Ember 9.8: Feedback Thread

[Kinethia]

Regardless, all points claiming Ember is fine as is are poorly researched for the following reason, which I have mentioned before:

Right now:

- Saryn does better DoT than Ember, with every ability other than Molt.

- Her ult also adds crowd control to that.

- She is about as durable as overheated Ember without needing to spend energy for it, AND has an escape ability.

- With the Hemlock helmet, she moves faster too.

 

Everything ember can possibly do, another warframe does better. Period. Something has to change.

 

I like this idea (the agile overheat). Hopefully something like this happens. We need more diverse frames

 

*smiles* Thank you very much. I also would really like to see a bit more mechanical variety and especially incomparables in frame design. Makes balance issues subtler. *nods*

 

EDIT:

 

For those saying Ember is a one trick pony... No. She never was up till now..

 

We were actually only talking about after the change when we said that, I think. Also, Whoo! Time-travelling reply!

Edited September 8, 2013 by Kinethia

[LittleReshiram]

For those saying Ember is a one trick pony... No. She never was up till now.

This radical changes are too much from her usual set, and doesn't really come with the needed fix for her other abilities.

This left us with weak, overall unplayable, one-trick-dead horse that she wasn't supposed to be.

And, really. This change is because of a "vision" from one person.

That'll burn some people's fuse.

What we need is a revert to the old Overheat, and throw Fireball out of the skill-set. She deserved something better.

[LittleReshiram]

Something that ISN'T a half-hearted change like this. Something that STILL help her survivability reasonably high, even with her USELESS AS HELL stats.

[Mak_Gohae]

As CloudPies said, that is only the case if the DoT has range. Hugging ancients to deal more than one DoT at once is dangerous. Hugging Grineer or corpus is downright suicidal. In an open area, high level grineer can kill me before I get close enough to do more than a few ticks of damage even with World on Fire, which is her longest range DoT. In order to be playable, Ember needs to be survivable enough to:

- Get within DoT range of the enemy

- Damage the enemy with the DoT

- Get into cover again afterwards without dying in the process

That's not always possible anymore.

 

Ember's ult, unlike Saryn's, requires her to stay close to the enemy for the full duration to do maximum damage. That is guaranteed death at high-level play.

 

For ancients get a melee weapons that hits multiple enemies.

For anything else equip Shade and run at the enemy and cast your powers but dont shoot until you are in a good position. These are the easiest ways to deal with these examples.

 

Most frames have multiple tricks, but only one or two are good. That is a very important difference. Bounce does something different than Vauban's other abilities. Super jump is also quite unique. They suck, but at least players occasionally slot them for giggles and variety. Ember's abilities all feel almost identical. It would be like Excaliber's abilities being 1 - Slash dash, 2 - Slash hop, 3 - Slash dash in a circle, 4 - Slash dash in a circle, and then everything inside it.

 

Yes, 'slash dash in a circle and then everything inside it' is basically radial javelin, but at least two of the abilities do something other than "another slash dash".

 

Ember is a frame that dumps a bunch of damage just like Vauban dumps a bunch of CCs.

If you want to play a frames that has extra tricks you should play another frame.

 

 

Mak, if we're not suppose to be getting hit, then rework the abilities so we don't have to be next to the enemies with low health, low shields and average speed. That is all. Nerf the damage reduction, sure, but put something else in for the other skills. Increased speed with WoF; guaranteed knock down with Fire Blast; etc.

 

How about you use your imagination and combine some mods and outsmart the enemy instead of asking for an easy button?

 

Our problem was, it wasn't the case till the latest patch. So our feedback is: Stop with the 1 trick pony nonsense.

 

Huh? They only thing that was done is lower the damage resistance in one ability and all of a sudden everything changed?

[Kinethia]

Ember is a frame that dumps a bunch of damage just like Vauban dumps a bunch of CCs.

If you want to play a frames that has extra tricks you should play another frame.

 

Regardless, all points claiming Ember is fine as is are poorly researched for the following reason, which I have mentioned before:

Right now:

- Saryn does better DoT than Ember, with every ability other than Molt.

- Her ult also adds crowd control to that.

- She is about as durable as overheated Ember without needing to spend energy for it, AND has an escape ability.

- With the Hemlock helmet, she moves faster too.

 

Everything ember can possibly do, another warframe does better. Period. Something has to change.

 

That's my answer.

 

Huh? They only thing that was done is lower the damage resistance in one ability and all of a sudden everything changed?

 

Please reread the original post by the development team. They turned a defensive ability into an offensive one.

 

EDIT: Also, I am NOT complaining about Saryn being powerful. But Saryn and Ember are my two mains, so I noticed the overlap almost immediately.

 

Another EDIT:

For ancients get a melee weapons that hits multiple enemies.

For anything else equip Shade and run at the enemy and cast your powers but dont shoot until you are in a good position. These are the easiest ways to deal with these examples.

 

If Ember needs invisibility to use her powers, she should just have invisibility as an ability. You shouldn't need a specific weapon or sentinal to use a frame effectively. That was the role Overheat filled until the change. It could have been less crazy about it, but changing it into another offensive power left a definite void. One which even you admit sometimes needs something to fill it.

Edited September 8, 2013 by Kinethia

[CloudPies]

How about you use your imagination and combine some mods and outsmart the enemy instead of asking for an easy button?

Are you so bored of WF you're trolling?

Asking for speed buff isn't asking for an easy button. Nova is the definition of easy button, something with u-t-i-l-i-t-y. Why is the new mag pull awesome? It's HILARIOUS.

[WSkD]

I will add my voice to this thread, because I am not happy with Ember right now.

Sadly I will have to wait for a complete comment, because the new armour system is not implemented until a further update; making this thread somewhat useless. It is a bit like a farce.... 

Still, I think the powers are poorly changed and the people responsible could have done better.

[Mak_Gohae]

Please reread the original post by the development team. They turned a defensive ability into an offensive one.

 

 

It still has damage reduction but it was just lowered. According to wiki it's 52% with max focus.

So i ask again, one power toned down and all of a sudden everything completely changes?

 

EDIT: Also, I am NOT complaining about Saryn being powerful. But Saryn and Ember are my two mains, so I noticed the overlap almost immediately.

 

If you cant bring yourself to play one frame because of the delivery system of another is better in your eyes then go play that frame. There is little else anything can be done. One frame is not going to be turned into the exact version of another.

 

Another EDIT:

 

If ember needs invisibility to use her powers, she should just have invisibility as an ability. You shouldn't need a specific weapon or sentinal to use a frame effectively.

 

She doesnt need invisibility, i was just offering an easy tip if you dont have the ability to maneuver around the field without dying.

 

Are you so bored of WF you're trolling?

 

 

Opinion different than yours= trolling. Got it

 

Asking for speed buff isn't asking for an easy button. Nova is the definition of easy button, something with u-t-i-l-i-t-y. Why is the new mag pull awesome? It's HILARIOUS.

 

Put on a rush mod.

Frames are constantly being adjusted. At this point why do people not understand that?

You really think Nova is not going to be touched?

[Holynight6]

It still has damage reduction but it was just lowered. According to wiki it's 52% with max focus.

So i ask again, one power toned down and all of a sudden everything completely changes?

 

When suddenly you're taking 5 times (we did the math if you read earlier in the feedback) more damage than the previous day, then yes, everything changes.

 

Imagine if they set Rhino's armor to 10. He'd be taking on average between 3-4 times more health damage than before. Imagine if that also applied to his shields. Now you're starting to see what the big deal is.

Edited September 8, 2013 by Holynight6

[Mak_Gohae]

When suddenly you're taking 5x (we did the math if you read earlier in the feedback) more damage than the previous day, then yes, everything changes.

 

How did everything change?

[CloudPies]

Look Mak, we just don't want:

• 25 energy - single target DoT
• 50 energy - close range DoT
• 75 energy - stationary DoT
• 100 energy - mobile DoT

Okay? Feedback is pretty much: give us something to spice it up, and no 40% damage reduction isn't viable.

[Holynight6]

How did everything change?

 

We took 5.3 times more damage than before and died. Ember was fairly balanced before the update with Overheats DR.

Now they've added 100 more damage to all her abilities and made her 5.3 times squishier. Does that seem like a fair trade?

[Kinethia]

How did everything change?

 

*tilts head in curiosity* You sound like a huge fan of the new Ember design. If that is true and you are really enjoying playing her, you should say so. Very few poeple on this thread have, and the devs need both positive and negative feedback to make clear decisions. *nods* And if so, please talk more about what you do really enjoy about her now. That way maybe we can learn to enjoy her too.

 

If you don't, then please consider the possiblity that the new Ember is less fun to use overall than the old one, and as this is a game, that is a problem. As evidence, the response on this thread has been much more negative overall than in any of the other feedback threads, including Vauban's, and while almost all of the people complaining in the Vauban thread simply said "put it back" Or "make it better", a significant number of people on this thread are open to much more varied alternatives to the original ability.

 

If you cant bring yourself to play one frame because of the delivery system of another is better in your eyes then go play that frame. There is little else anything can be done. One frame is not going to be turned into the exact version of another.

 

You have it backwards. Before the change, they felt somewhat different (though admittedly not as much as I would like), and I could not honestly say that one was better than the other.

 

Now they feel almost exactly the same, except Saryn is just better. That isn't something I just 'felt' while playing. I did the math. Extensively.

Edited September 8, 2013 by Kinethia

[shr0ud]

DE, if you need any more incentive to fix Ember aside from the things already said in this thread, just think of all the people, ALL the people, who spent Forma (one, two, three Forma?) on Ember because it was a great frame and they really liked it, that is before this 'buff' came along and all the Ember players I've talked to pretty much don't want to play anymore.

[Mak_Gohae]

Look Mak, we just don't want:

• 25 energy - single target DoT
• 50 energy - close range DoT
• 75 energy - stationary DoT
• 100 energy - mobile DoT

Okay? Feedback is pretty much: give us something to spice it up, and no 40% damage reduction isn't viable.

 

 

If you dont like her theme then dont play her.

There are enough frames that just have two attack powers and 2 utility powers for you to enjoy.

Rhino, another themed frame, lost his ..... why do you folks NEED another frame to play the same? 

 

 

We took 5.3 times more damage than before and died. Ember was fairly balanced before the update with Overheats DR.

Now they've added 100 more damage to all her abilities and made her 5.3 times squishier. Does that seem like a fair trade?

 

That's one thing, that's not everything.

 

*tilts head in curiosity* You sound like a huge fan of the new Ember design. If that is true and you are really enjoying playing her, you should say so. Very few poeple on this thread have, and the devs need both positive and negative feedback to make clear decisions. *nods* And if so, please talk more about what you do really enjoy about her now. That way maybe we can learn to enjoy her too.

 

My first post here mentions how she went back to her original play style and how she was THE frame that taught me to actually run and gun in this game. On top of that i have mentioned some tips to help people who dont play her like that.

 

So if you actually read some of the stuff i posted on this thread you wouldn't need all that nodding.

 

 

If you don't, then please consider the possiblity that the new Ember is less fun to use overall than the old one, and as this is a game, that is a problem. As evidence, the response on this thread has been much more negative overall than in any of the other feedback threads, including Vauban's, and while almost all of the people complaining in the Vauban thread simply said "put it back" Or "make it better", a significant number of people on this thread are open to much more varied alternatives to the original ability.

 

 

You have it backwards. Before the change, they felt somewhat different (though admittedly not as much as I would like), and I could not honestly say that one was better than the other.

 

Now they feel almost exactly the same, except Saryn is just better. That isn't something I just 'felt' while playing. I did the math. Extensively.

 

This thread isnt different than any of the others. It's the same crying over one power, is the same, "This one power was changed, now the frame is rooined."  If your view of a frame totally changed because one power was adjusted while ignoring the others you dont know anything about the frame.  This is exactly the same thing that happened with Rhino and now is happening with Vauban, the frame STILL fits in her previous role but you need to adjust a little bit to keep it going and no.... you folks dont want to tweak your stuff one single inch. You just want it back and that's it, there is no discussion.

[Lysander26]

After having Forma'd my Ember and run some missions, I'd like to give my feedback

First is that with all of Ember's abilities requiring you to be in the literal middle of the action, she needs some concession to being in such a position. Overheat was a good option, but if that's not the direction you want to take the frame, fine. Increased shields or run speed could be a good way to limit the shear exposure that Ember is placed in. I'd really like to see Ember be as fast as Nova, since memetically Fire is fast! Honestly, I'm sure a lot of people are surprised when they first use Ember at her lack of speed. It's not like she's weighed down by Armor or anything like that.

Also the cast time on World on Fire is a literal killer. I'm surrounded by enemies should be the most ideal time to use a radial damage power, not the one most likely to get you killed. Also it's damage is very underwhelming against the level 50 Grinner of Kiste I was running against. Maybe this will be fixed but as a caster eps frame she really pales against her sisters Saryn and Nova, even Mag now that she has an awesome 25 energy skill in Pull. While this will probably be fixed in damage 2.0, it would be nice for the glass cannon to actually be a cannon and not just glass!

[CloudPies]

If you dont like her theme then dont play her.

There are enough frames that just have two attack powers and 2 utility powers for you to enjoy.

Rhino, another themed frame, lost his ..... why do you folks NEED another frame to play the same?

Rhino was fixed: fist and foot was combined, and a damage buff skill was added, he was also given an alt helm that covered his slow speed. It would be good if something like that can be done for Ember.

I'm not sure what you're trying to convince us, she's a once trick pony and you suckers better like it? What we're gunning for is more diversity for her abilities.

If you like her now, thats great, I'm sure DE can use the encouragement. But could you stop telling everyone else 'if you don't like it, GTFO'? Thanks.

And we're posting on this thread because:

Suggestions and feedback welcome.

[Kinethia]

My first post here mentions how she went back to her original play style and how she was THE frame that taught me to actually run and gun in this game. On top of that i have mentioned some tips to help people who dont play her like that.

 

So if you actually read some of the stuff i posted on this thread you wouldn't need all that nodding.

 

 

*blinks* Assuming she is the same now as she was then is a rather strong assertion if you have not played her since the change, and you still have not answered that question. Also, I didn't ask what you learned by playing her, I asked if you enjoy playing her as she is now, as much or more than the other frames. Because if NO-ONE answers yes to that question, there is still a problem that needs fixing.

 

EDIT: Also, from your impression of me and others here, I find it unlikely that you have read every single post all the people you are debating with have made and can put every post to the correct name, so please do not expect others to have done so with your own. I often clarify and repeat myself for exactly that reason. It's admittedly a bit tedious, but it is a practical neccessity of the context.

Edited September 8, 2013 by Kinethia

[Holynight6]

If you dont like her theme then dont play her.

There are enough frames that just have two attack powers and 2 utility powers for you to enjoy.

Rhino, another themed frame, lost his ..... why do you folks NEED another frame to play the same? 

 

 Variety is the spice of life, and whatnot. But seriously, it's not my job to like the game. It's the games job to make me like it. Currently it's doing the opposite. It's taking the bits I found fun and put time and money in to, and ruining them. It's just poor design. DE apparently failed to identify the role Ember plays in the community and how she plays, and now they're suffering for it. These 16 pages of "you #*($%%@ up" with yourself the only person defending the changes, ought to be a pretty good indication of that.

 

That's one thing, that's not everything.

 

If the devs are to be believed, damage is everything for Ember. So yeah, I'm going to be stubborn and say it's everything.

 

---

 

What we needed were fixes, what we got were nerfs and we still need the same things fixed.

 

EDIT: Oh look, it's 17 pages now.

Edited September 8, 2013 by Holynight6

[Mak_Gohae]

Rhino was fixed: fist and foot was combined, and a damage buff skill was added, he was also given an alt helm that covered his slow speed. It would be good if something like that can be done for Ember.

 

 

Rhino was wrecked because DE gave into the crying.

Rhino had 3 different types of CC for different occasions and now he is they usual 2 attack 2 utility frame which is very sad.

 

I'm not sure what you're trying to convince us, she's a once trick pony and you suckers better like it? What we're gunning for is more diversity for her abilities.

If you like her now, thats great, I'm sure DE can use the encouragement. But could you stop telling everyone else 'if you don't like it, GTFO'? Thanks.

And we're posting on this thread because:

 

No, im telling you to actually use all her powers. Which you are apparently not getting for some unknown reason.

And not i am not going to stop telling you folks that if you cant play her because her resistance was toned down then you need to stop playing her because of what happened with Rhino. We do not need to see another wrecked frame because people REFUSE to use more than one power.

 

 

*blinks* Assuming she is the same now as she was then is a rather strong assertion if you have not played her since the change,

 

I am not assuming this is a fact.

Original Overheat did not have the resistance of the last version, hek, i didnt have the resistance of this version.

Ember was adjusted to play closer to her original form.

 

and you still have not answered that question.

Also, I didn't ask what you learned by playing her, I asked if you enjoy playing her as she is now, as much or more than the other frames. Because if NO-ONE answers yes to that question, there is still a problem that needs fixing.

 

Oh sorry, you still have not read my original post i did not clarify it in that response.

Yes, i like it.

[Phoenix86]

A possible new Overheat rework:

 

Ember overheats herself to a point where standing near her in a 10 meter radius (max lvl) is impossible... all enemies in this radius gets staggered and suffer 200 Fire DoT dmg (max lvl), all melee's Ember attacks deal +100% fire dmg and melt enemy's weapon disarming them, all dmg taken by Ember are reduced by 50% (max lvl) because of the extreme heat melting projectiles and weapons.

[CloudPies]

Rhino was wrecked because DE gave into the crying.

Rhino had 3 different types of CC for different occasions and now he is they usual 2 attack 2 utility frame which is very sad.

How are they different types?? And you don't like 50% damage buff? What is wrong with you...

Okay, I have to stop taking you seriously now... Rhino is on the undisputed god-tier, he is viable in all situations.

No, im telling you to actually use all her powers. Which you are apparently not getting for some unknown reason.

And not i am not going to stop telling you folks that if you cant play her because her resistance was toned down then you need to stop playing her because of what happened with Rhino. We do not need to see another wrecked frame because people REFUSE to use more than one power.

At once? Where any other frame can use one and have the same amount of effectiveness? Do you main an ember right now? Explain why you would pick ember over anything other than volt in her current iteration, please...

[Mak_Gohae]

 Variety is the spice of life, and whatnot. But seriously, it's not my job to like the game. It's the games job to make me like it. Currently it's doing the opposite. It's taking the bits I found fun and put time and money in to, and ruining them. It's just poor design.

 

No, it's the game's job to have a workable concept which is what we have with her.

If we are going to make all frame so people "like them" Loki would have a clone decoy that actually shoot at enemies and never ends, Bastille as a third, and Molecular Prime as a 4th. There are people still complaining that Loki does no damage. At what point does the player have to accept that they do not like the concept and need to move on?

 

DE apparently failed to identify the role Ember plays in the community and how she plays, and now they're suffering for it. These 16 pages of "you #*($%%@ up" with yourself the only person defending the changes, ought to be a pretty good indication of that.

If the devs are to be believed, damage is everything for Ember. So yeah, I'm going to be stubborn and say it's everything.

 

---

 

What we needed were fixes, what we got were nerfs and we still need the same things fixed.

 

EDIT: Oh look, it's 17 pages now.

 

Wha? If this was Volt i would agree but never at any point would anyone be confused about what Ember does.

You do not blame the game for people making their own problems.

And this is nothing but 16 pages of,  "I cant run straight into combat anymore." And nothing else.

[Kinethia]

Oh sorry, you still have not read my original post i did not clarify it in that response.

Yes, i like it.

*nods* Good! Okay, now describe why she is fun for you to play. Give examples, use colourful adjectives. Think of all the stories you can which begin with, "Oh! Oh! This one time..." and end with, "...and it was so much fun!"

 

If you want people to actually understand your point of view, you need to share it with them. You're trying to take people who are unhappy with something and make them happy with it. To do that, you need to share your happiness about the new Ember, not your frustration for those who don't understand why. It's hard for simple onlookers to believe you're really having fun playing her when every post you make makes everyone picture you all grumpy.

 

I know it sounds cheesy, but it's actually how to influence someone's emotions most effectively. All emotional states are contagious, which is part of how we all got so frustrated in the first place.

 

EDIT: And it doesn't matter if I read your initial post or not, everyone here needs to hear your side of the story (especially those who have not and will not go back to read your earlier posts), because any silver lining in this rather cloudy thread needs to be explored and shared as much as possible, if the outcome you want is to be assured. Also, I'm guessing from your comment that you did not read the most recent edit on my last post before this one.

Edited September 8, 2013 by Kinethia

[Ivalician]

Overheat is horrible without the DR, please change it back and fix Fireball and Fire Blast instead.