word that MIGHT get used to bypass their filters. The bots are not AI, they are just basic bots with pre-determined triggers.
This whole thread should just have been a ticket to Support to clear it up and the ban would be lifted, no doubt. This is just ....ugh. Stop finding reasons to bash DE over nothing.I think you miss the point. The game would have it's default own filter that is enabled by default like it is now. IN ADDITION, every player would have their own personal "Filter list" where they can type in phrases or words that they do not want to see. This list would be saved locally and not server side. So if for example, you put on your personal censor list, "Booty" to be a censored word to show up as "*****", and I did not add that to my own personal censor list, I'd see it, you wouldn't.
My post above is not intended to bash DE. But to fix and alleviate issues between players, DE, kickbot and chat moderators.
I fail to see any drawbacks aside from the small amount of time it'd take to implement such a feature.
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Just now, SyBuhr said:
The only unreasonable thing with this post is the hiring-more-people part. Is it cost-effective for DE to do that? Probably not.
Every thing else though, is the general community consensus.
They haven't hired anyone. Moderators are volunteers.
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Many people have been asking for this. On Wednesday we had an update with a few touch ups to Arcanes.
DE is ignoring us about this. They have some reason they're not saying for not giving us an option we had all along, that'd be VERY easy to implement and has ZERO negative impact on us as players.
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Now-a-days DE is likely against it simply due to a number of reasons.. Aside from how long it'd take to make the models due to creative decisions, and actual 3D modeling time....there's too many folks who are advocates to PC culture that'd likely have issues and comments. Sadly you give them an inch, they wants miles and miles and miles...
The amount of people that would moan and complain over how feminine or masculine the swapped model would look, the people that would bring up grievances with idle animations not matching the "feel" of the frame, or even the folks who'd bring their own insane PC agenda and try to make the frames all about sexual identity and orientation. I'd rather keep Warframe about Warframe. And not turn into a simulation of people saying, "This is my trans-Chroma dragonkin piloted by a genderfluid asexual operator. Their pronouns are xe and xir and they/them." There's just way too much work that'd only likely lead to drama and people's complaints to warrant gender options.
Disclaimer: Nothing against people who identify as....whatever. It just doesn't belong as the focus of this game.
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There's been vocal feedback about arcanes not being able to be de-ranked and yet with today's update they haven't even acknowledged it. Mark my words, when it IS finally brought up on a Dev Stream or something? All we're gonna get is one of them *coughcoughScottcoughcough* simply saying, "they're meant to be like mods now....so no de-ranking".
Then make them bloody mods and add a slot for them. Arcanes are NOT the same. The fact DE is avoiding this very easy and very simple feature that has ZERO negative impact on players is very shady. Donning a tinfoil hat it makes me think there's some sort of projection from the business side of DE saying, "We'll make more money if we don't let them de-rank them."
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So many threads about this same thing. It's obvious the community wants it back.
And for those confused, when we say distilling option we mean we want the option to de-rank our Arcanes back.
There's zero negative impact on us as players for having this option return. The only reason DE wouldn't add it back is if there's some potential profit to be gained for them.
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On 3/3/2018 at 3:25 AM, -N7-Leonhart said:
Reason or not, they do move in the direction of simplifying everything, just like with the fusion system, where they've replaced the Fusion Core mods with Endo. The system is indeed far easier to understand (although it was a non-issue for most), but you lose the ability to trade the fusion mods themselves. This game is just geared towards those kind of people it seems...
With this minor issue present or not, you have to agree that the new system is a huge step forward. Being able to equip any arcanes on any number of frames at the same time, without having to worry about frame specific hemets or syandanas is the final piece the hole arcane system needed.
Like I presented in my original post, these changes and updates were a step in the right direction.
But there's still more work to be done if they truly want to "simplify" everything.
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1 minute ago, seprent said:
that or they made a mistake and are working on a fix for the new system all i can really say is give it time and hope people who made this mistake with their arcanes and try to keep a level head for abit and not got straight to digital pitchforks and torches if i put it to a timer it would after the devstream and nothing is done pitchforks are ok
Thing is folks have already put in support tickets to fix this "issue". If they keep this as is the wait time is only going to increase. I've had a support ticket take over a month to fully resolve. And it was only done in that time cause someone from [DE] happened to be in-game and I was able to talk with them and get it fixed.
Letting us de-rank/distill, whatever you wanna call it, has no negative impacts upon us as players.
Keeping the system as is so far has the negative impact that people are gonna task support with fixing their accidents.
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1 minute ago, seprent said:
maybe they thought there design was straight forward enough and thought it was kinda redundant and removed it i think with enough community stirring something is going to be done for this specific problem i wish luck to the people who want this option back for trading or to fix this problem with their personal set up
Straight-forward or not, us as players see no negative impact from being able to distill/de-rank our Arcanes. If there's anything to gain from restricting us doing so it's on DE's side. Some sort of statistics they're aware of that'll benefit them alone. It's the only reason I can think of.
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9 minutes ago, Drasiel said:
While I understand you are upset or annoyed by this but calling the system idiotic and that people will leave likely isn't going to get you anywhere.
Also have you checked the arsenal upgrade screen? There was an update today that changes how it is done to prevent accidentally ranking up two different of the same one when you only want to rank up a single arcane.
Lots of people have already screwed themselves out of their sets by accidentally ranking up two groups of the same Arcane.
Todays update helped...but is just a band-aid. Being able to split apart (de-rank) your arcanes has no negative impact on us as players what-so-ever.
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42 minutes ago, seprent said:
i still dont understand why people...
7 minutes ago, -N7-Leonhart said:And that is now that they can drop from a more accessible loot source...
1 minute ago, seprent said:ah i see i never really paid attention and still bobbles my mind...
Putting the reason why people buy these arcanes with plat or trade for them or what-have-you aside, it still begs the question why de-ranking Arcanes was removed. It makes absolute zero sense. There's no negative effects of us being able to do so and if anything will let us trade them more freely with others. We need this option back.
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1 minute ago, YandereWaifu said:
its simple really, there isnt really a need to distill arcanes as they can now be equiped on any frame you own eg have one arcane energise at r3, and i can put that on both my mag and my saryn at once, just like with say a transient fortitude mod. now that they arent tied down to anything specific and you can equip and unequip them as youd like distilling has become unnecessary in that while removing didnt do any good, keeping it also wouldnt have done any good. as for accidentally upgrading, that should be more or less fixed now as there is a thing on your arcanes themselves showing the current rank so as to avoid such careless mistakes.
When I mention distilling that's what I mean. De-ranking Arcanes.
As I said, today's update was a good start but there's literally no downside to letting us downgrade them. Lots of people already accidentally did so and are simply just S.O.L.? That doesn't seem right. Distillers are still in our inventories. Let us use them. The picture I provided is but of one example. I've seen a few people now who screwed up their Arcane Energize set. Some of which I imagine paid a lot of platinum for. I can't find any logical reason for removing distilling(de-ranking) arcanes....so why not let us?
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Unless they start letting us partially upgrade to the next rank I sadly don't see that as their intention.
I'm fearing there's some more nefarious reason for removing distilling that the business side of DE isn't saying aloud....maybe it's expected to boost platinum trading in some way. Or intended to be a credit sink and thus a drain on resources getting some demographic of people to play more. Sadly this is where my mind wanders as I can't think of any other reason as to why distilling would be removed from the game.
Word filter is abysmal
in General
Posted
They could but it's obvious some people are upset over certain matters. I don't see the harm in this being implementing aside from a bit of work from DE's side.