SneakyErvin
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Posts posted by SneakyErvin
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2 hours ago, Silenzeio said:
Gotta love how OP has no responses in this thread, even a single comment about their parenting choice to sit a 9yo down to watch a Warframe stream.
I've bisected many Corpus with my swords, decapitated many Grineer with guns and have committed various more war-crimes upon the enemies of the system.
You sure an M-rated game is appropriate watching material for your kid OP? Re-analyze yourself as a parent.Not to mention that if the kid has played WF he has also learned it is OK to sell your friends to the highest bidder even if their intent is to kill said "friend" for their valuebles. Plus, things considered as not-appropriate according to the Geneva Convention are really OK, such as the use of flechettes, death through fire, death through freezing among other wonderful ways to pass someone over to the great after, elysium, valhall, hell, heaven or just good 'ol maggot food.
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39 minutes ago, PublikDomain said:
In what game does it work like that? lol
Did you get the same amount of Shards for skipping Kahl missions? No.
Do you now get the same amount of Shards for not buying them from Bird-3? No.
Do you get the same number of Arcanes for only doing the first stage of a tricap? No.
Do you get the same kinds of Relics for only going to Rotation A? No.
Do you get the same amount of Credits for only doing low risk Index? No.
Do you get the same amount of Incarnon Adapters for only doing 5 tiers of the Circuit? No.
Do you get the same amount of rare Prime parts for only doing Intact Relics? No.
Do you get a Prodman poster for only staying for 30 minutes? No.
It's like there's a pattern.... 🤔
The difference is that none of those punish players differently through RNG behind a time gate. If you get a really bad EDA pull you will be locked out of the top rewards without you being able to do anything about it. And it isnt some skill tied to it either, it is simply the game telling you no, since you happen to miss items you wouldnt actively use in the mission anyways if you had them.
Kahl and all the others is/was the same for all. Incarnon Adapters for instance. If you get a bad pull you are only required to jump in and do a single rotation to get a new chance, all it costs you is some time. In EDA if things are really against you, you will miss out on the rewards for the week, soley due to arbitrary RNG that really adds nothing.
If EDA was done right it would have avoided RNG gear and instead had more modifiers you need to have active that proxy the bad item pulls. Enemies are immune to slash and puncture damage/staus, oh looks like Bo got more appealing. Enemies are immune to viral damage/status, new modding required. Explosive weapons deal 99% less damage. Held, Burst and Full-Auto weapons deal 99% less damage. Melee weapons deal 99% less damage. Melee range cannot be increased. Base crit chance is set to 0%. Base status chance is set to 0%. Melee attacks cost energy. Shooting costs energy. A nullification pulse surges you each 10 seconds. You are affected by magnetic (not the #*!%ing visual, and it could be blocked by utilizing the arcane). And so on. Things to incentivice exploring other options without a risk that it locks anyone out from rewards.
The things you picked didnt work with the modifiers imposed on you? Well try again since you have more items that might work. Right now it's "You dont have these items? Well then you wont get the highest reward". Or it means you can get the highest reward but end up being 100% useless to the rest of the group in the process by getting effectively carried.
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5 hours ago, helioth137 said:
ooooh! It's a buff, thanks for clearing that up, silly me, i thought, cause of the wording, that it was a debuff on each individual enemy.
I'm pumped I rolled a skana riven with +2.2 range, +110 crit dam, +110 heat, it's almost perfect for a melee influence build, but has the one big downside of -92% status duration, which might be an absolute number (as in, if it lasted 100 seconds before, it will only last 8 seconds now), but might not even be that bad. At any rate, it can still do amazing upfront crit damage, which is kind of more what the skana incarnon is about anyway.
Not sure what best combo for heat would be in order to still get electric, i guess radiation, or,
seeing as i'm armour stripping with cedo + double emerald shards, maybe even gass...
could use vazarin void snare/ cordon/ x to group them up then too, and deal "quadratic scaling damage" with both electric and gas.
Downside is it would be very weak against necramechs, but then i'd swap to lex incarnon with secondary outburst (:
Have any bright ideas except that?
With the evolution that grants you +9 combo on first hit, skana goes 12x at rocket speed.It could work with the -92% status, but it would severly cut all statuses and you are pretty much left with gas or blast in order to have electric free. It is possible that you wont get any ticks at all from the DoTs since they last 6 seconds and tick each second, but the riven cuts the duration down to 0.48 seconds. The pure damage from influence would still be intact though.
I would probably reroll the riven and hope to get something similar, but maybe with cold or electric instead of heat and no negative status duration. Electric would likely be most beneficial since it leaves you open to build for any combined status you like otherwise while still utilizing influence no matter which frame you play. Like if I play a frame where I use nourish or get viral elsewhere I tend to not want viral on my weapon aswell. Like my Hate on Saryn atm. Instead of two mods for viral she has an extra mod for more electric and one for more crit damage, while on my Kullervo Hate is modded for viral in those two slots. On Dual Ichor it doesnt really matter, since I need to get rid of the innate toxin on the weapon anyways to get electric free, so cold, toxin or electric works on the riven, since I need to spend 3 slots on elements either way.
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19 hours ago, TARINunit9 said:
Usage means exactly that: USAGE. As in taken into missions and used against enemies. Not ownage, which is seperated and as you point out is much more easily tracked
Well yes, but if something is forced on you it doesnt mean you use it out of free will. So that something gets increased usage stats from EDA results in misleading usage stats since they cannot see if you use it because you like it or simply because it is forced and you get points from it. In Duviri they can disregard usage stats on items where the item isnt also owned. With EDA that becomes impossible since we can only use what we own, so it doesnt manage to show why we use it. It is bad as it is with Duviri since you still have many cases where the usage doesnt mean you want to use it even if you own it, but atleast it can remove alot of the usage due to people not owning the items they use.
Also, we have to remember how shoddy WF usage data is. Specters for instance inflate your usage stats for all items that are part of that specter. Protea ended up on my top 5 list for 2023, even though I practically didnt play her at all outside of some Circuit. But since she is my specter her usage still managed to sneak into the top 5, even though I played several other frames far more actively throughout the year, yet she still nabbed the #5 spot. And I'm fairly sure she also stole the secondary weapon spot since the specter used Laetum for most of the year, while I used Furis actively most of the time after obtaining the incarnon on the first rotation it was available. I carried laetum with me for 5-10 minutes per week at most when killing the Archon.
My usage was Kullervo, Lavos, Citrine, Garuda Prime and Protea, where in reality I used Saryn, Frost, Atlas, Styanax and Khora, and potentially also Dagath more actively than Protea. However the specter of her heavily scewed the stats.
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21 hours ago, Nero.DMC said:
No it did not, i played Dante from day 1, it was FINE everyone i spoke to tought it was fine, it had LoS but it was NOT the same LoS that tragedy got, it was FAR FAR FAR more lenient. this issue never existed you are trying to make it up DV has always been fine stop making S#&$ up.
It did have the old LoS check system. A new system didnt get implemented until this patch for DV, at which point it got the improvements of current Tragedy. So if you were fine with that, you should be fine with what we have now across the board since both skills implement a system that is more reliant than any we've had before overall. So it is odd people didnt notice it on DV but all of a sudden did on Tragedy. The most odd part is people noted it on the improved Tragedy but never picked it up on DV for 2 whole weeks, even though improved Tragedy from the friday patch had practically no issues.
22 hours ago, Nero.DMC said:Sure something players an control while they are moving on a mision, this has to be the dumbest thing you have said so far. How enemies move beside defence misions or survival misions is completely random from a player perspective.
No really it isnt random. All missions can be controlled. Non endless missions that move from DZ to EZ will have spawns infront of you as you move on, endless missions allow for full control, either by relying on spawn logic from survival (disruption for instance) or a mix between it and defense (excav, interception).
22 hours ago, Nero.DMC said:we all know it had LoS but it had super lenient LoS as i have told you 500 times already, you seem to just ignore the things i have told you over and over, DV LoS was always fine, it was never annoying, nobody complained about it and you made it up to distract ppl from the real argument that has nothing to do with dark verse. the reason it was in the patch notes its because the improvement to LoS was a think they made for every skill with LoS, so Dark Verse got it, but -->NOBODY COMPLAINED ABOUT DV LoS<-- if you cannot grasp that simple thing and stop bringing up DV just stop talking to me, i am all in for talking and discussion but if i wanted empty answers of stuff i have adressed multiple times i could go talk to my 3y old nephew.
But it didnt, since it was the skill that even got blocked by Dante himself. This could be tested by using another primer in the sim, prime things up with it, use tragedy with blocked view due to Dante and still see the blocked primed targets die on detonation. Going back to priming with DV with the same enemies blocked by Dante would result in them not getting "detonated" and only take the base damage of the skill, while still having no slash on them after detonation. Meaning DV never landed but Tragedy did. Since if DV had landed they'd still have slash on them since Tragedy would have never landed if it was blocked by Dante, they'd also have large chunks of their life removed from the dot itself, but only had minimal health removed due to the base damage of Tragedy landing.
That no one complained about DV is my whole point, since it means people complain about things before testing, as I described here, with simple tests done that showed which skill was actually the bottleneck, even in a fully open setting. People attributed a bug to a skill that did not have that bug after the friday fix.
Tragedy itself was never blocked by Dante etc. outside of the first day it had LoS. DV was blocked since day 1.
22 hours ago, Nero.DMC said:"Rivals weapons"? WOW, not even close, unless you have extremely bad weapons built, literally any decent weapon will outdps Dante pre nerf, Saryn explodes everything, she uses a weapon to DETONATE (remember that word) her DETONATION do not have LoS check, Dante's DETONATION comes from his 4, BUT his 4th has a LoS check wich is extremely bad for a DETONATION ability.
But it does rival weapons. I can maintain an easy 2.0+ kps with Rhino using Dark Verse spam. That is without burst damage available through Tragedy, since well... Rhino doesnt have that skill. And it is easier with Dante since he has access to Roar if you want to do the same as Rhino, but with the benefit of also having massive detonation burst to instantly wipe out large groups of enemies in 3 quick button taps. Saryn doesnt "DETONATE", she pops her spores and makes them spread, the enemy you spread them from dies to the weapon at that point, not the spores themselves and you need to attack the next enemy to speed up the killing and spread further beyond that, or wait for the spores to kill with their limited non-stackable-on-demand damage and spread them with miasma.
When Dante detonates he detonates, which means the mobs die there and then on demand. And this is while we conveniently forget his massive defense along with insane single target potential with weapons aswell. Because apparently Tragedy is the only thing Dante has in his whole kit.
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15 hours ago, Nero.DMC said:
yep, first patch is where they added LoS this ofc means they did not think LoS trough they rushed a patch for who knows what reason, not giving it tought and then after noticing how extremely bad the patch was they "fixed it" but the original desition was extremely rushed, so no i dont think they deserve the benefit of the doubt of thinking it trough, to me slapping LoS into Dante was just much easier than balancing him, and since they clearly were in a rush (who knows why) they decided to slap that annoying mechanic into him and clearly did not even test afterwards.
His current state comes from that patch, so you can't really say that the patch is not relevant just because his state now is better than after the first patch when you are analising if slapping LoS was the right move you certainly should consider the patch it came in (a extremely rushed untested patch).There wasnt much to think through since it already exsisted in the game. It just didnt work well with Tragedy. And his current state does not come from that patch, since that LoS does not exsist, it was removed the day after and replaced with the new system.
15 hours ago, Nero.DMC said:I asked you for evidence for this claim, you failed to provide it, i asked you just 3 instances of people complaining about it, nothing, i have not seen anything. So what i have left is to believe you against what i experienced first hand or not believe you until you provide evidence of something that i never saw happening even tho i was in the forums all those days.
So provide something or stop lying about it. (your theories are nice but without actual evidence of people complaining they might as well be 100% wrong, i have never seen anyone complaining about DV)
That is my point. People didnt start complaining until Tragedy got LoS aswell, since at that point they knew LoS was part of the kit, which skipped past many at his initial release. Which also resulted in them thinking it was Tragedy that did it when Dark Verse had the old and wonky LoS check. This patch, which notes we are discussing things in provide all the proof you need that Dark Verse was indeed bugged or well used a poor LoS system.
15 hours ago, Nero.DMC said:no, they are not, over 250, they wont die that fast, they will die nonetheless but i am way out of the loot range when they do, specially noticeable when they drop marked stuff i am waaaaaay out, again DETONATOR ability not working, the whole point of tragedy is detonation, its clearly no longer working as it should because they rushed to slap LoS mechanic into it.
They will, since the EHP wont be much different from entry level SP due to the skill ignoring armor, the biggest impact on damage. And it still works, if you alter your playstyle slightly, by not having enemies spread all over a place.
15 hours ago, Nero.DMC said:It is made up LOL, nobody complained about dark verse, they just added extra LoS checks to every skill no matter if people complained about them or not... people complained ONLY about tragedy... again i have asked for evidence of players complaining of dark verse, ofc you are unable to provide any b/c it does not exist, its a completely made up problem that never existed.
No, it had LoS. Just like every other skill that they bring up in the notes. They get improved checks over the old. Also the key phrase regarding Dark Verse is " (LoS) checks more reliable to bring it in line with Tragedy." meaning it had worse LoS checking than Tragedy.
15 hours ago, Nero.DMC said:your saryn probably suck tbh, Dante is okay, he is just annoying now, for no particular reason, they did not balance him, they slapped LoS instead of balancing him there is no two ways around that, you just play in a way that its not annoying but you are trying to defend a change that screw ppl that play in other ways based on yourself not being affected, you either spam tragedy or have to kill struglers with weapons. i highly doubt you are killing 250+ units with one cast of dark verse.
AGAIN stop trying to discuss issues that dont exist, no one said he is unplayable on high end content... if you want to discuss something you need to find someone with a different view, i feel like half what i need to keep repeating to you are arguments you made up to not be wrong about the only argument i care about:
LoS is bad for Dante tragedy.
No, she just doesnt have burst in her kit without weapons. There is no way to circumvent the need for ticks on Saryn's skills in order for them to kill. And they were never planning on balancing him, since they stated clearly in their devshort that they were happy with his damage. They clearly werent happy with how that damage was applied, which is a different story. I kill enemies with Dark Verse, never said 1. I simply move and cast as I go since it has practically no cast time and allows me to stay mobile while also stacking. I mean, he isnt exactly a hard frame to build given his very forgiving base stats and access to the defenses he has. It's just like with Rhino with a subsumed Dark Verse, it rivals weapons without any need for a detonation tool whatsoever.
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2 hours ago, TARINunit9 said:
With how intricate DE's data collection usually is, I would be very surprised if they can't figure out how to exclude Deep Archimedes from usage stats
It would be hard for them, since in the case of Deep people own the weapons used. So should they then exclude the items from usage stats when used in Deep since they may be used simply to grant points even if someone uses them regularly outside aswell? With Duviri it comes down to both owned and unowned items, so easier to spot why something is used or not since it will also have the owned/unowned flag probably.
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1 minute ago, 0_The_F00l said:
That's is one aspect of things that this will make obvious.
Like always I have multiple wrinkly layers on this , like a cabbage. (Unlike an opinion which is usually smooth and results in tears)
One thing I'd love to see would be "mission" rivens. Simply a mod or two or three you can slot on your frames that adds modifiers to a mission similar to maps in Path of Exile or Danger Room Chips in Marvel Heroes. Have them drop anywhere with different rarities then let us upgrade them and reroll them a limited amount of times, then after we've used them they are consumed. In return for negative modifications on a mission we'd recieve more loot, while some things seen as negative could be combined into positives given the correct loadout used with it, just like how it works with maps in PoE.
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Tying it to gear is bad bad bad bad bad bad bad, since the gear wont become better just because people start to use it. Having mission modifiers will however show DE that the gear that isnt used is crap, so they can adjust it instead of leaving it as is because "it is used this much!" due to people wanting more loot.
edit: The RNG pulls are already bad since they will just end up scewing usage stats, meaning the problem with terrible weapons still persist. I'd prefer that system gone and a multitude of extra modifications added for EDA for instance.
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1 minute ago, Venus-Venera said:
p2w makes sense now and is absolutely applicable these days.
Of course, someone can fantasize embarrassing fairy tales about F2P. but the fact is that new player has to waste more than year of his life to enjoy new content and not be constantly frustrated........THERE IS NO CATCH UP MECHANIC HERE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
That is still not P2W, that would just be Pay-to-Skip, since there is in the end no competition or objective need to catch up to anyone. And the "significant advantage" in this case comes from having played the game for a long time, so not positively through spending, and that "advantage" is over that new player, that would not gain an advantage over someone by paying. He'd just skip to get to whatever point it is he wants to go but faster. In the end it is also just subjective, since another new player wants to experience it all by playing and he isnt at a competative disadvantage by doing so, since there is no competition in the game. He might even opt to avoid public to experience as much as possible as he plays at his own pace.
I mean, I explained P2W in the post you quoted and you still completely miss the main parts of what makes something P2W instead of P2S.
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On 2024-04-18 at 1:48 AM, UnstarPrime said:
I'm definitely aware that different people sometimes seem to have different operational definitions of "pay-to-win". The reason I use that term the way I do is two-fold:
- In the vast majority of the interactions and reading I've done throughout my lifetime, the term pay-to-win has been used to refer to all types of games, whether single-player, multiplayer, etc. So that's my experience with the term.
- Because I feel like that's the most accurate way to way to use the term "pay-to-win". If you "pay" and it gets you closer to "winning", then intuitively that should fall under the umbrella of "pay-to-win".
Personally, I would categorize both "pay-to-skip" and "pay-to-win" as different — and at times overlapping — sub-categories of "microtransactions" But if others want to frame things differently, that's fine. Different people having different understandings of terms is far from a new problem, and we've got plenty of conversational tools to address it! ^^
There is only one real definition of it since it was created to seperate one thing from another. What your first point highlights is that people are absolutely clueless since they havent experienced what P2W is and why it was created. Like, single-player P2W? That makes absolutely zero sense, it is quite literally impossible for anyhting single player to be P2W since it is... well... single player.
Point two just means you dont get it. The "win" part or P2W is in relation to other players, you paying real cash to gain a significant advantage over other players. This was a term created when competiative games started to monetize the competative part through their cash shops. When you use this term on WF you are also using it on every game that exsisted before there was a need for this specific term to be created in the first place. Since games back then worked like WF monetization and sold shortcuts not tied to competative systems within the games, or they had no competative systems at all. This means that through your reasoning regarding P2W, those games also became P2W when that term was created even though that term was created to seperate those games from P2W games. There were already terms that described the monetization model of those games, aswell as later games that followed that model, like WF, PoE, MH and others. Those terms were P2S, PfC and similar, where they sold either skips, or convenciance items, like expanded stashes or similar that were cut since the game was otherwise free.
The term has nothing to do with "winning" over anything but other players through paying real cash. Hence why it is impossible for it to apply to single player games, because it is just you that is the sole player.
On 2024-04-17 at 9:30 PM, UnstarPrime said:While pay-to-win is generally a (justifiably) maligned term, I don't think it's innately bad, especially not in a free-to-play game. There are better and worse ways to monetize power, and in my opinion Warframe overall does it fairly well.
This part also shows you dont know what the term imples. P2W is innately a bad term, it was created for that reason, to be used as a red flag or black mark on games that allowed people to pay for significant advantages over others in competative settings. As I said to Voltage in another thread about this same misconception, it is like calling Bob a bigot but then saying it isnt positively a bad thing. Just monetizing power does not mean it becomes P2W. There is no competative aspect in WF where paying cash grants you a significant advantage over other players. Everyone benefits from what you purchase if you purchase something tied to power the moment you play with them using whatever it is you purchased.
You are right though, pay-to-skip can overlap, or well transform into pay-to-win if the systems of the game and whatever is monetized results in significant advantages over other players. But the game needs to have competative aspects for that to happen. WF simply doesnt have that since we are never competing when we play with others. Everything is shared between the group etc. with a common end goal for the activity. If WF had public zones with personal loot and kill tagging etc. it could potentially be close to P2W territory, but even then it would be a massive leap due to how progression and items work in WF. We dont have strict linear progression. For instance somone in a setting as the one mentioned would not increase his chances of tagging mobs by spending on the latest things in this game. Someone grabbing Onos or Ruvox (that is the name right?) for cash right out the door would not positively improve their dominance at a public farm spot compared to someone without those weapons. Since power isnt linear in that way where the latest is the best so that skipping results in an instant power gain over others. In the end though, we dont even have those "competative" PvE systems, since we all share whatever someone else manages to squeeze out of a mob, or that you help that person squeeze out of the mob by having a rare item booster.
I've been through plenty of P2S and P2W games, both F2P and B2P versions. And I see it as a slap in the face of both DE (and other developers) aswell as players when people throw this term around in WF and similar games. It completely removes all meaning from the term and the reason for why it was created in the first place. I mean, what was the reason to create this term when it is going to end up getting used to describe games that it was never intended to be used on? You and others practically brought us back to the time before, since you use the term P2W to mean P2S.
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15 hours ago, Nero.DMC said:
literally played for less than 5 minutes after the tragedy LoS changes and noticed it was beyond broken, there are many clips of streamers literally testing them and less than a few minutes was enough to notice it was broken, DE were ashamed of what they released... All this is just indicative they did not take the TIME to think it trough, if they had no time to test it i guarantee they did not really think it through... NO ONE WAS RUSHING THEM... if their QA team was busy they should have waited, tested and ship stuff that is ready, being understaffed is like the best reason to take things slow, they did not (and the result was clear as day to anyone that dont want to be extremely apologetic of DE, like you in this particular sentence, there is no excuse for what they released, no developer team would do that and not feel extremely ashamed, and they did feel ashamed at least)
In the first patch yes, which is no longer the version we have in the game. It is also the same version that was used for Dark Verse, which you somehow did not notice, not for the first week leading up to the broken "Dark Verse" LoS getting added to Tragedy, or for the week after the Tragedy fix. Also, why are you hung up on a mechanic no longer part of the game for either of the two skills? It is about Dante's current state. No one cares about what was. It also took them 1(!) day to fix that mess.
15 hours ago, Nero.DMC said:Huge lie. this is the most blatant lie i have seen you telling.
No it isnt. That is the LoS issue people projected onto Tragedy after the fix/switch over to the new LoS for Tragedy. Which was there for two full week and no one noticed for the first week. Likely since most didnt care about hitting with Dark Verse, since most likely stayed in lowbie content 1HKing with the initial damage of Tragedy. Which makes me think it applies to you aswell even though you claim you played SP. Or did you squat in infested missions maybe? That would explain alot.
15 hours ago, Nero.DMC said:it is a thing, DoT's are slow, how much time do you think you take to move on WF? its less than a couple of seconds to be in a completely different room... and no, maybe in extremely low areas targets would die from 1 tick of dark verse, but anything 250+ is just an annoyance, they will die for sure from just dark verse but they wont die fast.
And in those seconds those mobs are dead. Or do you for some reason revisit "cramped areas" when you've already gotten out of them during the first few minutes of an endless as you try to find a better spot? If so why?
15 hours ago, Nero.DMC said:You keep trying to rewrite the meaning of nerf.
Nerf: to reduce the effectiveness of (something, such as a character, attribute, or weapon) in a video game.Unless you change the definition of Nerf, they did nerf him, there is no 2 ways around that.
That means it must have been intended as part of that which they nerf to begin with. A fix is not a nerf. Pageflight was not working as intended, so it was a bug fix and not a nerf. Adding it back as a permanent addition of the skill was a buff though, since it was an addition to how it was intended to work initially.
15 hours ago, Nero.DMC said:No i most certainly did not... cramped spaces are where this issue is reocurring, you mark, you move, you detonate, stuff that should be dead is still alive... its literally what i have said since day one, let marked targets be targeted without LoS i dont care if stuff i did not mark receive 0 damage.
Can you stop trying to make up an issue with dark verse, no one wants to discuss dark verse, it is fine, it was always fine, you are trying to create an issue that has never existed...
I completely disagree, i had no problem marking from day one with dark verse, i barely notice much difference, dark verse has always been fine.
It isnt a made up issue with Dark Verse. There is a reason it is documented by players on the bug forum section in response to knee-jerk "Tragedy LoS bugged", and there is a reason there was a bug fix that went live last week for that skill specifically, hilariously in this very patch "to bring it more inline with Tragedy".
Dark Verse:
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Made Dark Verse’s Line of Sight (LoS) checks more reliable to bring it in line with Tragedy.
- Following the improvements to Tragedy’s LoS last week, we’ve applied the same logic to Dark Verse to ensure enemies within LoS are properly considered to prevent cases where being only partially visible would not trigger the check. This is part of the greater LoS improvements detailed in the “Line of Sight Improvements” section below.
So can you maybe read patch notes before claiming things are made up?
15 hours ago, Nero.DMC said:This is indeed true on low level enemies only tho, not so much in anything higher wich is were it gets extremely annoying. and i would get it if this was done to tune him down but in reality its not tuning him down its just annoying not really weaker. i would much rather receive a balance (tho i think he never needed one) weapons still outdps all frames so i would love to see more frames being better or as strong as guns to allow more gameplay styles.
It applies to higher content, since I havent done any low content with Dante whatsoever. My content experience with him is SP Mot and Palus for about 2h, both normal and fissure, SP Circulus Fissure for about 2h, Netracells and EDA, aswell as a Lab fissure survival. And he has no problem competing with my Saryn, he has a far easier time the higher the levels get aswell since he is immortal, so his uptime on damage is near 100%, he also has burst which Saryn just doesnt.
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Made Dark Verse’s Line of Sight (LoS) checks more reliable to bring it in line with Tragedy.
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22 hours ago, Karyst said:
Lot of people are saying that abilities having Los is in inconsistency for once again multiple reasons regurgitated multiple times on this forum alone. For those not paying attention, one enemy covering fully line of sight on an enemy behind them, visible in the Kengineers video as an example, also based on my experience before I even read patch notes from update where they added Los, environment obstacles which there are plenty in Sanctum, furthermore it was highlighted here that using 3 3 4 combo is infact inconsistent because an enemy may walk behind an obstacle before you can cast 4 and thus not detonate, an obstacle being anything that counts as one, this is inconsistent even when compared to Saryn that can "mark" with her 1 that requires Los and then blast an area that doesn't have Los and it increases spore damage, sevagoths sow requires Los but reap that detonates enemies marked with sow does NOT have Los and so on. Just few examples to bring the users up do date with mechanics present in the game at this moment compared to subject in question named Dante.
Those parts of his video are outdated. Those were fixed with the implementation of the new LoS system, which went live the day after Tragedy recieved a LoS mechanic and last week for Dark Verse that used the old buggy LoS system prior to that. So none of the obstacles people bring up are big issues now. They were issues for 2 weeks on Dark Verse and for 1 day on Tragedy, with a few minor bugs to iron out. And an enemy walking away from LoS is not an inconsistency, that is just the enemy walking away from your LoS since you were... well... slow. Also, people need to realize, Saryn doesnt deal remotely close to the damage of someone like Dante. She can wipe by ignoring LoS sure, but it isnt effective compared to her playing around LoS i.e using guns or melee to keep her DoTs rolling. Dark Verse deals more damage straight out the door as a reliable DoT compared to spores. As to Sevagoth, he is in a rather terrible state overall in comparison to Dante, no matter how his skills work. Dante is still extremely powerful as a damage dealer and a tank/support/buffer/debuffer at the same time.
The overall inconsistencies with Dante were bigger at release than they are now, since Dark Verse used the terrible old LoS system. That there are some few bugs left does not mean the current version is worse of. The real "issues" are those of the people that want to nuke through solid walls.
8 hours ago, Nero.DMC said:that is the problem, there was nothing wrong with it, it already exist too, its not even new. Given the state of the first patch i think you are giving waaaaaay too much credit to how much they tested and considered things through
Apparently there was according to DE. And that it already exsists doesnt mean that DE doesnt want to avoid it in future releases. Also, who the hell cares about the first patch? They fixed that in 1 day. And since none of the players caught onto the Dark Verse issues for a whole week, pointing fingers at DE for not testing the LoS is disengenous. An immensly popular frame and most people found no issues with the same terrible LoS that went live with Tragedy aswell? Yes, point fingers at the very limited testers within the company while thousands upon thousands of players didnt catch on... makes perfect sense.
8 hours ago, Nero.DMC said:You are trying to create a problem than never existed to begin with, nobody was annoyed with dark verse, everyone liked Dante on release, you are literally the only person i have even heard of having a problem with original dark verse, but sure it got better nice, we can drop talking about dark verse now, its completely irrelevant to the discusion about tragedy keeping LoS.
Except that every person blaming Tragedy were in reality projecting Dark Verse problems onto Tragedy.
8 hours ago, Nero.DMC said:100% disagree, the whole point of tragedy is not having to wait for stuff to die from dots, you detonate them in order to not wait the 2 or 3 ticks (or whatever many ticks it can take for something to die) like could you play without tragedy? sure it would just be a lot of waiting for stuff dying from damage over time, dante would still be strong as well, he would just be really annoying to play.
Well "having to wait" isnt really a thing. I mean, you said you DoTed things up as you moved so you could detonate to get rid of them. Those things should already be dead as you move on, the need to detonate shouldnt be there if it is the things behind the wall you are talking about. Which it seems to be regarding how you've reasoned regarding cramped areas. This is not about nuking in general, since if it is and you are running around to prime, then the first targets are already very likely dead where you left them thanks to Dark Verse.
8 hours ago, Nero.DMC said:how players feels while playing is the single most important thing in a game, if players get bored they dont play and dont pay. the game needs to feel fun and enjoyable, Dante itself dropped drastically in popularity from the first week to now, a lot of people were having fun and spending money with him, some people still do but a lot was lost just for that useless change. It does not benefit much and it does not even make him weaker, its just an annoyance and on top of that they released the patch in such a state was even worse.
No, balance and a development vision should be the most important part. And if you think feelings should play the biggest role, then you should be happy, since a wider portion of players were likely happy to see room nuking gone on Dante, so they now have something to do in low level content while ending up with him. Which is undeniably one of the reasons why he was changed the way he was. Or are you saying that Dante was played by the majority of people and those people make up the majority of opinions? If so the change also goes inline with DE philosophy on dominance.
8 hours ago, Nero.DMC said:Sure you can have your opinion, its just not shared by most players, the change was bad (you like it or not), its pointless, annoying, and literally made ppl stop playing a fun frame. Annoying your players will never be a good change.
What "most players"? The vocal negative minority that is mostly the one heard even if they are a minority?
8 hours ago, Nero.DMC said:Again discussing something really irrelevant, but no, your intentions are irrelevant, if you make something weaker you just nerfed it, definitions do not change based on what you wanted to do, was he stronger before the patch? YES, was he weaker after the patch? YES -> thats a nerf, the original design is irrelevant.
Or you could go and read up on the meaning of nerf versus buff vs fix and so on? And no, it wasnt a nerf, since it removed something not intended to be there. Reduction to OG = nerf, since the value was intended from release but was then seen as too much. Nezha augment = nerf since it was intended to have full range but seen as too powerful after the actual release.
8 hours ago, Nero.DMC said:You hit the nail in the head here, its not, wich makes me all the more annoyed when i have to wait 2 ticks for something to die when i already hit him and detonated the group he was part of... but based on something out of my control he is slighly out of LoS so now i have to either go back and hit him with something else or wait for him to die... annoying AF and it literally does not change anything he is a dead man walking but my detonator skill no longer works because he moved a bit to the left, just the extra annoyance of having to go back or just move on and let it die once i am out of loot range...
So you've now changed the story of wanting to nuke as you get away from cramped spaces to simple nuking? And no, "slightly out of LoS" is not how the new LoS works. You are at this point exaggerating massively. And what you are hung up on was as much part of things when Tragedy had no LoS, since Dark Verse failed far more often at applying the DoT to detonate. Which resulted in a worse situation since the mob wasnt even left with a DoT to kill it.
8 hours ago, Nero.DMC said:i think you just do not realize how many times enemies get stuck or slighly out of your LoS, maybe you just play in a differente way than i do, i play marking and detonating moving between packs, i completely dislike spamming tragedy on every pack, i want to mark and detonate, loot and move on. not 223 223 223 spam (wich is how some people play and its completely valid, not having LoS would not change how they can play, it would just let me enjoy how i liked Dante)
If I move between packs to prime in order to have a massive bunch to detonate I will not have much left to detonate out of those I leave behind, since Dark Verse will finish them before I've primed the rest. Which is why I see zero reason in having enemies come from all directions in the first place. Plus it is a #*!%ing chore to run back in order to loot. So I rather 3+3+4 or 3+3+melee depending on how far the enemies are from me.
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22 hours ago, helioth137 said:
I clearly don't understand how melee influence works then... 9m does indeed sound nutty.
I thought it was locked for 20 seconds once you trigger electric on a target?
Spreading all the status on that target to all other targets within range?Yeah you've mixed up how it works a bit.
It works like this. When an electric status procs on an enemy there is a 20% chance for the status to activate the arcane. The arcane is then active for 20 seconds (cant refresh the buff duration during this time) and spreads all elemental statuses you apply to enemies during that time. Not only that, but each spread status also inflicts its modded damage on the target it spreads to.
So fast hitting weapons aswell as good range can produce an insane amount of AoE damage from the arcane. A weapon with 9m reach can potentially hit enemies with influence 29m away from you, since the status spread from the target. This can also turn your gunblades into 20m AoE "guns", though Hate Incarnon does it better since it has none of the drawbacks of the terrible gunblade stances, it just launches projectiles with your forward and neutral combo as you slash away.
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A tip here for lower geared players since it is about Kullervo.
If you use Curse alot, consider using Toxin damage when facing Corrupted, since the health type damaged transfers directly to damage the same health type for all curse linked targets while also ignoring defenses. This means that no matter what you hit it will always damage health of everyone else, as opposed to if you run any other damage type, at which point corpus will have their shields targetted first. So if they are the main target you spread from, damage you deal to the shields will deal no damage to any corrupted grineer or infested since they dont have shields.
So toxin makes it easier to target anything, while every other damage type benefits from targetting either corrupted grineer or infested, since they only have health to target, which then bypasses Corpus shields through curse link. Now if you are geared this wont matter, since no matter what you hit it will kill everything else that is cursed aswell.
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I think nerfing the power of the invo mods wouldnt be beneficial, since it would just result in it working as if you hit less mobs already but with a longer duration. And as it is right now, reapplying the buff to the same effect as a nerfed version isnt really hard to maintain, since aslong as you kill (not with the tome itself) enemies will fill the bar since it feeds on secondary ammo drops. So I rather have the current potential max than more duration.
Now if they wanna make it easier to reach the cap by reducing it and increasing the effect per stack I'm all for it, or if they wanna leave it be and increase the duration per hit aswell.
Canticle mods could use a massive buff though, either by increased values and durations on tome kills, or simply make them passive build modifications so any kill triggers them. Currently they work somewhat on "caster" frames, since all you need in order for them to trigger is to use the tome to mark targets and then kill while the tome is your active weapon. And as you kill with skills, the tome still counts as the active weapon in your hands. However, considering how little those mods do, allowing any kill to simply trigger them like an augur mod wouldnt be too far fetched or OP.
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Yeah, HA-projectile weapons are a pita to use on him due to the wobbly-wobble of his camera with those weapons. However, it should be noted that it does not apply to all of them. Ceramic Dagger works perfectly fine and just launches the projectiles on HA through Wrathful without twisting and turning the camera.
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19 hours ago, Nero.DMC said:
I have repeatedly said he is not much weaker, even tho he is a bit weaker, he is not much weaker, he is a whole lot more annoying to play and removed options as to how you can play him. wich is the thing i dont like about the change.
That is just how changes work. They saw a reason to change a certain style potential since they saw something wrong with it. And since his power is intact there is nothing wrong with that if they saw some interaction as unhealthy.
19 hours ago, Nero.DMC said:No its not, having abilitites that mark with LoS is not inconsistency its a design desition, one that makes sence, if your marker and detonator both work without LoS its extremely powerful, that's ehy they added it, no one complained because Dante felt great to play, no one have problems with Dark Tragedy, it has always been about tragedy. The root of his inconsistency is a detonator ability that does not detonate enemies even tho they are previously marked.
No one is saying that having abilities to mark is inconsistency. And the part I bolded shows you dont know where the root of the problem was. Yes people claimed it was Tragedy getting LoS that resulted in inconsistency, but that was also not true as can even be seen in the kengineer video talked about here, and even mentioned by the poster of that comment. That skill has been the bugged part of detonations and everything else since day 1 because it failed to prime since release. So if Tragedy would have stayed without LoS and Dark Verse was never fixed, you'd still end up failing to detonate things behind wall and everywhere else since they might have never gotten primed in the first place due to a bugged Dark Verse, which bugged out from several things, including Dante blocking it and small terrain pieces aswell.
Right now the skills work properly and the only time you wont see a detonation is if the target is actually blocked from LoS. On the otherhand you deal so much damage with Dark Verse that a reason to detonate behind a wall seems rather pointless and a waste of energy/casting time.
19 hours ago, Nero.DMC said:Sure, subjectivity and opinions are not irrelevant somehow i feel like you would say only objective stuff matter but that is far from the truth speaking about a game, how your players feel when they play is extremely importante, what you just said also means they should always try to leave as many ways to play as posible to let more people enjoy the frame and should also mean you have no reason to opose people asking for the removal of LoS.
Player feelings should really not stop changes incase they go against an idea the devs have to reduce something like what they see as disruptive gameplay or similar. If the power stays intact all that is needed is for players to adapt to a different style. And like I've said they can remove the LoS and instead remove the innate damage of Final Verse to solve low level nuking if that was the issue. But there seems to be other things they wanted to remove by adding LoS.
19 hours ago, Nero.DMC said:You are defending bad changes, adding LoS to Tragedy was a bad change, improving LoS in general is a good change but they are not related, one can exist without the other.
I dont think it was a bad change. You can feel it was a bad change if you like, that doesnt mean I defend a bad change, since again it is subjective and not objective. I'm of the opinion that more things should have LoS added to them.
19 hours ago, Nero.DMC said:a nerf is to reduce the effectiveness or power of something, their intentions is not relevant, it was a nerf anyway, not that it really matter, most people care about is LoS the nerf into buff for pageflight is pretty irrelevant
A nerf is a targetted adjustment to something already intended as part of the game. Pageflight was not intended to have that interaction, so not a nerf when it was removed, it was a simply bug fix. It getting added back was a buff to the frame since it gave him something that wasnt intended in his original design.
20 hours ago, Nero.DMC said:Quite literally everywhere tbh, it annoys the #*!% out of me every time i run around a corner and the enemies i just marked are no longer being tagged, yesterday it happened in a in a lua mision where i was invaded by misery, he dodge into a corner, netracell were i moved a bit and bam half the enemies i marked no longer detonating, also duviri where the terrain #*!%s LoS a lot, also in a cave on earth while doing Cetus bounties and then also on the stupid small passages and hallways in Necralisk vaults... want me to keep going?? how many examples you need?, the issue is everywhere its very annoying, stuff that i marked should get detonated is as simple as that. all those are SP so the base damage i deal to enemies is irrelevant, only ppl marked is taking any real damage.
How horrible is your Dark Verse damage then? I asked you about places where you feel like you need to use Tragedy in the first place. And seriously, Cetus and Deimos bounties? Your Dark Verse needs to be detonated in bounties? I mean, it is entry level SP levels. And where in Duviri (I assume you mean undercroft) do you ever get blocked? It's as open as it can get. I've had zero issues with him and landing his skills in netracells/labs. I hit enemies below me that have been primed without any failures even if I'm not looking in their direction or being close to the edge of the elevated part I'm standing on since I'm priming for a detonation in a side tunnel. It all ends up going boom and dying, both down below and in the tunnel I just primed.
I had issue up until the patch last week which fixed Dark Verse properly, but none since then because now both skills work as they should for priming and detonation. You are exaggerating how the terrain interfears now, since only solid walls block it. Not even doorways that #*!% up LoS for Kullervo's teleport interfear with DV/Trag.
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17 hours ago, helioth137 said:
what do you like about the nami solo ?
and how do you put the ack & brunt to use ? i got it and liked it initially but it fell off use wise... haven't found its niche yetThe 9m range potential on Nami Solo is crazy, especially with an Influence build, since you get massive AoE plus the weapon has forced heavy attack bleeds with a spin AoE. Not the ultimate Influence weapon since the combos arent that fast hitting, but it is devastating and mobile at the same time. With Ack & Brunt it is also about Influence, it works really well with the highly mobile Elevent Storm stance, plus slide attacks launch a heavy hitting AoE projectile.
I forgot to mention Hate on my list aswell, it is just bonkers aswell with Influence since it just pumps out projectiles that detonate and spreads statuses.
Then all of them are just further improved by playing Kullervo or using a slightly inferior frame with Wrathful as Helminth choice. Saryn is also fun with influential Hate, since it spreads her toxin lash like crazy.
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2 minutes ago, captn_Pat said:
So why use tragedy at all now when a weapon does the job better? And not only that weapon, any good weapon, his 4 feels like a shotgun now in its nature, rather short range in a cone, that massive radius in the tooltip is misleading, in practice its more like 20 meters, what you look at, maybe, if it isnt behind SOMETHING, enemies blocking themself from damage in halls, its not as awful as before the los fix (that helped some frames quite a bit, so there is that, my khora appreciates it) but its still crap, a expensive dot detonator should not have los restrictions when the primer itself already has that restriction. Its ok that you are fine with it, i dont like it at all, and i am not alone.
Same reason you use any other skill even though weapons do it better mostly, because it is fun to play caster frames. 30-ish meter (with 1 mod) shotgun with a 50 degree angle, that can be detonated for millions and millions and millions of damage. Sure sign me up for that shotgun! Expensive detonator, it costs 50(!). And in WFs day and age, who even thinks about energy when we have so many options to counter it? Efficiency, shards, arcanes, operator, mods etc. Pick a choice and never think about energy.
I'm running full efficiency with 1 minute long buffs (dropped down from 75 sec since I wanted Nexus aswell) and 55k OG, my skills cost nothing and my damage still overkills if detonated or bleeds enemies out in seconds if left alone in SP (for hours). Like what more do people need?
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Dual Ichor
Nami Solo
Bo (Prime)
Sancti Magistar
Ack & Brunt
Burston (Prime)
Torid
Dual Toxocyst
Ceramic Dagger (due to what it enables on pseudo exalteds)
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Cant speak for solo, but in group Nezha with the Divine Spears augment worked well. I had a -75% duration modifier aswell which combined well with it, since it ment things died fast due to stacked statuses "exploding" and that I could recast it often. But it also depends what weapons you have access to. I was lucky with Kuva Kohm, Zakti Prime and Dual Keres Prime.
Plus, also consider all missions before heading full speed onto building for the defense. Hence why I picked Nezha, since the last missions was Disruption, so my wrathful build works there aswell.
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As skins maybe. But still, what gives the operator/drifter the right to abuse the frame? All frames were made from and still are invdividuals. I guess war crimes arent enough for the child soldier to get their fix anymore?
Though you can win me over if I can get a mare skin for Loki! That way my drifterator can get into some more Mengele-esque experiments and start trying to cross-breed frames with kaithes, or maybe those owls or goat things. Uber-Sleipnir or maybe a "human" centipede but with frames!
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I just cant get away from melee influence on him together with insane amounts of crit chance and crit damage in total.
Right now I'm getting a flat +600% total crit with Wrathful+Avenger, then a bit over 100%+ on the weapon itself, depending which one I use, for atleast 700% crit chance in total. I've swapped out Ukko for Roar and practically never Curse, since Influence already kills everything 20-26(29) meters around me depending on the weapon and how close to me the enemies get hit. When I do use Curse it is before I unload the alt fire on my Grimoire.
It is also why I have a love-hate relationship with my Smeeta Dizzy atm, since at times she ends up drooling and looking at me with the "I haz prezent 4 u mastur!" look and grants me her crit "buff", dumping me down to 200% crit instead. Well atleast she tries! I'm glad I can stuff her back in the Orbiter as soon as my boosters run out. Only 35 more days or so with a slightly mentally disabled kavat by my side. It gives me time to decide if I'm gonna go back to my Panzer, the Hound or start utilizing my Adarza.
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That is my point. People didnt start complaining until Tragedy got LoS aswell, since at that point they knew LoS was part of the kit, which skipped past many at his initial release. Which also resulted in them thinking it was Tragedy that did it when Dark Verse had the old and wonky LoS check. This patch, which notes we are discussing things in provide all the proof you need that Dark Verse was indeed bugged or well used a poor LoS system.
E/DA implements the challenge of DRG's Deep Dives with none of the joy
in Deep Archimedea Feedback
Posted · Edited by SneakyErvin
How? It isnt like people would be able to pick their weekly modification pulls freely out of a massive pool, it would be 8 random modifications instead of 4 RNG items + 4 modifications. So it wouldnt get more trivialized than now, since you'd never know which combos would be present during the week until that week comes around. The simple part of having 1 free choice now is enough to trivialize the current system and likely far easier than it would be to trivialize it with 4 more random modifications, that could impact those current choices that trivialize every week. The modifications do far more than the RNG choices. The modifications along with the mission type at hand are the only things I've considered so far when it comes to picking that free trivializing choice.
Our power could easily be reigned in by punishing modification and do so far more consistently than pulling weapons from a pool of hundreds upon hundreds of different options. Those punishing mods would come around more often and in greater combination due to the pools being significantly smaller than that of weapons. They could also force certain modification types to always roll each week.
Plus we dont know the ins and out of the current RNG system, how forgiving it is, if it gives you atleast one weapon family you own per category or not. I'm yet to end up wth a week where I dont own atleast 1 item in each. Which would also make the system pointless since players can avoid heavy performance loss by removing weapons families/frames. With modifications they wouldnt be able to remove and avoid, since they'd still need atleast 7/8 active for "full" rewards from the mode and the mods are tied to the mode and not what you own or doesnt. If they can remove weapons/frames and be left with "OK" options in their mind, then the system serves no purpose. And if it doesnt guarantee atleast an item per category that you own, well then arbitrary RNG that does nothing for balance simply locks players out from obtaining rewards. It doesnt reduce their power during the week since they dont even have the option to use that downscaled power, since they dont own the item in the first place.
edit: Just want to add. I'm currently in the process of upgrading all my owned melee weapons. So if atleast one of those gets pulled there wont really be anything to the mode that could be considered difficult. Since I have enough frames, which I use as my weekly free choice that enables melee well enough to make any combination trivialize the mode. I could potentially turn up SoL if it can pull only things I dont own, but at that point it depends on how many categories I miss out on in a pull. If 1, ok, the system pushes me to use what is handed to me while I can ignore that pull I dont own, but if is is 2, well then there is no reason to worry, since I wont hit EDA anyways for max rewards, so might aswell use more of what I want than that which is pulled for me.