On De's Insistence On Using Rng In Everything (Including Survival)

[Nubsawce]

Hello,

 

So, as we all know, the survival mode isn't simply "survive brutal waves of enemies for as long as you can".

 

It is "survive mediocre waves that you aren't scared of, and pray to RNGods that they drop oxygen supplies and that lotus helps you out".

 

I doubt I really need to touch on all the other ways DE uses RNG, but I shall list a few: materials, boss runs, nightmare mode, the void, etc.

 

In general, what does RNG do for us? What does it add to the game?

 

In the new survival mode:

It allows me to lose simply because I was not granted the divine RNG gift of oxygen, even when doing my very best to minimize oxygen usage according to forum-goer findings. I lasted 16:36 I believe it was having wiped out the entire area with virtually no running around, and then I ran out of oxygen. A couple other runs saw this around 13 or 14 minutes in.

 

Why do I lose because of this? This has no reflection on my skill as a player, as I completed the objective of destroying all enemies, and I simply was not given oxygen.

 

In general: RNG just artificially steals victory from people in Survival.

____

Elsewhere:

This is obvious, but I shall point out the specifics to be complete:

 

1) Boss runs must be done dozens of times under most circumstances to acquire blueprints to create core game components (weapons and or frames). Under most circumstances, for efficiency, they must also be ground for rare materials. But you may just end up with 10 chassis by the end of the day, and nothing new to show for it.

 

Obvious: some people get a lot of frustration with little to no payoff if RNG simply doesn't favor them that day, and some people work very little and get their payoff. Why is this not more normalized? What does the game gain? Is the pleasure of the lucky worth the displeasure of the far more numerous unlucky? Humans are more prone to remember the bad grinds over the good ones, in my experience.

 

2) The Void has three levels of RNG to it that adds even more to the frustration of those seeking a specific item. One must acquire the key from a defense mission first, then that key must be of the proper type in order to get a certain item reward pool, and then one must pray to the RNGods that this item out of a large list actually drops.

 

We all know this can take forever. We all know there is an item we just gave up on making (or at least all but the most dedicated) because RNG. Latron Prime, I have 18 of your blueprints, tons of stocks, a receiver even, but no barrel. After dozens and dozens of runs. I even made sure to maximize my chances with the datamined table, yes.

 

The same question shows up again: where is the benefit to this? Where does this help the game in any way?

 

3) Materials (particularly ones being spammed in weapons) are necessarily inefficient to gather because of RNG. There is nowhere I can go to assure me that after X minutes (roughly) of work I can get myself a Neurode or Mutagen Samples. Sometimes I might get them, sure, but it's up to the whims of RNG if I can make my Sobek today, or my Dual Vastos today.

 

Do I really need to say it again? It's just cheap, unfun mechanics that never should have been so central to the game.

 

Sure, bits of RNG here and there may make people excited when they occur, but they shouldn't be so ingrained into the core of the game. Nearly every aspect is simply a whim of the RNG, all the way up to how difficult it is to get to a boss in a level. I've had completely empty ships on boss runs. I've had ones so congested I got locked down in every room because I just could not thin them out enough to prevent it.

________

 

Closing: I am aware that my experience may not reflect the greater coop community in all respects, seeing as I primarily but not exclusively play solo, but many of my issues have nothing to do with player amount at all.

 

It seems incredibly obvious to me that using RNG everywhere is unfun and stupid. Why it manages to permeate all parts of this game baffles me and it makes me want to not play, because I hardly ever feel like I truly earn what I get or get what I earn. No one wins with RNG, not more than a passing spree of luck that runs out soon enough.

 

I want to see far less RNG, ultimately. I want "Survival Mode" to really be about being an efficient and deadly killer, not about praying for oxygen and being bored by the mediocre assaults.

 

So, yeah, feel free to post your thoughts on the matter. Hopefully I'm not alone in my bafflement at this design choice.

[W4RM4CHIN3]

It be better if every 15 mobs killed one oxygen tank was dropped.

[AlchemistMute]

I remember posting a topic about this.. and well, people just assumed I sucked and gave me tips on how to get oxygen.

 

They'll just think you're QQ'ing and defend DE. Really, though, you make a good point. We're not surviving the enemies, we're surviving the low amounts of oxygen they have. :/

[yuujisakakibara]

I agree on the survival part, void key and BP.

I don't really have problems with the materials, sure rare materials are rare, but at least there are good chance of finding a materials.

In a normal runs (kill all enemies, open all container), i usually find 1 neurodes (or anything) rare in a run and only in rare instances where i get nothing.

Sure this takes time (10 orokin cell for example), but at least, i'm making a progress.

This is different from collecting tons of chasis, barrel or anything depending on your luck, especially about voids (got 8 Fang prime blades, but no handles after more than 20 T1&2 capture/defense/mobdef).

[Godmode_Ash]

I don't see why anyone would waste time to make such long post to complain about RNG in this event. The time you spend to post this you could probably try again and get the 20 min requirement.

 

If you think you are being screw over by RNG that tank doesn't drop, just try again? You have 4 days you know. Way to spend time to complain about something unnecessary that can be overcome easy.

Edited August 30, 2013 by Invoky

[MageMeat]

The tanks of oxygen only come 4 times within the first 10 minutes.

There's no RNG element there.

But for the rest of your post, I agree, especially with the boss drops.

[Nubsawce]

I don't see why anyone would waste time to make such long post to complain about RNG in this event. The time you spend to post this you could probably try again and get the 20 min requirement.

 

If you think you are being screw over by RNG that tank doesn't drop, just try again? You have 4 days you know. Way to spend time to complain about something unnecessary that can be overcome easy.

It's like you failed to understand even the most basic point of this post. I'm commenting about the entire game. Also, it's not fun to continue to fail around 15 or so minutes repeatedly just because the RNG decided against me. So no thanks, I'm not going to grind for a 20 minute survival time by sheer luck.

 

I did try again, too. Lost at 15 and 16 minutes with 1 or 2 mobs alive and ran out of oxygen. Did not waste a single point of oxygen when activating the lotus drops (aka only used them at 70% or less, to account for drop spikes, which didn't happen anyway, but so be it).

 

If all you want to do is mindlessly complain, make your own topic. You don't even have a real viewpoint besides "try again". How is that an argument for RNG?

[ZWarhammer]

Well yes RNG is annoying but the 20 min mark is not that difficult just use a 2 man team and stay at the pod plus safe the oxygen drops lotus sends you for last.

[Nubsawce]

bump because I feel like nobody must've seen this, and I think my OP deserves a read (I took enough time writing it, anyway).

 

Edit: I think it's low on reads because there's almost no hate either.

Edited August 31, 2013 by Nubsawce

[Sophronius]

Warframe is indeed way too RNG driven. This does not create gameplay variance, or more fun. Just frustration.

[braggaboom]

The tanks of oxygen only come 4 times within the first 10 minutes.

There's no RNG element there.

But for the rest of your post, I agree, especially with the boss drops.

Actually that's not true about the oxygen tanks.

The amount of oxygen tanks is also random. I had one game I played where I ended up getting 5 (My best time at 18:32 currently), had another play through where I only got 2 tanks within the 10 minutes.

Edited August 31, 2013 by braggaboom

[braggaboom]

I have to agree with OP on this one.

When I saw that this new mode was supposed to be "survival" I was overjoyed at the chance of actually pitting my skill against an endless hoard of enemies, only to find that the only thing I was really doing was fulfilling the chore of making sure I didn't run out of oxygen. (Not that you have much control over it)

[Paradoxbomb]

I have to agree with OP on this one.

When I saw that this new mode was supposed to be "survival" I was overjoyed at the chance of actually pitting my skill against an endless hoard of enemies, only to find that the only thing I was really doing was fulfilling the chore of making sure I didn't run out of oxygen. (Not that you have much control over it)

 

Agreed, I like the game mode, but I was kind of hoping for what the OP said, increasingly brutal enemies, just me, a couple of teammates and maybe reduced drops form enemies since you generally end up swimming in energy and ammo. That's not to say the oxygen thing was a bad idea, but maybe it could've been a random event that occurs in the midst of chaos, like Lotus telling you oxygen has been cut off and you have to hack a number of consoles to get it back online while your teammates cover your back. Or other random events like a boss/miniboss has entered the arena, or you suddenly have to defend a key ship system for several minutes until the Lotus could restabilize it. The current system is okay, but I feel like there was a lot of wasted potential.

 

I also do agree with the OP that a lot of content relies a bit too heavily on chance and RNG.

[LazyKnight]

I wouldn't mind if the oxygen drops were on a counter connected to NPC death just so there is a player controlled means to survive. I got 27 minutes survived and the group I was in failed(or won based off needing 20 minutes to win) because the oxygen completely dried up and wouldn't drop.

[Mak_Gohae]

It be better if every 15 mobs killed one oxygen tank was dropped.

 

That's basically what it is.... kill things fast so you can get more oxygen.

[Nubsawce]

I wouldn't mind if the oxygen drops were on a counter connected to NPC death just so there is a player controlled means to survive. I got 27 minutes survived and the group I was in failed(or won based off needing 20 minutes to win) because the oxygen completely dried up and wouldn't drop.

I honestly think the oxygen mechanic is lame entirely. The time should be set by the enemy difficulty being too great and the team getting wiped out (I think revives are lame in survival, too, but that's another battle not worth fighting).

 

Survival should not be about RNG in any respect. As my original post says, neither should the rest of the game. I don't see why any mode, survival or otherwise, should ever introduce a mechanic that can take victory from you simply because you're unlucky.

 

We don't need to mitigate the RNG, while keeping it. If we do that DE might get it in their heads that RNG is actually still a good thing to have. It's not. I have yet to see anyone provide to me a good answer as to why RNG benefits anyone but the most ridiculous outlier who always gets what he wants immediately, and my rebuttal to that case is that he's done with the game rather quickly if he never grinds.

 

Excuse me while I go rant mode for a moment. DE, STOP USING RNG BECAUSE ITS NOT FUN TO DEAL WITH. LET ME BE GOOD ON MY OWN. Phew, all right.

I guess, coming back to the original intent of this response, what do you think we gain by preserving an oxygen mechanic at all? Or were you just trying to salvage what DE already made (which is fine, but I think it's not worth salvaging)?

[Ganpot]

We don't need to mitigate the RNG, while keeping it. If we do that DE might get it in their heads that RNG is actually still a good thing to have. It's not. I have yet to see anyone provide to me a good answer as to why RNG benefits anyone but the most ridiculous outlier who always gets what he wants immediately, and my rebuttal to that case is that he's done with the game rather quickly if he never grinds.

 

There is a valid reason to include RNG in games, but it's a psychological reason instead of a gameplay one.  When things are RNG based, it is essentially gambling.  Humans get a sort of natural high when gambling (constant uncertainty and fear mixed with hope leads to an adrenaline rush, I suppose).  If an RNG system is well-done, it makes people grind more than they otherwise would.  There are plenty of examples of this, from collectible card games (such as Magic the Gathering) all the way to single-player RPGs (such as Diablo).  You don't have to like it, but that is just the way it is. 

 

I don't like RNG, and it could definitely be implemented better in this game.  However, I can see why DE wants to keep it around.  They have a massive success on their hands right now, and they are terrified that players will quit en mass if RNG stops compelling them to play (I don't think players would quit, but DE probably doesn't want to risk it). 

 

The major problem with RNG in this game is that it is a 3rd person shooter, as well as an RPG.  Randomization is fully accepted in RPGs (even embraced), but if a 3rd person shooter wants to be taken seriously it usually needs to reduce randomness as much as possible.  I would prefer for Warframe to embrace a more shooter-oriented approach in this regard (especially in combat itself). 

[Nubsawce]

There is a valid reason to include RNG in games, but it's a psychological reason instead of a gameplay one.  When things are RNG based, it is essentially gambling.  Humans get a sort of natural high when gambling (constant uncertainty and fear mixed with hope leads to an adrenaline rush, I suppose).  If an RNG system is well-done, it makes people grind more than they otherwise would.  There are plenty of examples of this, from collectible card games (such as Magic the Gathering) all the way to single-player RPGs (such as Diablo).  You don't have to like it, but that is just the way it is. 

 

I don't like RNG, and it could definitely be implemented better in this game.  However, I can see why DE wants to keep it around.  They have a massive success on their hands right now, and they are terrified that players will quit en mass if RNG stops compelling them to play (I don't think players would quit, but DE probably doesn't want to risk it). 

 

The major problem with RNG in this game is that it is a 3rd person shooter, as well as an RPG.  Randomization is fully accepted in RPGs (even embraced), but if a 3rd person shooter wants to be taken seriously it usually needs to reduce randomness as much as possible.  I would prefer for Warframe to embrace a more shooter-oriented approach in this regard (especially in combat itself). 

I see what you're saying, and to some extent, I agree. I just don't think we need to abuse the human interest in gambling in any core element of the game.

 

I think RNG can help, sometimes. I just meant you can't keep neutered but omnipresent RNG. It can exist in places. I particularly meant it cannot exist in a real survival mode.

 

The more RNG they use, also, cheapens their credibility in game-making by abusing a human condition (one that also not all people have; I am not particularly fond of gambling out of my love of consistency). They have a game that is strong enough not to need the fast food drug that is gambling high. They just need to capitalize on the best parts and cut out the crap the RNG does to us in core parts.

[litlit]

I see what you're saying, and to some extent, I agree. I just don't think we need to abuse the human interest in gambling in any core element of the game.

 

I think RNG can help, sometimes. I just meant you can't keep neutered but omnipresent RNG. It can exist in places. I particularly meant it cannot exist in a real survival mode.

 

The more RNG they use, also, cheapens their credibility in game-making by abusing a human condition (one that also not all people have; I am not particularly fond of gambling out of my love of consistency). They have a game that is strong enough not to need the fast food drug that is gambling high. They just need to capitalize on the best parts and cut out the crap the RNG does to us in core parts.

 

Agreed. It's easy to see why DE wants to keep RNG in the game, and to some extent it's fine, but it really does need to be kept in check better.

[Tesrac]

I would just like some consistency in the drops.....sometimes rates drop like rain, while commons a rate ad hell....other times it's reversed. Just a bit irritating, but to be expected all things considered.

[Madotsuki]

Well first off I wholeheartedly agree that the game relies way too much on RNG. However, there is also the fact that RNG is RIGGED to begin with. For example, it has actually been proven that DE significantly reduced enemy spawning on survival if you're soloing. In THEORY this was to make sure solo players won't get overwhelmed by enemy numbers balanced for 3-4 players. In reality it makes solo non-viable for getting past the 20 minute mark because you simply don't get enough enemy-dropped oxygen tanks, especially since for whatever reason DE decided to put a limit on how many oxygen tanks the Lotus would give you. Basically, if you want to get past the 20 minute mark, you are forced to go co-op to increase enemy spawns to a viable level.

It's bizarre why DE decided that players should rely on the RNG-based enemy-dropped oxygen primarily instead of the Lotus-dropped oxygen tanks. Afterall, if the Lotus tanks were dropped at fixed time intervals, and were balanced so that they would become the primary source of oxygen with enemy-dropped tanks as bonuses, then RNG would have been minimized for this gamemode and make it more of a test of skill than luck.

[Tsak]

the thing is alot of these things can be alleviated while playing coop

farming for keys? bring 3 friends so if you get the desired key to drop in a defense mission you now have 4

sure maybe this isn't what you wanted but it still gives you 4 times the amount of void missions

survival? more people = more mobs spawning, with a coordinated effort you can easily pass the 20 minute mark (me and my 2 friends got 1 random and told him to stay in the center so mobs would spawn smoothly and finished it on the 3rd try)

RNG? she's a harsh mistress i have to say, i ran 40 solo void missions ranging from t2-3 raids, captures etc
got 1 thing i needed

ran 5 t2 exterminates with a friend, and got 5 things i could use and then after that a few mob defenses and ended up getting a different piece of paris prime each time to where all i need is the blueprint...

RNG does indeed inflate the life of the game. not going to lie about it, but it's alot easier to deal with when you're playing with friends (my friends are fairly attentive and inform me of rare material drops if i miss them and visa versa)

but you gotta understand that this game is still in beta, and RNG definitely keeps people playing. maybe they just need more time for some content to pop out then they can start upping drop rates and whatnot? who knows, either way this game is great and the RNG just kinda makes me feel meh. i don't like it, but i definitely deal with it

[basilioss]

I agree. RNG needs to be toned down in different parts of the game. Listen, DE you cannot have a real survival mode based off of RNG. That is utterly ridiculous.

[Epk_KekAzz_Spaz_Hog]

So, as we all know, the survival mode isn't simply "survive brutal waves of enemies for as long as you can".

 

It is "survive mediocre waves that you aren't scared of, and pray to RNGods that they drop oxygen supplies and that lotus helps you out".

Agree, this new mode has nothing in common with real survival, name for it should be different.

[WarG0d]

As far as survival goes, I disagree.

 

I don't understand why ppl can't grasp the simple  idea of farming the tanks in the first 15min while the enemy are still easy, and that camp tactics will not get you a high survival time. Me and group friends figured it out and have no trouble keeping the oxygen at 90%+ until the 40min mark since at point making sure we have oxygen is the least of our worries and at times joke about how hard it is to aim in certain directions because of all the green waypoints(they were REALLY a problem at times).

 

Here are some tips if this mode come back in the future: pretty basic

- O2 tanks dropped by enemies don't disappear 

- Enemies respawn instantly letting you quickly build up a reserve

- You don't NEED to pick up tanks if you are sitting above 90% save them for later, even more so at 100% <--it just gets me when I see some random picking up every canister in sight even the O2 is pegged at 100%

- move around the map, go to them and don't let them come to you(but don't try to be rambo).

Edited September 1, 2013 by WarG0d