DrBorris
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Posts posted by DrBorris
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The Goal: Make a platform for creating your own Focus loadout that still encourages players to specialize their Operators.
Breaking away from the past walls of text, this part of the rework relies heavily on visual aids.
The Foundation
The above replaces the current UI that comes up under the "Focus" part of Operator customization.
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The Left side panel is basically just a condensed version of our current Focus trees. You unlock and upgrade Focus Ways in much the same way we do now. The major change is that this is not what determines the Focus Ways you have equipped.
- Cycle between the Focus schools by selecting the icon on the top.
- The Focus school open on the left side has no impact on your Operator.
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The larger right side side area is where you equip the Focus Ways you unlocked on the left.
- Circular slots can have any Focus Way from any Focus school equipped, including Waybounds.
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Hexagonal slots can only have Waybounds equipped.
- Unlike the circular slots these slots must be purchased with an Eidolon Shard in a similar way to how Waybounds are unlocked now.
- Only Focus Ways/Waybounds equipped somewhere in the right panel have an effect on your Operator.
- Upgrading your Way capacity is basically the same as it is now. Equipping Ways on the right tree consume from your pool and your pool can be upgraded with Focus points.
All Focus Ways now scale off of a single “strength” stat. Duration, damage, debuff power, and etcetera. At least one stat of every Way/Waybound will increase if the strength of that Way is increased.
Equipping a Way in a slot closer to the center will increase the Strength of that Way. The centermost circle gives 50% more strength, the next outer ring of slots (three circular and three hexagonal) get a 25% increase to strength, and all of the outermost slots have no base increase to strength.
The Twist
If Ways from the same school are connected by a line the strength of all connected Ways have their strength increased by 5% per connected Way.
Imagine every slot is filled with a Way from one of the five Focus trees. Different colors represent a group of Ways of a certain school. For example the slots outlined in orange are all Madurai, the slots outlined in yellow are all Unairu, etcetera.
- The Ways in the green group have their Strength increased by an additional 25%.
- The Ways in the yellow group have their strength increased by an additional 15%.
- The Ways in the blue group have their strength increased by an additional 20%.
- The Ways in the orange group have their strength increased by an additional 40%.
As a note, both the yellow and blue groups could be the same Focus school. However because they are not connected they are not buffing each other's strength. The bonus strength is based on connections, not the total amount of Ways equipped.
The connection strength bonus is additive with the strength bonus for being closer to the center. In the example above the center slot would have a total strength bonus of 90%.
Unlock Progression
To ease new players into Focus customization, have the full tree unlock over time with the completion of quests.
Reworking Ways
It is fair to assume that most if not all Ways would need an adjustment. In addition, the increased amount of possible active Ways would want there to be more Ways added to the schools...
I'm not going to go there. It is the big idea of this concept that I want to be the main takeaway, getting dirty in the specifics of reworking what we have and adding new abilities will just bog down the post. Furthermore, if DE does by some miracle actually do something similar to this suggestion then they probably wouldn't care much for my specific suggestions and do their own thing. While I love theory crafting and coming up with very detailed reworks, in this case I want to show a bit of restraint and leave it up to the imagination.
Let's all just suspend our disbelief for a second and assume that all of the trees are full of reworked/new Focus Ways that are well implemented to work with this proposal. The big picture is what matters, let's focus on that.
As it stands Focus is a horrible system for player expression. All players are sectioned off into one of five groups and within each group only vertical progression exists. Your Operator is not your Operator, it is just one of the five options available. Giving the option to mix and match Ways from different schools gives the opportunity to have your Operator be custom to the way you want to play.
The connection system makes it so creating your Focus build isn’t just picking the best Ways available, it encourages focusing (heh) your build into a specialization while still allowing for ultimate combination. It adds build depth and a new way to build-craft in a way that I believe would be intuitive to use. Just making more Focus Ways able to be used cross-tree doesn’t make the Focus system more interesting, it just band-aids imbalances within the Focus schools.
For the sake of keeping the suggestions focused I have split up this rework into three parts. Each part can stand on its own although they come together to be greater than the sum of their parts.
Part 1: Focus Point Acquisition: A Minimum Wage
- Add a set of daily challenges that reward around 130,000 Focus for relatively simple tasks, most of which you will naturally complete just by playing normally. Also improve the experience of farming Focus with Lenses.
- https://forums.warframe.com/topic/1192190-operator-30-part-1-focus-point-acquisition-a-minimum-wage/
Part 2: Operator Movement/Abilities: A More Versatile Foundation
- Bring up Operator movement to the standard of fluidity Warframes have as well as expand/standardize base Operator abilities for integration with individual Focus Ways.
- https://forums.warframe.com/topic/1192391-operator-30-part-2-operator-movementabilities-a-more-versatile-foundation/
Part 3: Focusing on Customization
- Rather than select one Focus tree, mix and match different Focus Ways into a personalized build while retaining the concept of having one school be your “focus”.
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The Left side panel is basically just a condensed version of our current Focus trees. You unlock and upgrade Focus Ways in much the same way we do now. The major change is that this is not what determines the Focus Ways you have equipped.
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9 hours ago, Steel_Rook said:
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I think that Operators should be balanced like their entire kit was a single ability. You push 5, in one chain of actions do a thing, then return back to your Warframe as if you had hit any other ability. Operators, in my opinion, are at their peak when they are a short boost of extreme power.
If you've ever played Transistor it is kind of like Turn(). Turn() is the core combat of the game, or rather it is one form of the combat of the game. How it works is when you use the Turn() ability time stops and then you select a bunch of attacks/movement. Each ability you use during Turn() takes up a portion of an energy bar. When you have your "turn" ready to go you hit play and the character quickly powers through the abilities you selected.
SpoilerFor reference, 1:20 in the video.
While this is obviously not a one to one representation of Operators, I like to imagine using your Operator feeling a lot like using Turn(). Operator gameplay is quick and methodical, a large burst of power. Peak Operator gameplay should be ability after ability after ability until you run dry, no down time for your Operator to run around. Basically requiring you to always be consuming energy to stay alive is what is forcing you to hurry up, you can smell the roses when you are in your Warframe. If you aren't using your Operator's utility you shouldn't be using your Operator.
The energy limitations are a core part of this concept. You only have so much juice to work with so you have to be tactical what you do. When you hit 5 you have to choose what parts of the Operator's utility you want to focus on. The limitations is what potentially makes using your Operator interesting, using your Operator is fundamentally different from using your Warframe. Operators exist in burst while the Warframe is your sustain.
I know this doesn't directly address the points you made but I think if you understand how I am viewing Operator use (a short and methodical power fantasy) you will better understand what my intentions are for the rework above.
Also play Transistor if you haven't, it's amazing.-
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The Goal: To give a fully featured and consistent move set for Operators that makes using your Operator as a utility more enjoyable. Also aim to enhance the foundation ability set for better Operator/Warframe synergy and Focus Way customization.
Ability/Move-set Changes
As it stands Operators have three ability mechanics; Void Dash, Void Cloak, and Void Blast. While these three abilities do have some natural synergies between them, for the most part they don’t have much interaction with each other.
A large issue I find with Operator gameplay now is that they feel so clunky to use. They have some powerful aspects but when compared to the combat of Warframes it feels jittery.
So, the first suggestion is giving Operators some tools Warframes got with Parkour 2.0, Aim Glide and Wall Latch. Of course these things would have a different flair, but the gameplay should be similar. We already basically use an infinite wall latch during the prologues, so it only makes sense to get that tool. Operators should retain elements of the Warframe power fantasy, you should not feel as though you are nerfing yourself when you use the Operator. This is not saying that Operators should actually be as powerful as Warframes, but that their gameplay should retain the feel and fluidity of the rest of the game.
The second part of this suggestion is to add ability “combos” between each of the tools Operators have.
The Current Core Ability Set
- Void Dash
- Void Cloak
- Void Blast
The Core Ability Set Additions:
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Void Glide (Aim glide)
- Consumes energy per second while gliding.
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Void Latch (Wall latch)
- Infinite duration. Does not consume energy. Allows energy to start regenerating.
Now let’s combine them…
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Void Blast while Void Dash:
- Increase Void Blast range by 50%.
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Void Blast while Void Latch:
- Just let it happen.
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Void Cloak while Void Latch:
- Just let it happen.
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Void Cloak while Void Glide:
- Let it happen. No movement speed penalty to the Void Glide, increased energy drain.
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Void Blast while Void Cloak while Void Glide:
- Ground slam for Operators. If you Void Punch while in Void Mode while Void Gliding you will quickly descend. Once you hit the ground you Void Blast with 100% more range.
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Void Dash while Void Latch:
- 50% more Void Dash range.
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Void Glide while Void Dash:
- Retain some momentum into the Void Glide.
The five core abilities are the things that can be augmented by a Focus Way. Due to the ability combinations all working as extensions of the core abilities, any augment made to the core abilities would also augment the ability combinations. If a Focus Way adds an effect to Void Blast it will automatically work with doubled range from a Void Dash into a Void Blast.
The reason for emphasis on ability combinations is to double down on having quick, spammy usage of Operators be as fluid as possible. There are currently noticeable pauses in gameplay momentum whenever you use Operator abilities in sequence. Enhancing the gameplay of chaining multiple Operator abilities together will hopefully encourage using Operators as an active utility ability for Warframes. You pop into Operator, burn through your energy in a big show of fluid ability spam, then clean up the mess with your Warframe. All of the utility Operators offer is through their abilities, thus using their abilities should feel good.
While Operators being fun to use is nice and all, there need to be more reasons for us to use their abilities.
Void Wisp: A New Foundation for Operator/Warframe Synergy
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Void Wisp
- Dealing damage with any Operator ability or inflicting a Void Status proc creates a wisp of Void energy that can be picked up by your Operator or Warframe.
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Wisps are created for the entire party. Each Wisp can be picked up by every player individually (works like an energy orb).
- The buffs you get from a Void Wisp are based on your equipped Focus Ways, not the Focus Ways of the Operator that created the Wisp.
- Void Wisps grant 1 energy per second for 25 seconds. Picking up multiple wisps stacks the energy buff (up to 4x) and refreshes the duration.
While the base effects of Void Wisps do serve the purpose of alleviating some energy issues between schools, the largest power of Void Wisps is the opportunity for different Focus Ways to add new buffs to Void Wisps. For example, Madurai may give bonus fire damage to picking up a wisp. Naramon Wisps could extend the combo counter. A Zenurik Way could increase the effectiveness of the energy per second. Maybe some Ways could lean into Operator buffs, or have a Way give two different buffs for Operator/Warframe that synergize with each other.
This is a system that could turn the current Focus passives into an active system that encourages the utility playstyle of Operators. With the changes to the Operator abilities above the hope is using your Operator to create these Void Wisps won't feel like a chore. The target gameplay loop is to use your Operators to create temporary powerful buffs for Warframe.
I can not stress enough how important the Void Wisp part of this rework is. The whole point of Operators is to act as utility for the Warframe, Void Wisps are a limitless foundation for how Operators could go about interacting with Warframes.
For the sake of keeping the suggestions focused I have split up this rework into three parts. Each part can stand on its own although they come together to be greater than the sum of their parts.
Part 1: Focus Point Acquisition: A Minimum Wage
- Add a set of daily challenges that reward around 130,000 Focus for relatively simple tasks, most of which you will naturally complete just by playing normally. Also improve the experience of farming Focus with Lenses.
- https://forums.warframe.com/topic/1192190-operator-30-part-1-focus-point-acquisition-a-minimum-wage/
Part 2: Operator Movement/Abilities: A More Versatile Foundation
- Bring up Operator movement to the standard of fluidity Warframes have as well as expand/standardize base Operator abilities for integration with individual Focus Ways.
Part 3: Focusing on Customization
- Rather than select one Focus tree, mix and match different Focus Ways into a personalized build while retaining the concept of having one school be your “focus”.
- https://forums.warframe.com/topic/1192865-operator-30-part-3-focusing-on-customization/
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34 minutes ago, Zectico said:
I think operator movement is fine as is. Currently, Warframes are more maneuverable but Operators are actually faster due to Void Dash, made even stronger by Void Sprint. Since Void Dash defies gravity, Operators also have a much higher vertical reach than any Warframe parkour maneuvers too. The slide ability for operators really helps as well.
As for daily missions, I'm not really sure about how viable they would be against Eidolon hunts. Each full Eidolon hunt (with 3x captures) gives about 120,000 affinity and is not capped by the daily affinity limit. Eidolon hunts overall aren't too difficult to complete one of, even with standard equipment; a lot of the stigma around hunts is purely because of elitist gate keeping. Generally squads can get 2-3 full hunts every night, or up to 300,000 affinity in an hour.
There will be more about Operator movement in part 2, but the early TL;DR is that the intent is to make Operators feel more fluid. As someone addicted to Void Dash I am very aware of how powerful they are as movement tools, but even then it feels very jarring to lose out on some of the core movement tools Warframes have. Basically Operator movement should "feel" better, not necessarily "be" better.
The daily missions aren't aimed at people who hunt Eidolons. The daily missions are supposed to be extremely accessible to everyone. We may know how to make an Eidolon hunt easy but the average player will not even touch those things, especially newer players. On that note, new players need a way to get Focus. Most people are still very new when they complete TSD, they are far away from being able to reliably do either of the Focus farms (ESO and Eidolons). Furthermore, you have to go out of your way to do Eidolons. Especially when initially progressing through the game, or when you are just generally trying to grind for something, taking time to run Eidolons is a big ask.
The daily challenges are supposed to be easy things that anyone can do every day without much additional time investment. Eidolons still exist for those that want to further min/max, but as the title suggests the purpose of the daily challenges isn't for those that are investing a lot of time into the game, the daily challenges are supposed to be a baseline amount of Focus that most people will get every day as long as they play a bit.
17 minutes ago, Loza03 said:I've been working on some ideas of this of my own - specifically, expanding intrinsics into Operators as well. Idea being that Focus is currently pulling double duty as both a form of 'endgame' progression for Warframe as a whole, whilst also being the 'core' progression of Operators.
I feel like intrinsics fit as they're meant to be representative of getting more skilled in various fields of using the Railjack, and that fits with the theming of the Operator as a new power they have to hone on their own. That also takes the heat off of Focus, and offers an avenue for making more abilities for the Operator without sticking it into that system. It'd also allow for expansion of focus at the same time - keeping it as a kind of 'modifier'. For example, Intrinsics grant Operators a new power - say, an alternative to void blast that's an over-time push, rather than a single explosion - and then focus modifies it into a flamethrower attack for Madurai or a Medic/Mercy style healing beam for Vazarin.
I've got other ideas as well, if you're happy to hear them.
I don't know if those ideas will work very well with what I have in the pipeline (I know it sounds crazy, but I have been slowly cracking at this full rework for two years now) but I would love to see your feedback when I get there. I'm always a big fan of new concepts coming from mashing two ideas together so I would love to get your input when part 3 gets posted.
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The Goal: Add a low time investment "minimum wage" of Focus that casual players can easily get every day. Also improve the experience of farming Focus with Lenses for those that want to go beyond the minimum wage.
Daily Challenges: A simple way to get a ‘minimum wage’
Focus daily challenges are generally not meant to be another task on our already immense to-do list, most of the Focus daily challenges should be things that you do passively through just playing the game. More challenges unlock as you progress through the big trilogy of story quests.
Focus acquired from daily challenges does not contribute towards your daily Focus cap.
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Post TSD
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Daily Kill Challenges
- Kill 50 Enemies: 1,000 Focus
- Kill 100 Enemies: 3,000 Focus
- Kill 500 Enemies: 6,000 Focus
- Kill 1000 Enemies: 10,000 Focus
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Daily Kill Challenges
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Post TWW
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Level 5 ‘Operator Only’ mission: 20,000 Focus
- Double Affinity-to-Focus conversion during mission
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Level 30 ‘Operator Only’ mission: 50,000 Focus
- Triple Affinity-to-Focus conversion during mission
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Level 5 ‘Operator Only’ mission: 20,000 Focus
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Post Sacrifice
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Daily Operator/Operator-Assisted Kill Challenges
- Enemies who die after being hit by an Operator or any Operator ability (or of course straight-out killed by Operator)
- Kill 10 Enemies: 2,000 Focus
- Kill 20 Enemies: 6,000 Focus
- Kill 50 Enemies: 12,000 Focus
- Kill 100 Enemies: 20,000 Focus
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Daily Operator/Operator-Assisted Kill Challenges
This is a total of 130,000 Focus from daily challenges alone. The intent is that besides the daily ‘Operator Only’ missions that everything could be easily completed by just playing the game. Final values would probably need adjusting, however these daily challenges should be extremely generous as to get players invested into the Focus system.
Lens Rework: Streamlining directing Focus into schools
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Focus lenses are no longer school-specific, they all feed into a large central Focus pool.
- Any Focus point earned could be spent on any Focus Way.
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Lens progression does not exist in the Foundry, it exists on the weapon/Warframe.
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The base Focus lenses is equipped on any piece of equipment as it is now.
- Increase the base Lens conversion ratio to 2% (from 1.25%)
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The higher tiers of Focus lenses (Greater, Eidolon, Lua) are now upgrade modules that can be attached to a Lens after the Lenx is attached to an item. Only one of each type of upgrade can be equipped to any Lens. There are no prerequisites for instilling an upgrade, for example if you wish you could only equip a Lua Upgrade.
- Greater Upgrade: +50% Focus from all Affinity sources
- Eidolon Upgrade: +200% Focus from Sentients
- Lua Upgrade: +500% Focus from Operator-assisted kills
- (New) Convergence Upgrade: Double the Convergence multiplier.
- Lens Upgrades are installed by clicking on the Focus Lens in the Arsenal UI. Having upgrades equipped is represented by pips on the Lens that currently just denote a Lens’s rank.
- Upgrades can be safely removed from a Lens by spending 5 Somatic Fibers.
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The base Focus lenses is equipped on any piece of equipment as it is now.
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Lenses equipped into Amps have different mechanics.
- Operators have a base 5% Affinity-to-Focus conversion without the need for a Focus Lens or Amp.
- Equipping a Lens on an Amp adds 2% to the conversion ratio.
- Lens Upgrades can be equipped on Amp Lenses, upgrades cannot be equipped without a Lens. Lens Upgrades affect the total 7% Affinity-to-Focus conversion, not just the 2% from the Lens.
- Only kills made by your Operator go towards your Operator's Focus conversion. Ally assists and objective affinity while in Operator do not go towards your Operator’s focus conversion, they instead are applied as though you were still in your Warframe. This is to prevent Operator affinity leaching from being the best way to farm Focus.
The hope is that by making Focus lenses universal the FOMO of equipping lenses to a wide variety of equipment would be lessened. Combined with the current high availability of base Focus lenses people will probably be far more likely to equip a Focus lens and thus will spend more time interacting with the Focus system. The Lens Upgrades would then be where you would have the opportunity to increase your investment into individual pieces of equipment.
For the sake of keeping the suggestions focused I have split up this rework into three parts. Each part can stand on its own although they come together to be greater than the sum of their parts.
Part 1: Focus Point Acquisition: A Minimum Wage
- Add a set of daily challenges that reward around 130,000 Focus for relatively simple tasks, most of which you will naturally complete just by playing normally. Also improve the experience of farming Focus with Lenses.
Part 2: Operator Movement/Abilities: A More Versatile Foundation
- Bring up Operator movement to the standard of fluidity Warframes have as well as expand/standardize base Operator abilities for integration with individual Focus Ways.
- https://forums.warframe.com/topic/1192391-operator-30-part-2-operator-movementabilities-a-more-versatile-foundation/
Part 3: Focusing on Customization
- Rather than select one Focus tree, mix and match different Focus Ways into a personalized build while retaining the concept of having one school be your “focus”.
- https://forums.warframe.com/topic/1192865-operator-30-part-3-focusing-on-customization/
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Post TSD
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38 minutes ago, Eyn_Sof said:
If i recall the stream correctly, they stated that on endless missions you can choose to up the difficulty which to me sounded like they want to make multiple difficulties in which case adding levels is better(also setting base levels across all missions is either a big undertaking or all missions will have same level)
But... what does this mean to what I suggested? Endless missions scale based on starting level, all I am suggesting is to have the starting level of hard mode be the same for all hard mode missions. Lich missions already kind of do this in that a level 3 Lich mission is the same level no matter where it is located.
13 minutes ago, (NSW)C4ffy said:I prefer the way they presented it. I wouldn't want missions from Earth to be the same difficulty as Sedna. Why would you want them all to be the same?
Because then were right back to square one where the low level planets are... well... the low(er) level planets. It makes for an uneven playing field when selecting missions, like for if for example you get rewards for completing hard mode missions Earth will be the easiest way to farm those rewards. If DE makes it so rewards still scale with different locations then we are right back to the position where some planets will be arbitrarily worse then others. And if DE says screw it and has no recurring rewards then we have the obvious problem of "why am I doing this?" in addition to level differences having literally exist for no reason.
Hard mode seems to be intended to diversify the locations we see, if it keeps the level differences then it fails to actually do that.
Also, what do you think it adds to have there be level differences for hard mode? How does it make the game more interesting that Sedna would be a harder hard mode than Earth?
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This is definitely a minor nitpick but I think that having hard mode only add to the base levels of missions sets a bad precedent for what hard mode is. Rather than have hard mode be a harder version of a mission it should just be a hard (no "er") version of a mission. An Earth hard mode mission should not be any easier than a Sedna hard mode mission, Hard mode should be a consistent experience across the entire star chart.
So, instead of having Hard mode add 50 levels (as an example, numbers not final of course) to the base level of a mission, Hard mode should instead set the base levels of all hard mode missions to 50 (or 60, or 80, or whatever DE sees fit). Again it is a pretty minor nitpick, but I think it would be better if hard mode was a consistent experience across the star chart instead of it being varying levels of harder.
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Here's a take, Railjack should NEVER be a source of difficulty, Railjack should only be a vehicle (literally) to bring you to difficulty. The main source of difficulty in gameplay should be the core gameplay (ya know, using Warframes), not a space ship.
So on that note, things like higher level/more difficult enemies that board the Railjack. Or more difficult objectives for away teams to do. Maybe some forced cooperation between the crew of the Railjack with away teams, those things are fine. Those things being difficult should be by twisting the core combat of the game, not replacing it with something else. Where the difficulty should not be is in the Railjack combat itself as if the Railjack combat is difficult then it is taking your attention away from the main draw of the game.
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Or... crazy idea... buff the base weapon so it isn't dependent on a broken gimmick. If you are going to ask for something to change doesn't it make more sense to get the underlying issue fixed?
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34 minutes ago, Oreades said:
Was there? really?
Cause seems to me like the same reasons your using to justify their existence is still present in the form equipping mods sry I mean avionics that simply aren't fully upgraded with no need to pollute the drop tables with needless fluff.
What are you talking about? Avionics capacity was the bottleneck for any build. It was impossible to fit every highest tier Avionic in a build thus you had to make trade-offs for some of the buffs you wanted on your Railjack. You want both defensive and offensive Avionics, but you can't have both maxed. Which one do you value more? It isn't an all or nothing system like mods. Modding has no such trade-offs, you forma your gun until it fits all the mods you want. The trade-off of limited mod slots is in both Mods and Avionics but limited capacity is a far stricter limitation in Avionics. Then having lower cost Avionics not be proportionally powerful to the cost/power of the high cost Avionics meant that putting together a build was like piecing together a puzzle. Creativity and build diversity come from restriction.
I'm not saying Avionics are perfect, the drop table dilution was a major problem. But you don't have to remove house variants to fix drop table dilution, there are other ways to fix that. Some Avionics power per capacity were also poorly balanced to not be very useful which hurts the potential of off-meta builds, again you can fix that without having to delete the whole system. The answer isn't always to just delete what's there and recall to a safe place.
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12 minutes ago, (PS4)IndianChiefJeff said:
Build diversity is a fleeting concept in Warframe. While I do see the value in different combinations & variants of avionics, the meta would've eventually crept into play & demolish build diversity for a more streamlined build. If this is the route they're going for, they'll have to compensate by increasing the avionics cap, or else the removal of avionic variants will be completely pointless. I can't say for sure what the best solution is, given my very distant nature towards Railjack.
Not everything is about the meta... Something will always be best, build diversity comes when the other options are close enough that they are viable.
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27 minutes ago, Oreades said:
I'm just glad they're shifting away from pouting the drop tables with interior versions of a single mod. Instead of offering interesting variation through alternative mods with compelling reasons to use them
Limited Avionics capacity made it so there was a compelling reason to use them. It had the potential to give far more build diversity than what we could ever get from traditional mods.
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10 hours ago, DariusMcSwag said:
I write my posts with detail to flesh out the idea. Ive run into the issue before where I write too little, people yell for a more detailed example, same goes for the opposite. I write too much, I should "get to the point". I try to find a balance between the two, but Im not always successful.
I've been trying to figure out this balance for about four years now.
So far I got nothin', if you figure it out please let me know.
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I think the reason DE did not give test cluster access to everyone in the DC is the same reason that they only gave access to partners who were active in the last month. I think it is safe to assume that quite a large portion of the DC is inactive, or at the very least they don't keep track of what Warframe is doing these days. DE wants people who are active in the game and keeping track of news to join the test cluster as those people are probably the most likely to give accurate feedback. Especially given that the slots in the test cluster are so limited, it would have been a shame if a large portion of those slots were taken up by people who forgot about Warframe three years ago. Maybe I am only saying that because I am still a wee bit salty that after six years of being an active forum warrior I never got an invite to the DC.
That said, I think it would have been fair to give all DC members who replied to the lottery thread a guaranteed slot.
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>"Hey DE, stop releasing content then forgetting about it one week later to move on to the new shiny."
>"Hey DE, can you give up on Railjack and move on to a new shiny?"
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Alternate title: Railjack Combat Movement Should Be Slower Emphasis on the "combat" part
Movement is currently only fun for the pilot. Being a gunner with a pilot darting around the map is not satisfying. Sure, pilot may be having fun flying their spaceship, but the Railjack is supposed to be a multi-crew gunship not a dogfighter. This is partially due to the “best” way to pilot being to go fast. Engine progression demands you go faster. Dodging projectiles demands you go faster. Getting out of a swarm demands you go faster. And I really think this “go faster” should be discussed more, Railjack needs to be a good experience for everyone. I cannot imagine the gunner experience ever being good if the optimal way to play is to have the Railjack zipping so fast it is impossible to track targets.
This “go faster” doesn’t only impact gunners, it also impacts engineers. The optimal way to pilot your Railjack is to not ever get hit. This means if you have a good pilot your engineer is only playing a clicker game in the forge. Roles should enhance each other, not remove reasons for their existence. A good gunner should need a good pilot. A good pilot should need good gunners. A good engineer should need a good pilot, etcetera.
This style of combat also has some pretty major negative impacts on how future content can be developed. Any type of objective that would ask the Railjack to sit still or be in close range with a threat goes against what the current systems encourage. If you get close to anything that deals damage you will have a major hull breach in seconds, same case if you have to sit still. For Railjack to remain “fun” for future content DE has to design everything around the submarine/bomber style of gameplay which is extremely restrictive. The Railjack should be more like Inaros than Banshee.
In the spoiler below is my armchair-developer take on trying to address what I discussed above. I am hiding it in the spoiler because I really don’t want it to become the point of this post, DE generally doesn’t take direct suggestions from the community, however they do take feedback. And that is what I hope this thread gets across, my feedback that the current state of Railjack has a fundamental flaw in its combat with the movement speed. How DE goes about fixing it I don’t much care.
SpoilerThe intent here is to create a more versatile foundation for further Railjack content.
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Railjack doesn’t ‘sink’ due to being shot, but rather taking on water.
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Getting hit shouldn’t be the end of the world, not repairing should.
- Multiply Railjack base health by 10
- Minor hull breaches deal damage over time.
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This will be the primary way your Railjack takes damage
- Major Hull breaches only happen due to enemy sabotage (enemies board, plant a bomb, and it goes off. Yes, this is a mechanic that currently exists.) or due to some extreme source of enemy damage (ship-killer base canon). Major hull breaches give the “out of air” effect survivals have to all occupants on ship and have 5x the damage over time of minor hull breaches. Bonus points if major Hull breaches look like this…
- Instead of having a damage over time element for the Railjack, fires create a large damage over time field for Warframes abord the Railjack.
- When your Railjack reaches zero health, it will still gain temporary invulnerability. To survive all hull breaches must be repaired, if not mission fail. When in this stage Railjack loses all functionality besides movement and forges.
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Getting hit shouldn’t be the end of the world, not repairing should.
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Movement is only fun for the pilot, let’s change that.
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Bring back the shield/damage/engines tactical from the Tennocon demo, albeit with some changes.
- Three options, not continuous. Not “half power to weapons and engines”, all or nothing.
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“Defense,” “Offence,” and “Movement” modes
- Defense: Turn on an infinite duration cloak. All movement and weapons are disabled.
- Offense: 300% more damage to side turrets, 100% faster Ordinance Reload, movement speed reduced to 15%.
- Movement: Disable Artillery.
- Base movement speed and damage would need to be adjusted, obviously.
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Bring back the shield/damage/engines tactical from the Tennocon demo, albeit with some changes.
Make. A. Solo/Duo. Railjack. One of my earliest concerns was that if the Railjack was able to be operated solo, it would be a sub-par experience co-op. The current state of Railjack met that pessimistic prediction perfectly. Rather than make a ship where everyone was dependent on each other it is a system where everyone is their own hero. Trying to make a single piece of content (or a single ship in this case) to please everyone is a futile endeavor, if you try to please everyone you please no one. Having a dogfighting ship in space is great on its own, as I brought up multiple times it is fun being the pilot, but it is not something that meshes with the co-op focus of the Railjack.
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Railjack doesn’t ‘sink’ due to being shot, but rather taking on water.
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27 minutes ago, Circle_of_Psi said:
even if there is proof right in their faces.
What proof? What content has DE released that is more grindy and/or more anti-consumer than older content.
- Frost Prime release: Sub 1% drop chances. (Forma were also like this on release)
- Gradvius Dilemma: Do this one mission 100 times to get the reward.
- Archwing: Super low drop rates for new Archwing parts, as well as weapons, and oh boy a whole new set of mods with low drop chances (sound familiar?).
- UI 2.0: Still in my experience the buggiest update of all, so much so that the entire game was unplayable for awhile after it initially released.
- Law of Retribution Rewards: 1%-ish drop chances on a mission you can only do once a day.
- And that is just stuff I can remember off the top of my head...
DE has a long reputation of massive grinds and broken updates, attributing current grind and broken update issues to them being purchased by a Chinese company is pointless fear mongering. Take off your rose tinted glasses, the problem isn't that DE has changed, the problem is that DE hasn't changed.
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3 minutes ago, kapn655321 said:
The degree to which they are, is.
Here's how:
When a weapon is vastly more overwhelming that it's peers, it will demand a challenging new enemy to counter it, else the game becomes boring and uninteresting to players. Once you've done everything you need to do and reach God-status, there's nothing to work towards. Players request new, more challenging enemies to offset this. Those new, more challenging enemies, Cannot be engaged with anything but that most powerful weapon.
An OP gun = a future nerf to everything that isn't OP.
Those players with that gun may once again hope to push that gun Even Further.. totally outstripping all other weapons.. then boredom, new enemy, more damage, boredom... etc. This is the danger of power creep, as it consumes and wastes the development of everything that isn't OP, in it's need to meet the demands of those who use it.Out of context, I can see how that statement could be interpreted how you did. But in the context of the rest of the post this is what you got out of it?
If I was for some reason advocating for OP weapons, wouldn't that go against basically every other point I made about Rivens? It would be completely illogical for me to make the points I made and also say that nothing should be nerfed. I agree with everything you said, and nothing you say here goes against anything I wrote in the original post.
What you interpreted by "Weapons being innately unbalanced is not a bad thing." is not at all what I meant by that statement (did you just read the bold and skip the rest?), what I meant by that statement is that not all weapons need to innately be "good", they just need to be serviceable for their intended role. Then Rivens serve to being everything up to equal.
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Let's just start with a picture I expertly made in PowerPoint.
Going from left to right represents a weapon being more powerful. Purple boxes on the right represent the weapon equipped with a Riven.
This is what I am pretty sure Rivens are supposed to be. Weapon progression is a thing, the idea that "all weapons should just be balanced" is ridiculous because that takes all the wind out of a player initially progressing through the game. You know how weapons are all given a MR requirement? And how weapons generally get more powerful with higher MR? That isn't an accident, it is basic game design to encourage players to progress through the game.
Weapons being innately unbalanced is not a bad thing. The journey of finding new tools, making a goal of getting something better, that is the life blood of a new player.
Then we get to Rivens. Rivens are, in their own way, the most "endgame" endgame system we have. The purpose for Rivens that DE have tried to express is to add a massive amount of weapon diversity to the endgame. All of those intentionally "bad" weapons that are part of initial weapon progression are basically wasted content for DE. The art, mechanics, at base they all are useless to a veteran player if they are attached to a weapon targeted at lower level players. The goal of Rivens is to make it so every weapon in the game is viable in the late game. The goal of Rivens was never to be a form of power progression where you get better tools, it was a system to bring up bad tools and make them good.
This is why the changes to make weapon variants have different Dispositions was a great one. The whole point of Rivens is to make it so every weapon, non-Prime variants included, can compete. Rivens are the great equalizer. And if you are thinking "then why should I get better weapons", then you are asking the wrong question. Again, the point of Rivens is NOT to serve as power progression. Nearly every variant weapon has different characteristics from the base versions that make them feel different to use. The point of RIvens is to give players more choice in how they want to play.
Corinth for example. In a perfectly balanced system both Corinth and Corinth Prime, when equipped with a Riven, would be equally powerful. So then which weapon you would use would come down to taste. Do you prefer the buckshot mechanics of Prime, or regular? Do you prefer reloading single rounds or a whole magazine? Balanced Rivens add more player choice and greater loadout diversity.
And this... this is why Rivens need to be balanced. Sometimes they need to be nerfed, sometimes they need to be buffed, Rivens will only work for their intended purpose if they are balanced.
Rivens have a lot of issues. Their means of acquisition, their slot-machine nature, their cyclical progression (instead of linear), their current dispositions, they have some massive issues. But I think it is important to keep in mind the goal DE has set out for Rivens.
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8 minutes ago, (XB1)ECCHO SIERRA said:
artificially creating more grind.
Okay, but this isn't inherently a bad thing. Most Arcanes were buffed with their new rank 5 cap, so by increasing the total rank DE was able to add a reason for veteran players who had Arcanes maxed to grind again. It is kind of like increasing the level cap in an MMO when an expansion comes out. It is entirely "artificial", but it adds something for people who were "done" with the game something to do.
People keep begging for a reason to play the game and to get useful rewards for their time, increasing the Arcane cap to 5 did just that.
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While I don't disagree with the points made for the examples given, it seems a bit unfair to ignore all of the times DE has balanced things well. Everything will always be doom and gloom if you ignore all of the positives. For example, Limbo was just "balanced". However this balance pass only made him consistent with other Warframes, left him still powerful in the situation he was previously exploiting, and had no knock-on effects that hindered his performance in the rest of the game.
This is like saying "all drivers suck" after a single person cut you off on the road despite having passed hundreds of cars prior. You can't just ignore the good and blanket everything as bad.
It is easy to say "hey look, DE did a bad, they suck at balance." But that is unfair to all of the times DE has properly balanced in the past, as well as ignores how they often respond after they poorly balance something.
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4 hours ago, Kiiaras said:
Octavia.
This is the correct answer. Not only can Octavia stay effectively invincible indefinitely, she also has infinite scaling ability damage and substantial buffs to weapon damage. And if that isn't enough, she also has an ability that just turns off enemy AI.
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2 hours ago, (PS4)LeBlingKing said:
Balance or power fantasy?
THESE TWO THINGS AREN'T MUTUALLY EXCLUSIVE
"Balance" doesn't mean something is hard, easy, it just means that everything is similar. If a game is a good power fantasy it is BALANCED so it is consistently a power fantasy. You need to balance a power fantasy so that different avenues of expressing your power are all fulfilling. It is literally the exact same thing as balancing a hard game by making sure that no content can be cheesed. Making something less powerful (nerf) does not inherently mean you are breaking the power fantasy. If you "nerf" something so it deals less damage, but it still one-shots enemies, how is that having any impact on your power fantasy?
The "no nerf, only buff" mentality is just as deadly to a power fantasy as it is to any other type of game.
I know this isn't the point of your post, but good lord I am sick and tired of people saying that balance doesn't exist in a power fantasy.
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A nerf does not make a thing bad, Polearms are still very good. In some sense they are much better as a lot of them got substantial buffs to their critical and/or status chance stats. Their range is also still substantial.
If a thing is worse than it was, but is still very good, why are you complaining?
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I just hate riven rolling....
in General Discussion
Posted
Wait, are you telling me that slot machines aren't a fun progression system? Who woulda thunk...
Also the amount of "don't like it, don't do it" in this thread is depressing. Rivens are a part of the game, in fact they are the only avenue we have further invest into our favorite weapons. I would hope such a system would have as wide of an appeal as possible. If someone isn't please with the system they have every right to complain about it and wish for it to be better.