Still On The Nova Op Topic

[Mainabi]

I get what you are saying, and I know you have Nova levelled to 30 and your main is Saryn, you already said that in other threads (i dont remember where).

 

But what you are asking is, fixing the problem of "forum whining" and "low level defense missions (low = lvl 150)" but on the other hand excacerbating the problem that Nova already has a niche spot in high level defense. Your clan is known for doing high level defense, I dont think I need to explain what I am talking about.

sure I understand it but, that should still do it, people are crying about op because everything goes boom, take away that boom and people can still pew pew, and people like to pew pew or slash slash ;) there's no fun in sitting back and stay around, it's convenient yes but it's not rly fun at all, with the multiplier and slow only people have to do something again, yes it's still easier but everyone has to do something earlier, and that's what it is about, for damage people still have antimatter drop, but people barely use it since mp is way more effective

[Dunkelheit]

I dont care if Nova is "normal" with lvl 2000 mobs, she makes 99% of all content useless. This alone makes her OP. More importantly she makes everything boring. And her fragility cannot really be an argument,every frame is fragile with lvl 2000 mobs. And she might be the safest, just use your 4 and a long range weapon and look dumb while all mobs explode. 

 

Yes, I have her, no I dislike her... she makes every other 4 look like garbage.

 

Which 4 is actually better? And useful with lvl 2000 mobs?

[sh0Zz]

She got already a Silent Nerf around Update 9.7.

 

Nova has now already Problems with Level 60+ Ancients using M.Prime,

don't even talk about Grineer Mobs and you Guys still cry, that's ridiculous :D

 

Please stop destroy the Game with your Permanent Whiner Bullsh1t THX!

[rksk16it]

 

She got already a Silent Nerf around Update 9.7.

 

 

Wow if this true then ... holy**** DE just LOVES stealth nerfs !!

[XDeathCoreX]

Nova was not around much during survival and when she was, her Prime could NOT keep up with the massive enemy count in the end. Some op warframe she is.

 

If she was truly op, her Prime would have destroyed everything, but it did not. Some op ability. Nova's damage isn't so op in survival.

[taiiat]

sure I understand it but, that should still do it, people are crying about op because everything goes boom, take away that boom and people can still pew pew, and people like to pew pew or slash slash ;) there's no fun in sitting back and stay around, it's convenient yes but it's not rly fun at all, with the multiplier and slow only people have to do something again, yes it's still easier but everyone has to do something earlier, and that's what it is about, for damage people still have antimatter drop, but people barely use it since mp is way more effective

i only use Antimatter Drop when i'm playing Nova, i don't even equip MPrime :p

 

Antimatter Drop has more feasible damage output anyways, so if there's a group of units you're having trouble with, half of the energy used to smite that group, and i have more energy for later. 

granted, since i do that, i literally cannot use energy fast enough, it's always full at 450, lol.

(besides the fact that i hoard my energy like the first world bank of 'ju')

 

 

 

If she was truly op, her Prime would have destroyed everything, but it did not. Some op ability. Nova's damage isn't so op in survival.

gee, what do you know. everything isn't OP with level 300 enemies who have 95+% damage resistances. 

 

why do people keep balancing around irrelevant parts of the game? (oh right, because they're morons).

HWD and super long survivals are enter-at-your-own-risk. a game can't balance lv35923956235 enemies just because you want to fight them. you're given the option to fight them if you really want, but it isn't and cannot be balanced. that is something i will admit will always be unbalanced. it's the nature of these games. 

 

lv130 enemies are currently the highest level enemy that is relevant in Warframe.

Edited September 4, 2013 by taiiat

[XDeathCoreX]

i only use Antimatter Drop when i'm playing Nova, i don't even equip MPrime :p

 

Antimatter Drop has more feasible damage output anyways, so if there's a group of units you're having trouble with, half of the energy used to smite that group, and i have more energy for later. 

granted, since i do that, i literally cannot use energy fast enough, it's always full at 450, lol.

(besides the fact that i hoard my energy like the first world bank of 'ju')

 

 

 

gee, what do you know. everything isn't OP with level 300 enemies who have 95+% damage resistances. 

 

why do people keep balancing around irrelevant parts of the game? (oh right, because they're morons).

HWD and super long survivals are enter-at-your-own-risk. a game can't balance lv35923956235 enemies just because you want to fight them. you're given the option to fight them if you really want, but it isn't and cannot be balanced. that is something i will admit will always be unbalanced. it's the nature of these games. 

 

lv130 enemies are currently the highest level enemy that is relevant in Warframe.

Why do neanderthals jump to false conclusions? Didn't even mention the level of the enemies. This was after 30 minutes. They were around the same levels as the T3 void creatures and there were so many of them, prime just could not kill them off. Prime just cannot kill everything.

[taiiat]

Why do neanderthals jump to false conclusions? Didn't even mention the level of the enemies. This was after 30 minutes. They were around the same levels as the T3 void creatures and there were so many of them, prime just could not kill them off. Prime just cannot kill everything.

neither can anything at that level. enemy scaling already does this after ~lv70/80. 

MPrime can still kill lv80 ancients though, group the Infested up, THEN detonate. the additive damage will easily hit a few thousand, and you'll kill the Ancient, even though the explosion on the Ancient itself did like 25 damage, it didn't matter. 

and Ancients are the ONLY enemy in the entire game that is really a direct 'immune' to Novas' explosions. Grineer resist it but they have low health so still get destroyed generally.

 

(you could also use MPrime and half a dozen cannonballs, and the last cannonball will deal hundreds of thousands of damage, which enemies will still die from even if they have 90+% resistances, simply because of the Alpha Damage).

[XDeathCoreX]

neither can anything at that level. enemy scaling already does this after ~lv70/80. 

MPrime can still kill lv80 ancients though, group the Infested up, THEN detonate. the additive damage will easily hit a few thousand, and you'll kill the Ancient, even though the explosion on the Ancient itself did like 25 damage, it didn't matter. 

and Ancients are the ONLY enemy in the entire game that is really a direct 'immune' to Novas' explosions. Grineer resist it but they have low health so still get destroyed generally.

 

(you could also use MPrime and half a dozen cannonballs, and the last cannonball will deal hundreds of thousands of damage, which enemies will still die from even if they have 90+% resistances, simply because of the Alpha Damage).

What I'm saying survival after 20 minutes of Grineer and Corpus massacre produced so many grineer, there was never a shortage of enemies to kill and everyone was confined to a small space because of it. 

 

The infested produced a ton of Ancients and because Prime was spread too thin, prime didn't do much to lower their number and no one wants to wait until the toxics bunch up. this is where Vauban comes in. However even with Bastille, you are still left with plenty enemies to slaughter, Prime can only do so much but completely obliterate the battlefield after 20 or so minutes is unlikely.

 

Survival is where Nova reaches her limits and not later on in survival, but after 25 or so minutes.

[Falling_Tide]

Let me throw in my 2 cents.

 

Being "Made for high level gameplay" is another way of saying "She is overpowered"

 

Drop can easily do thousands of damage, I can afk with doing nothing but spam the 1 button for the first 1-4 waves of Xini.

 

And Molecular Prime... let's just put it this way. If Warframe is a Coop game, why can Molecular Prime do Damage, CC, and Debuff?

 

Also, forget to mention. Give me proof she isn't OP.

 

Glass cannon? Try 50 armor and Loki speed, mixed with loki's stats.

 

You want a true glass cannon? 1.0 sprint speed with 10 armor, and Loki shields amount.

Glass Cannon is true I would really like to say if they dropped the health and Shields, Nova would be rather balanced, keep movement otherwise if you didn't have it would be a rather hard Frame to play.

 

I wouldn't mind much if the Speed debuff on the Prime went away, as long as the Damage, chainable, and Aoe were left alone

 

In PvP Duels the only skill that allows damage to another player is Drop and that's it.... (For those who think, But you can launch it before the match starts, well then all that needs to be done is disable all stuff till timer is done.)

 

Finally At the end of the day, why the hell does another really care about wether or not she is OP, this is a Coop game... Oh but I don't get any kills, you may say.... Who cares!!! you won the match and got your loot whats the difference?

 

Nothing in this game is OP as it isn't a game heavily based in fighting other players. If you want something harder go to a different game or just stick with the worst stuff you can have and play solo on the hardest maps!

[Hayden11121]

Glass Cannon is true I would really like to say if they dropped the health and Shields, Nova would be rather balanced, keep movement otherwise if you didn't have it would be a rather hard Frame to play.

 

I wouldn't mind much if the Speed debuff on the Prime went away, as long as the Damage, chainable, and Aoe were left alone

 

In PvP Duels the only skill that allows damage to another player is Drop and that's it.... (For those who think, But you can launch it before the match starts, well then all that needs to be done is disable all stuff till timer is done.)

 

Finally At the end of the day, why the hell does another really care about wether or not she is OP, this is a Coop game... Oh but I don't get any kills, you may say.... Who cares!!! you won the match and got your loot whats the difference?

 

Nothing in this game is OP as it isn't a game heavily based in fighting other players. If you want something harder go to a different game or just stick with the worst stuff you can have and play solo on the hardest maps!

Nova avatar? Figures.

 

Try making sense instead of saying I resort to killstealing, and give actual facts instead of "OMG HE IS NUB"

[Falling_Tide]

Nova ruins defensive missions period for all other players by camping the spawns, prime is to fast to trigger and has to far a reach.

 

Overpowered is not the word for it.

Ha Not true an Ember is just as deadly as a nova on defense missions.... and considering that they are the only mission a nova can preform at full potential..... I would have to disagree with you

[Falling_Tide]

Nova avatar? Figures.

 

Try making sense instead of saying I resort to killstealing, and give actual facts instead of "OMG HE IS NUB"

I don't resort to KSing... ugh people and there assumptions

I tell my group I am about to Prime things so they can go on through, I don't do it for the kills, if anything I am happy when I get 3rd best damage and kills

 

Rhino is what my friend plays as and he generally gets more kills than anyone else in the game (dmg done and taken, abilities used)

 

I play nova as support not offense

 

Edit: There is no such thing as KSing in this game, as everyone get exp and items from said thing that is killed

Almost forgot about that kind of thought pattern

Edited September 4, 2013 by Falling_Tide

[TwiceDead]

 

I wouldn't mind much if the Speed debuff on the Prime went away, as long as the Damage, chainable, and Aoe were left alone

 

Is exactly what needs to go. 

The Speed and Debuff should remain, the AoE damage needs to go.

I play nova as support not offense

 

Then you should have no qualms with the removal of the AoE damage. 

 

If that happened, I'd suddenly no longer feel sick whenever I press the 4 button while playing a Nova... 

 

I comprehend that just fine. 

 

Lolno you don't. 

Edited September 4, 2013 by TwiceDead

[XDeathCoreX]

That being said I never felt weak with Nova, at all.

 

In trouble? Press 4, everything's damage output slows significantly if it's still alive after the explosion.

They usually live after 20 min or so(Survival).

[TwiceDead]

They usually live after 20 min or so(Survival).

Even if they do, they still take double damage and are slowed by 50%, which is a huge boon in itself. So that's 50% less damage taken from enemy sources in the vicinity of molecular prime. 

[gallowsCalibrator]

I like Molecular Prime because instead of becoming completely useless at higher levels, one part of its effect takes over to compensate for the other's relative uselessness.

 

Since at high levels the explosion damage barely tickles enemies, it is nice that the damage amplification and slow remains useful because it scales exactly the opposite way as the explosions - while the explosions' usefulness is inversely related to the amount of armor and health enemies have, the usefulness of the damage amp and slow are directly related to the amount of armor and health enemies have. Due to this, at a certain point in the middle of the spectrum, both are very useful and the effect of the ultimate is insane, but on both extremes, one of the effects becomes radically more useful than the other.

 

It's this scaling which I feel is very nice and I would like to see it as part of other frames' ultimates. Unfortunately, since this kind of scaling isn't the easiest to create, it's much easier to just nerf M-Prime.

 

The range on Molecular prime is a little silly and could use a decrease, but I would rather see other frames' ultimates receive some attention before a full-on nerf of Nova, since being "OP" is relative to what else is available.

[Hayden11121]

I like Molecular Prime because instead of becoming completely useless at higher levels, one part of its effect takes over to compensate for the other's relative uselessness.

 

Since at high levels the explosion damage barely tickles enemies, it is nice that the damage amplification and slow remains useful because it scales exactly the opposite way as the explosions - while the explosions' usefulness is inversely related to the amount of armor and health enemies have, the usefulness of the damage amp and slow are directly related to the amount of armor and health enemies have. Due to this, at a certain point in the middle of the spectrum, both are very useful and the effect of the ultimate is insane, but on both extremes, one of the effects becomes radically more useful than the other.

 

It's this scaling which I feel is very nice and I would like to see it as part of other frames' ultimates. Unfortunately, since this kind of scaling isn't the easiest to create, it's much easier to just nerf M-Prime.

 

The range on Molecular prime is a little silly and could use a decrease, but I would rather see other frames' ultimates receive some attention before a full-on nerf of Nova, since being "OP" is relative to what else is available.

But gallows, how do you buff everything else?

 

This one ultimate literally does everything you could want. Debuff, CC, and Damage.

 

I see no way of uniquely making more buffed skills that deal damage without being M Prime copies.

[gallowsCalibrator]

But gallows, how do you buff everything else?

 

This one ultimate literally does everything you could want. Debuff, CC, and Damage.

 

I see no way of uniquely making more buffed skills that deal damage without being M Prime copies.

Yeah, that's a big problem, which is why I'm not totally against a downward balancing of Molecular Prime. It would certainly be really, really nice if the other frames could be easily brought up to par with Nova, but it would take quite a bit of doing.

 

I just feel that right now, Nova's fun to play (at least for me). Some other frames aren't as fun to play, and I'd like to see them become more fun to play first.

 

Still, a man can dream, right? :3

Edited September 4, 2013 by gallowsCalibrator

[Hayden11121]

Yeah, that's a big problem, which is why I'm not totally against a downward balancing of Molecular Prime. It would certainly be really, really nice if the other frames could be easily brought up to par with Nova, but it would take quite a bit of doing.

 

I just feel that right now, Nova's fun to play. Some other frames aren't as fun to play, and I'd like to see them become more fun to play first.

 

Still, a man can dream, right? :3

But listen.

 

HOW DO YOU MAKE EVERY FRAME THAT STRONG?

 

The game will be boring, sandbox games where you play god gets boring in 30 minutes, and is not a good way to start off on.

 

Yes, I want frames to all be strong, and sufficient of doing damage and surviving. But I don't want everything to be "M Prime Reskins" which all do the same debuff, damage, and etc.

 

Which, Ultimates really have become just reskins of each other. I feel Nova needs to be nerfed, this is true. But I also strongly recommend every ultimate be reworked that isn't unique and efficient in more then just damage.

[gallowsCalibrator]

But listen.

 

HOW DO YOU MAKE EVERY FRAME THAT STRONG?

 

The game will be boring, sandbox games where you play god gets boring in 30 minutes, and is not a good way to start off on.

 

Yes, I want frames to all be strong, and sufficient of doing damage and surviving. But I don't want everything to be "M Prime Reskins" which all do the same debuff, damage, and etc.

 

Which, Ultimates really have become just reskins of each other. I feel Nova needs to be nerfed, this is true. But I also strongly recommend every ultimate be reworked that isn't unique and efficient in more then just damage.

Hopefully the damage rework fixes these issues, because right now, damage and CC are what abilities need to be considered "good."

 

It's just because of the armor and health scaling - because they scale in such a crazy way, abilities which either don't scale on enemy armor/health (such as Chaos and Bastille) or scale directly with enemy health (Sonar, Roar, Molecular Prime) are the best, while those which scale inversely with enemy health and armor (every single damage-dealing ability) are relegated to the garbage bin.

 

CC and health scaling are basically the only way for an ability to be "good," which really limits the variety available, since there are a lot of ways to apply damage in interesting ways (take Venom, Tesla, and Antimatter Drop for example), but CC and damage boosts basically only appear in very limited varieties (stun, slow/root, and damage boosting). 

 

Choices are limited, but I think the damage rework will help alleviate the issue as long as it makes actually doing damage a viable option for abilities.

 

This isn't an argument against nerfing Nova, just my thoughts on why we have the issue you raised in your post.

Edited September 4, 2013 by gallowsCalibrator

[Cpl_Facehugger]

Lolno you don't.

Listen, chief, the context of the discussion was Nova vs Bosses. Against bosses, the double damage is not a huge advantage because bosses have huge HP and oftentimes have invulnerability stages. Against bosses the slow is not a huge advantage because every boss in the game except for Tyl Regor can shoot. (And he can slashdash).

[Hayden11121]

 Against bosses, the double damage is not a huge advantage because bosses have huge HP and oftentimes have invulnerability stages. Against bosses the slow is not a huge advantage because every boss in the game except for Tyl Regor can shoot. (And he can slashdash).

Do you even realize how stupid you just sounded?

[Cpl_Facehugger]

Do you even realize how stupid you just sounded?

That would be because you haven't actually thought about this.

Say you've got a flux rifle. 200 DPS. You're going to go kill Kril. You cast M-Prime, your flux is now dealing 400 DPS. Kril is now 50% slower.

Sounds like a big deal, right?

Except Kril has something crazy like 20,000 HP and can only be hurt by shooting his back and baiting him into hammering the ground until he hits stage 2. He also has a gorgon which will very happily annihilate any Nova who tries to get cute with M-Prime.

The same issue applies to Hyena, Jackal, Raptor, Phorid, Golem... Even Ruk. Huge HP wells mean that in practice the 2x damage debuff is not as useful as it sounds taken in conjunction with Nova's fragility and lack of defensive power, and powerful ranged attacks (or in case of Golem, ability to yoink you into melee range) mean that the speed debuff is practically meaningless.

[TwiceDead]

Do you even realize how stupid you just sounded?

 

After reading this: 

 

That would be because you haven't actually thought about this.

Say you've got a flux rifle. 200 DPS. You're going to go kill Kril. You cast M-Prime, your flux is now dealing 400 DPS. Kril is now 50% slower.

Sounds like a big deal, right?

Except Kril has something crazy like 20,000 HP and can only be hurt by shooting his back and baiting him into hammering the ground until he hits stage 2. He also has a gorgon which will very happily annihilate any Nova who tries to get cute with M-Prime.

The same issue applies to Hyena, Jackal, Raptor, Phorid, Golem... Even Ruk. Huge HP wells mean that in practice the 2x damage debuff is not as useful as it sounds taken in conjunction with Nova's fragility and lack of defensive power, and powerful ranged attacks (or in case of Golem, ability to yoink you into melee range) mean that the speed debuff is practically meaningless.

I don't think he does realize... 

Edited September 4, 2013 by TwiceDead