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Mag 9.8: Feedback Thread

[DE]Megan

By [DE]Megan,
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Kesella

Kesella

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I did not know that Rhino Stomp ignored armor, that bit of info is not listed in the wiki.  I just looked at the tradeoff of the extra 200 damage Crush has vs a extra ~5 second stun.  The armor ignoring damage does tip the scales.  The cast animation never bothered me as Crush usually gets everything in the room and unless I am soloing stragglers are rarely an issue.  I also was switching back and forth between the Mag and Rhino page and noticed the range difference.  Increasing Crush's range to 20-25m should help making sure that you are not interrupted I think.  If we wanted perfect balance between the two similar abilities an extra effect on Crush might not be unreasonable to counter Rhino's ignore armor.  I was always a fan of the "throw away" idea for the end of Crush instead of just letting them drop, though debuff may be the easier idea.

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Preanette

Preanette

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I did not know that Rhino Stomp ignored armor, that bit of info is not listed in the wiki.  I just looked at the tradeoff of the extra 200 damage Crush has vs a extra ~5 second stun.  The armor ignoring damage does tip the scales.  The cast animation never bothered me as Crush usually gets everything in the room and unless I am soloing stragglers are rarely an issue.  I also was switching back and forth between the Mag and Rhino page and noticed the range difference.  Increasing Crush's range to 20-25m should help making sure that you are not interrupted I think.  If we wanted perfect balance between the two similar abilities an extra effect on Crush might not be unreasonable to counter Rhino's ignore armor.  I was always a fan of the "throw away" idea for the end of Crush instead of just letting them drop, though debuff may be the easier idea.

=(. But if crush was throw away, I would still not use it. My basic usage of mag is to pull enemies close and attack them for high DPS. 

 

Suppose I'm in danger, I wouldn't want my enemies to be in a wider circle around me, esp when grineer and corpus AI allows them to shoot at you accurately at long range.

 

If crush were to gather them in a bunch or throw them in the direction mag faces, then I can better plan an escape route.

 

But then again, why should crush be an emergency skill? Giving it a debuff (like nekros' armor debuff) would be good and still be balanced or slightly inferior as compared to Rhino's stomp.

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Fulmir

Fulmir

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Yeah, I know it's a bug. Even if the bug was removed, crush ragdolling enemies still gives it usage over pull, in that ragdoll keeps enemies on the ground longer.

 

So let's say with Pull V2 I pull a group of enemies, and they quickly begin getting up (not pull V2 does not allow knockdown after the first pull). I can then use crush to extend the time they stay as a pile in front of me and continue firing for maximum DPS. Some synergy there.

 

So because of this I wouldn't want crush to throw enemies away, but make them stay at the spot they were from.

 

Not letting you repeatedly knock things down just seems silly, especially at higher levels when you're going to need repeat CC to keep from being overwhelmed on high level Survival and Defense missions.

 

I did not know that Rhino Stomp ignored armor, that bit of info is not listed in the wiki.  I just looked at the tradeoff of the extra 200 damage Crush has vs a extra ~5 second stun.  The armor ignoring damage does tip the scales.  The cast animation never bothered me as Crush usually gets everything in the room and unless I am soloing stragglers are rarely an issue.  I also was switching back and forth between the Mag and Rhino page and noticed the range difference.  Increasing Crush's range to 20-25m should help making sure that you are not interrupted I think.  If we wanted perfect balance between the two similar abilities an extra effect on Crush might not be unreasonable to counter Rhino's ignore armor.  I was always a fan of the "throw away" idea for the end of Crush instead of just letting them drop, though debuff may be the easier idea.

 

I just had someone test in-game, Stomp does not ignore armor. They reported a 74 on some mid-level Grineer (with what I'm assuming was an un-upgraded Stomp).

 

=(. But if crush was throw away, I would still not use it. My basic usage of mag is to pull enemies close and attack them for high DPS. 

 

Suppose I'm in danger, I wouldn't want my enemies to be in a wider circle around me, esp when grineer and corpus AI allows them to shoot at you accurately at long range.

 

If crush were to gather them in a bunch or throw them in the direction mag faces, then I can better plan an escape route.

 

But then again, why should crush be an emergency skill? Giving it a debuff (like nekros' armor debuff) would be good and still be balanced or slightly inferior as compared to Rhino's stomp.

What about, say, throwing them up into the air then?

 

I'm hesitant to have them hang in the air since that's sort of Rhino's thing and identical skills are... kind of bad in general. These frames are supposed to feel unique from each other, so having their abilities converge is a bad idea.

Edited by Fulmir
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PsycloneM

PsycloneM

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Posted (edited)
While I agree that Crush is somewhat lackluster at the moment it interacts differently than Stomp and is a slightly more powerful disable since it actively Stuns enemies as opposed Rhino's slow effect which is arguably less powerful since it's not an active stun.

 

I disagree.

 

For one, Rhino Stomp has a larger AoE. The disable on Rhino Stomp not only lasts longer, it puts enemies in near-stasis. With Rhino Stomp's fast casting animation, I can immediately go to work on those who have been greatly slowed by the effect. I'm not sure how you are defining an active stun, but enemies that are slowed cannot shoot me; they are effectively disabled for the duration, and are near-motionless (making them easy targets for me and my teammates). Compare that to Crush, where Mag performs her animation for roughly half of the disable's duration. I can only capitalize on my disable when the enemies are beginning to stand. Not only that, enemies are in motion throughout the entire disable: either they're being wrapped up into a ball and dropped to the ground, or they're in the process of standing. From a teammate's perspective, shooting the weak spots on a moving target is more difficult than shooting the weak spots on a target that's nearly stationary.

 

I just had someone test in-game, Stomp does not ignore armor. They reported a 74 on some mid-level Grineer (with what I'm assuming was an un-upgraded Stomp).

 

74 sounds like the affinity that was earned from killing the mid-level Grineer. Rhino Stomp does ignore armor. I wouldn't make a claim about an ability mechanic without testing it beforehand:

 

http://i.imgur.com/IZdS5ey.jpg'>Click for reference

 

With Focus equipped, that's 800 x 1.3 = 1040.

Edited by PsycloneM
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Fulmir

Fulmir

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I disagree.

 

For one, Rhino Stomp has a larger AoE. The disable on Rhino Stomp not only lasts longer, it puts enemies in near-stasis. With Rhino Stomp's fast casting animation, I can immediately go to work on those who have been greatly slowed by the effect. I'm not sure how you are defining an active stun, but enemies that are slowed cannot shoot me; they are effectively disabled for the duration, and are near-motionless (making them easy targets for me and my teammates). Compare that to Crush, where Mag performs her animation for roughly half of the disable's duration. I can only capitalize on my disable when the enemies are beginning to stand. Not only that, enemies are in motion throughout the entire disable: either they're being wrapped up into a ball and dropped to the ground, or they're in the process of standing. From a teammate's perspective, shooting the weak spots on a moving target is more difficult than shooting the weak spots on a target that's nearly stationary.

 

I did say arguably for a reason. Rhino's stomp is better against some enemies but won't cancel certain attacks that Mag's stun, lift, knockdown combo will cancel.

 

From a balance perspective the range and short duration are somewhat more of a concern but at least on the first count you can yoink enemies in close with Pull before following up with Crush so the range is mostly moot if you're good with the ability combo. The damage and lack of utility compared to Pull is more of a concern, I'm just a little concerned about escalating power-curves when people are already talking about boredom at the high end of things.

 

Being able to hit god-tier and aimlessly slaughter mooks can be fun in a single-player game but in general games of any sort, and especially MMOs need to maintain challenging gameplay up through the end-game or they get boring rather quickly.

 

74 sounds like the affinity that was earned from killing the mid-level Grineer. Rhino Stomp does ignore armor. I wouldn't make a claim about an ability mechanic without testing it beforehand:

 

Click for reference

 

With Focus equipped, that's 800 x 1.3 = 1040.

 

I stand corrected. I'd have tested myself but I don't own Rhino so I had to resort to asking around for someone to test for me in chat. Amusingly he said he didn't really care about the damage on the ability and was only interested in the disable.

Overall I'm becoming somewhat concerned with ability scaling and damage here and the general power-level/power-creep in abilities. That's a lot of damage and some VERY strong and long duration CC. I can't think of anything you could do with Mag's Crush to compare to that without being six different flavors of over-powered.

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Fulmir

Fulmir

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Posted

I like Mags new pull. I use it for CC to help downed players. Plus the random tossing is fun to watch!

 

I actually just saved our entire run by suicide charging out of a pipe on the Orokin Reactor alert that's up right now.

We were camped in with a Rocket Launcher at the end of the pipe and everyone kept going up and down, had to burn a Revive, charged out of the pipe and started strategically spamming Pull on the enemies. Didn't kill anything but kept the incoming fire distracted long enough for the other three to get up and stabilize. Had to burn a second revive doing it but given that I was hilariously under-powered for the mission I'll take it!

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ninosan

ninosan

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Posted (edited)

I actually just saved our entire run by suicide charging out of a pipe on the Orokin Reactor alert that's up right now.

We were camped in with a Rocket Launcher at the end of the pipe and everyone kept going up and down, had to burn a Revive, charged out of the pipe and started strategically spamming Pull on the enemies. Didn't kill anything but kept the incoming fire distracted long enough for the other three to get up and stabilize. Had to burn a second revive doing it but given that I was hilariously under-powered for the mission I'll take it!

well strategic helps most of the time .Even on the v2. 

But compared to v2, in game like survival or defense (or simply alot of enemy) , v3 does not synergy with other frames or weapon. 

Simply pull and scatter them all over the place and make them invincible even ...

V2, still does the pull, group them together, and make it easy for other frame to take advantages of that : skill or simply shooting.

 

that pipe situation ?? its called spamming, prolly some timing and some luck that they tumble on the right spot and what not ...!

 

and you want strategic ??? At some point I pulled groups of enemy from 3 rooms away with v2. 

V3 ??? good luck ... hopefully those enemy dont get stuck on the ceiling or fall on your friends head ...

 

@Tenn00b

gimme my 1:38 mins back T_T

Edited by ninosan
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Fl4m3Ph03n1x

Fl4m3Ph03n1x

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Am I the only guy that actually preferred the second iteration of Mag's pull instead of this one?

 

It is not just because it is ridiculously overpowered (I mean, people just stopped using the ultimate because using the 1st skill repeatedly deals more damage overall) it is also because now I simply cannot pull enemies towards my location and I cannot concentrate them in a single spot. Now they just fly up and down like $&*&*#(%& rag dolls. What's the point of having rag dolls flying around ?

 

The utility of the spell is the reason why it was so special ... now I have no reason to play Mag at all: if I want craps loads of damage I have better frames...

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Kesella

Kesella

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Am I the only guy that actually preferred the second iteration of Mag's pull instead of this one?

 

It is not just because it is ridiculously overpowered (I mean, people just stopped using the ultimate because using the 1st skill repeatedly deals more damage overall) it is also because now I simply cannot pull enemies towards my location and I cannot concentrate them in a single spot. Now they just fly up and down like $&*&*#(%& rag dolls. What's the point of having rag dolls flying around ?

 

The utility of the spell is the reason why it was so special ... now I have no reason to play Mag at all: if I want craps loads of damage I have better frames...

 

 

Actually it seems the majority of Mag players preferred Pull V2.  So much so that DE took notice and it would seem that we might get it back.

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Preanette

Preanette

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I wonder...if we get pull V2 back and combine it with Wyrm's new crowd dispersion. 

 

Will the enemies be knockdown longer??

 

While the crazy dmg bug lasts, can we ignis the bunch to death?

 

I can see myself with an ice modded rifle going Pull > shoot > Wyrm ragdolls > enemies slow to get up > continue shooting > enemies got up > use crush > enemies are knocked down again > continue shooting >Wyrm ragdolls = profit!

 

Could make for some unforgiving CC.

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