JuanDeages
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Posts posted by JuanDeages
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Depending on how it is actually implemented, it could very well be a disaster. The way it sounds, as of now, high damage per shot, good ammo economy weapons would be even more top tier than before, while automatics would all be junk. Some low and mid tier weapons could be even weaker than they already are.lol ikr? everyone is coming up with some solution to an "assumed" disaster that they have no idea whether or not will happen.
We will have to wait and see, but there is certainly more cause for concern than you care to admit.
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OP, ty. This is exactly how I feel, and have played the game since I came back a year ago. I have hours on hours, yet I'm MR 10. Mastery fodder is THE worst part of the game, and why Draco is as popular as it is. Something needs to change to allow people that just enjoy messing around with their favorite gear to pick up some points here and there.
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My preferred analogy of Warframe's current balance is that it's a teetering Jenga tower with most of the blocks missing, except all the blocks are made out of high explosive. The tower is shaky already, and you don't know if pulling out any one block will cause the entire edifice to come crashing down, blowing you, your friends, and everyone else up.
The only way to rebalance the game is to adjust everything-damage mods (and I mean all the +damage/+multishot mods), enemy health and damage scaling, enemy star map levels, possibly mission rewards, and fix all of it at once. Otherwise, things get more than a little messed up.
Changes to single components are a thing you do when the systems, overall, work and you're dealing with a peripheral system. When the system, in total, is very shaky, changes to single components are likely to completely break the system, especially if you're dealing with anything that's "mandatory" or "important" in the system. The example I'd use for what the multishot nerf seems like, to me, is Exalted Second Edition.
If anyone is familiar with Exalted Second Edition's combat system, they'll know what I mean. If they aren't, I'll explain briefly. In Exalted Second Edition, because of the massive lethality of attacks (damage scaled far better than health and armor), you would get instantly killed if an attack hit you. Furthermore, attack accuracy scaled better than defenses like dodging and blocking, so you'd likely get hit if you were relying on those. Fortunately, characters were given the power to pay magical energy ("motes") to perfectly block or dodge an attack, ignoring it. Because of this setup, all fights devolved to both sides whaling on each other with perfectly normal attacks and saving all their magical energy to defend against enemy attacks, repeat until one side or the other ran out of magic juice and died. This is bad-it made perfect defenses necessary and it made combat and character building boring.
To fix this problem, the developers had to basically redo every single weapon's damage, recost every single armor, modify almost every power that increased attack damage, introduced several new concepts to allow people to use magical energy for offense without weakening their defenses (because otherwise they would be able to pay for fewer invocations of their perfect defenses) and only then could they nerf perfect defenses. This, I might note, didn't actually fix every issue-it was just a patch job that rendered the game system somewhat playable without investing in a perfect defense.
This is the kind of herculean effort eliminating 'mandatory mods' in a way that doesn't lead to the game balance breaking one way or the other will need to go through-it'll require basically an entire overhaul of hundreds of weapons, of enemy leveling, of enemy damage and scaling, possibly even of mission rewards. Now, the game will be better for the effort, but that assumes DE is actually going in and adjusting all of this together, then putting it out together. Otherwise, the result will probably be worse than the current system.
I have no problems with making multishot non-mandatory and thus weaker in general. I have a problem with the fact that DE thinks that multishot's mandatory nature is a problem in and of itself, rather than a symptom of deeper issues.
If this does happen, we may well need a public beta environment to test this massive patch. A beta within a beta if you will. They can't just rip the rug out from under our feet, toss us a sheet, and tell us to have a nice day. If this is really what their endgame for, well, fixing endgame, is going to be, it must be thoroughly tested in a separate environment by the player base at large. They NEED veteran feedback. The guys that play day in, and day out, and crunch numbers, are only going to help them figure this out. They need data from players to see if the game is sustainable with all the changes needed to overhaul the system. If the game can't be sustained, we lose everything, which I don't think any of us want.
My two cents.
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I agree. The proposed multishot changes would brick wall late game endless missions, which makes up for the vast majority of Warframe's late game experience. Imo, endless IS the game. If DE breaks it, what do we really have left? What is there to use these ridiculously damaging weapons on?
Having that said, I think the numbers should not be such that an unmodded level 30 gun goes to late game, but to where late game enemies don't eat entire magazines and laugh at you with a 5-6 forma weapon.
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I hope this is a joke. Multishot consuming ammo would completely defeat the purpose of it existing. Machine pistols may as well be deleted from the game.
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I have a maxed Magnum Force I could sell you. 390p. I won't be on until I get off work, so add me if you want to trade.
IGN: JuanDeages
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I can sell you one if you are on
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I can sell you one for 60p.
IGN: JuanDeages
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Primed mods should not be bandaid fixes for bad game machanics and balance!
Yet we have Primed Point Blank.
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My bro says the Tigris is pretty good to, he says he does like 30-40K crits with it. Ive heard the Hek does alot of dmg. And yeah, ive seen, that even against lv 50-60 mobs my Soma starts to take alot of bullets to drop them, even in the head and after dropping the pedo bears, shield ospreys and stuff.
On a side note though, if the Hek is amazing, does that mean the Prime Point Blanks I got off Baro just for selling might sell well?
I wouldn't sell it if you only have one copy. Shotguns are really strong right now. I imagine you could sell it to those still looking to get their hands on it though.
And yes, the Tigris is pretty good right now. The Hek is slightly better at this time though.
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This would be a very welcome change to help bring machine pistols up to snuff. I enjoy using them, but they don't do much past 35 minutes, unless of course you have an entire magazine to dump into one or two enemies.
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What makes the Soma and its Prime so good, atleast that I can see, is that it doesnt have to much or to little of any one thing.
In that list, just the guns I know, Bratton vs Soma, Soma has alot more ammo in the mag and better RoF. But yes, Braton is a good one. I have one x5 forma. Its a nice weapon to use sometimes. But I find myself going back to my Soma for the real serious missions.
Against bows, the Soma is just easier to use, alot more sustainability, better RoF, more ammo. Less raw damage, no lie, but its the ease of use and overall versatility of the Soma there.
Grakata, my dad had this gun, while, maybe forma'd its not bad, I found it fired to quick to be really good...spends more time reloading then firing. But, it was just a base lvl 30 gun, so...
Vs the Supra, a gun ive used a fair bit, like 14,000 kills with it. Compared to the Soma, it has terrible accuracy, recoil and velocity. All points which come together as one to make the gun just irritating to use. Supra, barring those 3 factors is a good gun, good dmg, mag size, ammo reserve. I give it like a 7/10, let down by those 3 factors. I can work wiht a gun that requires lead, ive done it in many shooters, but t he thing being, the guns in this game has SOoooo little velocity that even at very close range I need to put on ALOT of lead. I mean, firing down a hill on the corpus excavations, I gotta lead like 10 feet in front of them. Not like other shooters, where I simply lead a few inches in front of them at great distances.
Soma Vs Supra, Soma just has ease of use, comfort and alot of versatility. Again, Supra is not a bad gun, otherwise, I wouldnt have 13-14,000 kills with it, but the 3 factors i mention just make it "feel" terrible and irritating to use. Slight buff to acc and velocity and it owuld be fine really. And yes, I use Terminal.
Vs Vectis, Soma has versatility and massive mag cap. Vectis and its prime, yes, its a OHK on pretty much anything, but its a sniper, its slow, clunky, cumbersome and just not versatile. You gotta actually aim it, while soma you can burst fire or full auto into guys.
Vs the Gorgons, Soma and its prime have massive accuracy and far more overall effectiveness because of it. While the Gorgons might have better raw damage, the Gorgons are just to damn inaccurate. I burst fire my weapons and even then, find myself watching the rounds miss guys entirely, even from mid ranges, like, your average range in this game. TTK is kinda long on them due to that. I do aim head-neck lvl, might also be why, but still.
So, while, ive read the replies, I am glad to see them, and that there is alot of other guns that are good ones, I can see why compared to a Soma they might seem less amazing then they really are. Soma has been OPd against the other guns in all the right ways to make it appear ALOT more powerful then the other guns. While other guns just require a more specialized loadout and useage, Soma and its Prime are just general purpose lawn mowers with the perfect balance of everything.
I think you are greatly overrating the Soma based on low level experience. Its DPS is high, but later on the number of bullets it takes to kill units becomes too much to upkeep. Even in terms of raw DPS, it is fairly middle of the road right now. Its accurate, easy to use, and has great sustained damage, but its ammo economy in the late game isn't much to write home about. As far as rifles go, I typically fall back on the Boltor Prime, or the Latron Wraith for the extra ammo economy, and status, the Latron Wraith even more so in the ammo economy department.
As a suggestion for a place to start, if you can get your hands on a Hek, and its syndicate mod, you're going to like the numbers it puts up.
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Yeah, ive read the replies, seems to me, high end content in this game turns into lots of massive AoE and explosive weaponry. Lots and lots of high damage, mass AoE firepower.
And no, I have not seen past a lvl 50 mobs, and those only in the Gorgon Wraith alert. Before that, 40 minutes and 35 rounds into defense is all the higher ive seen.
Also seems to be the game goes from us being gods, to the mobs simply 1 shotting us. Ive done a few invasions vs the Infested, and they simply 1 shot me....through rhino skin, 1280 shields and 800 health...bam, dead....
Against level 50s I could bring my Karak Wraith to similar effect. Mobs really stack up in the late game, and even barring that, there are a TON of weapons that deal equal, or more, single target DPS than the Soma Prime. The list for primaries is pretty long, but the list for secondaries is just as long. Weapons like the Brakk, Mara Detron, Lex Prime, AkMagnus, Vaykor Marelok, Rakta Ballistika etc. all deal more damage per second, and damage per shot.
Basically, the Soma Prime is not the clear cut winner of being the "best gun in the game." It is just the only top tier automatic hitscan rifle. From the Soma Prime the next in line would be the Braton Prime, which in terms of DPS, is a fairly steep drop. Its status is the only thing that keeps it in the conversation at all.
Also, Rhino Prime is an all arounder. He is no where near the most tanky, nor does he deal the most damage, or even have the best CC, but he has a good skill that does all of those things (Iron Skin/Roar/Stomp). If you want to really tank it up, play Trinity, Chroma, or Valkyr. I personally like to dust off Trinity from time to time. Hell, my Saryn is tankier than my Rhino.
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I actually hated the Boltor. Regular one that is. Didnt like its travel time, needing to put like 15 feet of lead from 10 feet away...just doesnt sit well with me.
I can land head shots just fine with any other weapon though. Hit scan? Almost makes it to easy.
The Boltor Prime is FAR better than the regular Boltor. Projectiles are much faster.
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I just put random elementals in the build as it was the raw damage value I was adjusting; not a particular build. I was assuming a more casual setting where your team isn't super-coordinated. Nonetheless Tigris can still one-shot almost anything regularly encountered in the game, which I guess is what DE was going for when they quadrupled its damage. The fact that the Hek can also do this points to the lunacy of Scattered Justice.
As for the half-speed Boltor Prime, I think that weapons at its power level should have significant drawbacks. We really don't need more top-tier weapons because the mid-tier and even low-tier weapons also perform adequately or more even on level 80 enemies when modded correctly and even better when team synergy comes into the equation.
Point and click guns shouldn't be as powerful as guns that require you to plan around them. A tricky-to-use gun that can potentially put out huge damage is much more satisfying to use than a direct numerical upgrade (on massive, game-breaking steroids) from a starter weapon. That's why I mentioned different tiers of players; weak [or lazy] players can rely on the OP stuff when they can't deal with content otherwise while advanced players can enjoy a variety of different equipment options and the resulting play-styles while being just as effective. If it were up to me personally I would remove all kinds of training wheels from our equipment options but that would reduce the game's audience significantly. You say that good players always push the limits of what's possible; isn't the act and effort of pushing those limits what creates meaningful gameplay and replayability for those players?
More feedback need to be like this. In a game with this many options (and that's the whole point) there's no harm in asking for a few more that do what you want instead of changing what already works for someone else. Too many rework threads based on broken expectations and not enough legitimate feature requests.
I think someone at DE just really wants the Hek to be good. Not that I mind, it is really fun to shoot, but it has been indirectly buffed with 3 different mods before it was directly buffed. I was pretty happy with it once seeking fury came out, tbh. I felt like it was in a good place. That's for another thread though.
Well, I know the Tigris can one shot things for a LONG time. That is not the issue. My take on the secondary fire, well what WAS the secondary fire, is that it offers a choice that is not forced on you, like the Vectis Prime fiasco. I'm sure most Vectis users just gave up on that one. Having the secondary fire just smooths things out for the early mid game of endless missions, as it does insane overkill damage for a while, making one shot more than enough to kill an enemy, or group of enemies.
Imo we need more top tier weapons, not to bulldoze content with more godly gear, but to provide more choices going into the very late game in both team and solo settings. Non-endless difficulty in general is pretty trivial, but DE has some ideas in the works to help with difficulty in general. The curve goes from too easy to impossible, with little in between. The point is, I would like the Tigris to be in strong contention with the Hek to give late game options to players that just want some additional flavor in their hour+ runs.
As far as tiers of players, let me provide an example. I used to be a huge Mag player. It was basically a more arcade-like version of battlefield, with a much larger number of players on the map, with a skill tree. Anyway, throughout much of the game's life, especially near the end, the tier 2 assault rifle was the king of weapons in the game. Most of the best players had one as a staple in most, if not all, of their loadouts. Why? It was not very difficult to use, and in fact, that is part of why it was used so often. It had decent damage, was exceptionally accurate, had nearly no recoil, and came with a decent ammo pool. To be fair, accuracy was incredibly important (it also had very effective silencers), even more so than most shooters I've played, but the weapon was not hard to use on any faction. The difficulty of the game came from the players you fought against, and trying to get such a large team on the same page as you. Using a weapon that you KNOW to be worse that what is optimal is creating artificial difficulty. At some point, if the quality of life for a powerful weapon is so poor, no amount of payoff can make it worth using another top tier weapon that is easier to use. I could use a battle rifle with a x4 sight, and maybe kill some people, but why fight with one arm tied behind my back?
The guns should not impose difficulty on the player, the enemies you face should.
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http://goo.gl/dLuFrx is closer to what I would use for the Tigris, since the bonus Slash from Sweeping Serration would go to waste against later Grineer and Seeking Fury already gives an appreciable bonus to reload speed.
Regarding your comparison to those two guns, if it were up to me they would both have limiting factors of their own. There's no real reason to have EZMode weapons in this game except as go-to options for players who are bad at games or who are only interested in rewards and not in actual gameplay. Nonetheless, if they did something like halve the Boltor Prime's projectile speed or something like that I would be much more inclined to use it over its competitor because it would be much more interesting to use. The
communityvocal forum minority would, of course, be in an uproar over the QoL nerf but the maxcase of the weapon would remain the mostly the same with a bonus to those who use it well.My build is assuming X4 corrosive projection. I would use Corrosive/Heat or Radiation/Viral against corrupted and grineer respectively.
Why Gas/Cold? I'm going to assume that was meant to be viral/heat.
As far as weapon choice for bad players/good players, I don't feel like making a gun intentionally clunky is a way to create meaningful balance, nor does using a clunky gun make you a better player. Good players push to the edge of what is possible, regardless of what the limiting factor is. Perhaps it is other players, or in the case of PvE, enemy scaling and wave comps. In the case of shooters in general, better aim is always going to help you. Not all players running Boltor Primes are equal. No matter how good, how hard, or how easy a gun is to use, it takes player input. Not counting peacemakers lol.
Also, half speed Boltor Prime bolts? You must hate yourself. That sounds awful, and would massively skew the balance of power to the Soma Prime. We need more top tier Assault Rifles, not less. We are sitting on too many mid tier automatics in this game as is.
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Tigris has twice as much base damage. Are you incorporating the syndicate mod and/or Accel Blast into this comparison?
It has twice as much base damage to compensate for its lack of the syndicate mod. I will provide some example builds. Note that I consider Seeking Fury to be core to both weapons.
Hek:
Tigris:
I consider these to be fairly standard builds, would you agree? If you compare the damage per shot, burst, and sustained values, they are very similar, but they are mostly in the Hek's favor. The Tigris does a little more damage per shell with sweeping serration vs a 90% elemental. The quality of life that the semi-auto gave to the Tigris allowed it to be in closer contention with the Hek, while still allowing the flavor of choice. Imo, the Hek is just the superior option now, which is a shame, because the style the Tigris has is pretty cool.
Basically, what I'm trying to say, is the Tigris & the Hek, was like the Soma Prime and the Boltor Prime. If they just gutted the Soma, everyone would just use the Boltor. Why do we need less choice? That's not to say the Tigris does poor damage, but its biggest downfall is usability, and as quickly as it was given, it was taken away.
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Sounds awesome. /sign
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A: it keeps the weapon and its usage in check
B: it keeps the kiddies running to the new post U17 buff super weapon in check
C: the only people complaining about it is the new users that is now using it post buff
D: if it really bugs the people that much then they should find another weapon, I refuse to use the Soma due to its firecracker firing sound, should the sound department go change that just because there is people like me that also hate the sound the soma makes?
It doesn't keep anyone "in check." I liked the semi-auto fire for junk troops/early game. As is, the Hek is easier to use, and does the same damage per shell, unless you drop ammo stock/tactical pump for more damage, in which case its damage per shot is a bit higher.
Moral of the story, those of us that didn't use it before will just use the Hek, just as DE intended I guess.
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In my opinion duplex should go to alt-fire, and semi-auto to primary.
This.
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Tried out the alt fire on the Tigris (1 shot as opposed to 2 at once), and there's a really long delay before you can fire off the second round with the alt fire. A fix would be nice.
I kind of wish the single shot firing mode was the primary fire, and the duplex-auto was secondary as well. A single shell does do 30k-40k damage as it stands... two is overkill until late into the game.
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My Tigris is absolutely maxed (with punchtrhough), and I gotta say, it could really use a more severe falloff. I'm one shotting wave four Eximus on Draco across the entire map, when only like 2-3 pellets land.
The Hek can do the same thing. The damage the two guns have is very similar. They also have the same accuracy rating. I think the lower magazine, slower RoF shotguns need the range to round them out.
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What if the weapons were not dual wielded, but instead used for different attacks within the different combos, kind of DMC styled? Just a thought.
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I kind of wish DE would make a zero drain utility slot for guns for mods like this, similar to what they did with Warframes. That would make a lot of these weak mods usuable.
To be clear, nightmare mods and primed mods would not be eligible if they actually did make this slot.
Wtb T4 Capture Keys 4P Each
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I can sell you some. I should have a stack I can afford to give up. Add me, and after I get off work we can see how many you want.
IGN: JuanDeages