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Grineer Graduates (new AI that won't affect the rest of the game/possible endgame)


nokinoks
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Meet the Grineer Graduates, for the most part they are ugly, clunky and all around ass looking genetic defects. . . . but they went to university!

 

So the Grineer Graduates are a faction within the Grineer ranks (corpus to come next) that are just awfully smart. Most units are similar to every other Grineer units but they have a different AI in a game map/mode that focuses on balance, strategy and challenge. Sometimes they lie in ambush, some times they set traps, some times they employ bottleneck strategies and sometimes, they come at you with vengeance and hell.

PS

They also utilize higher ground, flanking maneuvers, retreat and regroup mechanics and covering fire or focused fire. They're a fun bunch, they went to Uni and they gotta pay that student loan somehow.

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Light Enemies

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Butchers

They come at you like suicide bombers without the bomb, that will change here.

First they will change movement from straight af to "fish school graceful". In groups they will coordinate with other Butchers so that they can zigzag to you or your group instead of just going straight. They will also gang up on units with the lowest armor value within a radius, so caster frames beware!

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Flameblades

Essentially similar to Butchers but has the teleport ability, we will make them go ham. They will teleport and flank you, then attack your left, right or back and they will do it frequently and they won't get greedy, they will retreat once they damage you and recuperate and re-coordinate with their group. They are there for hit and run tactics. 

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Guardsman

These are just bland enemies using a #*!%ing Amphis. They can become a nuisance in the beginning and only if you luck out with the element you are using and aren't able to damage them but that is too much left to chance. With the Grineer Graduates, these enemies will be supporting types. They will fight defensively while giving bonus auras to the other Grineers. They will appear when there is a stalemate or when the Grineer is losing.

They have support auras like (they only have one of each):

Damage Mitigation - maybe they absorb it like Cap's shield? Maybe they halve it for any Grineer within their aura or 75% reduction like Trinity's Bless. I don't have the numbers but it will be damage mitigation gears towards absorbing Warframe ability damage.

Elemental Damage - you think bombards hurt? Wait til' it gives you aids! Can add elemental damage and of course, status effects.

Movement Boost - mobility aura, make the Grineer balls into Grineer nut-crackers with this seemingly innocent aura. Of course, it affects other units as well, giving them a speed boost but also making them more likely to bullet jump.

Healing Aura - have a Sailor Moon or Rayearth theme song play each time (or an iCarly or Drake and Josh song), the once beautiful song you remember from your youth is now a mocking reminder that all the damage you have incurred is slowly draining away. . . with a theme song. In all seriousness though, the name explains a lot.

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Powerfist

According to the Wiki, they take cover and wait in ambush. I've never really noticed that but I guess they're supposed to be sneaky. Let's change it so Powerfist wait for ambush but, wait for it! Wait for it! But with buddies! A single Powerfist is a joke, a single Powerfist lying in ambush is still insignificant, so let's make the Powerfist lie in ambush with his buddies. You might think, that's still not threatening, and you'd be right, so we're going to buff them. One, they will be CC enemies, meaning they will lie in ambush and do a ground slam on yo ass son! Then the Butchers and Flameswords will come and finish you off. You were careless, they were careful. You lose, they win. They will be like Youtubers and smash that ground slam button, they know they are One-Trick-Ponies and they will do it with more vigor than a Primed Vigor mod. 

Of course the main point of this game mode is balance, so they can't just spam ground slam without consequence; it will also affect the enemies. So if you get caught in the trap and the other units appear and come close, of course they will stop. But you are already down and just about to stand but the enemies are already on top of you. That Primed Handspring is looking good now isn't it?

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Scorpions

I hate these things, but now we will hate them more. They will see you, hide in cover THEN hook you. Of course they will do this in coordination with the other units so once you are dragged, you got other Grineer waiting on you, or else it's just annoying. Of course you can dodge this, you can roll or bullet jump out of the way. These units will be hell to a group that has mastered positioning (which is important in here because the opponents flank you if you aren't careful). Plus they got that machete. . . which is sharp! (Until you make it in the foundry and find out that it's S#&$)

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Shield Lancer

Oh this guy! OHHH! THIS! GUY! I hate him! Now we will hate him a bit more! So Shield Lancers have a bit of AI to them, some times they cover for other Grineer and slowly come at you. Now we will change the "slowly" part. So we will give the Lancers the ability to Dash. (lol, somehow I find this funny, they will be a pain to deal with and will be the type of enemy that make you say "RUN!" to your teammates) So they will gain dash BUT they will also have the ability to Bring a Friend. So another dude invades a Shield Lancers personal space (so to speak) and the Shield Lancer Dash towards you and rams you then his friend does a stabby-stabby while the Shield Lancer is already putting his shield up to protect his buddy's flank. Oh joy!

 

 

 

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Medium Enemies

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Ballista

Standard long range Grineer unit, slow fire rate but can be dangerous in groups. So that's where we'll put them, in groups. These enemies will now utilize cover fire and fire in sync like old time-y units that use muskets. They will fire together, togetherrrr. They will use high ground, cover fire, fire in-sync and #*!% your day up. No gimmicks, just normal thinking from a College Graduate. 

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Elite Lancers (normal Lancers not included here)

These units are the main units that compose the majority of the Grineer army. They use grenades and machine guns and employ slash damage. I'm not really sure if they need much change, they have good amount of armor so I think just making sure they attack in groups and actually really properly utilize cover fire. BUT, if a heavy unit is around, like a Bombard or Heavy Gunner, the Grineer among Grineers. They become grunts and increase and intensity of concentrated fire, cover fire, and generally just use corridors to stop Warframe advancement, they will also be rendered immune to "mind-control" abilities when there's a "leader" unit around. Imagine a hallway with 12 of these at the end using concentrated fire on you the moment your nose appears in their sight. They utilize map bottlenecks to ruin your day and maybe plant some kind of proximity plasma mine that will kill your Tenno if you ever dash or something? Of course the proximity mines also work on Frames.

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Eviscerator

I have no clue about this one. I don't see exactly how this can be made more strategic when the Lancers are already around. Maybe especial "hero" unit? You guys got any ideas?

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Helion

The bane of frames in PoE. God I hate these bastards. My burbframe dies from them a lot due to AoE. Helions have jet packs and fly overhead and attack with an AoE weapon. The map in my mind isn't open like the PoE but I suppose they can really do some damage when they are made into aerial support units. They will never ever attack alone. If a group of Butchers or Flameswords are near you, you know there's bound to  be a Helion flying around out of sight. So I guess make them more sneaky or time them so they screw you at the right moment where they will have a higher chance of success of doing damage to you instead of just flying and being a target. These Helions are made so there will ALWAYS be another target. If the ground units are defeated, they will always retreat to support another team. Unless of course there's more than one of them and for some reason you thought you were still in a normal map and decided to leave the flock. Ohhhhh boy you done goofed up! They got you now!

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Scorch

A medium Grineer unit that lies in ambush and uses a flamethrower. They should work with Shield Lancers, the Shield Lancers can dash near Tennos that are utilizing cover and the Scorch will use their flamethrower while being protected by Shield Lancers. That seems like a smart thing to do. Flamethrowers are generally short range so I suppose this unit is niche and must be positioned properly. No gimmicks needed I think, it's a flamethrower dude, not much you can add to that that won't ruin balance. They can also lie in wait and allow the Tennos to pass, then they can be used to cut off escape and producing confusion instead of dishing out damage.

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Seekers

They have two weapons, a Kraken pistol (woah!) and Latchers, those tiny things that latch on to Frames and blow up. I think instead of blowing up the Latchers should instead paralyze a frame for a second. Just a second. 1 second per Latcher. These units can also work with Shield Lancers (well I suppose a Shield Lancer can ferry most units). In the confusion of a firefight, they appear sneakily and throw Latchers at you. In general you should be able to shoot Latchers more easily than in the game (or maybe not?) but they throw it like Helions, using the right timing where you will be distracted and then these things attach to you and maybe they will be set off by proximity or maybe, and this might be cooler, an enemy "leader" unit can trigger them. So the "Leader" unit can decide when paralyzing you will be most useful. ooooooooooh, scary stuff.

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Troopers

Like Elite Lancers but with shotguns I think. Due to their range, they will have to move more carefully. Utilize Shield Lancers, hide behind Butchers. They will come at you with supporting units (usually the light units) and then gang up on a frame dealing damage from the ground while the Helion rain carnage up above. Or they will be ferried by a Shield Lancer, the Shield Lancer rams you, you're now down and then the Trooper shoots yo a$$ until you die and then you blame your teammate because you left the flock or because you drew too much aggro, boohoo T.T

 

 

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Heavy Units (Leader Units: Leader units are heavy units that gain a Leader Aura IF and only IF they have a particular amount of grunt units to command. So they can change the behavior of the Grunts like how Elite Lancers become more in-sync and become immune to mind-control and other cc abilities but the grunts also change the behavior of Leader units as instead of being aggressive, they will generally play in a defensive style focusing on CC and mobility (or damage mitigation) instead of damage and of course, the ability to "tag" invisible frames rendering invisibility useless. They can have certain immunity or resistance to Frame abilities and allow their Grunts to inherit this resistance to an extent as well. Balance and fairness but be observed, it will be difficult but it should be doable. 

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Bailiff

Another weird unit I don't know how to deal with. Another "hero" type I guess? High mobility due to its jet pack that allows it to jump and I suppose this unit can be a nightmare version of a Powerfist. The dude doesn't have to wait in ambush. Dude jumps up and down from frame to frame causing havoc, of course the other units take advantage of this and attack with coordination. A Bailiff will ground slam and do AoE damage and CC and maybe target "high value" frames like Trinity or other casters and CC.

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Bombards

A heavy unit that is tough to crack and uses an AoE weapon with a 4m blast radius. They are dangerous right now but you can generally deal with them, but in this game mode they are a #*!%ing nightmare. First, they are tanks, they will ram you or worse, they will be ferried by a Shield Lancer THEN ram your group. When they get in close proximity, they can plant mines on you that will explode when you get close to another frame. 

Leader behavior:

If there's enough Grunts, they will change to be "less" aggressive. Their AoE guns will become mine planters that they use strategically to prevent Tenno advancement and mobility. They will plant it in front of Ballista squads to keep you away or of course in hallways guarded by Elite Lancers and Ballistas. In general they will try to protect the Grunts. If you move too aggressively, you might win or you might get caught in their trap and flank you. If you move too slow, there will be enough bombs to create a no-win situation for your team. Let Rhino run inside the minefield, watch him die.

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Commander

I hate these units, not because of their teleport but because they are dumb af. They teleport you and then what? Nothing, that's what, they teleport you and place themselves near your teammates and nothing else happens to you. There's no positioning, no strategy and your frame acts like it's the first time it got teleported. So first, remove the "what the #*!%?!" teleportation animation where your character is goofishly stunned. Teleport the Tenno and no "stun", ruining the team's formation is damage enough. The commander will teleport Tennos into minefields or inside a group of Butchers, they will sneak in the back of Tennos and teleport them away from their team and cause havoc once within the team's close proximity. 

Leader Behavior:

The Commander is already tough and tricky (in this game mode), but when there's enough Grunts, the Commander will be able to Switch Teleport not himself, but others. Switch one Tenno to another to cause confusion, switch one Tenno to another unit to break formation and cause havoc. Switch one Tenno to an Elite Lancer WHILE a Shield Lancer downs another Tenno and carries another enemy unit effectively "downing" two Tennos at once.

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Drahk Master

So this dude spawns doggos, I don't really know what else to do with him. Hmm, maybe make his doggos like Sunikas? If I remember correctly, Sunikas can grapple enemies, I'm pretty sure another doggo can do it as well, I think the dig doggo. But yeah, maybe the doggos are able to cc the S#&$ out of the Frames. Imagine two doggos equals two downed Frames if they don't prioritize neutralizing the doggos. 

Leader Behavior:

I have no idea, four doggos? 

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Heavy Gunners

These things are a nightmare, same with Bombards, when left unchecked. Not much should be changed as this is already a tough nut, but I think it should still act smart. Fire in-between Ballista and Elite Lancer volleys so the Frames can't do jack. Maybe put stopping power on their bullets? It will be soft cc to someone being hit. Make the bullets able to pass the Rift, hwe hwe hwe. That should be fun, you see a Limbo confident one second and lying on the ground the next. Oh fun!

 

Leader Behavior:

Pretty much the same, it's already a powerful unit that utilize range and high armor for total $&*^ishness. Just the usual immunity and resistance and of course increased intensity of Grunts while the Leader is around.

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Hyekka Master 

So to make this one smarter, one, make their scorched ground strategic. Use the flamethrower to destroy the ground in bottleneck areas to make the Tennos back off. Have a Scorpion drag a Tenno in a Scorched Ground to deal damage and in general to just be a $&*^. Have the kitties harass the Tennos, not dealing critical damage but dealing slash damage to whittle away at life.

Leader Behavior:

Instant death to invisible units! Hwe Hwe Hwe. If the Hyekka Master gains the Leader Aura, any invisible units will be dealt with by the kitties with extreme impunity and just cause them to die instantly. So beware. If there are no invisible units then the kitties will attack a particular frame, maybe a "tank" frame or a support or a damage dealer, I'm not sure. But they will screw someone over. The Hyekka Master is one of the few units that can really "attack" aggressively as a Leader Unit without risking her defense due to the use of her kitties, so they WILL go ham on you and yours. Maybe the kitties an also work with Seekers, they can grab the Latchers with their mouth and attach it to a Frame. Oh, also, maybe invisible kitties? 

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Manic

So Manics are sorta invisible and employs an invulnerable phase mechanic which I don't think fits well with the principle of this game mode which is balance. Basically the Manic sneaks up on you to the best of its abilities (while telling you where he is by laughing) then once you deal enough damage, they become invulnerable for a time. Let's change this, first, I don't really know if Manics have a place in a game mode called "Grineer Graduates". (well that's not the exact name, but you get it) But let's say they will be here, then I think a better approach instead of making them invulnerable is making them really quick as their health drops. Like, really quick, ninja quick. THEN then employ decoys! oooooohh, we're having fun now! They get illusion decoys and get quicker as they lose health. As usual they go on top of you, while they are doing this, a Trooper is going near you so when the Manic gets off of you, you say hello to a shotgun.

Leader Behavior:

Maybe let's not make this into a Leader Unit? Kinda fits his whole theme I think?

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Napalm

I think they behave like Bombards so they should be excluded here because they add nothing to the table. You might have different ideas though.

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Nox

Ohhhhhhh, Nox. Nox AKA Really Tough Basterd. Again, it's already a tough unit, we should simply make him smarter. One, he should also be able to ram stuff, the dude is buff af. Then he can "call" other units onto him, he is tough so he will shoot the Tennos with his toxic gun and the other units fall in behind him using him as shield before they get close to the Tennos and wreak havoc. Will the Tennos concentrate fire on him and make the enemy (maybe) retreat? Will they focus on the Grunt units and kill them one by one or will they break formation and submit to disarray and lose?

 

Leader Behavior:

Maybe this turd will be OP if he is able to gain a Leader Aura. He is already tough, getting a bunch of immunity will just make him a trauma in the making. Though of course, one can always go ham.

 

PS

Might be fun if this dude can go "Doomslayer" mode on the Tennos if they break his helmet.

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Grineer Balls (rollers)

So this isn't a heavy unit, much more of an add on. I hate these things, but let's be honest, if these things learn to "flank" you and sneak up on you, you will have a really bad time. You are aiming down your sights then this thing breaks your team's rhythm and all they have to change is that his guy goes behind your team.

 

 

 

The principle behind this game mode/map is very simple, balance. The mechanics that apply to the general game does not apply here. You cannot one shot most enemies (unless with a sniper), they cannot one shot you. You will be punished for leaving your group carelessly. The Grineer have been fighting Tenno and in these Faction have they instilled all their knowledge fighting Warframes. You are the interlopers and you have invaded a military fort, of course they will screw you, that's how it's supposed to go. They have the numbers, now they also have the intellect and they will deal with you with no mercy. They are the elites, they know EVERYTHING about you and yours.

You have entered their territory and you will pay for every inch.

 

PS

Spoiler

This won't affect the rest of the game, yes this will render a lot of mods effectively nerfed but this game mode is for people looking for skill and challenge. I think most veterans will enjoy this while the "nerfing" of mods will also place less emphasis on them so new players can also come and play. The point of this game is to "kill" min-maxing to a certain extent by having the enemies learn and use tactics and even develop new ones. Speed runners will find it impossible to "run" to the end, because the enemies are employing bottlenecks rather than having a door that two people have to push. 

I have already suggested this before and I hope to keep suggesting it until it gains traction, I think there is real merit in a game mode (not necessarily this and not necessarily mine) that focuses on skill without "artificially" escalating difficulty by making enemies bullet sponges. Yes there will be limitations, your mods will work differently, the enemies will have different resistances, but that is only with this game mode which I really believe a lot of players will find refreshing. It's fun to shoot a lot of stuff, you can do that in survival, Mot survival if you have a set of really thick and hairy balls. But you can also play this and not get one shotted by a level 100 Bombard. Where your 4th ability can still do damage instead of tickling enemies but not enough damage that it will be press 4 to win. 

 

Edited by nokinoks
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6 minutes ago, (XB1)Flipyap2 said:

I really want this to happen.

I also want this or at least a similar type/experience. I really do believe that I'm not the only one who wants something like this where a lot of skill is involved not just in your ship while you are modding but also in-game when you are made to NEED to be aware of your surrounding and have skill in general.

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3 minutes ago, nokinoks said:

I also want this or at least a similar type/experience. I really do believe that I'm not the only one who wants something like this where a lot of skill is involved not just in your ship while you are modding but also in-game when you are made to NEED to be aware of your surrounding and have skill in general.

If this happens, DE will probably not make it it’s own mode because of how much time it would take.

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Just now, (XB1)Flipyap2 said:

If this happens, DE will probably not make it it’s own mode because of how much time it would take.

A lot of people won't like that I think if this gets deployed to the rest of the game, though they can make it into a "new" solar system where the mode is like this. Or maybe in certain maps. I agree with a lot of people that making the enemies smarter will not be that effective in changing the game experience if you can just press 4 with equinox and kill everything so it needs to be on particular maps or its own game mode. At least that's how I think it can be developed that will make it effective.

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2 hours ago, nokinoks said:

You cannot one shot most enemies (unless with a sniper), they cannot one shot you.

Ok, you failed to explain how this would be achieved, but fine, I'll assume you mean some sort of general damamge decrease across the board.

The thing is this does nothing at all to achieve more balance, it just makes killing enemies less fun.

Because if you think the game would be balanced just due to no oneshots, then I don't know what to tell you.

Oh, wait, I know: [laughs in Valkyr]. I'm just gonna sit over there completely immortal, even more so, considering you decreased all damage dealt by enemies (I think that's what you want?).

2 hours ago, nokinoks said:

Sometimes they lie in ambush

Oh, you mean like they do it now? All that does is gives me a giant red target on the minimap to say hello to. Animal Instinct is pretty cool, huh?

 

And if your ai "improvements" are going to end on "this guy zigzags towards you giving you more time to kill him", then you might as well just play the game as is. Nothing's going to change. You try to be super cautious and say "It's not gonna affect the rest of the game, it's gonna be it's own mode", that's even worse, because it would make this idea even more irrelevant.

 

All in all, you dislike Saryn/Resonating Quake Banshee, it's ok, most people do. Getting a squad of friends that don't play fotm stuff all the time can go a long way.  Keep in mind I wouldn't mind making enemies somewhat more difficult sometimes, however these changes you are proposing are so cosmetic, they would have no impact whatsoever (unless you are a newbie that just started the game and doesn't have maxed out gear, then it would be a terrible, grindy (as in, lots of bulletsponges everywhere) experience).

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2 hours ago, HugintheCrow said:

Ok, you failed to explain how this would be achieved, but fine, I'll assume you mean some sort of general damamge decrease across the board.

The thing is this does nothing at all to achieve more balance, it just makes killing enemies less fun.

Because if you think the game would be balanced just due to no oneshots, then I don't know what to tell you.

Oh, wait, I know: [laughs in Valkyr]. I'm just gonna sit over there completely immortal, even more so, considering you decreased all damage dealt by enemies (I think that's what you want?).

Oh, you mean like they do it now? All that does is gives me a giant red target on the minimap to say hello to. Animal Instinct is pretty cool, huh?

 

And if your ai "improvements" are going to end on "this guy zigzags towards you giving you more time to kill him", then you might as well just play the game as is. Nothing's going to change. You try to be super cautious and say "It's not gonna affect the rest of the game, it's gonna be it's own mode", that's even worse, because it would make this idea even more irrelevant.

 

All in all, you dislike Saryn/Resonating Quake Banshee, it's ok, most people do. Getting a squad of friends that don't play fotm stuff all the time can go a long way.  Keep in mind I wouldn't mind making enemies somewhat more difficult sometimes, however these changes you are proposing are so cosmetic, they would have no impact whatsoever (unless you are a newbie that just started the game and doesn't have maxed out gear, then it would be a terrible, grindy (as in, lots of bulletsponges everywhere) experience).

I don't mind Saryn or Banshee or any nuker gameplay, I think they're great! It's not my play style but I do have nuker setups as well (but I use Equinox because I don't have Saryn Prime and I use Banshee focusing on melee)

I understand that you have a preconception this won't work because of how Warframe currently works and if you paste an improved AI on current Warframe you would be absolutely right! Hey, I don't disagree with you. If this is implemented on the current system, this will be a joke, I can just throw a mallet with Octavia and make ANY formation stupid. That's why I think this should be its own game mode with its own map and "set of rules". Now how big an investment this would be, I do not know, but I do know that the challenge this could bring if done right will be great. 

Regarding damage capping, we all know that scaling is bad but we make do. The "no one shot" idea is an idea regarding a direction of sorts towards a more well executed scaling because I do truly believe that scaling needs to be dealt with. Now in the context of this game mode however, the devs can deal with it more freely since it won't affect the current meta for the rest of the game. 

An apparent problem with "damage capping" or anything to do with "no one shot kills" is that, as you have mentioned, it makes killing less fun. I also agree with you to a certain extent. Though I would like to point out that one, it's not going to be implemented through out the game and two, killing enemies will be harder and that can be its own satisfaction as well. The method will be different but again, this is its own game mode. 

You have also mentioned that ambush means nothing due to certain mods, that's why I mentioned that a lot of mods will effectively be nerfed or not work the same way. In any case, maybe some enemy units won't show up in the map or maybe they do show up and thus you can prepare for the ambush or maybe they show up and that's actually a trap. I don't know if this is possible or if this is a worthwhile investment for the devs, but I do want a game mode that is very dependent on team strategy and skill. 

All in all, thank you for taking the time to read my post 🙂 I still believe that there is merit in a game mode that focuses on skill and communication. This idea might not be a perfect fit but as a community, we can refine any idea until it comes to fruition. 

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