[Concerns about Railjack costs and future progress]

4 hours ago, UNO168 said:

DE just want ppl to cave and buy those resource boosters, especially on argon crystal that will disappear 24hrs after, asking ppl to farm 15 of these like you're working in warframe instead of playing it is despicable

3 hours ago, Aadi880 said:

But 15 argon crystals though...sheesh... well, might was well farm Vectis prime while I'm at it.

Argon is ridiculously overblown by the average masses. This is the only time you might ever actually need to farm it. All the other Argon costs are just passive oh-look-a-void-mission checks because you just trip over them all the time.

Essentially:

3 hours ago, (NSW)Belaptir said:

Second: What are you talking about? Like, really. You might need to do 3-4 runs of any exterminate mission in the void and you probably will have them all without boosters. Granted it's random and you might need a few more. But so what? God forbid DE making us work towards a goal! I seriously doubt it would take you more than 1-2 hours to farm all the argon crystals, are you being obtuse on purpose or just plain lazy?

This is the absolute truth.

The Teshub node is your friend. Lockers and containers are your friend.

Run 1: 9 Argon (with a little kitten free-resource-spawn assist).

Run 2: 3 argon.

Run 3: My cat stacked just 2 affinity boosts together at a useful time, and I walked out with 20 argon from that one mission.

These runs took around 15-20 minutes each and that's purposefully going out of my way for every last container and locker in the map (all the hidden ones I know of, too). Realistically, you burn through twice the missions in half the time, and keep an eye out for those lovely little Pegmatite containers that throw out 1-2 guaranteed crystals in addition to your RNG loots.

You don't even have to do it all at once. Argon doesn't decay once it's contributed to the build.

 

And in case the odd-numbers from my missions somehow didn't give it away, yes, that's without a Resource Drop Booster. Otherwise I would have been done in the first run - or have walked away with 49 excess argon quite literally burning (themselves into) a hole in my pocket.

[With Ivara Prime on the horizon, here is the comprehensive overview of shortfalls that should be investigated and addressed.]

9 hours ago, (XB1)Knight Raime said:

Vortex and bastille provide different benefits despite both being cc tools.  Dash wire only exists for movement because it doesn't provide any other functionality to her kit without an augment.  If Ivara had full movement capabilities it 100% becomes invalidated when not using the augment.

I personally use a bow or baza.  I don't feel forced into using a silence mod.  My point is that sleep arrow allows her to take advantage of prowl's innate benefits more easily.  and if Ivara never had to worry about uncloaking said benefits from sleep would be lessened.

I apologise for being too ambiguous with these - for Vauban's kit, I referred to his new 'tether mine' versus the Vortex part of his current 4th ability, named "Bastille/Vortex". Bastille and Vortex do have different enough functions, but the Tether Mine is simply a cheaper and fewer-targeting Vortex.

Naturally silent weaponry I thought was redundant to mention. But, there are not a lot of them in the grand scheme of some 84 unique primaries (primes/variants disregarded) and 79 unique secondaries (variants disregarded but including kitgun types). It's still a limitation that you do have to engage with - harshly limit your toolset, or spend that extra mod tax keeping quiet.

9 hours ago, (XB1)Knight Raime said:

Her cloak is a toggle.  Which is already far better than every other cloak option in the game and I feel you're undervaluing it on purpose.  Her cloak is also the only cloak that comes with extra benefits.  She gets extra multipliers for headshots and loot capabilities.  Every other cloak in the game simply gets to be invisible.  Them being able to move about unhindered isn't a big deal.  You can argue it's unfun to play slower.  But I don't know why you'd be playing a frame designed to be this way if that's something you're not interested in.  As I said.  I can agree that some of the drawbacks are a bit much.  But she absolutely needs drawbacks for her stealth.

Channelling has its own implicit drawbacks, namely to energy regeneration. Yes, you can work around this with things like Arcane Energise, or Sharpshooter (if you want to pay even more mod tax). I treat duration-based abilities by the "Energy Siphon Threshold" - if a build can cover the cost with that 0.6 energy per second, then it can, functionally, be indefinite. This is something I've mentioned before. Even Ash's paltry 8 second base passes this test. Anything channelled, of course does not. It also imposes a limit on the total effectiveness of the build as Duration and Efficiency tie onto the same statistic - you can only reach 'full efficiency', you cannot reach full efficiency and a longer duration (which is more effective efficiency beyond).
You might argue the 'window of opportunity' for re-casting - this is as fixable in build as anything you can do to alleviate Ivara's problems, e.g. by timed Rolling Guards. Octavia doesn't even suffer this as the stealth buff is disjointed from the ability.
Prowl, therefore, wins only by AFK, as I stated previously. You can sit AFK and remain hidden better than anyone else, assuming Octavia's not abusing a macro.

It's not unfun to play slower - unless you're playing slower for tantamount no reason, as Ivara has to. That little headshot bonus? It's a forgettable, background benefit. Half the time the hitboxes for headshot feel like being temperamental, or your targets might not technically even have heads, so does it really justify that much of a drawback? Similarly the pickpocketing, while 'a bonus', is so tedious it requires you to stop everything else. Again, not a prominent enough draw to have a constant drawback in all usage - and let's not forget it has the unique property of being able to be made worse (<100% strength) with no corresponding benefit (>100% strength); the literal definition of being an arbitrary drawback for the sake of drawbacks.

9 hours ago, (XB1)Knight Raime said:

In non solo missions my survival is rarely a problem.  If it's an exterminate mission i'm probably teamed up with trash clearing frames.  If i'm doing an endless mission I have options.  Usually siting up on a dash wire being cloaked when I feel like I need to move.  I agree that traps draining energy is a poor thing that should go.

Any damage suffered on a naturally squishy frame is its own penalty. Statuses and traps are the worst offenders for just draining away reserves outright, but even the incidental touches and crossfire should go - you need to be cloaked to keep going when things get at all challenging, as you say, so being forced out of that, on an ability that is also terminal due to channelling if you can't go get energy top-ups, is poor design.
Even in solo you can get caught up sometimes, when enemies have some mission objective to target and, being in stealth, you can't hear that good old NpcThrownGrenadeWeapon about to obliterate the universe, as it tends to do.

9 hours ago, (XB1)Knight Raime said:

Cloak arrow in my opinion has never existed for Ivara herself but for allies.  Simply to have a built in method to share her invisibility without needing an augment.  AFAIK her cloak arrow is just straight invisibility.  So buffing it or prowl I don't think will effect the other one.  Simply because by design prowl is for ivara and cloak arrow is for others.  I don't agree about your energy point as energy is rarely a problem for Ivara if you specifically build with duration and efficiency in mind.

If Cloak Arrows could be Navigated and actually stuck to myself, I'd probably try to do that quite often instead of lumbering around in Prowl. Admittedly, Prowl became slightly less inferior an option even in this case when Nullifiers got yet another function to put on their Majestic Tower of Hats, since before that it took overlapping Ivara herself to reveal her inside the Cloak area, as it would while Prowling (plus she could move around inside the area less slowly).

Cloak for others, though, it'd be nice if there was a 'hold option' for Navigator that would let us auto-mark a target to make sticking them easier. It's such a nice function, but so unreliable. Even AI Operatives can take a few shots when they decide to start wandering.

I assume, again, that you're utilising Arcane Energise for the energy problem. I tried for a while to run Ivara before I had that available and ranked, and really, the orbs are just too unreliable - especially if you're losing energy from those extra melee/damaged taxes, or using more than Prowl. That and (Primed) Flow too - all these are near-mandatory taxation not to improve, but to maintain necessary function.
Maybe you can circumvent the energy problem. I know I can, wild traps/dots notwithstanding. But the design of the frame should not be for the '1%' - especially when the active playerbase for the frame is so vanishingly small it doesn't even exist on a stacked bar graph.

9 hours ago, (XB1)Knight Raime said:

No it wouldn't.  Then again, if ivara wasn't a frog princess they wouldn't be making a jelly fish prime.  I see where your point is but I find that to be more of a nitpick rather than an actual counter argument.  It feels more like a distaste.

You know the 'six degrees of separation' theory? Almost anyone can be connected with anyone else, through that few total social links? Consider that when it comes to thematic design.

Say we accept this, then years down the line we get Ivara Umbra or something. Now, since we have precedent that we can take degrees of separation, Ivara Umbra can now be designed after anything not only related to her 'deadly woodland huntress' interpretation which became Poison Dart Frogs, but also her Prime's 'passive-but-deadly unrelated water creature' jellyfish incarnation. If you pick out arbitrary facets of a frog and/or a jellyfish, then you can make the same argument for a whole slew of wildly unrelated entities to base Umbr-Ivara upon. Literally anything aquatic is fair game, for instance, because you have at least 'two connections' in that it corresponds with Jellyfish and Frogs. Doesn't have to hunt or even necessarily deadly - we've already linked it two times, despite both being through degrees of separation.

It dilutes the theme. You have to tie it to the foundation. If you build a structure with a thin base that only gets wider as you go up, you're going to have stability problems.

I'm aware that may seem esoteric and theoretical, but at its core the point is that making such a logical leap should only come after exhausting any inspiration from the foundation of the theme.

 

6 hours ago, Ichsuisme said:

Ivara's strong and she's in a good place. I do all my arbitration with her, and only her. Most importantly, to me at least, Ivara is one of the few frames in the game that I consistently switch between builds, depending on how I'd like to play. For example, when I take my Vauban, gara, baruuk, or whoever, I really just stick to my one-size-fits-all build; but with Ivara, I've got a range of options.

I feel Ivara can be strong, but she's not in a good place. If she were, you'd see more of her - I'm sure that graph DE gave us counts solo missions as well, yet Ivara's still practically nonexistent on it. As I like to put it, she's functional, even strong, but all in spite of herself - and those many little and larger faults.

There are a few frames that can be serviceable in many tasks with a single build. Even myself with Ivara, I generally stick to my basic 'sneak and huge-range Quiver' build for most content, unless I really need powerful Navigator/Artemis Bow - my risky, max-strength min-duration C loadout - or I'm specifically out to sit forever-prowling and steal - my paper-thin but all the duration, energy, efficiency and range (in that order, but without sacrificing 100% strength for obvious reasons) B loadout.
I think that's more a personal factor - I have variant builds on my own Gara and Baruuk for different approaches.

However, I might argue that Ivara is obliged to strongly different mod builds for her varying functionality, just to compensate the caveats in the kit - where others can make strong primary functions without leaving them at a complete loss of the things the build disfavours.

6 hours ago, Ichsuisme said:

Unless it's a capture, exterminate, or other mobile mission, I always use my dashwires. I have no issues using them. They are great. Cloak and sleep arrows are also great.

Ok, we agree on this. Noise is pretty much pointless. It needs a secondary effect -- maybe enemies could show up on the map like Banshee's sonar. I don't need a game-changing buff, but I need a reason to use it. In fact, I can't remember the last time I used noise arrow.

As a first ability, Quiver is overall excellent. I hesitate to say that Cloak and Sleep are fundamentally flawed, just that it would be nice if their baselines were bumped up a little so that it isn't required to go quite as hard into duration/range stats; Cloak's unfortunate companion issue being directly solved is the only real 'hard ask' I make there.
Dashwires I use infrequently but despite this, the issues I mentioned often occur. Out on the open-worlds it shows up a lot - whether that's range-based or odd scenery hitboxing. The refund on a 'fail' is my bare minimum expectation and an easy change. Passing over the hit detection to see if it can be improved is a nice to have, better range would make it more forgiving in those really wide areas, but those are at DE discretion.

Noise does give off a sort of 'sonar ping', so your suggestion is a good one, I think. Perhaps it could be extended to mark enemies revealed in this way on allied minimaps as well, and/or highlight them, like the Kavat 'Sense Danger' mod. We already have a harder in-combat control in Sleep, so forcing a weaker 'distract' for alerted enemies may be mildly redundant.

6 hours ago, Ichsuisme said:

Navigator is a mess. I don't like the skill, it really does have awful controls. I know it's the key to Eidolon hunts with Ivara, but in all other missions it's just too messy to use & the flight duration is a pain, especially since it takes me awhile to actually hit anything. And if I'm going to spend the time driving a projectile around, I need it to feel worth it. I need more than raw, pointless, over-kill damage.

I actually used Navigator from an early stage with Ivara - back when Sorties were less refined in their challenge (or maybe I was just insufficiently built on her) I remember having great fun taking a Heavy Caliber Ogris and solving the 'shoot myself in the foot' issue by navigating rockets into the next room to clear it out before I ever needed to reveal myself.

Greater control finesse would solve a lot of the issues and inconsistency (anyone who's tried to navigate the Lanka knows about the effect inherent projectile speeds can have). Adding infinite enemy punch-through, even if it's only on the augment, would give it a better identity as something other than overkill, especially with static energy costs. The 'rule of cool' says that navigating my single arrow through a legion of Grineer all flooding down the corridor towards me is not overpowered!

It's hard to argue with 1500% or higher damage buffs on something that persists, though. Zenistar-Navigator was lovely, before both lifespan pausing was removed, and the Zeni-disk duration base was annihilated recently.

Do you have any other thoughts on Navigator functionality besides these/the baseline?

6 hours ago, Ichsuisme said:

Prowl is a good skill. As long as you have energy, you can stay in stealth and energy isn't super difficult to keep up. The movement restrictions are unique and I actually like them -- playing Ivara and relying on smart jumping and roll dodging as made me a better player. I would be sad to have those movement restrictions lifted, I want them to stay. You mentioned the noise issue with prowl but now that we have weapon exilus slots, prowl was buffed; although even before these exilus slots, I wasn't struggling with this. Before, I just modded for silence or used a innately silent weapon. Energy being drained on movement, receiving damage, and melee kills never felt great. Those costs should definitely be removed. Lastly, given Ivara's diverse build choice, I don't think the steal chance shouldn't be tied to power strength.

Perhaps the augment could be refined the opposite way - to restrict but add real benefits - if it really meant that much to you, but overall, the issue is that the ability is not providing enough baseline benefits - compared with similar abilities - to justify so many caveats in using it. Inherent slowness is often a denier of co-op play, because you just never get anywhere before the fight's over; tying this into something you're expected to rely on to survive is just painful.

As I said in the other block of replies - energy is more difficult to keep up for Prowl than anything else, because they can all be indefinite with a single Energy Siphon. Short of Arcane Energise/Sharpshooter snipers, it's very possible, even expected, to run short of energy in Prowl, particularly if you're also using your Bow and Quiver to accomplish more alongside it than just 'not getting shot'.

Objectively, even with weapon exilus, the obligation to silence the weapon is still a tax Prowl forces you to pay. You pay an adapter to unlock the slot, or you pay a 'power slot' in the main build, and you might even have to pay an extra Forma if the Exilus came with Madurai polarity instead of Naramon. All just so you don't give enemies free tickets to murder you.

The steal-strength issue is one of being a drawback for drawback's sake. It doesn't exist as a 'choice', it exists purely as a penalty - because there's no beneficial aspect to higher strength, for stealing, only a chance to get screwed over on what is already a mechanical chore. Other looting abilities, although most are augments, are still strength agnostic; except I believe Atlas' Ore Gaze scales with strength, but positively as well as potentially negatively.

6 hours ago, Ichsuisme said:

Her Artemis bow is fine. It's strong and I like the charge level determining the angle of the shot. My one note to give is that the other exalted weapons feel stronger. The augment for this on the other hand is terrible.

Like @DatDarkOne said, you nailed it here. It's a bad mod. Sleep arrow can help with head shots since enemies won't be moving, but even that takes too long to set up. I just end up frustrated and wasting my time. I can kill enemies quicker without the mod. The augment should just be a guaranteed lenz-type shot without the lenz's delay.

I'm not against the gradual charge-angle motion, I just find it odd and (very situationally) inconvenient that I can fire / but never \ in those edge cases where a diagonal shot is optimal.

Concentrated Arrow could be taken in so many ways, but fundamentally I feel like its name is so misleading it should never have hit release.

Shooting 'one fat arrow' has been a pretty common desired option for Artemis Bow, whether or not they were talking about the augment, and I like it for the potential with Navigator. Taking the bomb out of the equation for a moment, can you visualise a build with both actual Concentrated Arrows and the 'infinite enemy punch-through' Piercing Navigator I suggested? That one fat ballista bolt carrying its hefty, multiplied damage through as many troops as you care to - especially if the concentrated arrow had a nice generous hitbox. It sounds like spicy fun to me.

[With Ivara Prime on the horizon, here is the comprehensive overview of shortfalls that should be investigated and addressed.]

2 hours ago, DatDarkOne said:

Where did you find this absolutely false rank from.  EVERYONE knows Ivara is the Survival Queen and pretty much undisputed in that title.

Assessing the core EHP statistics of the Warframe plus any abilities that directly enhance this. It's a measure of direct survivability (enduring damage) versus indirect (circumventing damage).

Compare Ivara with Ash, for example. Ash's superior health and armour make him less reliant on stealth, and as such has the least generous duration, although still within the Energy Siphon Threshold for indefinite sustain.

2 hours ago, DatDarkOne said:

I actually don't have any of those problems with Dashwire.  

It's most noticeable the more open the area is that you're trying to use it. Large open arenas or defense tiles, Open World zones, and any time you're trying to chain together less prominent scenery objects. It's worth a revision pass to see if it could be improved, and I'm sure you'll agree that the energy refund I suggested is still fair.

2 hours ago, DatDarkOne said:

Covert Lethality was a crutch.  After doing numerous Stealth Kills with EVERY MELEE in the game using Sleep Arrow, I can honestly say that I don't miss Covert Lethality at all because it was never needed.  

Well, I did say possibly. It was certainly nice to have the hard-kill option, making it as strong a tool for Ivara's kit as those who argue Concentrated Arrow is 'usable' because it interacts well with Hunter Munitions.

2 hours ago, DatDarkOne said:

This was done intentionally by DE after certain Tenno used Navigator on Arca Plasmor to wipe out most enemies in PoE and other places with just one bullet.  Before this was added, Navigator DID pause lifespans on all projectiles.  (info given for those who might not have known this)

It's possible I only caught this after the fact, I remember doing my usual navigator projectile tests while levelling the Arca Plasmor and being confused by its abrupt disappearance. Still, the energy cost issue should have prevented abuse as egregious as you suggest, and I'd argue the bulk of the problem is in the Plasmor itself, being a 'shotgun' without any of the pellet-spread caveats that usually mitigate their superior damage output.

_{Besides, I miss my UFO Zenistar now more than ever.}

2 hours ago, DatDarkOne said:

This is just an opinion and not fact.  

Only bulletjump and Sprinting is effected.  Ivara can still parkour.  Meaning Jump, Doublejump, AimGlide, Wallrun, roll, Air roll, Backflip, Air Backflip.  (info given for those who might not have known this and clarity)

This one is extremely simple.  Just mod for Efficiency.  

While we can differ on whether to call them "crippling" or not, they are necessary for a few reasons.  Without those drawbacks, Ivara would be an OverPowered Beast.  I'm using the old school meaning of over powered and not the watered down version from this decade.  😄  The drawbacks IMO are necessary because they keep people from coming on the forums and screaming "NERF IVARA!".  Which hasn't stopped a few from trying just that over the last 4 years.  

- It is objectively a vastly limiting ability, and offers little benefit to justify the numerous (mostly hidden) drawbacks, compared to similar abilities.

- Bullet Jump is the biggest offender, doubly so due to the fact we had a bullet jump for a very long time before that so-called 'bug fix'. Bunnyhopping and rolling cannot hope to measure up with the proper execution of mobility tools which include those disallowed by Prowl, as these fail to conserve and build on momentum. Also you missed sliding as a restricted act.

- Treating the symptom does not cure the disease. Whether you lose 10 energy or 2.5 energy per tick of 1 damage is irrelevant when it can still build up to hundreds of meaningless energy drain. Building to mitigate those as much as possible also hamstrings your duration stat, making Quiver's best tools markedly less useful. Even the extra on-moving cost is disingenuous because it means the ability UI is flatly lying to the player by only displaying the stationary cost. And none of it is justified. Not in Warframe.

- Octavia exists. That alone defeats any hope of Ivara being 'beastly overpowered' just because she can actually move around reasonably well while in her survival obliging stealth state. I'm sure you mean no disrespect as I do not, but this is literal fear-mongering used as an argument. One minor and situational damage enhancement and one tedious looting ability that requires you to sit by enemies without letting them die does not overpowered make.

2 hours ago, DatDarkOne said:

Here's the problem with this statement.  Non-solo (meaning your teammates) sabotage everything about Ivara's intended playstyle.  So much so that I learned a long time ago that when playing with groups it was overall better for me as Ivara to move away from them.  Using Dashwire to get above them, move off slightly to the side, or anything that could get me away from the "Anti-Stealth, Gotta-go-fast, Leeroy Jenkins" teammates who were almost guaranteed to get you killed.  Over 90% of all the deaths I've gotten in the 4 years that I've been playing Ivara all came while I was in a group mission.  Let that sink in.  😄  

That is only when you try to play her outside of her Designed intent.  Ivara was designed as a Solo Infiltrator/Hunter/Assassin.  Notice I said solo.  Almost everything you listed as either bad or a drawback cease to be so while she's solo.  So much so that you can easily say that Ivara actually is more Powerful solo than with a group.  There aren't many frames or a very elite few that can solo pretty much all of the game, has the tools to do so, and change tactics in the middle of a mission.  This is all with the Drawbacks you mentioned. 

As a primarily solo player myself, I can attest that DE has routinely either ignored or actively sabotaged the solo player's lifestyle anyway, so there is no excuse for them to retain these issues on Ivara that so strongly disincentivise taking her out of her private little hunting grounds.

No stealth-based frame really enjoys getting caught up in allied crossfire - and even Ivara in solo has that issue sometimes when using Cloak Arrow because of rogue kavats going out to attack and alert the enemy, or putting the bubble in just the wrong place that a sentinel peeks out above it. The existence of unnecessary extra energy penalties to that in Prowl simply breeds contempt for the ally who caused it.

But, as that selfsame solo player? All those issues I mentioned are still issues I have observed, frequently, while making Ivara useful in spite of them. 'Keeping up in non-solo' was just an example case. Wanting to keep mobility without committing suicide is perfectly applicable to lone players too. Just because she's an 'infiltrator', a hunter, a tracker, doesn't mean that she has to be glacial; infiltrating against intelligent opposition is as much about moving quickly when you find opportunity as it is being cautious until those opportunities present themselves.

[With Ivara Prime on the horizon, here is the comprehensive overview of shortfalls that should be investigated and addressed.]

6 hours ago, (XB1)Knight Raime said:

You make some decent points But I pretty heavily disagree with your issues with prowl and how you feel about her prime/deluxe.  I can agree to a point that prowl itself might have too many checks in place for balancing.  but I disagree with your approach to it and your solutions.  You're basically asking for her to have the best cloak in the game when there isn't even thematically a reason for that.  Not to mention asking for it's drain to be increased as compensation is just lazy.

If she retained full mobility dashwire becomes less valuable.  Positioning would be less important. If she didn't break cloak for using non silenced weaponry then sleep arrows become less valuable.  etc.  She's meant to play slowly and methodically and you seemingly have an issue with that despite her theme being a favorite of yours.

As far as her prime goes it actually fits Ivara quite well.  Frogs and jelly are both water based creatures.  Both can be poisonous.  Ivara is referred to as a frog princess which implies gracefulness and beauty.  Jelly are considered to have both traits.  The only "clash" here is the hunter thing.  Her deluxe leans more into that combat centric aspect of her design.  As that one is more of a forest guardian.  And forest guardian's in many mythos do feature hunter like beings as protectors.

It's perfectly fine for you to not be into either things visually but both the deluxe and her prime do hit key notes in her overall thematics.

I can't agree with any of your points on why Prowl deserves to stay for the sake of arbitrary Quiver arrows. Vauban's recent rework includes a grenade that shares functionality with Bastille/Vortex. Kits can have overlaps without being an issue, but calling Prowls concrete overshoes justified in order to keep Dashwire relevant is simply short-sighted. That's not a synergy, that's a bit of padding to soften something strictly there to inconvenience the player.

I disagree that Sleep arrow has any relevance to the exposure problem either. In practice, Ivara's just obliged to put Hush, Silent Battery and Suppress on her gear if she wants to remain prowling. That's no gameplay decision, that's an out-of-mission tax.

 

Saying 'Ivara is designed to be slower-paced' falls under this same question of execution. Is she designed to be slower-paced, because it grants benefits above and beyond similar Warframe abilities and kits? Or is she obliged to be slower paced simply because the mechanics penalise or prevent anything else with little to no compensation? Either Prowl would need a laundry list of reliable benefits to compensate the crippling drawbacks, making it arguably 'the best stealth ever', or it needs to have those needless drawbacks removed outright, wherein it simply becomes... comparable, and still not 'the best stealth' - that's going to still be Octavia's.

The impetus to be slow and methodical is not a positive influence. Ivara relies on stealth for survival, but everything acts to sabotage that. Want to keep up in non-solo missions? Endanger yourself. Caught a DoT status or broke a window? Endanger yourself or lose stacks of energy. In a Grineer mission? Better check yourself before you accidentally yourself onto an Arc Trap. All that, to 'balance' against the benefits of 'minor personal headshot bonus' and 'barely functional looting bonus'.

Also, if you'll allow me to flip the equation and use your own argument for Dashwire, doesn't a crippling Prowl make Cloak Arrows less desirable, or vice-versa? That bubble already fills the stationary stealth niche, and is arguably a better option because you can generate energy (and not lose extra for crossfire/status/melee-strikes). Prowl should be the mobile tool, but it inhibits so much mobility it can't fulfil that.

 

Design-wise of the Prime and Deluxe, that's more of a personal thing (though I see most sharing the opinion, I know better than to take that as objective majority vote). I don't even see a theme on the Deluxe, it's just a mess of elements stabbed onto a frame to my eyes.

With regards to the Prime, though, you're playing the degrees of separation to justify the Jellyfish. Where the original is <Dart Frog> = <Deadly> + <Woodland> you're now taking the added leap of <Jellyfish> = <Deadly> + (<Frog> = <Aquatic>) which means you're building from the wrong part of the foundation. This makes the Jellyfish direction more of a 'flying buttress' extension than one with its own directly-grounded base. It's not relevant to Ivara's theme, it's relevant to Ivara's Theme's theme.
Think of it like this: If Ivara's base frame design had chosen any other deadly/poisonous woodland creature or hunter than an amphibious frog to fit her theme, would Ivara Prime make any sense?

 

26 minutes ago, Xzorn said:

Invisibility = Weak survival... Oh Warframe.

Ivara is near perfection in her role, her kit, her versatility and her potency.

Her Noise Arrow is the only ability I could see making a reasonable argument and 1 out of 7 is exceptionally good for this game. Maybe some bugs but stuff like "No other stealth Warframe limits in this way" - No other stealth Warframe gets head-shot multipliers in addition to melee stealth multipliers either. Some of this isn't a bug to fix really. She's not supposed to cloak mobile defense objectives and Artemis bow uses shotgun mechanics so buffs get divided.

Concentrated Arrow required head-shots is pretty easy when you have no stealth timer and can AoE sleep enemies.
100k Bleed ticks with 15k AoE ticks is pretty solid, it's far more energy efficient and does more than the base version. It's probably Ivara's best option since the Bow buff otherwise might as well not even use Artemis bow really. Why she didn't come with Daikyu Prime I've no idea but that thing..... why even use energy.

Maybe you're intentionally misreading, but Invisibility is a method of survival. So is direct numerical damage mitigation. Because Ivara is one of the weakest at mitigating or enduring damage, she relies on stealth to survive. That's all. But, in that context, the stealth should be reliable, not something from which you're routinely forced to expose yourself.

No other Warframe specifically gets headshot multipliers, but last I checked, Ash stunned enemies, Wukong's cloud grants mobility and stuns enemies, Octavia has all those other buffs attached and can give it to her entire squad. Loki then is the only one you have a baseline argument for. His is an old kit that does few things, but well. Then you look into the attached augments where appropriate - now Ash too can extend stealth to friendlies and Loki gets free silencing to avoid the several mechanics and attacks that will happily pinpoint anyone who makes an alarming sound, visible or not. Ivara gets some of the concrete chipped off her feet and a largely redundant laser bypass (which, because Prowl is so glacial, is probably slower to use than just going around them the normal way).

 

I think you misunderstood the issue of cloaking mobile defendable targets. Not Mobile Defense consoles, but any allied units you need to defend which move. That's just a personal bugbear because those drones in that one Orb Vallis objective should absolutely be cloak-friendly.

The buff issue is inarguably a bug. That 'shotgun mechanic' is and always has been nonsensical. If you have a weapon that shoots 1000 damage over 10 projectiles of 100 each, your 500% damage buff should result in 10 projectiles of 500 damage each (total 500% damage), not 10 projectiles of 15 damage each (total 150% damage).

 

Concentrated Arrow is still a misnomer. But I'm not saying they have to remove the bomb - just give the base arrow the concentrated damage and it's already viable for more than the awkward gimmickry that it takes to make full use of that. In my experience it requires far too much sacrifice elsewhere in the kit (plus absolute reliance on Hunter Munitions) to be worth using, especially since failing to headshot - which is incredibly common if you're not blowing all your energy on short-term Sleep Arrows for every single shot too - makes the augment a sevenfold nerf to the ability's output.

I'd personally be happy if it was a bombless exilus augment, but I never said that was what should absolutely be done.

[With Ivara Prime on the horizon, here is the comprehensive overview of shortfalls that should be investigated and addressed.]

6 hours ago, peterc3 said:

Sounds like you want to use other stealthy frames more.

Not at all. It's a comparison study of sorts. The key here is that, from a stealth ability standpoint, Prowl only excels if AFK. Any other stealth can maintain invisibility indefinitely with Energy Siphon, so the 'long channel' is not a strong superiority - and in some ways a drawback in itself due to the overriding of energy regenerating effects.

Prowl feels like it's an ability built into a competitive game. It's stuffed full of random catch-outs and limitations to hinder it like you might see for some reworked, long-overpowered ability in a MOBA. Even the argument of its additional effects doesn't give a strong reason for all of those drawbacks together, especially since the pickpocketing has its own arbitrary drawback and is the worst option ingame besides.

And then you look at Octavia, who in addition to her zero window of visibility, permanent stealth also uses that same ability to grant a whole array of other buffs. What does she pay for it? Needing a bit of timing, or to sacrifice the melody of the song for consistent beats. Completely minor.

There is no reason in Warframe that Prowl alone should have so many limiting factors where similar abilities have one or none. I can guarantee if Loki was suddenly given even half of those caveats, the playerbase would explode at DE.

6 hours ago, Andele3025 said:

The only issues ivara has is the nerf to be unable to bullet jump in prowl and the bug since PoE era where navigator no longer pauses projectiles.

Mentioned the bullet jump thing, but lazy crossposted Navigator assessment forgot to mention that projectile pause. Limited lifespan objects, like the Zenistar-disk, right? Added that into the section.

[With Ivara Prime on the horizon, here is the comprehensive overview of shortfalls that should be investigated and addressed.]

24 minutes ago, Test-995 said:

Mostly agreed with those.

But do not forgot cloak arrow has pitiful duration too, 12 seconds base is little too low, especially when efficiency and strength is the must for her (so you can't really build for duration).

Two of my builds for Ivara use high or maximum duration. The other is absolutely tanking it due to the Navigator antisynergy issue. My go-to is actually a utility build that doesn't even maintain 100% strength (although I try to fill spare capacity to close the gap, so I can steal on occasion without it failing cycles for an hour.)

I wouldn't say Cloak has a terrible base duration either, 12 seconds is already 150% of Ash's Smoke Screen, and even that can be built heavily enough to become paid indefinitely by a simple Energy Siphon.

Bumping up her Quiver radius bases a little would be nicer with the rest of her kit having minimal range stat influences (Prowl stealing, Concentrated Arrow bombs). Potentially not needing to Overextend your cloaks and sleeps would more than make up that Strength desire.

[With Ivara Prime on the horizon, here is the comprehensive overview of shortfalls that should be investigated and addressed.]

Ivara has been a favourite of mine since her introduction years ago. When new content drops, my first choice of approach, invariably, goes back to her. Rathuum, Eidolons, on and on. Now, considering usage data for Warframes was displayed on the recent Devstream 133, one thing I noticed was a near-complete absence of Ivara's key colour where it should be on the graph notable drop-off in usage at higher ranks despite a surge of popularity in the mid-to-late region (which itself is likely for spy purposes and not everyday usage).

So Ivara has many problems. Problems that stop most people extensively playing her. However, this doesn't mean that she is fundamentally bad, or in dire need of a rework - no. Her real enthusiasts come to find she's functional, even powerful, but it comes in spite of herself and the many drawbacks Ivara suffers in core gameplay and kit functionality.

Here I seek to highlight as many key points as possible, as I understand them. With those, we can dive into the realities of Ivara's kit - and the coming Ivara Prime Access - to diagnose what does not work and, ideally, to suggest solutions that can be explored to rectify the issues.

Overview

Spoiler

-Theme

Ivara, the huntress. Ivara - named after a legendary archer, and with name etymology that translates to 'Tree Warrior', draws design inspiration as a forest-dwelling, stealthy huntress-come-assassin. Visual design reflects this by evoking both Tree Frog colouration - particularly notable examples being the vibrant and toxic Poison Dart Frogs - and a kit direction involving Stealth, Bows, and creative utilities to engage targets at distance and without alerting them.

This is followed by her core cosmetics. The Salix Syandana evokes the cocoon - such as that used for chrysalis, hanging safely from foliage until the creature within is ready to emerge - and the Loxley Helmet which, obviously, bears the namesake of a certain famed woodland bowman of legend.

-Gameplay Identity

Ivara is ranked amongst the weakest Warframes in the game for actual survivability in combat. Consequently, her core gameplay identity is to circumvent combat with superior utility (such as crowd control) and stealth. However, due to her huntress and bowmaster roots, this doesn't leave Ivara's identity in the same space as Loki, whose trickster themes see him into a purer supportive/misdirection identity with no direct offensive abilities like Ivara's exalted Bow, and supporting damage buffs present in her kit.

Ivara also has two sub-identities to explore: That of a looting frame (in very specific circumstances, explained more in Abilities/Prowl) and the emergent gameplay of niche builds turning her into an offensive powerhouse against Eidolons - in a manner that befits her creative roots, as this uses preparation to ultimately build a sort of lethal trap, detonated when the time is right - when the Eidolons become vulnerable.

Abilities

Spoiler

-Passive

Spoiler

Ivara's Passive gives her innate enemy radar. I don't think there's anything wrong with this passive thematically or for her gameplay. For a squishy, stealthy tracker, knowing where your opposition is, definitely helps in knowing how to approach.

-Quiver

Spoiler

--Cloak

Cloak Arrows are Ivara's utility and cooperative stealth option, allowing her to extend her hiding places to locations at distance and to entities other than herself. However, this is limited by a few factors.

The base radius of the ability is very poor. Unless attached to the target, this heavily limits mobility - for Ivara herself, currently Prowl has the same issue, making it difficult to choose one over the other generally.
Companions can either float (sentinels) or wander/attack (mobile companions) outside of the cloaked area, becoming visible when Ivara is not. 
It is often very difficult to attach a cloak arrow to a desired target unless that target is immobile. It is also impossible to attach the arrow to the user, even when redirected as such with Navigator.
Some 'units' that should be cloak-able are not (e.g. "protect the drone" objectives in the Orb Vallis)
As a bonus mention, Nullification effects now completely remove cloaked areas instead of simply revealing any hidden units within when overlapped (original and much healthier behaviour, allowing players to move around in the limited space to maintain their needed stealth)

Solutions:
Raise base radius by a moderate amount. Ensure companions correctly inherit stealth at all times. Properly allow all smaller/mobile defense objective units to be cloaked.
 

--Dashwire

Dashwire is one of the most limited usage arrows in the Quiver. It's difficult to find reasons to put down a Dashwire that could not be equally solved by other, innate parkour options, or Aim Glide/Wall Latch. Its primary uses currently are firstly in using the ability's augment to provide power to critical-based weapons at the cost of restricting position, and in circumventing the unnecessary slow of Prowl, including that ability's augment, to (re)gain some movement speed along the Dashwire and when dismounting.

Range and targeting limitations make Dashwires often unreliable to use. The calculation of the wire on projectile impact can even fail to connect to a surface the player is standing on, seeking some point following along the vector behind them, causing additional failures in attempted wire placement.

Solutions:
Revise hit detection/vector logic to reduce failed lines. Improve (or remove) range limitations. Refund energy spent on a Dashwire shot which does not create a functional line.
 

--Noise

The Noise Arrow is the least-used arrow in Quiver, primarily due to complete non-functionality the moment a target is Alerted/Hostile. Its current usage is to (slowly) control the location of enemy units in a solo and/or pure-stealth scenario, either separating units to safely stealth-killable locations or grouping them together for easier control with single Sleep Arrows.

Previously it had the usage of causing retrograde amnesia in Interception missions, which is to say that affected enemies would simply stop engaging with Interception points unless they became alerted after investigating the Noise arrow. This was bugfixed and AI will now resume (but remains a solid strategy for initial grouping of enemies then managed by Sleep Arrow cycling)

Solutions:
Give this Arrow some identity or function when used on units that are alerted, making it usable in situations where enemies will not or cannot be kept unalerted and susceptible to current Noise Arrow usage.
 

--Sleep

Ivara's primary non-stealth option for handling opposition. Sleep Arrow is a potent hard-crowd-control at the designated area. This includes opening up affected targets to Finishers (including stealth or 'back' finishers and parry or 'front' finishers).

It should be noted that this arrow has been indirectly reduced in its offensive utility as a result of the mechanical change to the Covert Lethality dagger mod, meaning that the finishers this ability allows cannot be interpreted into an absolute guaranteed kill. Additionally, units with crowd control reduction (innate or diminishing returns) cause the Sleep Arrow to become barely-functional in some cases due to its base duration

Solutions:
If anything, give a minor radius and/or duration improvement to the ability. Potentially investigate some way to compensate the Covert Lethality loss as this was a thematic fit for the stealthier, assassin-like side of the Huntress.
 

--Augment

Two augments actually exist for Quiver; Empowered Quiver and Power Of Three (a conclave restricted augment).

Empowered Quiver imbues Cloak Arrows with status immunity - which provides limited benefits with the static nature of Cloak Arrows. It may be useful in avoiding knockback effects that would expose the concealed player, and certain risks of Damage over Time (e.g. Venomous Eximi, Mutalist Ospreys) from stacking up while the player cannot move.
It also grants Dashwires the ability to enhance Critical Damage for players standing on them. This can be used to great effect (as in the emergent Eidolon Hunter gameplay) but is limited by the picky nature of Dashwires.
It provides no benefits to Sleep or Noise Arrows.

Power of Three increases the cost of Quiver but fires a triple-spread of the selected arrow. This plays into the alternative arrows Quiver uses in Conclave (which I won't be going into) but would also be useful for covering greater areas with Cloak and Sleep arrows in a single cast.

Solutions:
Improving Dashwires would make Empowered Quiver's buff to them more accessible. Adding functions for Sleep and Noise would be desirable.
Possibly add an alternative augment that replaces certain limited-use arrows (likely Dashwire and Noise) with different ones. Conclave arrows may not be a viable option for this as they are equally niche or overlapping in the case of Slow vs. Sleep; all-new functions may be required instead.
Definitely grant Power Of Three the "universal" attribute and allow it as a resource for non-Conclave builds. It doesn't break anything, and would provide some nice enhancements in team-utility that might bring Ivara out of her primarily solo cave.

-Navigator

Spoiler

--Base

Navigator takes remote-control of a projectile and allows transfers the player's input to the attached projectile, allowing free motion and providing a damage buff to the controlled object.

I can cross-post this ability's issues and core solutions from another thread:

Quote

 

The current Navigator is limited primarily by three things:

Control

The speed of projectiles differing per weapon, and only having two speeds available (initial and More Zoomy) makes many use cases inviable. When looking for fine control, you have to limit the initial speed somehow (such as catching a bow's arrow AFTER it punches through something and loses most momentum).

This should be solved by A) Standardising the speed of Navigated projectiles and B) Adding a greater selection of speeds which increments and decrements with Fire and Aim respectively This could be either 3 or 5 speed depending on the fine control or Excess Fast desirable.

Cost

Previously to Grendel and the Ember rework, Navigator was the only ability with an exponentially scaling cost over time. Unlike Grendel and Ember, Ivara cannot move to pick up energy while Navigating, making this restriction completely unnecessary and begs the question why it was added in the first place. A stationary warframe can already only sustain a channel for so long.

This scaling cost needs to be removed and replaced with a flat per-second drain.

Antisynergy

The Duration Antisynergy problem is thus: You cannot reach high power output Navigation without sub-par duration - adding duration makes the ability worse, you have to wait around and beg for the scaling cost to increase before you're up to speed. In the opposite, going low-duration makes Ivara's primary defensive option of stealth difficult to sustain, and both options still suffer from the Cost Problem by either forcing more Navigation time for costs to scale, or a higher base drain which is scaled up.

This needs to be rectified by either removing the 'damage multiplier scaling' mechanic entirely, standardising it (either to percentage of the max or by tying its value to Strength as well as Duration) or just make it scale with duration, not against duration.

In addition to the above, Navigator is artificially limited by limited-lifespan projectiles - those which simply disappear or return to user after a time. Originally, Navigator overrode this as part of the ability's effects, as some Zenistar enthusiasts discovered to great entertainment. It would be nice if projectile lifespans were once again paused while the projectile is under Ivara's control.

--Augment

Piercing Navigator adds critical chance to the controlled projectile, scaling up with consequent targets. To facilitate the scaling, it adds some punch-through. However, this static punch-through can still reach its limit and prematurely end the ability. Core Navigator issues also greatly limit the functionality of Piercing Navigator.

Solutions:
In addition to the core Navigator changes, Piercing Navigator needs to give more for its cost, and to be reliable in its given function. As such, it should be given unlimited enemy punch-through in the same way the Ignis currently functions, allowing the player to remote-control projectiles through any number of foes (while energy drain permits) but without the developer issue of allowing the player to go exploring outside of the map (as still-limited terrain punch-through prevents this outcome).

-Prowl

Spoiler

--Base

I have a lot of problems with Prowl. It is a mess of an ability with so many hidden caveats (and used to have even more) that it's outright painful to use.. but you have to, if you don't want to keep exposing yourself between Cloak bubbles.

Prowl grants stealth, for an indefinite channelled duration. It also, as ancillary benefits, offers improved headshot damage and pulling an extra loot roll from enemies (stacking with other sources of looting bonus such as on-kill e.g. Hydroid:Pilfering Swarm and 'grave robbing' e.g. Nekros:Desecrate.

However, these are all brought down by an excess of crippling drawbacks, most of which are absolutely unnecessary, often redundant:

Energy Costs: After casting, Prowl drains energy in four different ways. Only one of these is listed in the ability pane. Not all are affected by the same ability statistics equally. These are:

- Base Drain: The listed per-second energy cost. This applies only when the user is immobile, including from outside influences like Knockbacks and Drags but not counting moving level geometry (e.g. standing on Hijack mission objectives). This is affected by the 'channelling cost' paradigm, using both Duration and Efficiency.

- Movement Drain: When moving in any way not attributed to the level itself, Base Drain is multiplied. I thought it was simply doubled. Wiki says it's tripled. Either way it's an arbitrary extra.

- On Melee Strike: Every strike of a melee weapon on a target costs a base 2 energy. This counts multiple enemies in a swing, hitting containers, even Finishers that deal multiple damage instances. This is only affected by Efficiency. This is antisynergetic as Ivara will want to make use of stealth-melee bonuses and finishers. No other stealth Warframe suffers when utilising the stealth-melee bonus.

- On Damaged: Every single tick of damage Ivara receives costs a base 10 energy. This includes everything from gunfire, to environment hazards, to that gradual drain from atmosphere loss when you break Corpus windows, to Arc Traps (which tick very fast), to every tick of a DoT effect, including each of the many stacks of 1-damage toxin just from being near a Venomous Eximus. This is also only affected by efficiency. This is also completely redundant as Ivara is already frail and taking damage is its own punishment. No other stealth Warframe suffers additional negative impact from damage.

Functional limitations: Prowl removes a lot of the player's options or directly penalises them for violating this.

- Concrete shoes: Prowl innately slows the player's movement speed (unless on a zipline) not unlike Nyx's Assimilate augment, except that's not going from immobile to slowly-mobile. No other stealth Warframe limits in this way. It is comparable to Operators going into Void Mode, except they're also invulnerable, again like Assimilate Nyx, along with the invisibility.

- Mobility Tools Stolen: While Prowling you are forbidden from Bullet Jumping and Sprinting in addition to the slower base movement speed. No other stealth Warframe purely limits mobility in this way. Break this rule and Prowl is irrevocably removed, you must cast the ability again including its casting-cost. Additional note: There was a long-standing bug/feature that allowed Ivaras to bullet jump from stationary without breaking Prowl. This made life much more pleasant and was a sick joke to remove years after the fact.

- LOUD NOISES: Prowl forces the player to use naturally silent weaponry, or to consume capacity on a silencing mod. No other stealth Warframe does this. Loki's augment even adds the silencing for you. If you violate this rule, you are temporarily removed from Prowl's stealth. You don't have to expend casting cost, but those enemies already suspicious of the gunfire noise are now presented with a direct, visible target to shoot at. Ivara being as paperlike as she is, this is Not Good. Note that even 'suspicion' is enough to direct many of the game's attacks to the exact position of the noise, which would be risky enough without visible exposure.

- The Worst Looting Ability Ever: Prowl's looting is just the worst. It functions - can only function - on very specific and limited target enemies. Because of the single-targeted nature, the inherent delay, the need to sit close to the target to maintain the process during that delay, it's not a general-purpose looting ability. Making decent use of it requires inaction. But wait, it's Ivara, so we need more arbitrary limitations - sub-100% Ability Strength causes the steal to sometimes fail (where over 100% strength does literally nothing beneficial!) and, despite its awkwardness making it specialised to specific and limited enemies, many of the targets you might want to actually use Prowl on, are considered 'minibosses' and immune to thievery. Great(!)

 

As a stealth ability, Prowl's shining achievement is being the best AFK stealth ability and that's all it has going for it. You can stand, AFK, in stealth, longer than anyone else. The moment you try to do more, you could have been better served if Prowl was Invisibility, Metronome:Nocturne, even Smoke Screen.
Its headshot bonus is the only unimpeded part of the ability (if you don't count poor mobility to aim your headshots and spending mod potential on silencers).
The latter subsection up there sums up the 'pickpocket' aspect.

Why does Ivara uniquely suffer for engaging her core gameplay identity? Should Gauss tear a tendon if he ran for too long, leaving him crippled for the rest of the mission? Should Loki be unable to interact with NPCs because he went invisible once too often and it stuck?

 

SOLUTIONS!
Okay, this is going to sound like an insane buff, but just look at the laundry list of things up there.

Literally remove those extra caveats. Wholesale. No slowed movement. No parkour limitation. No arbitrary energy costs for everything. No breaking stealth. Just let the reliable stealth be the reliable stealth.
Compensate that by doubled base drain if you have to (still equal or less than the moving-cost now depending on what that undisplayed difference is), so it also reduces the AFK-ability. Just let me play the game instead of feeling like I'm as trapped as the Solaris debt-slaves every time I need to not get shot in the face while going somewhere.

I'd also suggest the looting be made more usable. I'm not sure how, but it's really godawful the way it is. Maybe just make it not single-target at once any more?
 

--Augment

Infiltrate has two, equally-redundant effects:

- It increases Ivara's movement speed while prowling. This is something that only matters because of the naturally crippling downside Prowl currently has. Address that, which you should, and it's no longer necessary as a primary benefit.

- It allows Ivara to ignore (most) 'laser barriers' while Prowling. This might be more useful if Prowl didn't already stop most mobility. Being able to bullet jump quickly through lasers? Sure, maybe. But if you're going to be crippled anyway, you might as well just be out of Prowl and going around the barriers. Additionally, though Ivara Prime might counteract this argument: Anyone who earned Ivara through Spy missions is familiar enough with laser barriers they no longer need to ignore them. Experience brings the routine to an easily replicated process.

Solutions:
It's probably safe to replace Infiltrate entirely once Prowl is made not-a-crippled-mess. Anything else on the suggestion list at the time Infiltrate was decided upon - and if memory serves, Infiltrate wasn't even the majority vote then - would be a more attractive augment than this redundant band-aid to a badly undertuned ability.

-Artemis Bow

Spoiler

--Base

Artemis Bow allows Ivara to use her Exalted Bow to fire a spread-shot of multiple arrows. Charging shots rotates the firing spread from vertical to horizontal. Alt-fire also fires the current Quiver arrow quickly.

This is a solid ability that outputs good damage. However, there are some indirect caveats when it comes to certain damage enhancements, which cause the effect to be reduced by a factor of however-much multishot the bow has after mods. Critical damage is also oddly averaged across the full spread of projectiles despite whether each individual arrow actually registers a critical on impact.

It can be awkward at times to control the spread of arrows to the desired orientation. Only one half of diagonal-spreads is traveled through during charge, the other is never attainable.

Solid ability in general.

Solutions:
Investigate oddities of multishot projectiles inheriting damage buffs (personal tests indicate Madurai-Focus Void Strike divides its buff multiplier across the multishot spread, making it at least cut by a factor of 1/7 in effectiveness, more if modded for extra projectiles).
Investigate alternatives for controlling shot orientation?

--Augment

Concentrated Arrow is the name of the mod. Concentrated Arrow is not what the mod does, at all, in the slightest. "Wet Noodle Bomb Arrow" may be more appropriate, because this mod actively nerfs Artemis Bow if you fail to meet its trigger requirements (headshots) with every shot you fire.

Instead of concentrating the multishot spread of Artemis Bow into a single, high-damaging arrow, the augment simply ignores the other arrows, firing off only one (1/7th normal damage output) which, if landing a headshot, then explodes with additional effective critical chance into radial damage. It requires specifically building for, and essentially sacrificing so much of the kit for that one sweet-spot, that it cannot be considered for any realistic build. Gimmicky alternative augment at its finest.

Solutions:

Make the name actually applicable. Concentrate the full Artemis Bow damage into that single arrow. Then, at least it doesn't matter if the player missed the 'bomb' benefit - they still do what Artemis Bow would have done without it. This additionally provides a synergetic build with Navigator; where ordinarily only one Artemis arrow out of 7(+) would be able to be controlled and its damage multiplied, a Concentrated Arrow would be able to apply the Navigator bonus to the full output of the player's Artemis Bow build.

You can keep the bomb for the players who like to build for that, but personally speaking I'd be content if you made it only concentrate the arrows into one and allow it to be one of those few Exilus-slot augments since it wouldn't be granting any inherent buffs of its own.

 

Ivara Prime Access assessment

Spoiler

-Design

Why a jellyfish? What does this match with Ivara's nature, besides (as mentioned in the Devstream) simply being a poisonous creature? Even the 'aquatic' qualifier barely counts; frogs may be amphibious, but we're specifically talking tree frogs for her original thematic, to marry the 'silently deadly' huntress and 'tree warrior' etymology. Jellyfish are.. sea life, purely. They don't even bring in any of the other facets of the theme to counterbalance that. They're just big dumb floating nerve systems that aren't pleasant to touch. Nothing huntery, nothing calculated and planning about them. Frogs might not be hunters either, but at least the type chosen have tied the deadliness into the theme another way.

What you've made is pretty and beautiful, but it's not a pretty Ivara. Sadly, her Deluxe skin from previous teasers looked even worse-representative. It's a real shame her thematic identity will be lost, but evidently we're too far along to hope to change her Prime design now.

-Gear

The Baza Prime is a decent choice as she will naturally carry a primed Artemis Bow; its natural silence does hold relevance in the context of the current atrocity that Prowl is, providing a naturally-silent weapon to not fall victim to unfortunate exposure. This can stay, even though Prowl should no longer necessitate the silent nature of the weapon by release.

The Aksomati Prime should not be released with Ivara Prime. In fact, they shouldn't even be considered for several Accesses down the line. We have a lot of akimbo pistol Primes filling the same role already. The Soma family of crit-based gear is already covered - especially by the AkStiletto as an automatic, but also through the other akimbos filling the crit-role while semi-automatic.

I would heavily suggest evoking Ivara's themes more by introducing something more like a Karyst Prime. This innate-toxin dagger fits the poisonous creature themes Ivara's designs have encouraged, while also remaining a silent option (thus not breaking Prowl, though melee strikes are still problematic as explained above). A dagger is also befitting the hunter/assassin theme, and although Covert Lethality is no longer a one-shot, it still provides a core Finisher-based benefit to daggers, which Ivara freely capitalises on through Sleep Arrows.

 

In conclusion: Ivara needs a breath of fresh air, and taking her many, many shackles off so that people can fully enjoy playing her when Primed, as currently, in so many ways, the experience is more that you're fighting the dev-written caveats in her kit than you are fighting your enemy faction in the mission.

(Also Pinging @BlindStalker my fellow Ivaraphile.)

[Ivara mains, from froggy huntress to jellyfish princess. Your thoughts on Ivara Prime and accessories? (Also Baza Prime and Aksomti Prime)]

I'm unconvinced on the design of Ivara Prime. It's hard to be any less Ivara than the proposed deluxe skin was, but props to DE for finding a way to pull it off, it's sad. Neither of them fit Ivara in any ways but the most superficial. Why a jellyfish other than 'poisonous creature'? I want a pretty Ivara without Tennogen, thanks. You've given pretty, but you've not given pretty Ivara.

 

But visual design aside, how about instead of the completely un-representative AkSomati which we REALLY do not need when we have the whole slew of primed dual pistols - AkStilettos AkJagara AkVasto AkBolto AkLex - already kicking around, most of which already fit the 'crit baby' archetype the Soma family is generally built for..

How about we hit the points of "Poisonous" and match her hunter/assassin/gameplay options and give her a Karyst Prime? Toxic damage - poisonous. Dagger - fits the themes. It actually goes with Ivara's design.

[Ivara's Navigator]

The current Navigator is limited primarily by three things:

Control

The speed of projectiles differing per weapon, and only having two speeds available (initial and More Zoomy) makes many use cases inviable. When looking for fine control, you have to limit the initial speed somehow (such as catching a bow's arrow AFTER it punches through something and loses most momentum).

This should be solved by A) Standardising the speed of Navigated projectiles and B) Adding a greater selection of speeds which increments and decrements with Fire and Aim respectively This could be either 3 or 5 speed depending on the fine control or Excess Fast desirable.

Cost

Previously to Grendel and the Ember rework, Navigator was the only ability with an exponentially scaling cost over time. Unlike Grendel and Ember, Ivara cannot move to pick up energy while Navigating, making this restriction completely unnecessary and begs the question why it was added in the first place. A stationary warframe can already only sustain a channel for so long.

This scaling cost needs to be removed and replaced with a flat per-second drain.

Antisynergy

The Duration Antisynergy problem is thus: You cannot reach high power output Navigation without sub-par duration - adding duration makes the ability worse, you have to wait around and beg for the scaling cost to increase before you're up to speed. In the opposite, going low-duration makes Ivara's primary defensive option of stealth difficult to sustain, and both options still suffer from the Cost Problem by either forcing more Navigation time for costs to scale, or a higher base drain which is scaled up.

This needs to be rectified by either removing the 'damage multiplier scaling' mechanic entirely, standardising it (either to percentage of the max or by tying its value to Strength as well as Duration) or just make it scale with duration, not against duration.

 

These are the core changes needed to make Navigator a fun and more globally useful tool for projectile-weapon based gameplay.

[(PC) The Old Blood Bug Reporting]

I have just confirmed that the 26.0.7 Update did NOT fix the problem of non-spawning Larvlings.

Players affected with this bug (existing since 26.0.4 or 26.0.4.1) experience no light-flicker triggers which commence the 'kill enemies to spawn larvling' window of opportunity. Therefore, missions run by these players - including solo and matchmade games where the player is the mission host - will never allow them to create Kuva Liches.

The only way around this is still to plead for other players to allow taking a larvling OR anti-socially run ahead and steal larvlings from public matches.

 

This is an unacceptable progression-stopping issue (outside unreliable/unhealthy multiplayer interactions) and should have been acknowledged and resolved immediately.

[Is the exponential energy drain a new trend ?]

It's only a new 'trend' in so far as it's happened to finally hit more than one Warframe (and, at that, hit two new ones at a time).

Ivara's Navigator was the first exponential-drainer a long time ago... On a skill that implicitly locks you in place thus stopping you from out-pacing a static energy drain with orb drops. Never made any sense. At least with Ember and Grendel you're mobile through it all.

[(PC) The Old Blood Bug Reporting]

2 hours ago, ScorchedIce said:

Hello, I've had this issue since I vanquished my last Lich, no matter where i go in the star chart, no Larvlings spawn at all. I've decided to ask for help here since usually it wouldn't take more than 3 tries to get one to show up, and today I've been trying for around 3 hours, running exterminations, sabotages and captures in Saturn / Sedna / Lua and still nothing.

That last Lich wasn't killed in any weird way, Vanquished like the others I've had.

Could my account still "think" my last Lich is alive and won't spawn another because of that? Either that or I've had exceptionally bad luck.

Seconding this. No flickering to trigger the kill window regardless of mission. Started occurring as of 26.0.4 (possibly 26.0.4.1 panic-hot'fix' as there was no time to finish off my lich in the interim).

Current workaround is to go into a public mission with a host who isn't suffering the bug and beg them to let you have the kill. This does not correct whatever underlying issue is happening - I just converted my Lich from this workaround and am unable to trigger larvlings again.

This is a critical bug, since you're not guaranteed to find someone kind enough to let you tax their larvling.

[(PC) The Old Blood Bug Reporting]

Hit And Run does not refresh its buff's duration (mechanically, despite refreshing the UI timer) if a second Mercy is performed before the buff expires.

[Is this a joke?]

6 hours ago, G.L.O.R.ious said:

I just wasted 5 forma on the Ogris and guess what: still a piece of trash. No bonus damage, only more capacity without space for other mods.

Level 40 weapons is one of the most disapointing mechanics on the game. I don't recomend it even to peaple that want MR.

This update is making me more sad by the minute.

The Lich bonus damage appears bugged on the explosive weapons specifically, because their total (the number seen in the arsenal) is actually the sum total of both Projectile and Payload - two separate damage entities.
There's something gone wrong in the weapon generation algorithm between those two parts that results in the weapon losing almost as much total damage as it gains, regardless of the actual bonus percentage that the generated weapon should have over baseline.

[Is this a joke?]

4 hours ago, (XB1)GearsMatrix301 said:

Zero polarities? Really? UUUUUGH

It's almost like they're trying to ensure you use Forma on the weapon, thus to discover their other special property.

Ugh(!)

_{real talk though, the Kuva Ogris is just sad. If I wanted faster, smaller explosives I'd use one of the secondary 'Pocket Rockets'.}

[Please DONT change the grendel missions]

Well, I had some mixed results but I can grant the following advice for those looking to solo:

• Hildryn is reliable due to the opposition being Corpus and having good shields to spam pillage against, allowing sustaining some passive damage from her 3, control from tactical usage of 4, and of course surviving. If you want an alternative to those certain start-to-finish-OP frames, look no further than the strong independent woman who don't need no energy.
• Abuse the ever loving hell out of Heavy Slams. Your mileage may very depending on the weapon in question, but even with no combo the damage output and control was as strong as one can hope for with no mods to help. I used the Karyst, because of the free toxin - unfortunately it's not pure toxin any more or it would have been a hell of a lot better.

Bursas will be your biggest nightmare hands down, though. Armour, directional immunity and general pain-in-the-arse-itude are stronger than ever when you're cut down to bare bones.

The Excavation depends heavily on the map and layout for actually being able to complete the drills. My first run aced 4 drills but bugged out and wouldn't spawn any more after the 5th got destroyed, while my second run was an absolute mess of exploding excavators. Luckily you don't need to even have one full-completion to trigger extraction.

Defense was tough and took a good half hour, but keeping my slam-control going prevented the objective from getting overwhelmed while enemies got chip-damaged down.

Survival was easy even solo, I never left the first life support room until ready to extract using this setup.

[(PC) Melee Phase 2: STATS Feedback]

1. The Zenistar disc throw change is terrible, it works counter to the purpose of the melee overhaul by enforcing 'mindless melee spam' simply to attain a useful disk duration now. I get that you were in a tough spot since it's a 'charged' manoeuvre that now has to drain the combo meter in the process, but please consider simply applying the damage and returning the static duration OR, if you really feel like incentivising combo sinking with the Zenistar, make the duration start at its previous 45 seconds then add some FLAT time per combo tier (5 seconds per tier would even out the duration to the current format at 9x multiplier - cap would be 105 seconds at 12x instead of 120, not a big loss for the QoL of base duration).
2. I strongly disagree with your assessment of applying physical damage to the majority of previously elemental weapons. What kind of double-speak is "making status more reliable by adding physical damage" when you know as well as we do that physical statuses are A) largely unwanted unless Slash and B) Heavily influence the odds of the build's elemental procs actually occurring by being weighted, what, 4 times heavier? This is an unwelcome homogenisation of weapons. We like having pure elemental weapons, in every circumstance that isn't broken enemies having 100% immunity to elemental damage through stacked resistances (like Link Trinity used to be - you missed the sensible change to make back there by isolating it to self-damage transferring through the link instead of capping additive resistances).
3. A lot of weapons are going to need much better base status or crit to make use of the base-multiplicative Blood Rush and Weeping Wounds mods to reach comfortable functionality.
   The delta between a non-crit and a crit is often the biggest one (going up to orange and red crits simply being 2's powers while going from non-crit to yellow is a factor of modded crit damage) and Blood Rush allowed almost any weapon to achieve reliable crits during combos.
   Weeping Wounds was incredibly niche at best since there was no benefit from going over 100% status - I can honestly say now I think it won't be used in any meaningful build. Even slash-focused builds would rather slot Viral through dual-stats to improve status chance long before considering Weeping Wounds.

[The HUGE Zenistar nerf]

Zenistar suffered when melee line-of-sight was introduced as a measure to reduce polearm/whip spin-to-win. That was an unfortunate casualty, but fine. We could work around it. Throw the disk into a better spot to look 'over' the smaller obstacles. It still did its job.

Now? It has no real job. Going from what, 45 second throw time to a base of 10 - so you need to hit 5x combo before you even break even and then have to build it again because whoops, there goes half your combo because you dared to throw it out. What's that? It bounced off an enemy or ally and got itself into a bad spot for line of sight? Tough. You'll have to recall it and throw it out again with half the duration gone.

 

It wasn't about AFKing with the Zenistar. It was a tool. A utility. A way to cover your back for those hallway fights so you don't get ambushed. A way to keep one point covered while you defend another (soloing interceptions, for instance - Zenistar covered the first point while you were capturing the rest at the start of the round).

Now you have to spend all your time swinging a weapon which, very likely, isn't even built to be wielded directly.  You had a range of about 100m before the disc was forcibly tethered back. That's a distance that doesn't say you should be stuck fighting where you're throwing it.

Let's be real here, the only reason that it got touched was because it's something that had a charge-attack function and DE couldn't de-couple throwing out the disc from the new heavy attacks, so they thought they had to give it some benefit since it's going to junk the combo counter as collateral.

But we don't want this. We'd be happier if it just inherited the damage multiplier on throw and remained flat in its duration. Maybe give it back the 45 base and code in +5 seconds per combo tier if you really feel like adding some incentive for disc duration. A minor benefit, not an insane penalty for not mindlessly meleeing all the damn time... You know, the thing that prompted this overhaul in the first place?

[Solo Player Experience]

@(PS4)Claudija You might also consider trying to build the Amesha archwing for your troubles in those nodes.

For Rush, though it's a relatively slow 'wing, having its first ability Watchful Swarm active prevents terrain collisions from staggering you while the drones are active (consuming 1 per bump) which can help a lot when you're trying to power through the Corpus trench runs.

Its immeasurable defense and utility should allow you to run in and simply face-tank any enemy units while you're fighting to keep hold of your interception points, too. Hard to fail when you can slow like a Nova while being invulnerable and regenerating all your health and energy consistently.

[Solo Player Experience]

Veteran Solo lord checking in. The OP may seem to be exaggerating as a less-experienced player, but there is a bit of a mixed-results situation for several solo-life experiences.

For example, Interception; yes, you capture your point quicker. On the other hand, you literally cannot be in two (to four) places at once - and some maps are both large and lack line of sight, making this also affect enemy recapture efforts, either while you're still making the initial captures of a round or those times they don't all pile on one point later. It's invariably slower and often irritating for the most part, but not impossible.

Disruption is an insufferably slow affair when alone. You generally can't get key drops fast enough to activate multiple conduits, and if you do, well, you're likely going to start losing them sooner than later. It's poorly designed for squad size scalability.

Spawn issues are a known problem as well - particularly Excavation carriers and historically Survival upkeep - and this is why people have long asked for a "treat me like I'm a full squad" button.

I don't have a problem with standard Hijack, but since Nullification is such a pervasive cancer to the player's arsenal (mechanically speaking), the Sortie Hijacks reduce your options as a lone Tenno to very few approaches. You pick your tankiest non-ability-reliant and, unless it's Inaros who doesn't care enough, do your best to gun down opposition from your field of crippled misery.

 

Solo is a valid and viable path to take, whether it's by necessity or by choice. Whenever anyone has a problem with matchmade influences, the first thing people like to tell them is "go solo then", after all. Interception proves that we can have things scale, even dynamically within a mission, to the player count - even if that's an imperfect example, it's a start. More of the game's design direction should follow that. It wouldn't hurt to make Disruption key carriers more common, and the demolisher's approach direction more easily located for the individual who is tied to exploring one path at a time.

Judging from criticism I've had to supply myself in times past, I agree that DE often seems to have precious little testing for those who don't squad up for the vast majority of their missions. It's matchmaking - and random matchmaking for 90% of it. You're never guaranteed to find someone. When solo is permitted, especially restricted solo, the responsibility is then on the developers to make squadding up a choice, not a tantamount necessity (to the average player).

It doesn't have to be brainlessly easier mode outside of a group. Little things can have a lot more impact to a limited individual than their absence would for the diverse squad. Going back to the Interception example - the capture speed increase narrows the squad gap to account for concurrent (but slower) captures, but nothing addresses the enemy recapture aspect. They could take a bit longer (but not fourfold as with player capping bonus) to complete a recapture, allowing an individual to cross the map from a far distant point, or to personally deal with two enemy capture attempts without the second simply being a lost cause.

[I think self-damage is a design mistake.]

20 hours ago, FrostDragoon said:

Now that I'm back and have a bit more time to go through this...

The entire opening post are the reasons, and your "fallacies" actually aren't. Something being subjective isn't a fallacy. Allies diving in front of you isn't a fallacy. Glitches in the terrain aren't a fallacy. Burden of proof doesn't apply in the way you're asking it to here. It's a conversation about "Should this be here?" and not "Can we prove X or Y?" But if you'd like to talk about fallacies, how about starting with self-damage as somehow being a "balancing factor" actually being non-sequitur. You can't balance how much damage X weapon does with a binary Y/N for "Should it inflict self-damage?" There isn't a numerical value that can decide that, because it's entirely arbitrary. That's the whole point here. Self-damage is entirely arbitrary.

Given the extremely low usage of these kinds of weapons, it seems that you're the one trying to force your inclination on everyone else. It's clear that the majority of people dislike it.

With regard to your comments about the Tonkor nerfs, simply adjusting the stats would not have stopped people from using it. It was the addition of self-damage that destroyed that weapon. Let's be clear and honest on that point, at least. If we can't even agree on that, I don't know how I can recognize you in this conversation.

As for it being consistent, I don't know if you're intentionally being disingenuous about it, or if it was merely an oversight due to lack of thought, but there's nothing consistent about how self-damage is applied. [Concealed Explosives] and [Thunderbolt] both inflict self harm, but [Combustion Beam] and [Acid Shells] don't. Pox doesn't inflict self damage, but Castanas do. Launchers can cause it with Blast damage, but Blast elemental procs from other weapons don't. This is a laughable proposition.

 

There's plenty more I could go into here, but I think that's enough for you to chew on for now.

It's cute you think you're bringing new and amazing arguments to the table when you aren't. You're not willing to listen to the opposing side as evidenced by your many antagonistic responses in the thread. But let's give you your dues anyway.

Balancing factor - There isn't one number and I never claimed that, so nice strawman. What it is, however, is one archetypal option to balance the (intended) superior AOE output. Shotguns have spread (not every pellet hits every target) and falloff (not full damage unless close). The Ignis has its continuous nature (leaving you exposed as you roll through the DPS), also has falloff, and substandard ammo economy. An explosive you get the full damage to every target in its radius at whatever distance you shoot. The archetype of explosives has a natural balance factor to that in the personal risk.
Does it have to have that? No, but that means it must be reined back in somewhere else, see Cautious Shot sacrificing damage off the top. People like to cite TF2 especially relating to the Tonkor's old and redundant 'gimmick', but that still hurts those players unless they choose the weapon that deals no damage to others either.

The majority - Hello, bandwagon fallacy. Also, vocal / non-vocal rule applies here: the ones who dislike will always be louder than those that are happy or even ambivalent. You're not forced to use these weapons, so it doesn't matter if they're niche use, or only enjoyed by a sub-50% portion of the population. There is no reason to enforce complete mechanical change. Calling for rebalance is fine. I've agreed that's valid. Removing the entire mechanic for personal dislikes is not.

Consistency - If you care to read again, I specified conventional explosives being the baseline of consistency. A rubber chicken fart bomb is not a conventional explosive. A shock payload from Castanas is not a conventional explosive. Abstract Blast damage doesn't necessarily make it conventional explosive either; you failed to cite Quanta cubes, but that's some weird energy shenanigan and not a good old chemical reaction going boom despite the Blast output.

• Angstrum
• Kulstar
• Ogris
• Tonkor (eventually)
• Thunderbolt (explosive arrowheads)
• Concealed Explosives (self explanatory)
• Talons
• Penta

I'm probably missing something, but that's old crowd of basic consistency. The Tonkor was the first obvious conventional explosive to defy the trend, and it was eventually fixed.

Thematic consistency was an argument I had to field recently as well, why are so many of these explosives not 'smart'? Well, most of the weapons come from enemy factions. There's the Grineer, who hack-job everything and literally strap bombs to bad clones and throw them in. They don't care much for safety protocol. Then there's the Corpus, who are corporate money-grubbers, and can you really say you've never heard corporate greed cause a skimping on safety precautions? Infested would even make sense - they're a hive, good of the many, not the individual. The only factions that would likely eschew dumb-firing on a baseline level are the Tenno factions and the Sentients (since they currently 'cannot reproduce' locally).

Now let's bring it back around. There's a gameplay factor to consider since we're not Gritty Realism. Where does this fit in?

Control factor.

Can you kill yourself out of your control? This is why the Cyanex was absolved of self-damage. The homing self-damaging projectiles could be shot to a 'safe' distance and simply double back to kill the player unexpectedly. This was deemed as not reasonable and self-damage removed.
This is also one facet of why the Simulor was instead mechanically changed - the AOE radius of the 'explosion' exceeded the firing range. The player would invariably kill themselves if it was simply granted self-damage, so another solution was found to bring it down from its throne alongside the Tonkor.

Everything else is predictable, direct, or triggered - all things within your control. All things where you make the mistake.

 

Now, I'm sure you'll cite some of the current balance issues like @Aldain did, but that's just bad balance that needs fixing in its own right. The Arca Plasmor is the Tonkor of shotguns - it removes a core drawback and becomes overbearing as a result. Catchmoon is that in your pocket, but even other kitguns are crowding out essentially every other secondary the way Tonkor/SySim did in their heyday. DE is applying riven disposition nerfs to things that win without rivens, it's shortsighted.

I can't say I agree that the Ignis is any 'better' than an explosive, though - as I stated earlier, it does still have its own inherent drawbacks. Continuous fire is legitimately a limitation in some ways - ever tried to kill an Ancient Healer lost in a crowd of other infested? All those AOE damage ticks reflect healing on the Ancient way faster than you can damage it directly. An explosive's singular direct damage strike does the job.

[I think self-damage is a design mistake.]

6 minutes ago, FrostDragoon said:

None of those are reasons why self-damage should be a thing, and I'm about to leave so I don't have time to go through your post point by point right now. I'll address more of it later if you have a good argument to provide to that why. Just as a head start: Almost no other weapons can inflict self-self harm, so the fact that "explosives" do seems entirely arbitrary.

https://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/burden-of-proof You're making the claim self-damage should be removed, so onus is on you. Regardless:

It exists, it's consistent (among conventional explosive ordnance), it has basis in real-life analogues, and it's a common balancing factor to radial AOE weaponry. We also saw the negative, overbearing influence that happened when the drawback was absent in the Tonkor/Simulor meta.
Hard logic aside, some people just have a laugh running the risk of murdering themselves through misuse. The weapons don't have to be meta, they don't even have to be commonplace. There's just no real reason to not have the mechanic at all, for the variety and for those types of players.

I've provided actual problem factors - ally hitbox and linear scaling - along with solutions for them, while having to explain that no, the scenery didn't jump out in front of your rocket, you just took a questionable shot that went awry.
Of course, I do it too when I'm being incautious. I just accept that maybe, say, jumping around inside a Snowglobe isn't the best environment to be using risky explosives, so if I clip just outside the Globe enough that the rocket blows up in my face, that's actually my fault.

I'm not the type just saying 'lol git gud'. If you don't enjoy the risk, the effort invested to internalise their safest use, the occasional mishap putting you flat on your back.. You just don't have to put yourself through it. There are alternatives. Doesn't mean you should force that personal disinclination on everyone else.

[I think self-damage is a design mistake.]

Here I am again to dissect these same old logic-leaping conclusions.

1) This affects every weapon, doubly so for projectiles, doubly-again for (dumb-firing only) explosives. It's a valid issue to raise, but it doesn't mean remove self-damage, it means fix the bad ally collisions so everything is more comfortable. Bows might not be popular, but everyone who does or used to use them can attest that they've had their share of perfectly lined-up shots eaten by an unexpected ally on several occasions.

2) False assessment. It is almost always player error. You have all the information by the time you've mastered the weapon to make judgement calls on when and where you use it. If you try to use it with Infested nearby, and a Charger runs up into your line of fire, that's on you. If you use it in tight quarters or try to shoot narrowly around obstacles, and it clips them to put you in range, that's you that decided to take the shot with a narrow margin of error (on your part, or the hitboxes).
That's not to say the risk-reward ratio is completely perfect as it stands, but it doesn't mean you completely remove the risk, isn't that right, old Tonkor meta? Rebalancing is an acceptable solution, with some sort of diminishing returns to accommodate the fact we need to scale output far more than we scale our own defenses. The real issue is that the damage out is linearly related to self-damage at the moment. I even came up with an equation for an example of this, with variables that could be tweaked according to how the risk needed to scale up.

3) Subjective nonsense. The Tonkor wasn't 'fun', it was overpowered. It had no risks and the best reward. Every other explosive suffered because the Tonkor wasn't simply given self-damage from the start - they all used to auto-headshot, but the Tonkor made DE remove that, and therefore halved other explosive weapons' damage output without compensation.
The Tonkor was statistically nerfed at the same time as its self-damage was rightfully given. That's why it took such a complete nosedive. Just because you don't like self-damage, and many don't want to risk self-damage in their arsenal, doesn't mean the archetype should be removed outright. We have hundreds of weapons - you can just use something else and let those who are more willing to run the risk use the dangerous explosives.

4) Loaded language. You can use explosives without Cautious if you actually put the effort and attention into doing so. You have the option of Cautious if you want to limit the risk of instantaneous suicide when you make a mistake. Especially if the equation is altered to become non-linear - Cautious in its current percentage would be far more reduction than necessary, unless you're running around as an unmodded Loki.

[Change Concentrated Arrow as Exilus?]

9 hours ago, BlindStalker said:

So is Ivara the single wrench or is she the toolbox? I'm obviously bias, and I would say she's the toolbox... just that some times, there are really weird tools inside her toolbox that function in a different way that one would conventionally expect.

I don't want her to be associated as an AFK frame either, that will be even worst (it's people's actions which unfortunately give that impression of her).

--

Actually, I was referring to how others interpret Ivara when they first build for her. Like what ShortCat basically said earlier in this thread: " I said people usually discard high PS and Artemis in favor of cheaper invisibility. At least I hardly see an Ivara using her exsalted bow."  I'm not saying I think its the dump stat on Ivara, I'm saying that I think others thing strength is the dump stat on her. To be fair, I also have the build that dump stats strength, but that build has real purposes for Ivara, to me, since I have sitautions where I need it. (I actually usually don't like to dump stat on Ivara at all, but I have a few select builds that make sacrifices)

She's the AFK frame in the sense that standing AFK is the sole thing Prowl does better than other stealth frames. Any stealth frame can indefinite-stealth with an appropriate build from only Energy Siphon - including Ivara through cloak arrows but not prowl because channelling removes regen - but only Ivara's involves her being crippled or restricted to an area. So, she can stand in an area without upkeep for much longer while Prowling. Octavia even maintains the stealth with no recasting window while still having the energy regen to do it forever and being fully mobile.

--

I have three Ivara loadouts, but i'd consider the Strength dump my 'main' one:

1) Range (near-max) / Duration (high) / Efficiency (positive) / Strength (dump) - Making the most out of the control and utility of Quiver, while still being very Prowl-friendly when needed (although looting is a pain due to sub-neutral strength). Still has defensive mods so I can take glancing hits without having to fat-roll everywhere in prowl. Can't really bow worth a damn. Can still Navigate those highly effective Quiver arrows though the damage bonus is negligible.

2) Duration (near-max) / Range (high) / Efficiency (neutral) / Strength (neutral) + Primed Flow - Stealy build made of pure paper. Never not prowl, loots properly and as reliably as possible. Artemis Bow viable but not fantastic due to Duration over Efficiency and only baseline Strength. Probably the most 'afk' of the three, but dies to a stiff breeze. Also used when I want to Bow things but can't afford to be exposed ever. Navigator use is limited because duration kills the scaling, but Quiver's still fairly okay despite the weaker range than build 1.

3) Strength (near-max) / Efficiency (as much as possible after Blind Rage) / Range (coincidentally neutral) / Duration (absolute minimum) - This loadout exists to maximise Artemis Bow and/or Navigator. Playing the Duration antisynergy for the latter means it's a dangerous game since it's not viable to sit in either stealth without bleeding out energy. Used to hunt eidolons with A-Bow.

9 hours ago, BlindStalker said:

Ah sorry, I do recall as well you doing bounties as well with Ivara. Amesha is great too I agree for the excavator bounties on orb vallis. I know we can't cloak the drone, but at least we can cloak the coil drive, I feel like we were purposely limited to being able to cloak only one teammate object like that over all the bounties.

Actually, I think the Amesha in open-worlds is a perfect analogue to Ivara's current state of being.

Amesha at its core is a godly powerful archwing with basically infinite energy, the ability to perfect-defend any objective unless it dies in one melee strike (absorbing gunfire to generate constant health restoration), and can easily restore health to the players (which is carried back to the Frame when you jump out)...

But you don't see everyone using it in the open worlds all the time. Why? Because those neverending disarming rockets make it an inconvenient pain in the arse to do so.

Just like Ivara. You can use the Amesha to some amazingly functional outcomes, but you have to suffer the inconveniences of that rocket spam. Most people don't bother. They'd rather just use the Itzal to get around quicker and forget the rest of the wings and their kits entirely instead of getting frustrated by being knocked out of it every ten seconds.

7 hours ago, taiiat said:

frankly Elemental Sandstorm is the best Augment that Inaros has. not that it's great, but because the other two are just pointless. like, honestly what is Negation Swarm going to do that's ACTUALLY useful. bypass Magnetic? oh boy i can barely even keep my pants on.
Handspring already basically deletes Enemy CC from the game and it fits into Exilus while Negation Swarm doesn't. and there aren't any Status Effects that impact Inaros in any meaningful way. Negation Swarm was dead on arrival.

I think the general playerbase would disagree with you on that one. I don't use it myself because I'd rather Inaros be my set-and-forget tank frame, but I'm quite sure a large portion of Inaros players use Negation Swarm in their build - and very few use the others.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't it protect against all status effects, not just knockdowns like your Handspring? I can imagine not being Slashed through the armour, annoyed with Cold slowdowns, Magnetised when you need to pocket-sand your health back, Irradiated and kill/be killed by your allies, all as well as not being knocked over, would actually be quite convenient so long as you keep an eye on the stack to recharge yourself.

[Change Concentrated Arrow as Exilus?]

50 minutes ago, DatDarkOne said:

Here's the interesting thing about Navigator and punchthru.  If the weapon has the punchthru mod or innate punchthru, Navigator pretty much makes that punchthru infinite without the augment.  Just try it with a Bow and you'll be surprised at just how many enemies you can kill with just one arrow without the augment.  

As for the shooting noisy weapons and decloaking, adding a Hush mod doesn't really hurt the overall damage of the weapon when you factor in the Prowl Bonus.  Then there is also Cloak Arrow which doesn't decloak with noisy weapons.  So, she can afford it if you actually need to use a noisy weapon.  It just requires applying just a tad bit of logic and Common Sense.

Ivara is a tactical frame.  Probably the most tactical frame in the game.  This means that she isn't quite as simple to use in some things.  This is an aspect of her that I like, while some may view that as punishing.  

One other benefit that Infiltrate gives just happens to be when in the Void maps with the orb lasers and other things.  Think of the times on Void defense mission when someone activates the turrets.  That issue isn't a problem with Infiltrate.  Hehe  😀 Don't get me wrong as I completely understand the augment is situational, but it just fits my playstyle way more than any of the other augments.  

 

My loadout used to be Ivara-Dread-Brakk-Sheev, I've spent more than my fair share of time navigating with bows. Depends plenty on the unit, your angle of attack and where you connect, etc. You can still run out of punch-through quickly enough (pre-augment change, at least). Suggesting indefinite punch-through is just a means to an end, and it's not like the Zenith doesn't exist. Even if it's 3m terrain but infinite enemy punch-through (see: Ignis mechanic) that'd work handy and avoid people Navigating off into places their camera probably shouldn't go.

It seems I wasn't clear enough on what I meant regarding the decloak from noisy weapons - I meant 'cannot afford' in the sense of being stealth-reliant for survival. She can't afford to be seen and shot as a result of that interaction - which no other stealth suffers as badly - especially when you account for the fact she still takes that extra energy drain from every damage tick while Prowl is active, even if she's temporarily visible. It adds up no matter how efficient your build, as I'm sure you've experienced from misadventures with Venom Eximi and Arc Traps occasionally.

I Hush my guns myself, but it shouldn't be necessary for Ivara alone over other stealth-centric frames. The headshot bonus inside Prowl is a nice-to-have, but we're discussing Concentrated Arrow because heads aren't 100% reliable to hit in every case, right?