Ember 9.8: Feedback Thread

[raian78]

just putting this out there, if update 10 does fix some of Ember's low damage problems, and make her more viable, IF, maybe you should have waited to release the revised Ember until update 10 was live?

 

PS

 

Still want oveheat back.

[Kinethia]

just putting this out there, if update 10 does fix some of Ember's low damage problems, and make her more viable, IF, maybe you should have waited to release the revised Ember until update 10 was live?

 

PS

 

Still want oveheat back.

Ember's damage is not the problem, it's her reach. She can neither attack enemies effectively from afar, nor close the gap quickly and escape when things begin to turn sour.

 

If her damage were actually high enough to kill high level enemies faster than they can kill her, she'd be doing way, waay too much damage in comparison to any other frame. They need to implement a different solution if they want to fix this.

 

EDIT & Addendum: To all those who are arguing about whether the old Overheat was overpowered as an ability, the problem is, you're both right. Overheat was clearly overpowered for low to mid level play, and barely working well enough at high level play.

 

For an example, the recent survival event. I was playing my ember on a team of four vs grineer. Two of the others were using Frost, so my team wasn't exactly super squishy.

 

I didn't bother using the snowglobes. I stayed outside, using the huge supply of energy orbs to just keep overheat always active.

 

At 20 minutes in, the grineer had never yet successfully penetrated my shields.

 

Shortly after that, my teammates started dying, about one every 30 seconds or so. I simply kept overheat active, and revived them. I did need to start using cover and snow globes to regenerate my shields, though.

 

About 25 minutes in, they started dropping two or all three at once. And still, I just walked over, picked them up in the middle of a storm of bullets, then retreated back to safety to let my shields recharge.

 

About 28 minutes in, The enemy were finally powerful enough to get through overheat, and I had to start playing more defensively. When teammates died, I wasn't always able to save them in time, and they didn't use revives.

 

At 29 minutes in, I was on my own and genuinely terrified. With the enemy's full attention, I'd die out in the open in just a few seconds at mid-range (far enough away that world on fire couldn't reach any but the closest), with overheat always active. I ran from cover to cover, trying to put as much distance between me and the enemy as I could, while always giving myself somewhere to fall back further as they got too close or flanked, sniping from a distance from cover, and using world on fire to whittle down the health of the small handful of enemies who were well ahead of the pack.

 

At 29:43 the oxygen ran out. I had less than 100 health left and 0 shields at the time.

 

Edit & conclusion: Ideally, Ember should have a survivability option which scales better (not necessarily a tanky one: Range, mobility, escape abilities, and crowd control each can fill this role just as well). This new overheat is clearly not such an option, and no amount of damage reduction will fix the underlying problem: There is a fixed level range where Ember works as intended. Above that, she's a walking corpse, below it, she's immortal. Changing the DR just moves that level range up or down. It doesn't get any bigger.

Edited September 8, 2013 by Kinethia

[Ferriwind]

A few nice fixes and buffs then Overheat gets changed back to a damage ability? She still has weak cc and now she can barely survive casting her close ranged mage abilities. Expecting Overheat or WoF rework.

[Pure]

Ember's damage is not the problem, it's her reach. She can neither attack enemies effectively from afar, nor close the gap quickly and escape when things begin to turn sour.

 

If her damage were actually high enough to kill high level enemies faster than they can kill her, she'd be doing way, waay too much damage in comparison to any other frame. They need to implement a different solution if they want to fix this.

 

EDIT & Addendum: To all those who are arguing about whether the old Overheat was overpowered as an ability, the problem is, you're both right. Overheat was clearly overpowered for low to mid level play, and barely working well enough at high level play.

 

For an example, the recent survival event. I was playing my ember on a team of four vs grineer. Two of the others were using Frost, so my team wasn't exactly super squishy.

 

I didn't bother using the snowglobes. I stayed outside, using the huge supply of energy orbs to just keep overheat always active.

 

At 20 minutes in, the grineer had never yet successfully penetrated my shields.

 

Shortly after that, my teammates started dying, about one every 30 seconds or so. I simply kept overheat active, and revived them. I did need to start using cover and snow globes to regenerate my shields, though.

 

About 25 minutes in, they started dropping two or all three at once. And still, I just walked over, picked them up in the middle of a storm of bullets, then retreated back to safety to let my shields recharge.

 

About 28 minutes in, The enemy were finally powerful enough to get through overheat, and I had to start playing more defensively. When teammates died, I wasn't always able to save them in time, and they didn't use revives.

 

At 29 minutes in, I was on my own and genuinely terrified. With the enemy's full attention, I'd die out in the open in just a few seconds at mid-range (far enough away that world on fire couldn't reach any but the closest), with overheat always active. I ran from cover to cover, trying to put as much distance between me and the enemy as I could, while always giving myself somewhere to fall back further as they got too close or flanked, sniping from a distance from cover, and using world on fire to whittle down the health of the small handful of enemies who were well ahead of the pack.

 

At 29:43 the oxygen ran out. I had less than 100 health left and 0 shields at the time.

 

Edit & conclusion: Ideally, Ember should have a survivability option which scales better (not necessarily a tanky one: Range, mobility, escape abilities, and crowd control each can fill this role just as well). This new overheat is clearly not such an option.

 

So you lasted the longest?  Hows that not op?  Put in a trinity, vauban, and then look at the survival of the old 91% reduction gave.  An ember could just perma spam abilities, tank, and damage.

 

If DE is reducing the armor of the enemies doesn't that buff all embers damage?

[CloudPies]

So you lasted the longest?  Hows that not op?  Put in a trinity, vauban, and then look at the survival of the old 91% reduction gave.  An ember could just perma spam abilities, tank, and damage.

 

If DE is reducing the armor of the enemies doesn't that buff all embers damage?

The question is... how does ember plan on dishing out that damage... Her skills require her to be in close range to be in full effect, they also do pretty much the same thing: DoT.

If her tanking abilities are too much, fine. Put in more utility, CC, speed, debuff.

Four versions of WoF is just useless, you don't need 1-3 when you have 4.

[Kinethia]

So you lasted the longest?  Hows that not op?  Put in a trinity, vauban, and then look at the survival of the old 91% reduction gave.  An ember could just perma spam abilities, tank, and damage.

 

If DE is reducing the armor of the enemies doesn't that buff all embers damage?

 

My post began with saying that people who believe overheat was OP are partly (mostly, in fact) correct. However, I'm pretty sure I was the only maxed frame present on that run, as plenty of teams without Ember have survived much longer than 30 minutes. (EDIT: As a note, I've played on one of them. My best survival run against grineer was almost 40 minutes, using a Banshee, and no-one had Ember) Please see below.

 

Yes, since she offered very little to nothing else. It was her saving grace. 

 

As for a better compromise, feel free to read https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/102831-ember-98-feedback-thread/page-10#entry1187273

 

As I said before, no amount of damage reduction will fix the underlying problem: There is a fixed level range where Ember works as intended. Above that, she's a walking corpse, below it, she's immortal. Changing the DR just moves that level range up or down. It doesn't get any bigger, percentage-wise. As overheat was, that level range was near the endgame, at enemies around level 80-120. In a PvE game, this isn't as bad as it could otherwise be. (EDIT: This is because there are still challenges to be found and she doesn't outperform other frames at the highest level content, which is where the hardcore, most competitive players are, and more casual players get to feel invincible on earlier missions, which is fun for them) If the level drops much below that, however, ember simply cannot participate with her abilities in high-level nightmare missions or T3 defense. A significant part of the game lies forever out of her reach, unless she's happy just never using abilities at all and letting her team carry her, which doesn't really feel like playing to me. It certainly isn't fun.

 

EDIT: Added a note, and clarification

Edited September 8, 2013 by Kinethia

[Wolfssenger]

Scott, I want you to try imagining what I'm feeling right now.

 

I spent a full month farming ember parts, to finally create ember. That's a full month of my life dedicated to getting one frame. Then, I scrounge up some cash to get platinum to get a slot for her and potato her. Then I spend 4 forma which I could have much better spent on something else, on her to get her to her full potential. Thursday I leave on a trip after I had gotten her to level 30 for the last time and was planning on using her as my main frame for quite a while. Then, I come back today to play her and realize that all that I did went to waste. You -cannot- take a frame's bread and butter away from it, it does not work. I don't want to hate on you guys because I know you get it a lot, but please be empathetic of how I, and any other Ember users are feeling and at least revert overheat. It was what made Ember an enjoyable frame. Please, please take the communities reactions into consideration and revert at least that.

[Hogfather]

Just did a run with the new Ember. I happy with all the changes but one. Please give disruptor immunity back to Overheat. That is what allowed Ember to run through the endless waves of Infestid. She isn't immune to stagger or knockdown effects while Overheat is active. If she runs by a bunch of infestid runners that explode and stagger her she is very vunlorable to energy sapping which will lead to her death :(

That's the only thing feel needs to be changed back. On the whole great job.

[Terrornaut]

Said it once in this thread before: I don't necessarily want overheat reverted, I just want her kit to make sense and not be redundant.  Even if the armor/damage system changes go in, she will still have major problems.  There is no reason to spam fireball over just shooting something.  Overheat is 4 with a tiny damage radius and some damage reduction so she can move from cover to cover, not wade out in the open.  Fireburst will be worthwhile when the damage is fixed.  4 Needs to be changed.

If she is a damage damage damage damage frame, where is her ability to reliably do damage? Is she meant to kill chargers+runners+leapers and everything else left to the damage frames?  The only way she could outdo Nova was to kill things before Nova got there (WoF killing behind walls).  Now, she does a little bit of damage slowly, and has to get near things and fight around damage zones.

What is this frame supposed to do?

[Mak_Gohae]

Semantics. I see glass cannons as high offense, low defense, which ember is supposedly 'intended' to be, and I assumed anyone reading my post would understand my intent. How the damage is dealt is irrelevent to the glass cannon title, and usually irrelevant from a balance standpoint as well. The only difference between instantaneous damage and DoT is that DoT requires better survivablility to use effectively, which is a part of the problem in how Ember plays now.

 

 

A Dotter doesnt requires better survivability a dotter requires high damaging dots.

One strange thing i have noticed recently when people complain about powers is this weird aversion to casting powers more than one. I really dont know where this comes from and how this conclusion is reached but... Ember has a lot of energy so if you want to stay alive.... cast more than one power at one time. She stays alive by DOTing the crap out of everything. 

[Mimibomber]

So you lasted the longest?  Hows that not op?  Put in a trinity, vauban, and then look at the survival of the old 91% reduction gave.  An ember could just perma spam abilities, tank, and damage.

 

If DE is reducing the armor of the enemies doesn't that buff all embers damage?

that does nothing to their attack power, so what if i can kill them alittle faster if they still can drop me before i get into range to shake and bake them.

[CloudPies]

A Dotter doesnt requires better survivability a dotter requires high damaging dots.

One strange thing i have noticed recently when people complain about powers is this weird aversion to casting powers more than one. I really dont know where this comes from and how this conclusion is reached but... Ember has a lot of energy so if you want to stay alive.... cast more than one power at one time. She stays alive by DOTing the crap out of everything.

She would.... if the DOT is effective at long range. The only one we use is 4. Because we don't need to rub the ancient on the arse for it to deal damage.

1 - SLOW projectile. You won't hit anything unless you're 10 meters away from it.

2 - I'm requires to be basically standing next to a toxic or disrupter (with no protection from either) to do damage.

3 - Pitiful damage, requires one to be in the MIDDLE of an orgy to be effective, with weak shields, low health and average speed.

4 - Yay! Saved up 100 energy and I don't have to touch tonsils to hurt someone!

Ember's current powers are variations of her ultimate. Why waste your energy when you can save up to 100 and deal damage at a safe distance.

[Kinethia]

I don't really get why you replied with this to me? 

 

 

...

 

A better compromise if you must nerf the dmg reduction would be around maybe 70-75% damage reduction (with Focus, or at max rank and Focus not effecting it) and either stagger or knockdown resistance added. The damage it does can stay at the current, be reduced back down to what it was prior or be completely removed and it wouldn't matter because its irrelevant.

 

...

 

It was the first sentence in that paragraph. *soft laugh* Sorry about that, I'm getting kinda twitchy about people just throwing numbers around, and didn't read enough to see the primary point, which was CC resistance. *smiles* I proposed a (admittedly more extreme) alternative to this, for if they really are hard-set on Ember not being tanky, which can be found here, if you're curious:

https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/102831-ember-98-feedback-thread/page-14#entry1193016

 

 

4 - Yay! Saved up 100 energy and I don't have to touch tonsils to hurt someone!

 

World on Fire still has pretty terrible range, compared to most other ults which don't deal CC as well (radial javelin being the only exception, I think), and in fact, most other abilities which aren't utility or tank abilities. It's certainly a lot safer to use than anything else she has now, though. *nods*

Edited September 8, 2013 by Kinethia

[Mak_Gohae]

She would.... if the DOT is effective at long range. The only one we use is 4. Because we don't need to rub the ancient on the arse for it to deal damage.

1 - SLOW projectile. You won't hit anything unless you're 10 meters away from it.

2 - I'm requires to be basically standing next to a toxic or disrupter (with no protection from either) to do damage.

3 - Pitiful damage, requires one to be in the MIDDLE of an orgy to be effective, with weak shields, low health and average speed.

4 - Yay! Saved up 100 energy and I don't have to touch tonsils to hurt someone!

Ember's current powers are variations of her ultimate. Why waste your energy when you can save up to 100 and deal damage at a safe distance.

 

This is a run and gun game... learn to gun and run.

 

1. You can R-click aim if you are having problem hitting a target and you dont even need to hit a target to have the dot spread. you can dump it on the floor or actually put it on a teammate.

 

2. First of all... why do you even mention a toxic? I mean, really? Really? That's what you use to make a point? Second.... dont you melee ancients who dont have a toxic cloud around them?

 

3. Can be cast on the run. Mod your Ember properly. Back when Overheat didnt let you tank, Ember was the one frame i put fast deflection on because she needs her shield back up ASAP Rocky.

 

if you are scurred of getting close to enemies with Ember then you should not be playing with Ember.

[CloudPies]

This is a run and gun game... learn to gun and run.

 

1. You can R-click aim if you are having problem hitting a target and you dont even need to hit a target to have the dot spread. you can dump it on the floor or actually put it on a teammate.

Because then it does like 1 tic of damage, pointless waste of energy.

 

2. First of all... why do you even mention a toxic? I mean, really? Really? That's what you use to make a point? Second.... dont you melee ancients who dont have a toxic cloud around them?

Because ember is suppose to be good vs infested. She is now helpless against them

3. Can be cast on the run. Mod your Ember properly. Back when Overheat didnt let you tank, Ember was the one frame i put fast deflection on because she needs her shield back up ASAP Rocky.

But why would you run in, when you can cast from afar for only 25 energy more?

if you are scurred of getting close to enemies with Ember then you should not be playing with Ember.

I'm saying she's a one trick pony. There is no point for any of her skills 1-3 because 4 outshines them all.

[Kinethia]

A Dotter doesnt requires better survivability a dotter requires high damaging dots.

One strange thing i have noticed recently when people complain about powers is this weird aversion to casting powers more than one. I really dont know where this comes from and how this conclusion is reached but... Ember has a lot of energy so if you want to stay alive.... cast more than one power at one time. She stays alive by DOTing the crap out of everything. 

 

As CloudPies said, that is only the case if the DoT has range. Hugging ancients to deal more than one DoT at once is dangerous. Hugging Grineer or corpus is downright suicidal. In an open area, high level grineer can kill me before I get close enough to do more than a few ticks of damage even with World on Fire, which is her longest range DoT. In order to be playable, Ember needs to be survivable enough to:

- Get within DoT range of the enemy

- Damage the enemy with the DoT

- Get into cover again afterwards without dying in the process

That's not always possible anymore.

 

This is a run and gun game... learn to gun and run.

 

1. You can R-click aim if you are having problem hitting a target and you dont even need to hit a target to have the dot spread. you can dump it on the floor or actually put it on a teammate.

 

2. First of all... why do you even mention a toxic? I mean, really? Really? That's what you use to make a point? Second.... dont you melee ancients who dont have a toxic cloud around them?

 

3. Can be cast on the run. Mod your Ember properly. Back when Overheat didnt let you tank, Ember was the one frame i put fast deflection on because she needs her shield back up ASAP Rocky.

 

if you are scurred of getting close to enemies with Ember then you should not be playing with Ember.

 

Ember's ult, unlike Saryn's, requires her to stay close to the enemy for the full duration to do maximum damage. That is guaranteed death at high-level play.

 

EDIT: in fact, the only DoTs for which ember can "dump it on the floor or actually put it on a teammate" are Fireblast (floor only), which only damages most enemies for a single tick, as they run through the wall, and fireball, which does far less damage than any of the other abilities and hits a tiny, TINY area. Both other DoTs are centered on ember for the entire duration, and her Ult is the only one of the four which hits a large area, although it is limited to three targets.

Edited September 8, 2013 by Kinethia

[Holynight6]

- Put Overheat back to previous DR.

- Remove Fireball entirely.

- Make Fireblast scale with stretch and make the entire area deal damage over time, not just the ring

- Fix her stats, she's not a caster and never was.

 

Then we can start talking about balance.

[Mak_Gohae]

Because then it does like 1 tic of damage, pointless waste of energy.

 

Fireball: Fixed the dot attaching to the target. Increased the damage and dot damage per sec.

 

Because ember is suppose to be good vs infested. She is now helpless against them

 

You are not supposed to be getting hit by the enemy.... nothing has changed besides how much time can you get hit by the enemy which you are not supposed to be getting hit by.

 

 

But why would you run in, when you can cast from afar for only 25 energy more?

 

Because you always have enough energy to cast the 4th ability?

And if you do, double down cause you cannot cast her 4th twice for more damage but you can add damage with her 3rd.

 

I've actually saved the pod from dying by doubling down with Fireblast.

 

 

I'm saying she's a one trick pony. There is no point for any of her skills 1-3 because 4 outshines them all.

 

This applies to most frames. Let's not turn this into some unique Ember argument.

[Kinethia]

As a note, a simple fix for fireblast would be if it actually ignited any enemy that passed through it for the entire remaining duration, dealling full damage regardless of whether they stay inside the wall or not.

 

Nerfing the damage a bit to compensate for the increased ease of use is fine. At least players might actually slot it for something other than low-level infested defense, then.

[CardboardSamurai]

It just looks like this came out of nowhere. DE you are one of the companies that actually listens to their players, so why didn't you do it this time? You could have gotten ideas of how to change Ember from the Design Council and actually make that part of the founders useful, or even just from feedback. You wouldn't have to just take something exactly, but the general idea could have been given. Now all we have is an outclassed frame who can't do what Nova can. I LOVED 91% Overheat, but if DE isn't willing to give it back then give some changes that actually makes her worthwhile.

 

Change her 3rd skill to something different than the usual. Make it kind of like Nova's M.Prime. I say buff WoF into having a longer range and more targets, and replacing her 3rd skill with one that sets the enemy on fire, and if said enemy dies then the fire spreads. The fire would do damage over time, and would kind of be like Nova's M.Prime that depends on the enemy dying. My suggestion of what she should become might be a bit off, I know, but the first paragraph of this still stands.

 

Edit: There was never anything wrong with her being a hybrid mage-tank. So what if she wasn't meant to be like that? I wasn't meant to be born, but my mom never regretted it. Mistakes can be good.

Edited September 8, 2013 by ElectricCoiteBodher

[Kinethia]

This applies to most frames. Let's not turn this into some unique Ember argument.

 

Most frames have multiple tricks, but only one or two are good. That is a very important difference. Bounce does something different than Vauban's other abilities. Super jump is also quite unique. They suck, but at least players occasionally slot them for giggles and variety. Ember's abilities all feel almost identical. It would be like Excaliber's abilities being 1 - Slash dash, 2 - Slash hop, 3 - Slash dash in a circle, 4 - Slash dash in a circle, and then everything inside it.

 

Yes, 'slash dash in a circle and then everything inside it' is basically radial javelin, but at least two of the abilities do something other than "another slash dash".

Edited September 8, 2013 by Kinethia

[GTG3000]

Maybe, the new damage system will make this all make sence.

 

Maybe, ripping away the heart of a warframe is a legit way of fixing.

 

We will never know.

 

But for now, we need Overheat back.

 

Then, we need the promised rework for broken abilities.

[CloudPies]

Mak, if we're not suppose to be getting hit, then rework the abilities so we don't have to be next to the enemies with low health, low shields and average speed. That is all. Nerf the damage reduction, sure, but put something else in for the other skills. Increased speed with WoF; guaranteed knock down with Fire Blast; etc.

This applies to most frames. Let's not turn this into some unique Ember argument.

Our problem was, it wasn't the case till the latest patch. So our feedback is: Stop with the 1 trick pony nonsense.

[Hogfather]

https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/102831-ember-98-feedback-thread/page-14#entry1193016

 

I like this idea (the agile overheat). Hopefully something like this happens. We need more diverse frames

Edited September 8, 2013 by Hogfather

[Loswaith]

Scott's Comments:

Ah Ember, after looking Ember over it was obvious she was suffering from some neglect. She had numerous under the hood bugs that would make her powers not quite right. We fixed her up and gave her a buff. One of the biggest changes for Ember players will be the change to overheat. Ember was meant to be a caster damage frame not a tank, with addition of mods and changes to the game she became one of the best tanks in the game. This was never intended and she is now back in the roll she is meant to fill. I am aware that Overheat and World on Fire is very similar in design.  This might need further rework to push these two powers further apart. Suggestions and feedback welcome.

....

No offence meant with this, but when the damage reduction got added to Overheat this made Ember a semi-tank.  Huge damage reduction will obviously make a frame more of a tank, it's the only thing it will do and its naive to think it will do something else.  While if she became better than other tank frames, that kinda means they were made significantly less tanky (or maybe need to be made more tanky), beause they got changed without consideration for Overheat in the mix.

 

Changing Ember back to a non-tank frame is going to kill the builds people have made for her (which is something that DE regularly mentions they dont want to do).  Especially with nova essentially taking Ember's old role (and doing it far better).

 

This just essentially puts Ember back in the same place she was before her last major change, in that overheat and world of fire are again essentially the exact same skill.  Overheat having damage reduction however doesnt proclude Ember from being a caster damage frame, it infact supplements the style of her powers in that they are designed for use while in the thick of battle as opposed to other caster damage frames that can do so from a protected position away from the thick of battle.

 

I could maybe understand the take that overheat was too much damage reduction (IE Ember was too tanky) and removing focus from enhancing it, but it would still make her a semi-tank frame (while using her powers), so the only conclusion is there will be little damage reduction at all.

 

I am interested to see how she will go with the new damage system however.

Edited September 8, 2013 by Loswaith